Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

What has Europe done with spending in the last couple of years?

hint: austerity

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Indeed.

They have done the things, raising taxes and cutting expenditures, that the US and its political subdivisions have found it politically impossible to do so far.

The bloodletting in the British budget has been epic, but they actually got a solution to their problems.

Europe is also moving towards renewable energy, something that has some concrete long-term benefits.

As a whole they have loosened up their labor markets (become less socialistic) and well regulated their capital markets.

In short, they have been doing things pretty well.

Given the downward pressure on the dollar, all the direct salary comparisons that conservatives used to shove in people's faces, i.e. "look at this, our standard of living is so much better than the socialists in Europe" have evaporated.

Their farmers are still waaay uncompetitive, but even that shows some signs of change, as sustainability issues start becoming more important.

On the balance, I am fairly optimistic about Europe's lot overall.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Characteristics of the kind of public educational system I think the US should pursue:

One that doesn't force a one-size fits all program on everyone.
One that allows for long periods of uninterrupted focus on a particular topic.
One that doesn't insist on chopping up knowledge into iron-clad, water tight "subjects."
One that allows for non-academic paths for those not interested in college, perhaps after the 9th grade or thereabouts.
One that doesn't require 9 months per year for 13 years, but much less.
One that is not built on rote memorization and drill after the basic skills are covered.
One that requires lots of deep, challenging reading.
One that has a natural way of removing those who don't want to be there.
And, yes, one that does address values/ethics/morality explicitly and, in general, character building.

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A lot of those features play a big role in Montessori and Waldorf schools.

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

It ain't so, dipshit.

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:lol Gotta give props for that comeback.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Characteristics of the kind of public educational system I think the US should pursue:

One that doesn't force a one-size fits all program on everyone.
One that allows for long periods of uninterrupted focus on a particular topic.
One that doesn't insist on chopping up knowledge into iron-clad, water tight "subjects."
One that allows for non-academic paths for those not interested in college, perhaps after the 9th grade or thereabouts.
One that doesn't require 9 months per year for 13 years, but much less.
One that is not built on rote memorization and drill after the basic skills are covered.
One that requires lots of deep, challenging reading.
One that has a natural way of removing those who don't want to be there.
And, yes, one that does address values/ethics/morality explicitly and, in general, character building.

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With no data at all backing me up, I'd say the bolded parts are the most important.

The airmen I see come into the AF nowadays sometimes say they've never read a book, which I find astounding. On top of that, they don't seem to have any critical thinking. All their knowledge is one-level deep, and they don't look at the implications of "easy fixes" to see what other problems might develop. They don't see that fixing problem A with X action might lead to problems B, C and D.

Also, I think history should also teach more about culture. I think a combined history/humanities class would not only made the subject slightly more tolerable, but it might clue in kids to the reasons why certain events played out the way they did.

But wouldn't institutions want individuals with no sense of history and limited ability to reach independent conclusions which challenge the modus operandi?

Easier to program, that is.

You'd want individuals with sound judgment, self-reliance, independent streak, and decisiveness at the helm though.

Maybe.

If you wanted your design to live on, you'd create an entire civilization of blank slates...

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

You'd want individuals with sound judgment, self-reliance, independent streak, and decisiveness at the helm though.

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Sounds like what the military trains their people do to, in all honesty. Building leaders and whatnot. (Though maybe with a temperance on "indepedence streak".)

Give it time...

http://www.figma.fi/Vanhat%20tiedott...te03022011.htm

translation

record video game sales in Finland

If schools really wanted to teach students shit, they'd have them work on large collaborative projects all the time like in the real world.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Characteristics of the kind of public educational system I think the US should pursue:

One that doesn't force a one-size fits all program on everyone.
One that allows for long periods of uninterrupted focus on a particular topic.
One that doesn't insist on chopping up knowledge into iron-clad, water tight "subjects."
One that allows for non-academic paths for those not interested in college, perhaps after the 9th grade or thereabouts.
One that doesn't require 9 months per year for 13 years, but much less.
One that is not built on rote memorization and drill after the basic skills are covered.
One that requires lots of deep, challenging reading.
One that has a natural way of removing those who don't want to be there.
And, yes, one that does address values/ethics/morality explicitly and, in general, character building.

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A strong list.

The most important, and least stressed today by teachers and parents, being "lots of deep, challenging reading."

It's pathetic how little reading and, to a lesser extent, writing a vast amount of Americans do.

IMHO, if students (middle/high school) were compelled to do lots of reading, along with *accurate* reporting and impressions on what they read, there *would* be a future for all Americans in college. That's not to say a more efficient transition to trade schools isn't desperately needed.

Too many Americans show up to college having read a handful of books, if that. Furthermore, they had their hands held while doing so in the form of rhetorical questionnaires and convergent, "curriculurized" discussion.

At the time when their reading, writing, and critical thinking skills should be at least somewhat developed and coherent, most Americans are far behind the 8-ball.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Sounds like what the military trains their people do to, in all honesty. Building leaders and whatnot. (Though maybe with a temperance on "indepedence streak".)

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It's strange that when it's deemed necessary, people are allowed to learn something.

The weird thing is that we have the store of human knowledge at our fingertips, yet ignorance abounds. In terms of effort required, an education is now the least expensive to obtain in terms of time and also the cost of materials required. Think about all the great books that are in the public domain and are available for free, for starters.

Of course, what we think of as education, which is instead the selling of credentials, is the most expensive it's ever been.

"Buying credentials" is an apt way of describing the average Americans' motivation for attending college. Obviously, this poses further problems that extend beyond the range of education solely.

If Americans, or people in general, wish only to learn the least amount of information needed (while achieving satisfactory grades), then that is their prerogative, as Americans. Whether that's good for them, or Americans in general, or our system of education . .

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Originally Posted by z0sa

A strong list.

The most important, and least stressed today by teachers and parents, being "lots of deep, challenging reading."

It's pathetic how little reading and, to a lesser extent, writing a vast amount of Americans do.

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Reading is the daily grind of education. Do enough of it, widely enough, and often enough and you start to educate yourself.

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IMHO, if students (middle/high school) were compelled to do lots of reading, along with *accurate* reporting and impressions on what they read, there *would* be a future for all Americans in college. That's not to say a more efficient transition to trade schools isn't desperately needed.

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The problem is that a path to trades is seen as an insult or a foreclosure on a student's future. I mean, there are blue collar jobs that pay quite well. And nobody can be found for them. Welders - some specialties, barge pilots come to mind. Upper class attitudes abound in lower and middle class America.

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Too many Americans show up to college having read a handful of books, if that. Furthermore, they had their hands held while doing so in the form of rhetorical questionnaires and convergent, "curriculurized" discussion.

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Right. It's a dog's breakfast outside of the narrow technical training received.

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At the time when their reading, writing, and critical thinking skills should be at least somewhat developed and coherent, most Americans are far behind the 8-ball.

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Yes yes yes. American education was designed to prepare students for an industrialized economy and to generate bonds of loyalty to the state and to homogenize a heterodox population. To standardize Americans. Entirely the wrong approach in the 21st century.

There is such a bias against working with your hands in this country (well, other than performing surgery). Another bias is against challenging the status quo. So our educational system produces a bunch of white collar type college grads who don't think outside the box. Oversimplified probably.

Shit, if you want to drive a truck you can make some money. For a nation with supposedly no jobs there are jobs. What there is not is people willing to stoop so low as to take a job they deem beneath them.

(This is not to say that this holds in every city across the land. Of course, the counter is that I make a direct investment of however much in tuition and salary foregone and my best opportunity is to drive a truck? I think unemployment is a more complex matter than it is held out to be.)

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

There is such a bias against working with your hands in this country (well, other than performing surgery). Another bias is against challenging the status quo. So our educational system produces a bunch of white collar type college grads who don't think outside the box. Oversimplified probably.

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This is sad, but true.


Another trend I've noticed is a lot of folks going on to grad school who still haven't had a full time job. POTUS comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Reading is the daily grind of education. Do enough of it, widely enough, and often enough and you start to educate yourself.

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But Jersey Shore is on TV..................

And I've got to update my Facebook status..........

And there's this new game for my PS3...............

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

The problem is that a path to trades is seen as an insult or a foreclosure on a student's future. I mean, there are blue collar jobs that pay quite well. And nobody can be found for them. Welders - some specialties, barge pilots come to mind.

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Agreed. I think some of this "bias" is steeped in relatively ancient societal molds. The "poor" and less well-off were relegated to working with their hands much of their time due to financial constraints.

On the other hand, the well-off could afford, both financially and in terms of invested time, an education.

These two worlds have mixed extensively in the past century in the West, yet some vestiges of those now dated attitudes still remain.

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Upper class attitudes abound in lower and middle class America.

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This illuminates a much wider problem than simple education. This attitude of "I'm American and thus, have no limits of any sort" is consistently fed to us by our parents and the media from early childhood on and becomes greatly reinforced by our school books, teachers, and political leaders as time passes. Ultimately, we have been convinced of a great lie - that all of us actually have the education needed for success in college simply because we graduated high school.

Of course, if this lie concerning an immense amount of our tax dollars was not propagated en masse, then there might be a few more angry Americans. Or at least, Americans who feel cheated. As it is, many Americans accept "C" level simply because they think that is the limit of their intellect, when they should be better suited for college or be in a different type of learning environment altogether.

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American education was designed to prepare students for an industrialized economy and to generate bonds of loyalty to the state and to homogenize a heterodox population. To standardize Americans. Entirely the wrong approach in the 21st century.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Another trend I've noticed is a lot of folks going on to grad school who still haven't had a full time job. POTUS comes to mind.

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I don't see what the big deal is. Some people are ready to go straight to grad school and some are not. I suppose this may be a bigger issue in some fields (like business) than others (such as the sciences or the humanities).

Besides, after 4 or 5 years of undergraduate studies, most students have a general idea of what they are getting into and what they expect to get out of graduate school.

A much bigger issue is the number of freshmen who clearly aren't mature enough for university studies, but go to college because they don't know what else to do (their friends are there, their parents are forcing them etc.).

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Originally Posted by Bartleby

I don't see what the big deal is. Some people are ready to go straight to grad school and some are not. I suppose this may be a bigger issue in some fields (like business) than others (such as the sciences or the humanities).

Besides, after 4 or 5 years of undergraduate studies, most students have a general idea of what they are getting into and what they expect to get out of graduate school.

A much bigger issue is the number of freshmen who clearly aren't mature enough for university studies, but go to college because they don't know what else to do (their friends are there, their parents are forcing them etc.).

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Would you say the democratization of higher education leads to a focus on the 'useful' disciplines (ie anything that leads to a well paying profession) and a dismissal of the liberal arts, along with an overall decline in the educational standards of universities and colleges?

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Originally Posted by Bartleby

I don't see what the big deal is. Some people are ready to go straight to grad school and some are not. I suppose this may be a bigger issue in some fields (like business) than others (such as the sciences or the humanities).

Besides, after 4 or 5 years of undergraduate studies, most students have a general idea of what they are getting into and what they expect to get out of graduate school.

A much bigger issue is the number of freshmen who clearly aren't mature enough for university studies, but go to college because they don't know what else to do (their friends are there, their parents are forcing them etc.).

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I've just noticed a trend of grad students that don't know shit from Shinola.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Would you say the democratization of higher education leads to a focus on the 'useful' disciplines (ie anything that leads to a well paying profession) and a dismissal of the liberal arts, along with an overall decline in the educational standards of universities and colleges?

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Pretty much, along with a climate of anti-intellectualism and a tendency (since the 80s?) to view a college degree primarily as a commodity.

Grade inflation (which is tied to evaluations) and concerns about student enrollment/retention also play a role in the decline.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

I've just noticed a trend of grad students that don't know shit from Shinola.

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Like our first MBA POTUS?