“No Way Out” of Debt Trap, Gross Says: U.S. Living Standards Doomed to Fall

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Originally Posted by 101A

F. Systematic program to encourage Americans to partake in activities and lifestyles that are profoundly conducive to long-life spans. Give away filterless cigarettes, doughnuts, Soda; a legion of hot hookers - practically free, who won't allow protection. Hell, be creative, wouldn't take much to significantly lower the life expectancy.

Dead people don't collect ss.

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Heh, just have to figure out a way to keep them out of the emergency room.

Free skydiving lessons for everyone?

Maybe hold a nationwide "draw mohammed" day, then go vacationing in Iran?

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Originally Posted by MannyIsGod

Where are the greatest factors Americans have regarding their increased standard of living? Is it energy usage? So if our standard of living falls that mean we use less energy? I've thought for awhile that the world would have to catch up a great deal before our standard of living increases but what does that really mean in practical terms?

My initial thinking is that it is indeed energy usage in the form of excessive driving and decentralized cities. Baring technology increases that allow us more energy usage (such as better batteries and solar) people's driivng habbits will likely be the first to change. Second on that list for me would liikely be water consumption. I live in a place where the main river is a creek fed from snow melt that at its widest is maybe 4 feet. People out west will likely pay the price for trying to live in the middle of a desert. Sup Phoenix.

If the worst aspects of our standards of living dropping means reduced energy consumption and a surge in activities like recycling then I'm not too sure its a bad thing.

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Energy is, I think, the very root of our standard of living.

As it gets less efficient in terms of returns on invested energy, we will have to rely on technology to make what we have stretch longer (use fewer units of energy per $ GDP)

I think technology will probably keep it from getting outright dysotopian in that malthusian death-spiral kind of way.

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

I see 5 options. None are pretty.

A) Repay SS with a bunch of printed up funny money.
Upside: Doesn't require tax increases or benefit cuts.
Downside: Inflation. Might collapse the dollar. Everyone suffers, especially low income Americans who are most vulnerable to inflation.

B) Come up with $10 trillion dollars worth of tax increases to repay SS with.
Upside: Won't fuck with inflation. Wouldn't require benefit cuts.
Downside: Might not be feasible to tax another $10 trillion dollars away from Americans on top of their other tax commitments (READ: MEDICARE) Taxpayers end up getting hit with a double-whammy of having to pay SS taxes, and then higher income taxes on top of that to repay the debt owed to SS. Everyone suffers.

C) Borrow money from the "non-public" to repay the debt owed to the public.
Upside: No tax increases. No benefit cuts.
Downside: Increased interest expenses would cause defecits to skyrocket, thus putting more and more pressure to make big cuts to other government programs. Removes the "public debt default" as an option. Financial markets would tolerate the U.S. defaulting on it's own citizens, but a default on non-public debt would cause a catastrophic global crash.

D) Default on the SS bonds.
Upside: Doesn't require new taxes. Makes defecits significantly easier to control.
Downside: Requires massive benefit cuts to SS recipients.

E) Some combination of A-D above.

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F) Invade almost every oil producing country and control oil prices worldwide. Sell $10 trillion worth of oil. Profit!

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Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

It is a totally rational conclusion that the US will not have enough current tax revenue to pay off the T-Bonds held by Social Security as they mature. They will either print shit loads of money or default. No other choices.

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That's many decades away. But it's LIED ABOUT as if it were imminent.

Like CC, Hatch parroting the VRWC-speak of SS T-Bonds are "IOUs".


Sen. Hatch Smears Social Security in Senate Finance Hearing

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel...tml?view=print

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Originally Posted by boutons_deux

That's many decades away. But it's LIED ABOUT as if it were imminent.

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If by "many decades" you mean "less than three decades", you would be making a true statement.

30 years is an infinity in practice.

VRWC has plenty of time and many attempts to privatize SS and impoverish Human-Americans further.

26 years actually. Trust fund projected to be broke by 2037.

In reality, we don't even have that long. 2037 is when the money runs out. SS has to start cashing in their treasuries in 2014. Oh, but that's three whole years away. Plenty of time...............

"Trust fund projected to be broke by 2037."

If nothing changes. There will certainly be changes, so 2037 is nothing but dishonest fear-mongering. Raising the SS contrib by just 1% will push 2037 way back.

Medicare and Medicaid are MUCH MORE immediate problems than SS, since seniors consume much more in medical care than than do in SS payments.

The sick-care corps and their Repug whores will make sure US sick-care remains a Human-American wealth-draining ATM.

So the CBO is fear mongering by projecting 2037 as the terminal date. Ooook. http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/fack.png

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Originally Posted by boutons_deux

"Trust fund projected to be broke by 2037."

If nothing changes. There will certainly be changes, so 2037 is nothing but dishonest fear-mongering. Raising the SS contrib by just 1% will push 2037 way back.

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Except Obama already has changed something. He cut the SS contribution rate by 2%, so that 2037 date is going to be moving closer, not further.

Also, that whole 2037 date is still predicated on the assumption that SS is going to be getting paid back, in full. Hardly a guarantee, and a scenario that presents a whole slew of other problems even if SS does get paid back in full.

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Originally Posted by boutons_deux

Medicare and Medicaid are MUCH MORE immediate problems than SS, since seniors consume much more in medical care than than do in SS payments.

The sick-care corps and their Repug whores will make sure US sick-care remains a Human-American wealth-draining ATM.

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And the enlightened progressives will simply sit there and gawk with bovine incomprehension while this happens. None of them will be in on the payola. OOook. http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/fack.png

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

Except Obama already has changed something. He cut the SS contribution rate by 2%, so that 2037 date is going to be moving closer, not further.

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Oh snap. The VWRC strikes yet again!

Duplicate friggin post.

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Originally Posted by TeyshaBlue

Oh snap. The VWRC strikes yet again!

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They're everywhere I tell ya. VRWC membership includes Obama and the democratic party.

And Croutons still can't and won't address where the US is gonna come up with TEN TRILLION REAL DOLLARS to repay the money they "borrowed" from the "trust fund" and already blew on other stuff.

The master plan: keep sippin on our vast and mostly untapped oil reserves and oil sands while guzzling oil from the world markets then right at the brink... BAM tap our supplies and become the major seller generating trillions in the largest greed fueled money swipe in history

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Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

And Croutons still can't and won't address where the US is gonna come up with TEN TRILLION REAL DOLLARS to repay the money they "borrowed" from the "trust fund" and already blew on other stuff.

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You say that as if the funds will need to be paid all at once.

Ten trillion divided by a decade or three is not quite doomsday.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

You say that as if the funds will need to be paid all at once.

Ten trillion divided by a decade or three is not quite doomsday.

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No but couple that with the fact that SS is running a deficit now and will for the projected future....it ain't exactly rainbow bridges and ponies.

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Originally Posted by Whisky Dog

The master plan: keep sippin on our vast and mostly untapped oil reserves and oil sands while guzzling oil from the world markets then right at the brink... BAM tap our supplies and become the major seller generating trillions in the largest greed fueled money swipe in history

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I would be all for that. Switch over to renewables now, save up the oil, until everyone else runs out and charge out he ass for whatever is left.

If I controlled any oil reserves I would be doing just that.

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Originally Posted by TeyshaBlue

No but couple that with the fact that SS is running a deficit now and will for the projected future....it ain't exactly rainbow bridges and ponies.

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E-yup.

Our only hope is to start encouraging immigration on a large scale.

Yeah, I went there. :stirpot:

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

I would be all for that. Switch over to renewables now, save up the oil, until everyone else runs out and charge out he ass for whatever is left.

If I controlled any oil reserves I would be doing just that.

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lol...you and me both, bruddah.:lol

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

E-yup.

Our only hope is to start encouraging immigration on a large scale.

Yeah, I went there. :stirpot:

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:rollin:rollin

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

F) Raise SS tax rates, while raising the retirement age, and curbing benefits somewhat over time.

Address the problem from both ends, and suck up the fact that the population is aging.

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I agree the SS rates should be increased, and maybe the retirement ages increased since life expectancies are also increasing.

I think what we need as an overall fix is for the federal government to budget to spend no more than 17% of a normal economy GDP number. In bad times, we would still have a deficit, but we could then pay down the debt during average and good time. This would require dramatic cuts, mostly in social service areas, maybe some in military spending. This is just fixing the symptom however, and what we need to do is bring jobs back to our shores. This means reverting back to a more protective stance and reducing tax rates on employers.