Rubicon: A river in Wisconsin

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

what am ignorant of? Texas ranks at the bottom of any catgeory dealing with the poor and children.. that is a fact.. and you call me the ignorant one

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Look at your rankings and then check their geographical location. Notice anything the lower ones seem to have in common?

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Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

Look at your rankings and then check their geographical location. Notice anything the lower ones seem to have in common?

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so you were wrong..

I know in San Antonio you have 55 year old firemen retiring at 88% of income and full health benefits.

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

so you were wrong..

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I'm not wrong. Are you just too stupid to see the common denominator?

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Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

I'm not wrong. Are you just too stupid to see the common denominator?

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you want WI to become more like texas.. and I pointed out the horrible way texas treats the poor and children..you were wrong..

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Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

I know in San Antonio you have 55 year old firemen retiring at 88% of income and full health benefits.

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So you know one group in one city in Texas is a member of a union with collective bargaining rights.

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Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

:lmao

Are you really THAT ignorant? Teachers, State Employees, city employees, bus drivers, policemen, firemen...ALL are union.

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Originally Posted by website of the state employee union

WHO WE ARE: TSEU is a 12,000+ member organization of state employees.

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Out of something like 156,000 state employees.

Not sure about local bus driver unions or police unions or fire unions.

I would imagine unionization %'s would be roughly the same.

How are unions that don't have the power to strike and only represent a small fraction of government employees a problem?

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

you want WI to become more like texas.. and I pointed out the horrible way texas treats the poor and children..you were wrong..

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You quoted education and poverty statistics. Are you too stupid to understand that when you live in a border state and have a constant flood of poor, non-english speaking illegal immigrants coming into your state that it skews the numbers when compared to other states that don't?

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Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

You quoted education and poverty statistics. Are you too stupid to understand that when you live in a border state and have a constant flood of poor, non-english speaking illegal immigrants coming into your state that it skews the numbers when compared to other states that don't?

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So it's someone else's fault.... got it.

what has perry done to change any of this? Other than remain quiet when bush was in office to then all of a sudden complain when obama came into office..

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Why are unions even necessary?


Sincerely,

75+% of us NOT in unions.

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Oh, that's a no-brainer.

Unions provide protection to lazy jackasses that would otherwise be fired, in a job that they had to show accountability for.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Oh, that's a no-brainer.

Unions provide protection to lazy jackasses that would otherwise be fired, in a job that they had to show accountability for.

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and you know this how? Do you know anyone peronsally fitting your description?

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Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

I know in San Antonio you have 55 year old firemen retiring at 88% of income and full health benefits.

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... if they have put in 33 years at the Department and started at age 22.

http://www.sanantonio.gov/safd/ffwag...=1440&ver=true

How many years do you think they should work before retiring?

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

and you know this how? Do you know anyone peronsally fitting your description?

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Yes, I work with several.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Yes, I work with several.

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you work for a union?

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

you work for a union?

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Hell no.

I am a union member, and wish I didn't have to be. The ethics of some of the people around me are absolutely disgusting, and they couldn't make it in a non-union job.

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Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

I'm not wrong. Are you just too stupid to see the common denominator?

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You would get better discussions if you used the word "stupid" less.

Probably have lower blood pressure as well.

Well meant and freely given. :toast

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

... if they have put in 33 years at the Department and started at age 22.

http://www.sanantonio.gov/safd/ffwag...=1440&ver=true

How many years do you think they should work before retiring?

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Oh, I dunno...maybe 65-70 like the private sector? I assume you can do simple math. If that retiree at 55 lives to 85 that is approximately 2.5 million of benefits per retiree.

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Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

Oh, I dunno...maybe 65-70 like the private sector? I assume you can do simple math. If that retiree at 55 lives to 85 that is approximately 2.5 million of benefits per retiree.

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Hmmm.

Base pay 4412
multiplied by longitivity bonus of 18%
4412*1.18=5206.16

Multiplied by maximum vesting rate of 87.5%
5206.16*.875=4555

4555 times 12 months times 30 years (87 YO - 55 YO)
4555*12*30=1,639,940

Don't know where you got your figure of 2.5M

Lastly:

The math isn't quite that simple.

The actual amount of money required to pay out that 1.6M is significantly less than 1.6M.

(edit)

Here is the appropriate equation:
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/pict...pictureid=1555

(90% sure it is the correct one, double checking)

Ordinarily I would just stick it into excel, but excel formula guidance for NPV says it only goes up to 254 payments. 30 years times 12 months is 360 payments.

So I gots ta do it the hard way.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

How are unions that don't have the power to strike and only represent a small fraction of government employees a problem?

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That's a big part of the problem I have with public sector unions, with a lesser, though not smaller, item the matter of collective bargaining against the taxpaying public.

Private sector unions have had their flaws, but at the end of the day in a free society labor absolutely has a right to organize as it so desires. Also, such unions can function/offer an apprenticeship like path to its members and uphold some degree of professionalism. I don't find the argument of improved wages that compelling because ultimately that leads to fewer employment opportunities and increased offshoring. Unions probably work best in a non-free trade environment.

Shattering myths in the PEU debate

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

The guy summarizes the Republican stance fairly well.

I even agree with a good chunk of it.

I don't, however, buy the bit where the state's financial straights came solely from the "giveaways" to the unions.

I do think that public workers should contribute to their retirement and other side benefits. I do think that they have gotten concessions that, overall, are clearly unaffordable in the long run.

Most people, when confronted with a problem, and given the right information are willing to do what it takes to make things right.

What galls me is that the governor is treating the unions and people in them like some kind of scum that need to be "shown their place".

I think the people in those unions, if someone sat down with them, worked with them, and gave them the information that they needed to make a decision about what was affordable for the state, would make the right call.

Instead of doing that, he goes off on an emotionally appealing crusade, justifying a paternalistic power-grab and obvious attempt to reduce the influence of your political rivals as some sort of fiscal responsibility.

The Obama administration got slammed by the right for "not letting a good crisis go to waste". That is exactly what is happening here.

If the Republican governor and state representatives were really concerned about fiscal responsibility, there are so many ways they could address that besides this bill.

That none of those other ways of fixing the budget seem to have been considered says all I need to know.

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Yeah, I thought the association of the state's problems with the union bennies was a bit of a stretch as well. But I thought the analysis was pretty good as regards inverse incentives.. The bulk of the article seems to ring fairly true.

Heritage VRWC stink tank has as much credibility as Fox Repug Propaganda network

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Shattering myths in the PEU debate

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He wants to take away collective bargaining rights from some unions but not others.

Why is that, Darrin?

Doing it the hard way yields, at a modest 3% return over inflation of 3%:
$1,083,098.62
If you distributed this amount in 360 equal payments of 4555 (+inflation over time), it would total this starting number.

To achieve that amount, the city would have to reserve much less than this figure over the 33 years of service.

To achieve this amount of reserve required for 33 years, would be about $875 per month.

Assuming a 6% return, this would mean an investment of some $208,000 in present day money over the course of 33 years.

Not entirely a "break the bank" scenario to me.

Time.
Value.
Of.
Money.

(edit)
The above calculation is what the City of San Antonio would have to set aside to save up for their fireman's pensions.
Assumptions:
22 year old firefighter works for 33 years and retires at age 55, living to age 85.
3% inflation, 6% investment yield for city reserving fund over the entire 68 year span

Cosmic Cowboy, using "simple math" came up with $2.5M future dollars spent on the fireman's pension.

I came up with $1.6M, to be arrived at by setting aside $875/month over the course of the firefighters working years. I assume this is mostly done by the city, with some possible matching done by the firefighter himself.

Now, I ask again:

Is this an unreasonable amount of money to pay a firefighter?

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Originally Posted by boutons_deux

Heritage VRWC stink tank has as much credibility as Fox Repug Propaganda network

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Reason is libertarian.

What's this VRWC acronym you are constantly spewing?