Why do Finland's schools get the best results?

actually what i like about the american program is that it is generic. it gives you more time to explore all subjects and really figure out what you want to do rather than choose for you through magnet schools of what career path to take. sure, other countries might have a head start on specified education, but in my opinion happy workers are more efficient than experienced, but bored workers. i have changed my mind of what ive wanted to do atleast 10 times now (finally figured out what im doing last year). i doubt another country's system would allow me the flexibility to do so like the United States did.

just sayin, from an idealistic point of view.

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Originally Posted by The Reckoning

actually what i like about the american program is that it is generic. it gives you more time to explore all subjects and really figure out what you want to do rather than choose for you through magnet schools of what career path to take. sure, other countries might have a head start on specified education, but in my opinion happy workers are more efficient than experienced, but bored workers. i have changed my mind of what ive wanted to do atleast 10 times now (finally figured out what im doing last year). i doubt another country's system would allow me the flexibility to do so like the United States did.

just sayin, from an idealistic point of view.

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Interesting, since the prevalent opinion over here is that the US school system is much better at producing specialists, while the European schools give you a wider, more general education, which basically allows you to slowly chose your field of work (basically to do what you described in your post).

I'm no expert but it would be interesting to see who's opinion is right.

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Originally Posted by Slomo

Interesting, since the prevalent opinion over here is that the US school system is much better at producing specialists, while the European schools give you a wider, more general education, which basically allows you to slowly chose your field of work (basically to do what you described in your post).

I'm no expert but it would be interesting to see who's opinion is right.

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i really dont know why the US produces specialists so well, but as an american homer i think it has to do with some sort of national mentality.

in my opinion, what ive noticed in the US is that specialists primarily come from hobbyists, resources and a strong market.

for hobbyists, most of those guys whose pictures are listed above were building computers in their garages/dorm rooms. the dorm im staying at Univ. of Texas is the same one Dell was originally building and selling his computers out of. alot of my friends who are engineers werent pressured to do so. they just have this innate sense of wanting to know how things work...mostly taking apart gizmos and the like.

engineering students i know from korea (im picking on korea because my best friend is from there and is in chemical engineering) are leaps and bounds ahead of american ones regarding math and theorems, but it seems like they lack that innate sense of curiosity. theyre buried in books, are incredibly academically disciplined, but arent out having fun building cool stuff. for example, an electrical engineering buddy of mine built a beer pong table that lights up different colors according to how much pressure is applied to the table, so the table changes colors depending on the amount of beer in cups.

programs in the US are very selective and competitive, but theres so many different programs that people tend to jump around until finding the right one. the US offers so much in that regard. just about every tier 1 university has the resources/program to fit a specific student's interest. also, donors like to have donating wars to see who can donate the most money to have programs and buildings named after them. right now at UT, bill gates and dell are donating millions to the computer engineering and programming programs. so allowing the private sector to have a bit of influence is positive in that respect.

also, companies dedicate alot of resources to job training in the US, and many people can be in job training for up to five years before theyre given the reigns on their job description. the (relatively) strong market allows companies to do this. theres also a strong flow of information between jobs and job prospects. many people choose to specialize in a field simply because its in high demand.

i could go on and on, but ive typed way too much, and im getting pretty biased :lol.

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

True...but you could eliminate Libraries in most schools and turn them into technology centers...

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Most high school libraries are already primarily technology centers with so much available through databases and online journals- which by the way you also have to pay for, as well. But never tell a librarian, you can totally get rid of a library because they offer a lot more than just books on a shelf. If that is all you get from yours, then your school is doing a poor job.

Technology replacing print does not fix the problem with schools. It is the entire approach that needs evaluation.

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Originally Posted by The Reckoning

i really dont know why the US produces specialists so well, but as an american homer i think it has to do with some sort of national mentality.

in my opinion, what ive noticed in the US is that specialists primarily come from hobbyists, resources and a strong market.

for hobbyists, most of those guys whose pictures are listed above were building computers in their garages/dorm rooms. the dorm im staying at Univ. of Texas is the same one Dell was originally building and selling his computers out of. alot of my friends who are engineers werent pressured to do so. they just have this innate sense of wanting to know how things work...mostly taking apart gizmos and the like.

engineering students i know from korea (im picking on korea because my best friend is from there and is in chemical engineering) are leaps and bounds ahead of american ones regarding math and theorems, but it seems like they lack that innate sense of curiosity. theyre buried in books, are incredibly academically disciplined, but arent out having fun building cool stuff. for example, an electrical engineering buddy of mine built a beer pong table that lights up different colors according to how much pressure is applied to the table, so the table changes colors depending on the amount of beer in cups.

programs in the US are very selective and competitive, but theres so many different programs that people tend to jump around until finding the right one. the US offers so much in that regard. just about every tier 1 university has the resources/program to fit a specific student's interest. also, donors like to have donating wars to see who can donate the most money to have programs and buildings named after them. right now at UT, bill gates and dell are donating millions to the computer engineering and programming programs. so allowing the private sector to have a bit of influence is positive in that respect.

also, companies dedicate alot of resources to job training in the US, and many people can be in job training for up to five years before theyre given the reigns on their job description. the (relatively) strong market allows companies to do this. theres also a strong flow of information between jobs and job prospects. many people choose to specialize in a field simply because its in high demand.

i could go on and on, but ive typed way too much, and im getting pretty biased :lol.

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In a way you're confirming the impression we have of the US education system. I never thought of the "hobbyist" angle, but it's interesting especially since there are more extracurricular activities in US high schools, are better organized and at a higher level than in Europe (although some EU systems are starting to integrate the two philosophy quite successfully).
That is also, in my opinion, the explanation of your observation about your Korean friend. Their knowledge is wider and more theoretical, while US programs are more hands on and focused.

Again no expert here just writing what my perception of the differences is (correct or not), having worked with quite a few engineers from different parts of the world.

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Originally Posted by Slomo

I wouldn't make fun of the Finnish economy, certainly not from a "quality of life" point of view. They have their problems, but they also have their shit together much more than most of the other countries I know (including the US and my own country).

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You and I both know that although its a very fluid relationship, countries such as Finland benefit from NATO by not having to pump all their cash into national security...this alone is responsible for the standard of living of many Euro countries surpassing those in the U.S....

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I couldn't disagree more with the "Technology will be our savior" mantra. The iPad and other technological gizmos are just tools, fancier versions of a hammer if you will. Without the correct approach to educations you end up with people hitting each over on the head with the aforementioned hammer instead of building houses, factories, machines...

Oh, and the iPad is the worst device for what you propose.

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Doesn't have to be an IPAD, but an IPAD type clone made for schools...and I am not saying that technology is a savior to the problems in public schools but kids do love the reinforcement and support that technology supplies plus it helps to cut down on inattention in the classroom because kids today are so technologically oriented by TV and computers...its very difficult for teachers to compete....so why try?

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As for the financial/political aspect of your solution, without reforming the education system you are merely taking the power from one group and giving it to another.

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I agree, financial reform is needed, I would especially look at gambling profits in TX, but we either improve our schools or we build more prisons.....

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Originally Posted by Slomo

:lol @ crediting facebook for the North African revolutions.

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...not just Facebook, but all social networking....

Facebook is just at the forefront...

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Originally Posted by ploto

Most high school libraries are already primarily technology centers with so much available through databases and online journals- which by the way you also have to pay for, as well. But never tell a librarian, you can totally get rid of a library because they offer a lot more than just books on a shelf. If that is all you get from yours, then your school is doing a poor job.

Technology replacing print does not fix the problem with schools. It is the entire approach that needs evaluation.

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You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote or you are intentionally representing it....my point was that it would be a very positive move forward to give kids portable computers to use in their education...not that it alone would transform low performing schools...and I agree Librarians could become next to extinct..

....also, schools hold a virtual marketing strong-hold that could potentially rake in billions to school districts and tax relief for taxpayers...why not allow advertising on campuses and have companies supply technology and pay for facilities like fast food dumps at schools.. can't be any worse than what kids eat today....lets not kid ourselves...

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

...not just Facebook, but all social networking....

Facebook is just at the forefront...

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I would say that the ease of access to alternative opinions/POVs provided by the internet is to be credited. But since social networking is part of the internet I can agree with the above.

While I agree to the use of modern tools in education (iPads, computers, IT gadgets...), they are mere tools in service of a system. The tools alone will not give you a better product.

The EU/US/NATO debate is too complicated to tackle in this thread I will offer just two comments to your reply:
- Your point, While true (to a large extent) in the past, has lost a lot of its validity in recent years.
- Since Finland is not a NATO member state the point is even less pertinent to this debate. Finland does profit from the stability of the region, which is certainly in part due to NATO, but that fact doesn't directly help with their defense budget.

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

...and I agree Librarians could become next to extinct..

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You missed my point. This will not happn because librarians do much more than you seem to realize.

The ideal school is a library, but I digress.

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Originally Posted by ploto

You missed my point. This will not happn because librarians do much more than you seem to realize.

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Most of which can be done by a para-professional, but maybe the librarians job will just change to being more of a technical facilitator and resource specialists, such as teaching kids how to do research on the internet...that's what I see happening...

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

The ideal school is a library, but I digress.

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Kids don't read enough books. Reading is important even in standardized testing because the number one reason kids miss questions is because they didn't read the problem...that said, I have a problem with those that say that all reading should be done in schools and its up to teachers to teach kids to appreciate reading...the parent that allows their kid to play video games all weekend or watch TV is just as responsible for their kids low reading grade...crazy laws by politicians pass laws like NCLB which dictate which kids books can or can't read is also responsible.....TX state education board which dictates that creationism and religion be thought right alongside evolution and philosophy is also responsible for the dumbing down of our kids....society which places so much empathizes on sports, instant gratification, and letting the TV do the thinking for you, such as FAUX News, are also responsible..

We could play this game all day, but my point is that it is too easy to point fingers and say, look over here....here's the problem....it's the evil Unionized, socialized Obama educational system! No it's not.... the problems are all around you...

Kids this days read and write more than any generation before them...

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Originally Posted by velik_m

Kids this days read and write more than any generation before them...

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Not in my country comrade!

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

Not in my country comrade!

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Sure they do, you just refuse to see it, because it doesn't conform with your perception of kids going on the wrong path. Kids are subject to the same instincts every generation before them was. They used to play outside with each other, parents locked them up and now they connected online and they play online with each other. And they have the same desire to express themselves as those before them did, and thanks to technology, they have more than enough avenues to do so (more than we had, let alone those before us).

Instead of trying to force the learning patterns on them, we should discover the ones they already use and enhance them. If people wouldn't be so concerned with teaching them "the right way" (whatever that means) they could actually find time to teach this kids some stuff. It's not like the kids need to be motivated to learn, nature took care of that problem.

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

Most of which can be done by a para-professional, but maybe the librarians job will just change to being more of a technical facilitator and resource specialists, such as teaching kids how to do research on the internet...that's what I see happening...

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It is obvious you have no idea what an actual professional librarian does if you think it can be done by a paraprofessional.

Librarians already teach students how to do research, albeit the internet is not the best option.

im pretty sure i read more on a per daily basis than anyone before.


but...

im definitely more retarded because i have to read yalls takes.

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

Most of which can be done by a para-professional, but maybe the librarians job will just change to being more of a technical facilitator and resource specialists, such as teaching kids how to do research on the internet...that's what I see happening...

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LOL

I'm going to point Jekka to this post. This is going to be great to watch her read it.

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

Most of which can be done by a para-professional, but maybe the librarians job will just change to being more of a technical facilitator and resource specialists, such as teaching kids how to do research on the internet...that's what I see happening...

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Seriously? Do you really think that librarians are just a bunch of women who run around in pencil skirts and direct people to the correct Dewey Decimal numbers? Among my many duties as an academic librarian, I -

- Research book and media materials as the only person providing college development for a 4-year college (ie I buy everything that the college library needs to support the academic programs the college offers)
- Provide bibliographic instruction that includes lecturing on search algorithms, teaching Boolean logic, and researching resources for class-specific teaching
- Catalog materials from scratch using the AACRII and OCLC MARC guidelines, a few of which may be found here: http://www.oclc.org/bibformats/default.htm
- Provide adequate preservation administration and conservation for the school's special collections, this includes being able to recommend appropriate environmental and chemical controls for the physical materials in the collection, which includes newsprint and other papers with significant amounts of lignans pre-1900.

And you think a paraprofessional could do all of this and be compensated appropriately as such? I don't even do any of the coding and programming that a lot of librarians do behind the scenes of the catalog that help make things searchable.

The job of a librarian to help people find stuff doesn't just happen on the surface at the reference desk with a patron's request - we also make things accessible by pioneering and adapting new methods of user accessibility through authorized subject selection, tagging, and cloud computing.

Librarians also operate outside of a catalog of institutional materials - a huge percentage of librarys' yearly budgets go toward database access. Those database companies employ librarians who understand accessibility issues and work to develop proxy settings and capabilities to work alongside and within institutional catalogs.

You really think we're all glorified paraprofessionals? There is a reason most librarians are required to have a masters. Like nurses and teachers who also operate in fields traditionally staffed by women, we are underpaid and underappreciated for what we do.

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Originally Posted by Jekka

Seriously? Do you really think that librarians are just a bunch of women who run around in pencil skirts and direct people to the correct Dewey Decimal numbers?

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and wear big glasses and have their hair up in buns

if you would take the bun down, wear contacts and unbutton the top two buttons on the blouse, maybe you would be appreciated more.

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Originally Posted by Blake

and wear big glasses and have their hair up in buns

if you would take the bun down, wear contacts and unbutton the top two buttons on the blouse, maybe you would be appreciated more.

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:lol I was waiting for the sexist joke... didn't have to wait long.