For 95% of Spurstalk who are idiots...

Our second, third, fourth, and fifth best defensive lineups this season have included Bonner. Here are our top defensive lineups so far this season: (Numbers are points scored per opponent possession)

1. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan - 0.87
T2. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-Blair - 0.90
T2. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-Bonner-Duncan - 0.90
T4. Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-Bonner-Duncan - 0.93
T4. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-Splitter - 0.93

Note: Ginobili is on each list, once again proving my point that he is a lockdown defender.

In terms of shared win%, here are our best lineups:

1. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-McDyess-Blair - 87.5%
2. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-Bonner-Duncan - 78.5%
3. Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-Bonner-Duncan - 73.3%
4. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-Blair - 71.4%
5. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-McDyess - 68.4%

Well well well, what do ya know. Bonner once again shows up on 4 of the top 5 lineups. But hey, I know some people are still not convinced. Bonner is white, they say. Therefore, he must be a really really really shitty defender. He isn't athletic they say, even though defense is about 20% athleticism. I guess all I can do is spew more FACTS and hope some of you catch on and stop following the opinion of 95% of Spurstalk who are complete dumbasses sometimes. Here we go:

Percentage of opponent field goals from close range (not sure what 82games defines as close range, but I assume its within 5 feet), according to lineup:

T1. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan - 39%
T1. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-Jefferson-Duncan - 39%
3. Parker-Neal-Jefferson-Blair-Duncan - 34%
4. Parker-Hill-Jefferson-Bonner-Duncan - 32%
T5. Parker-Hill-Jefferson-McDyess-Duncan - 31%
T5. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Jefferson-McDyess - 31%

What do ya know, Bonner only in one of those lineups... He must be getting PUNISHED by all those bully 7-footers, cause, ya know, he's just getting annihilated on the block. People are pushing him right into the basket and just posterizing him repeatedly, while he cries and runs to Pop who reassures him "just make a three Matt cause you have zero purpose when you're on the floor other than to do that". I mean, the numbers would back that up, right???

One more Bonner fact I promise:

Best +/- per 48 minutes (must have played at least 5% of available minutes):

1. Ginobili - +11.6
T2. Duncan - +10.6
T2. Bonner - +10.6
4. Hill - +9.1
5. Parker - +7.4

Yea yea yea, I know, still not convinced. I mean what are numbers and facts to the well trained eyes of the couch potato Spurs fans, who sees this guy running around like a T-rex, he must be bringing this team down. Pop and R.C. are just blind idiots with 4 championships since 1999, what do they know? I, the Spurstalk poster, am WAY smarter than those guys! And we have Splitter, who is the next coming of Dwight Howard! He's such a defensive force!

Well, sorry guys, but Splitter has sucked this year. I know Spurstalk experts think he is gonna be a beast against the Lakers and such cause, ya know, he's a 7-footer and god knows that he's gonna beast against Bynum and Pau when the lights come on!'

Yea well, you're wrong. Let me, again, give you facts:

Worst +/- per 48 minutes (must have played at least 5% of available minutes)

1. Anderson (barely qualifies) - -9.1
2. Quinn - -8.4
3. Splitter - -4.9
4. Neal +5.5
T5. Jefferson/McDyess - +6.4

Splitter has sucked big time. The fact is, he is almost over 10 points worse per 48 minutes than the only other rotation player on the list, Gary Neal. His actual +/- is the worst on the team, -51.

This is it for now. Might add some more stuff later if I still get some doubters.

Constant (z) variable - Manu Ginobili

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jay_shs

Constant (z) variable - Manu Ginobili

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Yes, I think it's widely known he's been the best player on the court overall this year for the Spurs though.

This year, or since 2005? (Aside from the year he missed 3/4 of the season, my 8th grade year)

Please Pop, listen to chaz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Basedow

Please Pop, listen to chaz

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I'm defending Pop, not offering any new suggestions.

Many won't like this but the stats don't lie. I still believe his minutes should be cut down once the playoffs begin but he isn't near as bad as most on this board portray him out to be.

The reason Splitters +/- is so low is because he is getting minutes in scrub time. Since we have such a good record, it means he plays mostly when they came is in hand in our favor.

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Originally Posted by ajballer4

The reason Splitters +/- is so low is because he is getting minutes in scrub time. Since we have such a good record, it means he plays mostly when they came is in hand in our favor.

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Do I really need to explain why this is a dumb statement? Hopefully you're just being sarcastic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chazley

Do I really need to explain why this is a dumb statement? Hopefully you're just being sarcastic.

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No I agree with you 100% on Bonner, as much as people, including me, do not like him, he is essential to what we are doing this year. I just think Splitter is better than people give him credit for

where did you get the 95% idiot statistic?

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Originally Posted by Blake

where did you get the 95% idiot statistic?

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The same place he got the #1 statistic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dex

The same place he got the #1 statistic.

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lol well played.

Bonner gets minutes with the best players. What a surprise that he ranks high. Michael Finley was the Spurs' best player when here; just look at his plus/minus numbers.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

For the first stat (opponent points per possession), Duncan and Ginobili are both present in most of the lineups. Bonner's presence is incidental, not influential. If TD blocks 3 shots, Manu steals a couple, and Bonner gets dunked on thrice, the opponent PPP = 0.75 with no credit to Bonner. What are the worst five lineups on this front? Do any of them have the Bonner-Blair combo?

I don't know what shared win % is. I've heard of win shares, but this stat is new to me. Will comment after you provide a link to it.

The close range shots stat is meaningless. When a shotblocker mans the middle, the defensive strategy will be to stay close on the perimeter and let the guard try and finish inside. If a Bonner/Blair combo mans the middle, Pop may ask the perimeter defenders to back off to prevent the drive and rather give up the jumpshot. The opponent will score freely off of jumpers, but on the stat sheet it will look like Blair and Bonner shut down the paint. [Example: guard drives 10 times into TD/Dice, scores 4 times for 8 points, guard takes the open shot 10 times against Bonner/Blair, scores 3 threes and 3 twos for 13 points]

+/- is a highly ridiculed stat as it is and I don't want to waste my breath on it. It depends on who you play with. Finley at his absolute nadir put up fairly decent plus/minus because he used to start with TD and TP. I'm no Splitter supporter, but he must've played half his minutes in garbage time with the likes of Quinn, Anderson, Novak et al ... not a great way to boost your +/- stat.

If you want to compare Bonner to the other bigs, start watching games without the blinkers.

Congratulations, Chaz, your "#1" supporters and advocates are....

wait for it...

LAKER Fans!!! :toast



Isn't that right, John Basedow?

so the spurs D is best with bonner on the bench.......ok

haha LOVE seeing all the Bonner haters in the thread. Again, stats and facts don't lie.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warlord23

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

For the first stat (opponent points per possession), Duncan and Ginobili are both present in most of the lineups. Bonner's presence is incidental, not influential. If TD blocks 3 shots, Manu steals a couple, and Bonner gets dunked on thrice, the opponent PPP = 0.75 with no credit to Bonner. What are the worst five lineups on this front? Do any of them have the Bonner-Blair combo?

I don't know what shared win % is. I've heard of win shares, but this stat is new to me. Will comment after you provide a link to it.

The close range shots stat is meaningless. When a shotblocker mans the middle, the defensive strategy will be to stay close on the perimeter and let the guard try and finish inside. If a Bonner/Blair combo mans the middle, Pop may ask the perimeter defenders to back off to prevent the drive and rather give up the jumpshot. The opponent will score freely off of jumpers, but on the stat sheet it will look like Blair and Bonner shut down the paint. [Example: guard drives 10 times into TD/Dice, scores 4 times for 8 points, guard takes the open shot 10 times against Bonner/Blair, scores 3 threes and 3 twos for 13 points]

+/- is a highly ridiculed stat as it is and I don't want to waste my breath on it. It depends on who you play with. Finley at his absolute nadir put up fairly decent plus/minus because he used to start with TD and TP. I'm no Splitter supporter, but he must've played half his minutes in garbage time with the likes of Quinn, Anderson, Novak et al ... not a great way to boost your +/- stat.

If you want to compare Bonner to the other bigs, start watching games without the blinkers.

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Hilarious that you try so hard to disprove facts and results. You're coming up with theoretical situations that in the long run have a negligible amount of impact on a stat. Also, Blair/Neal/Hill have had plenty of run in garbage time and their +/- numbers are fine.

Don't know why people are using Finley as some kind of scapegoat for the supposed ineffectiveness of the +/- stat. Finley won a championship with us and was very effective for this team.

Also, LOL at saying Bonner's stats are so good cause he's piggybacking on the rest of our roster. If that's the case, just throw me in there and I'll have the same impact as Bonner, right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chazley

haha LOVE seeing all the Bonner haters in the thread. Again, stats and facts don't lie.

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Lol, the conclusions you're making based on these stats, however, are dishonest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chazley

haha LOVE seeing all the Bonner haters in the thread. Again, stats and facts don't lie.

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fact- spurs D is best when bonner rides pine

fact- we have a higher winning % with bonner riding the pine hard

facts

Watch the current game, yes that just happened with Bonner missing and getting scored on multiple times - FACT

Care to comment on the close of the 2nd quarter, asshole?

Great fucking +/- :cry

OP is a fucking retard.

Bonner is garbage.

our biggest point swings is when Bonner misses a few 3s and on defensive ends gets pummeled.

retard ass chazley.

Matt Bonner is a beast...stats don't lie. His presence on not only the offensive--but the DEFENSIVE end will prove to be the difference in the playoffs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DesignatedT

Many won't like this but the stats don't lie. I still believe his minutes should be cut down once the playoffs begin but he isn't near as bad as most on this board portray him out to be.

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Stats might not lie, but unfortunately Bonner gets caught with his stats down a little too often in the playoffs.

I agree, chazley is a bonner defender, therefore, a retard by definition. If he's so effective, why does he choke so bad in the playoffs? You're only as good as your competition.

Darn these idiots!!!

all this thread tells me is bonner seems to play alot

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nkdlunch

OP is a fucking retard.

Bonner is garbage.

our biggest point swings is when Bonner misses a few 3s and on defensive ends gets pummeled.

retard ass chazley.

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So much fail in this post.

Bonner is the best 3-pt shooter in the league, and you indicate him shooting threes is a bad thing? Rofl.

Obviously you didn't read the part where I gave stats showing he is a good defender.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thOOdee

all this thread tells me is bonner seems to play alot

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False, most of the stats are adjusted for playing time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cessation

I agree, chazley is a bonner defender, therefore, a retard by definition. If he's so effective, why does he choke so bad in the playoffs? You're only as good as your competition.

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Sample size. You gonna go off of a 11-game sample from last year? I could go on and on and on about STARS who have struggled early in their playoff careers, only to blossom in the end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by itzsoweezee

Lol, the conclusions you're making based on these stats, however, are dishonest.

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Like what? What did I say that weren't backed up by these stats?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by itzsoweezee

Care to comment on the close of the 2nd quarter, asshole?

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Yea, no good player in NBA history has ever had a bad game, let alone a bad END OF A QUARTER, therefore Bonner must suck.

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Originally Posted by HighLowLobForBig-50

fact- spurs D is best when bonner rides pine

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by HighLowLobForBig-50

fact- we have a higher winning % with bonner riding the pine hard

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by HighLowLobForBig-50

facts

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You take dumbass to another level.

Stats never tell the whole story

Trying to be Hollinger?

Do you know how stupid that guy really is?

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Originally Posted by jdiggy0424

Stats never tell the whole story

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Stats>average Spur fan's opinion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sense

Trying to be Hollinger?

Do you know how stupid that guy really is?

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No, I'm not trying to be him. However, most top contenders in the NBA have guys just like Hollinger working behind the scenes to give them advanced basketball metrics that they then use to put a better team on the court.

Also, you might disagree with John Hollinger, but to call him stupid is, well, stupid.

How does one watch a game with blinkers on?

Does one have to be in a car?

Ok I haven't posted in months, but this time I gotta. I watch with my eyes and it's plain to see Bonner is very mediocre on D. These sort of stats don't always tell the truth. If you were talking blocked shots and rebounds then yes obviously. When I see Bonner blocking other bigs shots, altering shots or fighting like mad on the boards, I'll be a believer. But we all know those things aren't going to happen. Bonner's value is hitting 3's and his other shots he mixes in, but I'd trade that any day for a true big. You know the kind you can depend on to come through and get key stops. BTW Manu is no lock down defender, he's crafty and smart but Bowen like.. no.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by all_heart

Ok I haven't posted in months, but this time I gotta. I watch with my eyes and it's plain to see Bonner is very mediocre on D. These sort of stats don't always tell the truth. If you were talking blocked shots and rebounds then yes obviously. When I see Bonner blocking other bigs shots, altering shots or fighting like mad on the boards, I'll be a believer. But we all know those things aren't going to happen. Bonner's value is hitting 3's and his other shots he mixes in, but I'd trade that any day for a true big. You know the kind you can depend on to come through and get key stops. BTW Manu is no lock down defender, he's crafty and smart but Bowen like.. no.

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Your post is the shared sentiment of about 80% of this board. MY OP's purpose was to prove that just because Bonner has the ugliest game on our team, doesn't mean he isn't effective and our team isn't much better defensively and offensively when he's on the court. All I can do is to point to stats and facts to back me up, because there's very few knowledgeable people here... but that's fun for me. Bonner averages about one steal/block per 48 minutes, that's fine for me for our PF on defense. Bonner is more of a mobile defender anyways, he's not a rim protector. His defensive fundamentals are top notch, and while he's prone to getting burned at times by very athletic PF's (which we don't need to worry about), he has excellent footwork and rarely fouls. On offense, he is amazingly efficient... he rarely turns it over (1 TO/48 min) and his effective FG% (0.687) is through the roof, among the best in the league.

Fun fact: Bonner has been CLUTCH this season, with an eFG% of 83.3% when the situation is 4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left,
neither team ahead by more than 5 points.

By the way, LOCKDOWN defender might have been a slight stretch when describing Manu as a defender, because Bruce was the epitomy of lockdown and Manu isn't on that level, but he is closer than anyone gives him credit for. I have read multiple articles (I know one was on 48MoH) that gave advanced stats showing just how good Manu was on defense.

Keep the rebuttals coming boys.

Bonner is more of a mobile defender anyways, he's not a rim protector. His defensive fundamentals are top notch, and while he's prone to getting burned at times by very athletic PF's (which we don't need to worry about), he has excellent footwork and rarely fouls.

Fun fact: Bonner has been CLUTCH this season, with an eFG% of 83.3% when the situation is 4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left,
neither team ahead by more than 5 points.


Huh.. the defending champs have LO and Gasol.. OKC is all athletic..
Having Bonner on the floor in critical moments or against athletic bigs means team D needs to be superb and leaves little room for error. Extremely hard to do against elite teams. BTW when Bonner gets dunked on it gives a lot of confidence to the opposing team.. not good.

I want Bonner to be clutch in the post season.. there where it matters the most. He has to prove himself he can come through..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chazley

You take dumbass to another level.

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Was he wrong?

lol GNSF

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kyle Orton

lol GNSF

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lol stupid Nuggets fan. What are you, like 5th in the West? Get that weak stuff outta here

Sup Wilford

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kyle Orton

Sup Wilford

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what's good scrah

In an isolation against Bonner the other guy generally scores, I like Bonner though he's a decent back-up that is payed appropriately for his role and he does it pretty well. He's pretty decent at ball denial, which I will say is from no one being able to miss the glowing white and red guy near the man, is he covering? Who knows, I was looking for my man and got distracted by him in the vicinity, he is in position and tries hard. He's not a rim protector, and his rebounding for his size and position is poor. Offensively in the past he has been more bothered by hard close-outs than I would like but he does keep the paint from staying packed.


Alot of the fans see Bonner getting beaten regularly on isolations and alot of the time it ends in an athletic and spectacular dunk. This is memorable, the contested jump shot by another player because he was covering his man, or a pass out of the post because he had position and was guarding his guy isn't. It doesn't help that he's extra memorable looking when he is getting posterized.

In an isolation against Bonner the other guy generally scores, I like Bonner though he's a decent back-up that is payed appropriately for his role and he does it pretty well. He's pretty decent at ball denial, which I will say is from no one being able to miss the glowing white and red guy near the man, is he covering? Who knows, I was looking for my man and got distracted by him in the vicinity, he is in position and tries hard. He's not a rim protector, and his rebounding for his size and position is poor. Offensively in the past he has been more bothered by hard close-outs than I would like but he does keep the paint from staying packed.


Alot of the fans see Bonner getting beaten regularly on isolations and alot of the time it ends in an athletic and spectacular dunk. This is memorable, the contested jump shot by another player because he was covering his man, or a pass out of the post because he had position and was guarding his guy isn't. It doesn't help that he's extra memorable looking when he is getting posterized.

Chillin bro. Hows the diabeetus, have you had to get anything amputated like Beetus Joe?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kyle Orton

Chillin bro. Hows the diabeetus, have you had to get anything amputated like Beetus Joe?

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Left BKA (below knee amputation), tbh. Don't get the beetus, Kyle...it's a bitch

Advanced stats dont tell the whole story, BUT they are usually a better starting point for assessment than "what my eyes tell me."

Any person watching a game comes in with all sorts of pre-conceived notions of what makes a player productive. When someone is productive in other ways, a person unconsciously chooses whether their beliefs about productivity are wrong, or the statistics. It's much harder for a person to change their beliefs and biases than to just attack the data, so the latter is usually what happens.

It's kinda the same thing as when folks that say "the spurs are boring." People come in with preconceived notions of what "exciting" basketball is (sick dunks, ridiculous stats by superstars, etc) and when the Spurs win with ball movement, team play, and a solid pick and roll game, people insist that the Spurs are boring rather than admit that maybe their concept of "exciting" wasn't right in the first place.

Same thing as when people love the James White!(s) of the world because athleticism is usually seen more favorably than basketball IQ. But I'll take Oberto from the early decade over Stromile Swift anyday.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ajh18

Advanced stats dont tell the whole story, BUT they are usually a better starting point for assessment than "what my eyes tell me."

Any person watching a game comes in with all sorts of pre-conceived notions of what makes a player productive. When someone is productive in other ways, a person unconsciously chooses whether their beliefs about productivity are wrong, or the statistics. It's much harder for a person to change their beliefs and biases than to just attack the data, so the latter is usually what happens.

It's kinda the same thing as when folks that say "the spurs are boring." People come in with preconceived notions of what "exciting" basketball is (sick dunks, ridiculous stats by superstars, etc) and when the Spurs win with ball movement, team play, and a solid pick and roll game, people insist that the Spurs are boring rather than admit that maybe their concept of "exciting" wasn't right in the first place.

Same thing as when people love the James White!(s) of the world because athleticism is usually seen more favorably than basketball IQ. But I'll take Oberto from the early decade over Stromile Swift anyday.

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Excellent post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ajh18

Advanced stats dont tell the whole story, BUT they are usually a better starting point for assessment than "what my eyes tell me."

Any person watching a game comes in with all sorts of pre-conceived notions of what makes a player productive. When someone is productive in other ways, a person unconsciously chooses whether their beliefs about productivity are wrong, or the statistics. It's much harder for a person to change their beliefs and biases than to just attack the data, so the latter is usually what happens.

It's kinda the same thing as when folks that say "the spurs are boring." People come in with preconceived notions of what "exciting" basketball is (sick dunks, ridiculous stats by superstars, etc) and when the Spurs win with ball movement, team play, and a solid pick and roll game, people insist that the Spurs are boring rather than admit that maybe their concept of "exciting" wasn't right in the first place.

Same thing as when people love the James White!(s) of the world because athleticism is usually seen more favorably than basketball IQ. But I'll take Oberto from the early decade over Stromile Swift anyday.

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So where's the stat that shows the shooting percentage for the player(s) that Bonner is matched up with? That would be interesting.

You want stats - here you go:
Spurs opponent FG%
.451 - 2010/2011 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.452 - 2009/2010 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.453 - 2008/2009 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.444 - 2007/2008
.443 - 2006/2007
.433 - 2005/2006
.426 - 2004/2005

You can attribute some of the decline to the loss of Bowen, but you don't help that factor by giving 17+mpg to a big averaging 3.4 rebounds a game and 0.4 blocks per game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by underdawg

So where's the stat that shows the shooting percentage for the player(s) that Bonner is matched up with? That would be interesting.

You want stats - here you go:
Spurs opponent FG%
.451 - 2010/2011 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.452 - 2009/2010 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.453 - 2008/2009 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.444 - 2007/2008
.443 - 2006/2007
.433 - 2005/2006
.426 - 2004/2005

You can attribute some of the decline to the loss of Bowen, but you don't help that factor by giving 17+mpg to a big averaging 3.4 rebounds a game and 0.4 blocks per game.

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you can attribute a lot in those stats. Like the decline in the big 3 as they are getting older which is the main reason for this. particularly Duncan.

You don't need stats when you just need to use common sense regarding Matty. Bonner is an asset to this team when he is hitting his shots, and is not being overused by Pop. Too much Bonner means Bonner isn't on offensively and Bonner's defensive liabilities are being exposed. Come playoff time, Pop needs to have the hook at the ready for Bonner when he isn't on his game.

Shove these stats up your ass you Bonner-loving morons:

Bonner
D rtg 107 (pts allowed per 100 possessions)
DWS 1.1 (# of wins contributed by a player due to his defense)

Blair
D rtg 99
DWS 2.9


McDyess
D rtg 102
DWS 1.8

Duncan
D rtg 99
DWS 3.8

I thought these stupid Nazi trolls were being retired.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reinhard Heydrich

How can anyone want Matt Bonner on their team come playoff time?

Serious question.

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Its not that I want Bonner, but it is reality that Bonner is a Spur, so I hope Bonner can shed his choking in the playoffs label.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DesignatedT

you can attribute a lot in those stats. Like the decline in the big 3 as they are getting older which is the main reason for this. particularly Duncan.

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True, but Tony and Manu's steals per game are the highest they've had since '06 and Duncan's blocks per game are higher than his previous 2 years. His rebounds are down, but I don't think him taking less shot attempts helps that. Point is their defense doesn't seem to have declined like you would think, but overall the Spurs defense has.

Point is - It will be interesting in the playoffs to see if Pop's strategy works -offensive emphasis over defense. If you go off of history, Tony and Manu are going to get you 20 a piece and Duncan's offensive role continues to diminish, but he should still get close to 20 ppg himself. Where are the other 30-40 points going to come from?

Spurs are probably going to need to average over a 100 pts per game in the playoffs since their defense is going to give up close to that. I can see Neal giving the Spurs 10 ppg, but I don't have any confidence in Bonner, Jefferson, Blair, Mcdyess and Hill making up the rest of that gap on a consistent level and especially if one of the Big 3 has an off night.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chazley

You take dumbass to another level.

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last night i was pumped for the game and was in the mood to feed you.
not so much today. good luck with that

Quote:

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Originally Posted by underdawg

So where's the stat that shows the shooting percentage for the player(s) that Bonner is matched up with? That would be interesting.

You want stats - here you go:
Spurs opponent FG%
.451 - 2010/2011 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.452 - 2009/2010 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.453 - 2008/2009 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.444 - 2007/2008
.443 - 2006/2007
.433 - 2005/2006
.426 - 2004/2005

You can attribute some of the decline to the loss of Bowen, but you don't help that factor by giving 17+mpg to a big averaging 3.4 rebounds a game and 0.4 blocks per game.

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haha these stats are so irrelevant to this discussion... do I really need to explain why?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by itzsoweezee

Shove these stats up your ass you Bonner-loving morons:

Bonner
D rtg 107 (pts allowed per 100 possessions)
DWS 1.1 (# of wins contributed by a player due to his defense)

Blair
D rtg 99
DWS 2.9


McDyess
D rtg 102
DWS 1.8

Duncan
D rtg 99
DWS 3.8

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Finally, someone with a valid rebuttal. Do you mind sharing where you got these numbers from?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chazley

Finally, someone with a valid rebuttal. Do you mind sharing where you got these numbers from?

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basketball-reference.com

Quote:

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Originally Posted by itzsoweezee

basketball-reference.com

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Those are interesting stats, but I think the real question is where does his 107 rating stack up against the league average. I've never claimed Bonner was more than a slightly above average defender, but these stats could or could not help me in that regard.

Bonner Thread!!! He has choked in the past and will choke in the future!

Nice thread tho!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chazley

Those are interesting stats, but I think the real question is where does his 107 rating stack up against the league average. I've never claimed Bonner was more than a slightly above average defender, but these stats could or could not help me in that regard.

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Blair and Duncan are number 8 and 10 in the league, respectively, based on defensive rating. At 107, Bonner is ranked 200th in the league, easily worse than ALL of the Spurs bigmen: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ced_stats.html

Hey Chazley, what are the Spurs best Rebounding lineups? Offensive and defensive? Defense means nothing if you can't grab the rebound.

Seriously question.

once again great thread!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by itzsoweezee

Blair and Duncan are number 8 and 10 in the league, respectively, based on defensive rating. At 107, Bonner is ranked 200th in the league, easily worse than ALL of the Spurs bigmen: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ced_stats.html

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itzsoweezee, thank you for actually taking the time to back up your argument with actual facts and stats. These numbers are pretty damning when it comes to proving Bonner is, in fact, a bad individual defender. When you combine these stats with the ones I provided in my original post though, I don't think it's sheer coincidence that Bonner shows up in some of our best defensive lineups. There are some explanations for this, some of which being Bonner rotates well on defense, he defends the pick and roll decently, and might actually be a better help defender than I or anyone else give him credit for.

The list actually puts Blair as the best defender on the Spurs, 12th overall in the league, so I do have to take their rankings with a grain of salt (Bonner is 181st, Duncan is 15th). Overall though, a decent list.

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Originally Posted by 20beastie45

Hey Chazley, what are the Spurs best Rebounding lineups? Offensive and defensive? Defense means nothing if you can't grab the rebound.

Seriously question.

once again great thread!

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A very good point Beastie, one that I overlooked.

Here are the top rebounding lineups the Spurs have (percentage of available rebounds rebounded):

1. Parker-Hill-Jefferson-Blair-Duncan - 57%
2. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-McDyess - 56.5%
3. Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-McDyess-Duncan - 56%
4. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-McDyess-Blair - 53%
5. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan - 52%

He only shows up once on that list, however, we have to take into account the differences for each of these lineups if they are porous defensively.

The #1 ranked lineup actually has a very good points per possession allowed(0.95). When you combine that with the units rebounding ability, it is easily our best rebounding/defensive lineup.

The #2 ranked lineup with Bonner though is a very very close second, with a PPPA of 0.96.

This shows that Blair/Duncan and Bonner/McDyess are the two big man combos that work best in terms of defense and rebounding.

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Originally Posted by chazley

A very good point Beastie, one that I overlooked.

Here are the top rebounding lineups the Spurs have (percentage of available rebounds rebounded):

1. Parker-Hill-Jefferson-Blair-Duncan - 57%
2. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-McDyess - 56.5%
3. Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-McDyess-Duncan - 56%
4. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-McDyess-Blair - 53%
5. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan - 52%

He only shows up once on that list, however, we have to take into account the differences for each of these lineups if they are porous defensively.

The #1 ranked lineup actually has a very good points per possession allowed(0.95). When you combine that with the units rebounding ability, it is easily our best rebounding/defensive lineup.

The #2 ranked lineup with Bonner though is a very very close second, with a PPPA of 0.96.

This shows that Blair/Duncan and Bonner/McDyess are the two big man combos that work best in terms of defense and rebounding.

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How about best Defensive/Rebounding line-ups since the all star game and against playoff contending teams?

Keep up the good research!!

Gonna throw out another nice stat... best lineups in terms of difference between points scored per possession and points allowed per possession. Can also say the numbers are extra points per possession compared to other team.

1. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-McDyess - +0.37
2. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan - +0.35
3. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-Bonner-Duncan - +0.29
4. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-Blair - +0.24
5. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Jefferson-McDyess (Spurs best offensive lineup, surprisingly) - +0.23

Hill/Ginobili on each list, and Ginobili playing the 3 on each list. Definitely surprising

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Originally Posted by 20beastie45

How about best Defensive/Rebounding line-ups since the all star game and against playoff contending teams?

Keep up the good research!!

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I don't know how to look this up, sorry.

I dont get it...is this thread for only 95% of the idiots on the board? If so, why are 5% of the idiots not included? Who are the idiots in that 5%?

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

I thought these stupid Nazi trolls were being retired.

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This. They're stupid, offensive, and they need to go.

Are we allowed to have a Hitler troll? These nazi trolls lack leadership, tbh.

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Originally Posted by Cessation

Are we allowed to have a Hitler troll?

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Hitler was banned from SpursTalk. :lol

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Originally Posted by jaffies

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by gospursgojas

I dont get it...is this thread for only 95% of the idiots on the board? If so, why are 5% of the idiots not included? Who are the idiots in that 5%?

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95%idiots
5%smart people

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Originally Posted by duncan228

Hitler was banned from SpursTalk. :lol

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good stuff:rollin

How do you get banned from spurstalk?:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

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Originally Posted by duncan228

Hitler was banned from SpursTalk. :lol

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lol

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Originally Posted by duncan228

Hitler was banned from SpursTalk. :lol

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Well played, milady :lol

OMFG!!!! That video is so fucking awesome...sorry for the language....LOLOLOLOLOL

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Originally Posted by Texas 2 Step

Bonner sucks....end of story. He is a piss poor rebounder, his D is solid againts SF but against PF/C he is worthless. He does not take charges, is foul prone, is never in help pos, he suck.

Novak is a better player than Bonner.

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Thanks for your fascinating input. Also want to thank you for the deep analysis and research you put into your post.

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Originally Posted by gospursgojas

I dont get it...is this thread for only 95% of the idiots on the board? If so, why are 5% of the idiots not included? Who are the idiots in that 5%?

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So basically, you just called 100% of Spurstalk idiots, and in the same point called yourself an idiot.

I can see that, Bonner isn't an exceptional individual defender, nor is he an intimidating shotblocker, but he's always been a solid post defender and he is smart enough to know where he needs to be in the team defensive scheme. He tries to rotate at the right times to the right places.
He may be the farthest thing from a lock-down defender or a defensive presence, but he works hard and isn't lazy on the defensive side of the ball. I like the effort.

Bonner is obviously a very good regular season player, there's no problem with having him as a consistent rotation player during the regular season..the +/- numbers, both adjusted and unadjusted, support Bonner's success during the regular season..

I'm a Bonner supporter, but the die-hards like to point out his on/off +/- numbers, for obvious reasons..his regular season on/off is fantastic, because he's a solid regular season player..

However, the playoff numbers do tell a different story..

Bonner's regular season on/off +/- in 2010: +3.48..
Bonner's playoffs on/off +/- in the playoffs: -8.53..

Bonner's regular season on/off +/- in 2009: +8.89..
Bonner's playoffs on/off +/- in 2009: -12.27

The difference is massive..

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

Bonner is obviously a very good regular season player, there's no problem with having him as a consistent rotation player during the regular season..the +/- numbers, both adjusted and unadjusted, support Bonner's success during the regular season..

I'm a Bonner supporter, but the die-hards like to point out his on/off +/- numbers, for obvious reasons..his regular season on/off is fantastic, because he's a solid regular season player..

However, the playoff numbers do tell a different story..

Bonner's regular season on/off +/- in 2010: +3.48..
Bonner's playoffs on/off +/- in the playoffs: -8.53..

Bonner's regular season on/off +/- in 2009: +8.89..
Bonner's playoffs on/off +/- in 2009: -12.27

The difference is massive..

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Again, sample size.

Also, 2009 playoffs we didn't have Manu, and 2010 playoffs Tony was coming off the bench while recovering from his injury. Bonner heavily relies on both of those guys driving and kicking, and in turn they count on Bonner to spread the floor.

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Originally Posted by chazley

Again, sample size.

Also, 2009 playoffs we didn't have Manu, and 2010 playoffs Tony was coming off the bench while recovering from his injury. Bonner heavily relies on both of those guys driving and kicking, and in turn they count on Bonner to spread the floor.

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Yes, but lately in big games he has bricked most of thos (Last three BIG GAMES has been horrible), and they are healthy now.

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Originally Posted by Sean Cagney

Yes, but lately in big games he has bricked most of thos (Last three BIG GAMES has been horrible), and they are healthy now.

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Guess the Heat game where he went 6-7 on threes doesn't count. Or in the Thunder game when he went 5-9, including 2-3 on threes... both within the past month. But since we're restricting it to the last 3 big games, I guess you're right.

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Originally Posted by chazley

Guess the Heat game where he went 6-7 on threes doesn't count. Or in the Thunder game when he went 5-9, including 2-3 on threes... both within the past month. But since we're restricting it to the last 3 big games, I guess you're right.

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I meant he last three games! You know what I was saying there! This is March now and going into April, what has he done the last three or so games against them? I know last night he got 2-7 threes, thats not good but more than he has done lately.

LOL you guys still believe in this guy, prove me wrong the last 4 or so games and playoffs then we will talk.

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Originally Posted by Sean Cagney

I meant he last three games! You know what I was saying there! This is March now and going into April, what has he done the last three or so games against them? I know last night he got 2-7 threes, thats not good but more than he has done lately.

LOL you guys still believe in this guy, prove me wrong the last 4 or so games and playoffs then we will talk.

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You are not very smart.

Bonner is going to take a huge dump on all his haters when the playoffs come around, and none of these POS fucks like Sean Cagney will be around to see it. Because fat fucks like him only know how to talk shit, but when the shit goes the other way they are facing a shitstorm of shit in their face that they don't know how to deal with. Bonner, as the 8th rotation player, is fine. Sean Cagney will have a lot of shit on his face come playoff time, and then he (she/it) will never be heard from again and some other troll will be praising the Spurs offense for dominating other teams and it will be Sean Cagney in disguise. Dude is a tool, and a Splitter cock knobber.

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Originally Posted by Splitman4evah

Bonner is going to take a huge dump on all his haters when the playoffs come around, and none of these POS fucks like Sean Cagney will be around to see it. Because fat fucks like him only know how to talk shit, but when the shit goes the other way they are facing a shitstorm of shit in their face that they don't know how to deal with. Bonner, as the 8th rotation player, is fine. Sean Cagney will have a lot of shit on his face come playoff time, and then he (she/it) will never be heard from again and some other troll will be praising the Spurs offense for dominating other teams and it will be Sean Cagney in disguise. Dude is a tool, and a Splitter cock knobber.

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Smart people talk like that? lol