Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8601207.stm

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According to the OECD, Finnish children spend the fewest number of hours in the classroom in the developed world.

This reflects another important theme of Finnish education.

Primary and secondary schooling is combined, so the pupils don't have to change schools at age 13. They avoid a potentially disruptive transition from one school to another.

Teacher Marjaana Arovaara-Heikkinen believes keeping the same pupils in her classroom for several years also makes her job a lot easier.

''I'm like growing up with my children, I see the problems they have when they are small. And now after five years, I still see and know what has happened in their youth, what are the best things they can do. I tell them I'm like their school mother.''

Children in Finland only start main school at age seven. The idea is that before then they learn best when they're playing and by the time they finally get to school they are keen to start learning.

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Good luck implementing something like this in the US.

I don't know about holding kids out of school until age 7. Having children learning to share at young ages helps to develop parts of the prefrontal cortex of their brain which controls some of the aggressive tendencies they are born with. We might end up with an even more violent society if we further isolate children to their parents' homes at such formative years. Another reason to not like schooling to begin so late is the fact that kids can learn another language at young ages, while by adolescence it is near impossible. I do like the idea of more stability in their schooling with the same teachers over multiple years though.

I just can't see state day care being something all that popular in the US, even if it would be beneficial. As for the statement about play, that's pretty similar to the idea Alan Kay and Xerox PARC gave in a talk (one I posted here a couple of days ago) where they studied children and how they learn when the group developed the GUI operating system. There was research indicating strongly that children learn best by physical work in the early years, they gain spatial understanding later on, and finally by adolescence they can begin to think logically. I remember one of the experiments he did was to have kids of varying ages draw circles, and the young kids solutions would usually be "you go a little bit, and then turn, then go a little bit, then turn,..." as they were physically solving a system of differential equations. Older kids would think of a circle as the thing where every point is the same distance from the center, and adolescents would think of a circle as the thing that had x^2 + y^2 = r^2.

From the article MB posted

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Finland also has low levels of immigration. So when pupils start school the majority have Finnish as their native language, eliminating an obstacle that other societies often face.

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Best education and all we get is butt-ugly (but safe) cars and cheap ass furniture?

Are you thinking of Sweden?

Actually, Finns speak Finnish, English, and have somewhat of an inferiority complex with the Swedes, a language they also speak.

Every culture has its own ways to skin a cats. All that counts is that the cats gets skinned. Kids must leave HS with HS-level of education, not 8th grade or below.

And European education is about academics first, with extracurricular activities like sports a distant second if at all.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

From the article MB posted

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Which explains the raging success of American public education for native born, English speaking students.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

From the article MB posted

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"Finland also has low levels of immigration. So when pupils start school the majority have Finnish as their native language, eliminating an obstacle that other societies often face."


My kids classrooms looks like a mini United Nations.

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The system's success is built on the idea of less can be more. There is an emphasis on relaxed schools, free from political prescriptions. This combination, they believe, means that no child is left behind.

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American public education is focused too much on promoting correct attitudes and responses. Way too psychologicalized and propagandized for actual learning to occur.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

American public education is focused too much on promoting correct attitudes and responses. Way too psychologicalized and propagandized for actual learning to occur.

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If you teach to tests with objective answers, and convince yourself that relatively satisfactory results on such tests are evidence that students are learning, you end up with incurious students who (by and large) know relatively little and can't think enough to creatively solve problems.

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Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

If you teach to tests with objective answers, and convince yourself that relatively satisfactory results on such tests are evidence that students are learning, you end up with incurious students who (by and large) know relatively little and can't think enough to creatively solve problems.

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To challenge a premise of the original article, education is not something that can be measured (beyond the basics). That is, you know an educated individual when you see them. Rote memorization and drill works up to a point. After that, the ability to reason, argue persuasively, and express ideas coherently are not abilities that can be evaluated in a deep manner by standardized examination. This can be evaluated in an intensive program, which perhaps is found scattered about at the collegiate level, or perhaps outside formal programs altogether.

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

"Finland also has low levels of immigration. So when pupils start school the majority have Finnish as their native language, eliminating an obstacle that other societies often face."


My kids classrooms looks like a mini United Nations.

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They're coming for you... JACK!

Because Socialism doesn't work...oh, wait.

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

"Finland also has low levels of immigration. So when pupils start school the majority have Finnish as their native language, eliminating an obstacle that other societies often face."


My kids classrooms looks like a mini United Nations.

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A lover of America who doesn't believe in America? Say it ain't so, dipshit.

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

A lover of America who doesn't believe in America? Say it ain't so, dipshit.

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It ain't so, dipshit.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Are you thinking of Sweden?

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lolz

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-arvada...,7099823.story

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Best education and all we get is butt-ugly (but safe) cars and cheap ass furniture?

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Sweden =/ Finland.

Think:

Nokia, not Ikea

Finns are a rather unique lot, with a language not in the Indo-European family. All the ones I have met have been pretty decent people.

They gave the Russians fits during WW2

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Originally Posted by ChuckD

Because Socialism doesn't work...oh, wait.

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I think that Europe in general is going to fare pretty well compared to the US in the next 10-20 years. Not hugely confident in that assessment, due to their low birth rates, but they have some things going for them, Italy and Greece excepted. Those two countries are, and will be, in the shitter far into the future.

Characteristics of the kind of public educational system I think the US should pursue:

One that doesn't force a one-size fits all program on everyone.
One that allows for long periods of uninterrupted focus on a particular topic.
One that doesn't insist on chopping up knowledge into iron-clad, water tight "subjects."
One that allows for non-academic paths for those not interested in college, perhaps after the 9th grade or thereabouts.
One that doesn't require 9 months per year for 13 years, but much less.
One that is not built on rote memorization and drill after the basic skills are covered.
One that requires lots of deep, challenging reading.
One that has a natural way of removing those who don't want to be there.
And, yes, one that does address values/ethics/morality explicitly and, in general, character building.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

I think that Europe in general is going to fare pretty well compared to the US in the next 10-20 years. Not hugely confident in that assessment, due to their low birth rates, but they have some things going for them, Italy and Greece excepted. Those two countries are, and will be, in the shitter far into the future.

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What has Europe done with spending in the last couple of years?

hint: austerity

One that requires plenty of argumentation and debate.
One that doesn't present the official view of things (the usual draw for extremists of all stripes to get their hands on the curriculum).
One that encourages self-directed learning.

Basically, one that leads to the individual being able to conduct their own education by the time they leave.

It's not a question of resources, it's a question of pedagogy. The one that dominates American public schools is flawed, designed for an age of large assimilation of immigrants, an industrial economy, and, yes, to turn out good patriotic Americans.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

What has Europe done with spending in the last couple of years?

hint: austerity

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Indeed.

They have done the things, raising taxes and cutting expenditures, that the US and its political subdivisions have found it politically impossible to do so far.

The bloodletting in the British budget has been epic, but they actually got a solution to their problems.

Europe is also moving towards renewable energy, something that has some concrete long-term benefits.

As a whole they have loosened up their labor markets (become less socialistic) and well regulated their capital markets.

In short, they have been doing things pretty well.

Given the downward pressure on the dollar, all the direct salary comparisons that conservatives used to shove in people's faces, i.e. "look at this, our standard of living is so much better than the socialists in Europe" have evaporated.

Their farmers are still waaay uncompetitive, but even that shows some signs of change, as sustainability issues start becoming more important.

On the balance, I am fairly optimistic about Europe's lot overall.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Characteristics of the kind of public educational system I think the US should pursue:

One that doesn't force a one-size fits all program on everyone.
One that allows for long periods of uninterrupted focus on a particular topic.
One that doesn't insist on chopping up knowledge into iron-clad, water tight "subjects."
One that allows for non-academic paths for those not interested in college, perhaps after the 9th grade or thereabouts.
One that doesn't require 9 months per year for 13 years, but much less.
One that is not built on rote memorization and drill after the basic skills are covered.
One that requires lots of deep, challenging reading.
One that has a natural way of removing those who don't want to be there.
And, yes, one that does address values/ethics/morality explicitly and, in general, character building.

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A lot of those features play a big role in Montessori and Waldorf schools.

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

It ain't so, dipshit.

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:lol Gotta give props for that comeback.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Characteristics of the kind of public educational system I think the US should pursue:

One that doesn't force a one-size fits all program on everyone.
One that allows for long periods of uninterrupted focus on a particular topic.
One that doesn't insist on chopping up knowledge into iron-clad, water tight "subjects."
One that allows for non-academic paths for those not interested in college, perhaps after the 9th grade or thereabouts.
One that doesn't require 9 months per year for 13 years, but much less.
One that is not built on rote memorization and drill after the basic skills are covered.
One that requires lots of deep, challenging reading.
One that has a natural way of removing those who don't want to be there.
And, yes, one that does address values/ethics/morality explicitly and, in general, character building.

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With no data at all backing me up, I'd say the bolded parts are the most important.

The airmen I see come into the AF nowadays sometimes say they've never read a book, which I find astounding. On top of that, they don't seem to have any critical thinking. All their knowledge is one-level deep, and they don't look at the implications of "easy fixes" to see what other problems might develop. They don't see that fixing problem A with X action might lead to problems B, C and D.

Also, I think history should also teach more about culture. I think a combined history/humanities class would not only made the subject slightly more tolerable, but it might clue in kids to the reasons why certain events played out the way they did.

But wouldn't institutions want individuals with no sense of history and limited ability to reach independent conclusions which challenge the modus operandi?

Easier to program, that is.

You'd want individuals with sound judgment, self-reliance, independent streak, and decisiveness at the helm though.

Maybe.

If you wanted your design to live on, you'd create an entire civilization of blank slates...

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

You'd want individuals with sound judgment, self-reliance, independent streak, and decisiveness at the helm though.

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Sounds like what the military trains their people do to, in all honesty. Building leaders and whatnot. (Though maybe with a temperance on "indepedence streak".)

Give it time...

http://www.figma.fi/Vanhat%20tiedott...te03022011.htm

translation

record video game sales in Finland

If schools really wanted to teach students shit, they'd have them work on large collaborative projects all the time like in the real world.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Characteristics of the kind of public educational system I think the US should pursue:

One that doesn't force a one-size fits all program on everyone.
One that allows for long periods of uninterrupted focus on a particular topic.
One that doesn't insist on chopping up knowledge into iron-clad, water tight "subjects."
One that allows for non-academic paths for those not interested in college, perhaps after the 9th grade or thereabouts.
One that doesn't require 9 months per year for 13 years, but much less.
One that is not built on rote memorization and drill after the basic skills are covered.
One that requires lots of deep, challenging reading.
One that has a natural way of removing those who don't want to be there.
And, yes, one that does address values/ethics/morality explicitly and, in general, character building.

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A strong list.

The most important, and least stressed today by teachers and parents, being "lots of deep, challenging reading."

It's pathetic how little reading and, to a lesser extent, writing a vast amount of Americans do.

IMHO, if students (middle/high school) were compelled to do lots of reading, along with *accurate* reporting and impressions on what they read, there *would* be a future for all Americans in college. That's not to say a more efficient transition to trade schools isn't desperately needed.

Too many Americans show up to college having read a handful of books, if that. Furthermore, they had their hands held while doing so in the form of rhetorical questionnaires and convergent, "curriculurized" discussion.

At the time when their reading, writing, and critical thinking skills should be at least somewhat developed and coherent, most Americans are far behind the 8-ball.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Sounds like what the military trains their people do to, in all honesty. Building leaders and whatnot. (Though maybe with a temperance on "indepedence streak".)

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It's strange that when it's deemed necessary, people are allowed to learn something.

The weird thing is that we have the store of human knowledge at our fingertips, yet ignorance abounds. In terms of effort required, an education is now the least expensive to obtain in terms of time and also the cost of materials required. Think about all the great books that are in the public domain and are available for free, for starters.

Of course, what we think of as education, which is instead the selling of credentials, is the most expensive it's ever been.

"Buying credentials" is an apt way of describing the average Americans' motivation for attending college. Obviously, this poses further problems that extend beyond the range of education solely.

If Americans, or people in general, wish only to learn the least amount of information needed (while achieving satisfactory grades), then that is their prerogative, as Americans. Whether that's good for them, or Americans in general, or our system of education . .

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Originally Posted by z0sa

A strong list.

The most important, and least stressed today by teachers and parents, being "lots of deep, challenging reading."

It's pathetic how little reading and, to a lesser extent, writing a vast amount of Americans do.

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Reading is the daily grind of education. Do enough of it, widely enough, and often enough and you start to educate yourself.

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IMHO, if students (middle/high school) were compelled to do lots of reading, along with *accurate* reporting and impressions on what they read, there *would* be a future for all Americans in college. That's not to say a more efficient transition to trade schools isn't desperately needed.

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The problem is that a path to trades is seen as an insult or a foreclosure on a student's future. I mean, there are blue collar jobs that pay quite well. And nobody can be found for them. Welders - some specialties, barge pilots come to mind. Upper class attitudes abound in lower and middle class America.

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Too many Americans show up to college having read a handful of books, if that. Furthermore, they had their hands held while doing so in the form of rhetorical questionnaires and convergent, "curriculurized" discussion.

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Right. It's a dog's breakfast outside of the narrow technical training received.

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At the time when their reading, writing, and critical thinking skills should be at least somewhat developed and coherent, most Americans are far behind the 8-ball.

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Yes yes yes. American education was designed to prepare students for an industrialized economy and to generate bonds of loyalty to the state and to homogenize a heterodox population. To standardize Americans. Entirely the wrong approach in the 21st century.

There is such a bias against working with your hands in this country (well, other than performing surgery). Another bias is against challenging the status quo. So our educational system produces a bunch of white collar type college grads who don't think outside the box. Oversimplified probably.

Shit, if you want to drive a truck you can make some money. For a nation with supposedly no jobs there are jobs. What there is not is people willing to stoop so low as to take a job they deem beneath them.

(This is not to say that this holds in every city across the land. Of course, the counter is that I make a direct investment of however much in tuition and salary foregone and my best opportunity is to drive a truck? I think unemployment is a more complex matter than it is held out to be.)

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

There is such a bias against working with your hands in this country (well, other than performing surgery). Another bias is against challenging the status quo. So our educational system produces a bunch of white collar type college grads who don't think outside the box. Oversimplified probably.

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This is sad, but true.


Another trend I've noticed is a lot of folks going on to grad school who still haven't had a full time job. POTUS comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Reading is the daily grind of education. Do enough of it, widely enough, and often enough and you start to educate yourself.

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But Jersey Shore is on TV..................

And I've got to update my Facebook status..........

And there's this new game for my PS3...............

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

The problem is that a path to trades is seen as an insult or a foreclosure on a student's future. I mean, there are blue collar jobs that pay quite well. And nobody can be found for them. Welders - some specialties, barge pilots come to mind.

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Agreed. I think some of this "bias" is steeped in relatively ancient societal molds. The "poor" and less well-off were relegated to working with their hands much of their time due to financial constraints.

On the other hand, the well-off could afford, both financially and in terms of invested time, an education.

These two worlds have mixed extensively in the past century in the West, yet some vestiges of those now dated attitudes still remain.

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Upper class attitudes abound in lower and middle class America.

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This illuminates a much wider problem than simple education. This attitude of "I'm American and thus, have no limits of any sort" is consistently fed to us by our parents and the media from early childhood on and becomes greatly reinforced by our school books, teachers, and political leaders as time passes. Ultimately, we have been convinced of a great lie - that all of us actually have the education needed for success in college simply because we graduated high school.

Of course, if this lie concerning an immense amount of our tax dollars was not propagated en masse, then there might be a few more angry Americans. Or at least, Americans who feel cheated. As it is, many Americans accept "C" level simply because they think that is the limit of their intellect, when they should be better suited for college or be in a different type of learning environment altogether.

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American education was designed to prepare students for an industrialized economy and to generate bonds of loyalty to the state and to homogenize a heterodox population. To standardize Americans. Entirely the wrong approach in the 21st century.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Another trend I've noticed is a lot of folks going on to grad school who still haven't had a full time job. POTUS comes to mind.

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I don't see what the big deal is. Some people are ready to go straight to grad school and some are not. I suppose this may be a bigger issue in some fields (like business) than others (such as the sciences or the humanities).

Besides, after 4 or 5 years of undergraduate studies, most students have a general idea of what they are getting into and what they expect to get out of graduate school.

A much bigger issue is the number of freshmen who clearly aren't mature enough for university studies, but go to college because they don't know what else to do (their friends are there, their parents are forcing them etc.).

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Originally Posted by Bartleby

I don't see what the big deal is. Some people are ready to go straight to grad school and some are not. I suppose this may be a bigger issue in some fields (like business) than others (such as the sciences or the humanities).

Besides, after 4 or 5 years of undergraduate studies, most students have a general idea of what they are getting into and what they expect to get out of graduate school.

A much bigger issue is the number of freshmen who clearly aren't mature enough for university studies, but go to college because they don't know what else to do (their friends are there, their parents are forcing them etc.).

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Would you say the democratization of higher education leads to a focus on the 'useful' disciplines (ie anything that leads to a well paying profession) and a dismissal of the liberal arts, along with an overall decline in the educational standards of universities and colleges?

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Originally Posted by Bartleby

I don't see what the big deal is. Some people are ready to go straight to grad school and some are not. I suppose this may be a bigger issue in some fields (like business) than others (such as the sciences or the humanities).

Besides, after 4 or 5 years of undergraduate studies, most students have a general idea of what they are getting into and what they expect to get out of graduate school.

A much bigger issue is the number of freshmen who clearly aren't mature enough for university studies, but go to college because they don't know what else to do (their friends are there, their parents are forcing them etc.).

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I've just noticed a trend of grad students that don't know shit from Shinola.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Would you say the democratization of higher education leads to a focus on the 'useful' disciplines (ie anything that leads to a well paying profession) and a dismissal of the liberal arts, along with an overall decline in the educational standards of universities and colleges?

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Pretty much, along with a climate of anti-intellectualism and a tendency (since the 80s?) to view a college degree primarily as a commodity.

Grade inflation (which is tied to evaluations) and concerns about student enrollment/retention also play a role in the decline.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

I've just noticed a trend of grad students that don't know shit from Shinola.

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Like our first MBA POTUS?

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Originally Posted by Bartleby

Pretty much, along with a climate of anti-intellectualism and a tendency (since the 80s?) to view a college degree primarily as a commodity.

Grade inflation (which is tied to evaluations) and concerns about student enrollment/retention also play a role in the decline.

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We are uncomfortable with elitism in American culture. That large groups of people might not be eligible for a college education or able to complete one would not sit well with the general public. The problem is, perhaps, that a majority of the population, even a majority of college students, are not.

Another thing we are uncomfortable with is the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake. There must be a demonstrated value for us. Knowledge's value is what it can create, not what it illuminates.

Jefferson, the great democrat, had a decidedly undemocratic view of what a public educational system should look like in Virginia.

Man do I agree with the list that marcus posted. To add to the discussion regarding reading... It is amazing how often I am asked how I know something, I generally don't know, specifically. The only answers I have ever come up with are "I read" and "I am generally aware". I don't even have a lot of time to read either (outside of textbooks), my wife reads far more than I do.
People usually respond with "I don't have time to read" then with their next breath ask who has seen the latest "real housewives" episode.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

:lol Gotta give props for that comeback.

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:lol Me, too. And apologies to Jack for my drunk-o-surl.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

I don't know about holding kids out of school until age 7. Having children learning to share at young ages helps to develop parts of the prefrontal cortex of their brain which controls some of the aggressive tendencies they are born with. We might end up with an even more violent society if we further isolate children to their parents' homes at such formative years. Another reason to not like schooling to begin so late is the fact that kids can learn another language at young ages, while by adolescence it is near impossible. I do like the idea of more stability in their schooling with the same teachers over multiple years though.

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By 7 your too late....kids learn how to learn by preschool and kinder....the key is to get the kids into school as soon as possible, especially if they are high risk kids...getting them away from a neglectful or poverty prone situations like drugs, alcohol, and abuse would benefit these kids

I hate when pseudo-intellectuals talk about solving education problems when all they've ever done is look at the problem from the outside looking in...if Marcus or anyone else really want to see the problems in education, get a job substituting kids, volunteer at the school, donate resources, join the school board, get involved, in other words, its easy too make suggestions and sound reasonable doing it, but it's a little harder to actually be the change..

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

If schools really wanted to teach students shit, they'd have them work on large collaborative projects all the time like in the real world.

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If your talking about eliminating No Child Left Behind and TAKS I'm with you, but you know those are politically required measurement, not educational....that's kinda like blaming Unions because you gave away tax cuts you couldn't afford..

Naturally one who has been through the public schools cannot comment on the program and what they noticed.

I hate it when nut jobs who believe in bullshit 9/11 conspiracy theories question the intellectualism of anyone else.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

With no data at all backing me up, I'd say the bolded parts are the most important.

The airmen I see come into the AF nowadays sometimes say they've never read a book, which I find astounding. On top of that, they don't seem to have any critical thinking. All their knowledge is one-level deep, and they don't look at the implications of "easy fixes" to see what other problems might develop. They don't see that fixing problem A with X action might lead to problems B, C and D.

Also, I think history should also teach more about culture. I think a combined history/humanities class would not only made the subject slightly more tolerable, but it might clue in kids to the reasons why certain events played out the way they did.

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One way to streamline long-term spending and increase student access to resources is to eliminate text-books and give all the kids an IPAD with books loaded into memory...this would also increase student/teacher communication and could be used as an aid to help kids with concepts they could be struggling with...but it would take getting greedy textbook makers out of powerful political pockets and a whole lot of money up front...

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Naturally one who has been through the public schools cannot comment on the program and what they noticed.

I hate it when nut jobs who believe in bullshit 9/11 conspiracy theories question the intellectualism of anyone else.

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so you believe the 9/11 Commission? a govt. agency....nice

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Naturally one who has been through the public schools cannot comment on the program and what they noticed.

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post away then....just saying you sound like an idiot...

Is it fair to hold all kids up to the same standard?
Does PTSD/Autism/Dyslexia/alcohol and drug abuse/HDD/ADHD that teachers have to deal with daily just magically disappear in the Marcus plan like it does with Charter School lovers?

because finnish people are white.

duh.

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Originally Posted by The Reckoning

because finnish people are white.

duh.

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...and today the Finnish people have turned that education into the number one economy in the world and is leading the world in innovative technology....oh wait a minute....that's the U.S....

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

...and today the Finnish people have turned that education into the number one economy in the world and is leading the world in innovative technology....oh wait a minute....that's the U.S....

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:flag:USA! USA! USA! :flag:

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

...and today the Finnish people have turned that education into the number one economy in the world and is leading the world in innovative technology....oh wait a minute....that's the U.S....

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You have a point!

http://www.softdistrict.com/wp-conte...plishments.jpg

http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/...3g-iphone1.jpg

http://ramanathan.files.wordpress.co...el_dell_rh.jpg

http://www.novacreations.net/wp-cont...8/09/moore.jpg

Wait a minute... :lol

Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Michael Dell aren't the ones behind the innovative technology in America. For starters, you should have used these pics:

http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/f...1_alan_kay.jpg

http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwik...elbartmice.jpg

http://www.vosizneias.com/wp-content...man_rights.jpg

http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwik...ntAlliance.jpg

http://wiwiw.org/pioneers/leonard-kleinrock_std.jpg

I do agree with Gordon Moore though.

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One that doesn't force a one-size fits all program on everyone.

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You know, there are magnet schools, right? Although, I agree that college isn't for everyone and bringing back trade schools, like electrician, car shop, or plumbing would be REALLY practical....

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

If schools really wanted to teach students shit, they'd have them work on large collaborative projects all the time like in the real world.

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http://www.englishrussia.com/images/...os/part2/7.jpg

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

You know, there are magnet schools, right? Although, I agree that college isn't for everyone and bringing back trade schools, like electrician, car shop, or plumbing would be REALLY practical....

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I'd agree and I also don't think 11th or 12th grade is for everyone either.

don't forget

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...8_-_2-crop.jpg

Like him or not, like face book or not...

Ultimately, Zuckerberg is doing in the ME what Bush failed to do...establish a legitimate ME democracy...

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

don't forget

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...8_-_2-crop.jpg

Like him or not, like face book or not...

Ultimately, Zuckerberg is doing in the ME what Bush failed to do...establish a legitimate ME democracy...

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'Eh, myspace predates Facebook and is pretty much the same thing. No real technical innovation there.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

'Eh, myspace predates Facebook and is pretty much the same thing. No real technical innovation there.

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I disagree...facebook did what MySpace could not....have almost everyone sign up with their real names...

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

One way to streamline long-term spending and increase student access to resources is to eliminate text-books and give all the kids an IPAD with books loaded into memory...this would also increase student/teacher communication and could be used as an aid to help kids with concepts they could be struggling with...but it would take getting greedy textbook makers out of powerful political pockets and a whole lot of money up front...

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You would still have to pay for the electronic version of all those textbooks and other books that you load onto all those IPAD's.

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Originally Posted by ploto

You would still have to pay for the electronic version of all those textbooks and other books that you load onto all those IPAD's.

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True...but you could eliminate Libraries in most schools and turn them into technology centers...and most modern classics...hundreds are free...

and dont forget the US still has me.

you're welcome, America.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Characteristics of the kind of public educational system I think the US should pursue:

One that doesn't force a one-size fits all program on everyone.
One that allows for long periods of uninterrupted focus on a particular topic.
One that doesn't insist on chopping up knowledge into iron-clad, water tight "subjects."
One that allows for non-academic paths for those not interested in college, perhaps after the 9th grade or thereabouts.
One that doesn't require 9 months per year for 13 years, but much less.
One that is not built on rote memorization and drill after the basic skills are covered.
One that requires lots of deep, challenging reading.
One that has a natural way of removing those who don't want to be there.
And, yes, one that does address values/ethics/morality explicitly and, in general, character building.

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Pretty good list, and may I say that the final point would be pretty much achieved by the fullfilment of the others.

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

...and today the Finnish people have turned that education into the number one economy in the world and is leading the world in innovative technology....oh wait a minute....that's the U.S....

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I wouldn't make fun of the Finnish economy, certainly not from a "quality of life" point of view. They have their problems, but they also have their shit together much more than most of the other countries I know (including the US and my own country).

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

One way to streamline long-term spending and increase student access to resources is to eliminate text-books and give all the kids an IPAD with books loaded into memory...this would also increase student/teacher communication and could be used as an aid to help kids with concepts they could be struggling with...but it would take getting greedy textbook makers out of powerful political pockets and a whole lot of money up front...

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I couldn't disagree more with the "Technology will be our savior" mantra. The iPad and other technological gizmos are just tools, fancier versions of a hammer if you will. Without the correct approach to educations you end up with people hitting each over on the head with the aforementioned hammer instead of building houses, factories, machines...
As for the financial/political aspect of your solution, without reforming the education system you are merely taking the power from one group and giving it to another.

Oh, and the iPad is the worst device for what you propose.

:lol @ crediting facebook for the North African revolutions.

actually what i like about the american program is that it is generic. it gives you more time to explore all subjects and really figure out what you want to do rather than choose for you through magnet schools of what career path to take. sure, other countries might have a head start on specified education, but in my opinion happy workers are more efficient than experienced, but bored workers. i have changed my mind of what ive wanted to do atleast 10 times now (finally figured out what im doing last year). i doubt another country's system would allow me the flexibility to do so like the United States did.

just sayin, from an idealistic point of view.

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Originally Posted by The Reckoning

actually what i like about the american program is that it is generic. it gives you more time to explore all subjects and really figure out what you want to do rather than choose for you through magnet schools of what career path to take. sure, other countries might have a head start on specified education, but in my opinion happy workers are more efficient than experienced, but bored workers. i have changed my mind of what ive wanted to do atleast 10 times now (finally figured out what im doing last year). i doubt another country's system would allow me the flexibility to do so like the United States did.

just sayin, from an idealistic point of view.

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Interesting, since the prevalent opinion over here is that the US school system is much better at producing specialists, while the European schools give you a wider, more general education, which basically allows you to slowly chose your field of work (basically to do what you described in your post).

I'm no expert but it would be interesting to see who's opinion is right.

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Originally Posted by Slomo

Interesting, since the prevalent opinion over here is that the US school system is much better at producing specialists, while the European schools give you a wider, more general education, which basically allows you to slowly chose your field of work (basically to do what you described in your post).

I'm no expert but it would be interesting to see who's opinion is right.

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i really dont know why the US produces specialists so well, but as an american homer i think it has to do with some sort of national mentality.

in my opinion, what ive noticed in the US is that specialists primarily come from hobbyists, resources and a strong market.

for hobbyists, most of those guys whose pictures are listed above were building computers in their garages/dorm rooms. the dorm im staying at Univ. of Texas is the same one Dell was originally building and selling his computers out of. alot of my friends who are engineers werent pressured to do so. they just have this innate sense of wanting to know how things work...mostly taking apart gizmos and the like.

engineering students i know from korea (im picking on korea because my best friend is from there and is in chemical engineering) are leaps and bounds ahead of american ones regarding math and theorems, but it seems like they lack that innate sense of curiosity. theyre buried in books, are incredibly academically disciplined, but arent out having fun building cool stuff. for example, an electrical engineering buddy of mine built a beer pong table that lights up different colors according to how much pressure is applied to the table, so the table changes colors depending on the amount of beer in cups.

programs in the US are very selective and competitive, but theres so many different programs that people tend to jump around until finding the right one. the US offers so much in that regard. just about every tier 1 university has the resources/program to fit a specific student's interest. also, donors like to have donating wars to see who can donate the most money to have programs and buildings named after them. right now at UT, bill gates and dell are donating millions to the computer engineering and programming programs. so allowing the private sector to have a bit of influence is positive in that respect.

also, companies dedicate alot of resources to job training in the US, and many people can be in job training for up to five years before theyre given the reigns on their job description. the (relatively) strong market allows companies to do this. theres also a strong flow of information between jobs and job prospects. many people choose to specialize in a field simply because its in high demand.

i could go on and on, but ive typed way too much, and im getting pretty biased :lol.

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

True...but you could eliminate Libraries in most schools and turn them into technology centers...

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Most high school libraries are already primarily technology centers with so much available through databases and online journals- which by the way you also have to pay for, as well. But never tell a librarian, you can totally get rid of a library because they offer a lot more than just books on a shelf. If that is all you get from yours, then your school is doing a poor job.

Technology replacing print does not fix the problem with schools. It is the entire approach that needs evaluation.

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Originally Posted by The Reckoning

i really dont know why the US produces specialists so well, but as an american homer i think it has to do with some sort of national mentality.

in my opinion, what ive noticed in the US is that specialists primarily come from hobbyists, resources and a strong market.

for hobbyists, most of those guys whose pictures are listed above were building computers in their garages/dorm rooms. the dorm im staying at Univ. of Texas is the same one Dell was originally building and selling his computers out of. alot of my friends who are engineers werent pressured to do so. they just have this innate sense of wanting to know how things work...mostly taking apart gizmos and the like.

engineering students i know from korea (im picking on korea because my best friend is from there and is in chemical engineering) are leaps and bounds ahead of american ones regarding math and theorems, but it seems like they lack that innate sense of curiosity. theyre buried in books, are incredibly academically disciplined, but arent out having fun building cool stuff. for example, an electrical engineering buddy of mine built a beer pong table that lights up different colors according to how much pressure is applied to the table, so the table changes colors depending on the amount of beer in cups.

programs in the US are very selective and competitive, but theres so many different programs that people tend to jump around until finding the right one. the US offers so much in that regard. just about every tier 1 university has the resources/program to fit a specific student's interest. also, donors like to have donating wars to see who can donate the most money to have programs and buildings named after them. right now at UT, bill gates and dell are donating millions to the computer engineering and programming programs. so allowing the private sector to have a bit of influence is positive in that respect.

also, companies dedicate alot of resources to job training in the US, and many people can be in job training for up to five years before theyre given the reigns on their job description. the (relatively) strong market allows companies to do this. theres also a strong flow of information between jobs and job prospects. many people choose to specialize in a field simply because its in high demand.

i could go on and on, but ive typed way too much, and im getting pretty biased :lol.

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In a way you're confirming the impression we have of the US education system. I never thought of the "hobbyist" angle, but it's interesting especially since there are more extracurricular activities in US high schools, are better organized and at a higher level than in Europe (although some EU systems are starting to integrate the two philosophy quite successfully).
That is also, in my opinion, the explanation of your observation about your Korean friend. Their knowledge is wider and more theoretical, while US programs are more hands on and focused.

Again no expert here just writing what my perception of the differences is (correct or not), having worked with quite a few engineers from different parts of the world.

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Originally Posted by Slomo

I wouldn't make fun of the Finnish economy, certainly not from a "quality of life" point of view. They have their problems, but they also have their shit together much more than most of the other countries I know (including the US and my own country).

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You and I both know that although its a very fluid relationship, countries such as Finland benefit from NATO by not having to pump all their cash into national security...this alone is responsible for the standard of living of many Euro countries surpassing those in the U.S....

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I couldn't disagree more with the "Technology will be our savior" mantra. The iPad and other technological gizmos are just tools, fancier versions of a hammer if you will. Without the correct approach to educations you end up with people hitting each over on the head with the aforementioned hammer instead of building houses, factories, machines...

Oh, and the iPad is the worst device for what you propose.

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Doesn't have to be an IPAD, but an IPAD type clone made for schools...and I am not saying that technology is a savior to the problems in public schools but kids do love the reinforcement and support that technology supplies plus it helps to cut down on inattention in the classroom because kids today are so technologically oriented by TV and computers...its very difficult for teachers to compete....so why try?

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As for the financial/political aspect of your solution, without reforming the education system you are merely taking the power from one group and giving it to another.

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I agree, financial reform is needed, I would especially look at gambling profits in TX, but we either improve our schools or we build more prisons.....

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Originally Posted by Slomo

:lol @ crediting facebook for the North African revolutions.

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...not just Facebook, but all social networking....

Facebook is just at the forefront...

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Originally Posted by ploto

Most high school libraries are already primarily technology centers with so much available through databases and online journals- which by the way you also have to pay for, as well. But never tell a librarian, you can totally get rid of a library because they offer a lot more than just books on a shelf. If that is all you get from yours, then your school is doing a poor job.

Technology replacing print does not fix the problem with schools. It is the entire approach that needs evaluation.

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You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote or you are intentionally representing it....my point was that it would be a very positive move forward to give kids portable computers to use in their education...not that it alone would transform low performing schools...and I agree Librarians could become next to extinct..

....also, schools hold a virtual marketing strong-hold that could potentially rake in billions to school districts and tax relief for taxpayers...why not allow advertising on campuses and have companies supply technology and pay for facilities like fast food dumps at schools.. can't be any worse than what kids eat today....lets not kid ourselves...

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

...not just Facebook, but all social networking....

Facebook is just at the forefront...

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I would say that the ease of access to alternative opinions/POVs provided by the internet is to be credited. But since social networking is part of the internet I can agree with the above.

While I agree to the use of modern tools in education (iPads, computers, IT gadgets...), they are mere tools in service of a system. The tools alone will not give you a better product.

The EU/US/NATO debate is too complicated to tackle in this thread I will offer just two comments to your reply:
- Your point, While true (to a large extent) in the past, has lost a lot of its validity in recent years.
- Since Finland is not a NATO member state the point is even less pertinent to this debate. Finland does profit from the stability of the region, which is certainly in part due to NATO, but that fact doesn't directly help with their defense budget.

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

...and I agree Librarians could become next to extinct..

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You missed my point. This will not happn because librarians do much more than you seem to realize.

The ideal school is a library, but I digress.

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Originally Posted by ploto

You missed my point. This will not happn because librarians do much more than you seem to realize.

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Most of which can be done by a para-professional, but maybe the librarians job will just change to being more of a technical facilitator and resource specialists, such as teaching kids how to do research on the internet...that's what I see happening...

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

The ideal school is a library, but I digress.

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Kids don't read enough books. Reading is important even in standardized testing because the number one reason kids miss questions is because they didn't read the problem...that said, I have a problem with those that say that all reading should be done in schools and its up to teachers to teach kids to appreciate reading...the parent that allows their kid to play video games all weekend or watch TV is just as responsible for their kids low reading grade...crazy laws by politicians pass laws like NCLB which dictate which kids books can or can't read is also responsible.....TX state education board which dictates that creationism and religion be thought right alongside evolution and philosophy is also responsible for the dumbing down of our kids....society which places so much empathizes on sports, instant gratification, and letting the TV do the thinking for you, such as FAUX News, are also responsible..

We could play this game all day, but my point is that it is too easy to point fingers and say, look over here....here's the problem....it's the evil Unionized, socialized Obama educational system! No it's not.... the problems are all around you...

Kids this days read and write more than any generation before them...

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Originally Posted by velik_m

Kids this days read and write more than any generation before them...

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Not in my country comrade!

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

Not in my country comrade!

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Sure they do, you just refuse to see it, because it doesn't conform with your perception of kids going on the wrong path. Kids are subject to the same instincts every generation before them was. They used to play outside with each other, parents locked them up and now they connected online and they play online with each other. And they have the same desire to express themselves as those before them did, and thanks to technology, they have more than enough avenues to do so (more than we had, let alone those before us).

Instead of trying to force the learning patterns on them, we should discover the ones they already use and enhance them. If people wouldn't be so concerned with teaching them "the right way" (whatever that means) they could actually find time to teach this kids some stuff. It's not like the kids need to be motivated to learn, nature took care of that problem.

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

Most of which can be done by a para-professional, but maybe the librarians job will just change to being more of a technical facilitator and resource specialists, such as teaching kids how to do research on the internet...that's what I see happening...

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It is obvious you have no idea what an actual professional librarian does if you think it can be done by a paraprofessional.

Librarians already teach students how to do research, albeit the internet is not the best option.

im pretty sure i read more on a per daily basis than anyone before.


but...

im definitely more retarded because i have to read yalls takes.

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

Most of which can be done by a para-professional, but maybe the librarians job will just change to being more of a technical facilitator and resource specialists, such as teaching kids how to do research on the internet...that's what I see happening...

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LOL

I'm going to point Jekka to this post. This is going to be great to watch her read it.

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

Most of which can be done by a para-professional, but maybe the librarians job will just change to being more of a technical facilitator and resource specialists, such as teaching kids how to do research on the internet...that's what I see happening...

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Seriously? Do you really think that librarians are just a bunch of women who run around in pencil skirts and direct people to the correct Dewey Decimal numbers? Among my many duties as an academic librarian, I -

- Research book and media materials as the only person providing college development for a 4-year college (ie I buy everything that the college library needs to support the academic programs the college offers)
- Provide bibliographic instruction that includes lecturing on search algorithms, teaching Boolean logic, and researching resources for class-specific teaching
- Catalog materials from scratch using the AACRII and OCLC MARC guidelines, a few of which may be found here: http://www.oclc.org/bibformats/default.htm
- Provide adequate preservation administration and conservation for the school's special collections, this includes being able to recommend appropriate environmental and chemical controls for the physical materials in the collection, which includes newsprint and other papers with significant amounts of lignans pre-1900.

And you think a paraprofessional could do all of this and be compensated appropriately as such? I don't even do any of the coding and programming that a lot of librarians do behind the scenes of the catalog that help make things searchable.

The job of a librarian to help people find stuff doesn't just happen on the surface at the reference desk with a patron's request - we also make things accessible by pioneering and adapting new methods of user accessibility through authorized subject selection, tagging, and cloud computing.

Librarians also operate outside of a catalog of institutional materials - a huge percentage of librarys' yearly budgets go toward database access. Those database companies employ librarians who understand accessibility issues and work to develop proxy settings and capabilities to work alongside and within institutional catalogs.

You really think we're all glorified paraprofessionals? There is a reason most librarians are required to have a masters. Like nurses and teachers who also operate in fields traditionally staffed by women, we are underpaid and underappreciated for what we do.

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Originally Posted by Jekka

Seriously? Do you really think that librarians are just a bunch of women who run around in pencil skirts and direct people to the correct Dewey Decimal numbers?

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and wear big glasses and have their hair up in buns

if you would take the bun down, wear contacts and unbutton the top two buttons on the blouse, maybe you would be appreciated more.

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Originally Posted by Blake

and wear big glasses and have their hair up in buns

if you would take the bun down, wear contacts and unbutton the top two buttons on the blouse, maybe you would be appreciated more.

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:lol I was waiting for the sexist joke... didn't have to wait long.