Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

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Originally Posted by Bartleby

Pretty much, along with a climate of anti-intellectualism and a tendency (since the 80s?) to view a college degree primarily as a commodity.

Grade inflation (which is tied to evaluations) and concerns about student enrollment/retention also play a role in the decline.

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We are uncomfortable with elitism in American culture. That large groups of people might not be eligible for a college education or able to complete one would not sit well with the general public. The problem is, perhaps, that a majority of the population, even a majority of college students, are not.

Another thing we are uncomfortable with is the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake. There must be a demonstrated value for us. Knowledge's value is what it can create, not what it illuminates.

Jefferson, the great democrat, had a decidedly undemocratic view of what a public educational system should look like in Virginia.

Man do I agree with the list that marcus posted. To add to the discussion regarding reading... It is amazing how often I am asked how I know something, I generally don't know, specifically. The only answers I have ever come up with are "I read" and "I am generally aware". I don't even have a lot of time to read either (outside of textbooks), my wife reads far more than I do.
People usually respond with "I don't have time to read" then with their next breath ask who has seen the latest "real housewives" episode.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

:lol Gotta give props for that comeback.

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:lol Me, too. And apologies to Jack for my drunk-o-surl.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

I don't know about holding kids out of school until age 7. Having children learning to share at young ages helps to develop parts of the prefrontal cortex of their brain which controls some of the aggressive tendencies they are born with. We might end up with an even more violent society if we further isolate children to their parents' homes at such formative years. Another reason to not like schooling to begin so late is the fact that kids can learn another language at young ages, while by adolescence it is near impossible. I do like the idea of more stability in their schooling with the same teachers over multiple years though.

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By 7 your too late....kids learn how to learn by preschool and kinder....the key is to get the kids into school as soon as possible, especially if they are high risk kids...getting them away from a neglectful or poverty prone situations like drugs, alcohol, and abuse would benefit these kids

I hate when pseudo-intellectuals talk about solving education problems when all they've ever done is look at the problem from the outside looking in...if Marcus or anyone else really want to see the problems in education, get a job substituting kids, volunteer at the school, donate resources, join the school board, get involved, in other words, its easy too make suggestions and sound reasonable doing it, but it's a little harder to actually be the change..

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

If schools really wanted to teach students shit, they'd have them work on large collaborative projects all the time like in the real world.

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If your talking about eliminating No Child Left Behind and TAKS I'm with you, but you know those are politically required measurement, not educational....that's kinda like blaming Unions because you gave away tax cuts you couldn't afford..

Naturally one who has been through the public schools cannot comment on the program and what they noticed.

I hate it when nut jobs who believe in bullshit 9/11 conspiracy theories question the intellectualism of anyone else.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

With no data at all backing me up, I'd say the bolded parts are the most important.

The airmen I see come into the AF nowadays sometimes say they've never read a book, which I find astounding. On top of that, they don't seem to have any critical thinking. All their knowledge is one-level deep, and they don't look at the implications of "easy fixes" to see what other problems might develop. They don't see that fixing problem A with X action might lead to problems B, C and D.

Also, I think history should also teach more about culture. I think a combined history/humanities class would not only made the subject slightly more tolerable, but it might clue in kids to the reasons why certain events played out the way they did.

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One way to streamline long-term spending and increase student access to resources is to eliminate text-books and give all the kids an IPAD with books loaded into memory...this would also increase student/teacher communication and could be used as an aid to help kids with concepts they could be struggling with...but it would take getting greedy textbook makers out of powerful political pockets and a whole lot of money up front...

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Naturally one who has been through the public schools cannot comment on the program and what they noticed.

I hate it when nut jobs who believe in bullshit 9/11 conspiracy theories question the intellectualism of anyone else.

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so you believe the 9/11 Commission? a govt. agency....nice

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Naturally one who has been through the public schools cannot comment on the program and what they noticed.

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post away then....just saying you sound like an idiot...

Is it fair to hold all kids up to the same standard?
Does PTSD/Autism/Dyslexia/alcohol and drug abuse/HDD/ADHD that teachers have to deal with daily just magically disappear in the Marcus plan like it does with Charter School lovers?

because finnish people are white.

duh.

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Originally Posted by The Reckoning

because finnish people are white.

duh.

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...and today the Finnish people have turned that education into the number one economy in the world and is leading the world in innovative technology....oh wait a minute....that's the U.S....

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

...and today the Finnish people have turned that education into the number one economy in the world and is leading the world in innovative technology....oh wait a minute....that's the U.S....

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:flag:USA! USA! USA! :flag:

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

...and today the Finnish people have turned that education into the number one economy in the world and is leading the world in innovative technology....oh wait a minute....that's the U.S....

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You have a point!

http://www.softdistrict.com/wp-conte...plishments.jpg

http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/...3g-iphone1.jpg

http://ramanathan.files.wordpress.co...el_dell_rh.jpg

http://www.novacreations.net/wp-cont...8/09/moore.jpg

Wait a minute... :lol

Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Michael Dell aren't the ones behind the innovative technology in America. For starters, you should have used these pics:

http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/f...1_alan_kay.jpg

http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwik...elbartmice.jpg

http://www.vosizneias.com/wp-content...man_rights.jpg

http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwik...ntAlliance.jpg

http://wiwiw.org/pioneers/leonard-kleinrock_std.jpg

I do agree with Gordon Moore though.

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One that doesn't force a one-size fits all program on everyone.

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You know, there are magnet schools, right? Although, I agree that college isn't for everyone and bringing back trade schools, like electrician, car shop, or plumbing would be REALLY practical....

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

If schools really wanted to teach students shit, they'd have them work on large collaborative projects all the time like in the real world.

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http://www.englishrussia.com/images/...os/part2/7.jpg

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

You know, there are magnet schools, right? Although, I agree that college isn't for everyone and bringing back trade schools, like electrician, car shop, or plumbing would be REALLY practical....

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I'd agree and I also don't think 11th or 12th grade is for everyone either.

don't forget

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...8_-_2-crop.jpg

Like him or not, like face book or not...

Ultimately, Zuckerberg is doing in the ME what Bush failed to do...establish a legitimate ME democracy...

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

don't forget

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...8_-_2-crop.jpg

Like him or not, like face book or not...

Ultimately, Zuckerberg is doing in the ME what Bush failed to do...establish a legitimate ME democracy...

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'Eh, myspace predates Facebook and is pretty much the same thing. No real technical innovation there.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

'Eh, myspace predates Facebook and is pretty much the same thing. No real technical innovation there.

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I disagree...facebook did what MySpace could not....have almost everyone sign up with their real names...

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

One way to streamline long-term spending and increase student access to resources is to eliminate text-books and give all the kids an IPAD with books loaded into memory...this would also increase student/teacher communication and could be used as an aid to help kids with concepts they could be struggling with...but it would take getting greedy textbook makers out of powerful political pockets and a whole lot of money up front...

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You would still have to pay for the electronic version of all those textbooks and other books that you load onto all those IPAD's.

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Originally Posted by ploto

You would still have to pay for the electronic version of all those textbooks and other books that you load onto all those IPAD's.

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True...but you could eliminate Libraries in most schools and turn them into technology centers...and most modern classics...hundreds are free...

and dont forget the US still has me.

you're welcome, America.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Characteristics of the kind of public educational system I think the US should pursue:

One that doesn't force a one-size fits all program on everyone.
One that allows for long periods of uninterrupted focus on a particular topic.
One that doesn't insist on chopping up knowledge into iron-clad, water tight "subjects."
One that allows for non-academic paths for those not interested in college, perhaps after the 9th grade or thereabouts.
One that doesn't require 9 months per year for 13 years, but much less.
One that is not built on rote memorization and drill after the basic skills are covered.
One that requires lots of deep, challenging reading.
One that has a natural way of removing those who don't want to be there.
And, yes, one that does address values/ethics/morality explicitly and, in general, character building.

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Pretty good list, and may I say that the final point would be pretty much achieved by the fullfilment of the others.

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

...and today the Finnish people have turned that education into the number one economy in the world and is leading the world in innovative technology....oh wait a minute....that's the U.S....

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I wouldn't make fun of the Finnish economy, certainly not from a "quality of life" point of view. They have their problems, but they also have their shit together much more than most of the other countries I know (including the US and my own country).

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

One way to streamline long-term spending and increase student access to resources is to eliminate text-books and give all the kids an IPAD with books loaded into memory...this would also increase student/teacher communication and could be used as an aid to help kids with concepts they could be struggling with...but it would take getting greedy textbook makers out of powerful political pockets and a whole lot of money up front...

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I couldn't disagree more with the "Technology will be our savior" mantra. The iPad and other technological gizmos are just tools, fancier versions of a hammer if you will. Without the correct approach to educations you end up with people hitting each over on the head with the aforementioned hammer instead of building houses, factories, machines...
As for the financial/political aspect of your solution, without reforming the education system you are merely taking the power from one group and giving it to another.

Oh, and the iPad is the worst device for what you propose.

:lol @ crediting facebook for the North African revolutions.