The Bonner/Blair frontcourt

A lot of us has complained about Pop using a Bonner/Blair frontcourt because of its weakness on the defensive end of the court. Stats backs up this claim:

With a Bonner/Blair frontcourt, Spurs are allowing 102.8 points per 48 minutes.
When Spurs have another frontcourt, Spurs are allowing 96.5 points per 48 minutes.

That's bad and it's even worst when you consider that Blair/Bonner plays again bench players who are often less offensively talented.

Pop has to stop using that frontcourt. It can't and will never work. Giving that much playing time to Bonner, and to a lesser extend Blair, could make sense, even if I disagree with it, but at least use them in a proper way. NEVER put them at the same time on the court.


FYI, the stats for some other frontcourt pairs:
Duncan/Blair: 95.5 pts allowed per 48 min.
Duncan/Bonner: 90.9 pts allowed per 48 min.
Duncan/McDyess: 92.2 pts allowed per 48 min.
McDyess/Bonner: 95.7 pts allowed per 48 min.
Splitter/Bonner: 95.5 pts allowed per 48 min.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

A lot of us has complained about Pop using a Bonner/Blair frontcourt because of its weakness on the defensive end of the court. Stats backs up this claim:

With a Bonner/Blair frontcourt, Spurs are allowing 102.8 points per 48 minutes.
When Spurs have another frontcourt, Spurs are allowing 96.5 points per 48 minutes.

That's bad and it's even worst when you consider that Blair/Bonner plays again bench players who are often less offensively talented.

Pop has to stop using that frontcourt. It can't and will never work. Giving that much playing time to Bonner, and to a lesser extend Blair, could make sense, even if I disagree with it, but at least use them in a proper way. NEVER put them at the same time on the court.


FYI, the stats for some other frontcourt pairs:
Duncan/Blair: 95.5 pts allowed per 48 min.
Duncan/Bonner: 90.9 pts allowed per 48 min.
Duncan/McDyess: 92.2 pts allowed per 48 min.
McDyess/Bonner: 95.7 pts allowed per 48 min.
Splitter/Bonner: 95.5 pts allowed per 48 min.

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Best defensive frontcourt is Dunca/Bonner tandem?! I would have expected Duncan/Dice or a combo of Dunca/Dice/Splitter.

What about on offense, do they at least make up for ppg allowed by scoring more? Both of those guys strenghts are on the offensive end.

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Originally Posted by Shifty

Best defensive frontcourt is Dunca/Bonner tandem?! I would have expected Duncan/Dice or a combo of Dunca/Dice/Splitter.

What about on offense, do they at least make up for ppg allowed by scoring more? Both of those guys strenghts are on the offensive end.

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It makes sense, especially this season b/c Tim is a legit defensive presence down low and Bonner draws the other big out of the paint with his 3pt shooting.

Blair/Bonner didn't work last season and I don't know why Pop is trying again. Bonner tries hard but he simple doesn't have the ability to play D. Bosh, Marion, Harrington, all those guys killed Bonner lately. Blair is very young and still make a lot of mistakes on rotations.

I hope we don't see them together in the playoffs

I can't believe Pop thought this frontcourt would work in the first place...

Should be erased from Pop's thought process - Blair and Novak briefly when going small but Blair and Bonner again - please no Pop!

I'm curious to know what Splitter/McDyess or Duncan/Splitter would average per 48 minutes.

Unfortunately we will never know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres

I'm curious to know what Splitter/McDyess or Duncan/Splitter would average per 48 minutes.

Unfortunately we will never know.

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Not for this season unfortunately.

Bruno, do you post as Bruno on the 48 Min of Hell blog comments? When I read those the name says Bruno but the writing style reads like ducks.

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Originally Posted by Whisky Dog

Bruno, do you post as Bruno on the 48 Min of Hell blog comments? When I read those the name says Bruno but the writing style reads like ducks.

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Nope, that's not me. I only post on ST.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Nope, that's not me. I only post on ST.

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Thank god, the rest of the interwebs is saved.

[QUOTE=Bruno;5077950]That's bad and it's even worst when you consider that Blair/Bonner plays again bench players who are often less offensively talented.

Pop has to stop using that frontcourt [QUOTE]

That is some mad truth there bruh :toast

What do ya know, even more proof Bonner is at bare minimum an average defender. and ROFL at some people who replied that just completely disregarded the stats and went on to say Bonner sucks on defense.

here are more glaring stats that the bonner/ blair frontcourt does not work and that Dice and Spliiter should be used more

For their last game vs Denver
Splitter and McDyess had the team lead in plus-minus scores with both at plus-11. Blair had the worst score in the game at minus-15. Bonner was minus-14.

Go figure, need I say more

Quote:

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Originally Posted by analyzed

here are more glaring stats that the bonner/ blair frontcourt does not work and that Dice and Spliiter should be used more

For their last game vs Denver
Splitter and McDyess had the team lead in plus-minus scores with both at plus-11. Blair had the worst score in the game at minus-15. Bonner was minus-14.

Go figure, need I say more

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Uh, I agree that Bonner/Blair is a bad pairing, but these stats are pretty irrelevant to that argument.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

A lot of us has complained about Pop using a Bonner/Blair frontcourt because of its weakness on the defensive end of the court. Stats backs up this claim:

With a Bonner/Blair frontcourt, Spurs are allowing 102.8 points per 48 minutes.
When Spurs have another frontcourt, Spurs are allowing 96.5 points per 48 minutes.

That's bad and it's even worst when you consider that Blair/Bonner plays again bench players who are often less offensively talented.

Pop has to stop using that frontcourt. It can't and will never work. Giving that much playing time to Bonner, and to a lesser extend Blair, could make sense, even if I disagree with it, but at least use them in a proper way. NEVER put them at the same time on the court.


FYI, the stats for some other frontcourt pairs:
Duncan/Blair: 95.5 pts allowed per 48 min.
Duncan/Bonner: 90.9 pts allowed per 48 min.
Duncan/McDyess: 92.2 pts allowed per 48 min.
McDyess/Bonner: 95.7 pts allowed per 48 min.
Splitter/Bonner: 95.5 pts allowed per 48 min.

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Pop knows all of this. The better combos will be used in the post-season.

For a preview on how the frontcourt rotations would work in the playoffs, the recent game at Dallas is very instructive. All the players were well rested and the coaching staff had ample time to prepare for an important game. Plus the game had almost zero garbage time to skew the numbers.

Frontcourt minutes were distributed as follows:

TD- 31:52
Dice- 29:10
Bonner- 18:47
Blair- 13:44
One big: 2:27 (the last 3 seconds of the 1st qtr after Bonner got his 2nd PF and the last 2:24 of the game when Pop took TD out with a 13 point lead. If the game had been closer, TD would have played that 2:24 and taken his minutes played to just over 34).

So, what were the minutes played for the various possible combinations of those four players?

TD/Dice- 18:08
TD/Bonner- 13:44 (notice that the first two combos account for all of TD's PT by using the two best defensive pairings as per the data in the OP)
Dice/Blair- 8:38
Blair/Bonner- 5:03
One big: 2:27

If TD plays 36 minutes, the Bonner/Blair minutes can just about disappear. The coaching staff knows how to limit that pairing and they will when the games matter more.

My favorite frontcourt in the league tbqh...









































By favorite, I mean whenever I see it, I wish someone would put a bullet through Pop's brains :lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mel_13

Pop knows all of this. The better combos will be used in the post-season.

For a preview on how the frontcourt rotations would work in the playoffs, the recent game at Dallas is very instructive. All the players were well rested and the coaching staff had ample time to prepare for an important game. Plus the game had almost zero garbage time to skew the numbers.

Frontcourt minutes were distributed as follows:

TD- 31:52
Dice- 29:10
Bonner- 18:47
Blair- 13:44
One big: 2:27 (the last 3 seconds of the 1st qtr after Bonner got his 2nd PF and the last 2:24 of the game when Pop took TD out with a 13 point lead. If the game had been closer, TD would have played that 2:24 and taken his minutes played to just over 34).

So, what were the minutes played for the various possible combinations of those four players?

TD/Dice- 18:08
TD/Bonner- 13:44 (notice that the first two combos account for all of TD's PT by using the two best defensive pairings as per the data in the OP)
Dice/Blair- 8:38
Blair/Bonner- 5:03
One big: 2:27

If TD plays 36 minutes, the Bonner/Blair minutes can just about disappear. The coaching staff knows how to limit that pairing and they will when the games matter more.

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Mel_13 bringing out the goods :toast

Reading that post was a huge relief.

You guys better pray Splitter plays balls out for the next few games because if McDyess remains a starter, Blair/Bonner will be the 2nd unit in the post. Pop has to have a floor spreading big on court at all times or his head will explode.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

With a Bonner/Blair frontcourt, Spurs are allowing 102.8 points per 48 minutes.
When Spurs have another frontcourt, Spurs are allowing 96.5 points per 48 minutes.

FYI, the stats for some other frontcourt pairs:
Duncan/Blair: 95.5 pts allowed per 48 min.
Duncan/Bonner: 90.9 pts allowed per 48 min.
Duncan/McDyess: 92.2 pts allowed per 48 min.
McDyess/Bonner: 95.7 pts allowed per 48 min.
Splitter/Bonner: 95.5 pts allowed per 48 min.

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I don't get it... how is the "everything but Bonner/Blair" 96.5 when the other 5 combos listed are at 91-96? So there's a combination somewhere missing that's at like 130 for 5, 10 minutes a game to pull the average up? Most of the potential combos are listed on there. I know Bonner/Blair aren't playing enough together to offset the 90.9 and 92.9 by themselves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by robino2001

I don't get it... how is the "everything but Bonner/Blair" 96.5 when the other 5 combos listed are at 91-96? So there's a combination somewhere missing that's at like 130 for 5, 10 minutes a game to pull the average up? Most of the potential combos are listed on there. I know Bonner/Blair aren't playing enough together to offset the 90.9 and 92.9 by themselves.

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Bruno's numbers are right.

Spurs have played 3423 minutes this season and given up 6910 points. Bonner/Blair have played 239 minutes together and the Spurs have given up 512 points during that time.

The rest is just math.

it sucks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by robino2001

I don't get it... how is the "everything but Bonner/Blair" 96.5 when the other 5 combos listed are at 91-96? So there's a combination somewhere missing that's at like 130 for 5, 10 minutes a game to pull the average up? Most of the potential combos are listed on there. I know Bonner/Blair aren't playing enough together to offset the 90.9 and 92.9 by themselves.

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Garbage time and small ball. IMO, garbage time is the biggest factor.

Spurs aren't doing well in garbage time. Udoka, Novak, Anderson, Splitter and Quinn all have negative +/-.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mel_13

Pop knows all of this. The better combos will be used in the post-season.
...

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Good point, let's hope you're right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mel_13

Bruno's numbers are right.

Spurs have played 3423 minutes this season and given up 6910 points. Bonner/Blair have played 239 minutes together and the Spurs have given up 512 points during that time.

The rest is just math.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Garbage time and small ball. IMO, garbage time is the biggest factor.

Spurs aren't doing well in garbage time. Udoka, Novak, Anderson, Splitter and Quinn all have negative +/-.

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Fair enough - I'm just surprised there is that many minutes able to skew the data that high - didn't really seem possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spurs Brazil

Blair/Bonner didn't work last season and I don't know why Pop is trying again. Bonner tries hard but he simple doesn't have the ability to play D. Bosh, Marion, Harrington, all those guys killed Bonner lately. Blair is very young and still make a lot of mistakes on rotations.

I hope we don't see them together in the playoffs

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Actually, that pairing was very successful in the regular season last year. In their 472 minutes together, the Spurs scored 111.4 pts/48 and gave up only 97.0/48.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Good point, let's hope you're right.

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Despite that regular season success, Pop played them together for just over 6 minutes per game in the post-season, with some of that in garbage time.

I agree this is a good indication of how Pop will use his bigs in the playoff. My only beef is I still think 19 minutes for Bonner is way to much, and 5 minutes of bonner and blair is still a no,no. They should not use this combo period, as in zero minutes come playoff time.

Not using Splitter at all does not sit well with me, yeah I realize at this point we won't be seeing a TD/Splitter combo at all. But when TD does rest, I can't see why a Splitter/ Dice combo won't be highly valuable , especially on the defensive end

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mel_13

Pop knows all of this. The better combos will be used in the post-season.

For a preview on how the frontcourt rotations would work in the playoffs, the recent game at Dallas is very instructive. All the players were well rested and the coaching staff had ample time to prepare for an important game. Plus the game had almost zero garbage time to skew the numbers.

Frontcourt minutes were distributed as follows:

TD- 31:52
Dice- 29:10
Bonner- 18:47
Blair- 13:44
One big: 2:27 (the last 3 seconds of the 1st qtr after Bonner got his 2nd PF and the last 2:24 of the game when Pop took TD out with a 13 point lead. If the game had been closer, TD would have played that 2:24 and taken his minutes played to just over 34).

So, what were the minutes played for the various possible combinations of those four players?

TD/Dice- 18:08
TD/Bonner- 13:44 (notice that the first two combos account for all of TD's PT by using the two best defensive pairings as per the data in the OP)
Dice/Blair- 8:38
Blair/Bonner- 5:03
One big: 2:27

If TD plays 36 minutes, the Bonner/Blair minutes can just about disappear. The coaching staff knows how to limit that pairing and they will when the games matter more.

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They could work to limit their minutes together, but then that's less time that Duncan-McDyess spend together. I'd like to see Duncan-McDyess play together, not exclusively, but almost in the playoffs. And they could do that if they inserted Splitter into the rotation.

Still, even if Blair-Bonner play five minutes together per game, they can get away with that against the Hornets, if they play them, but not only will that not cut it against the Lakers, it won't cut it against the Thunder, either. Against teams of that caliber, you can't afford to just throw five minutes per game in the garbage. Every minute needs to be valued, because of the slim margin of error.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TD 21

They could work to limit their minutes together, but then that's less time that Duncan-McDyess spend together. I'd like to see Duncan-McDyess play together, not exclusively, but almost in the playoffs. And they could do that if they inserted Splitter into the rotation.

Still, even if Blair-Bonner play five minutes together per game, they can get away with that against the Hornets, if they play them, but not only will that not cut it against the Lakers, it won't cut it against the Thunder, either. Against teams of that caliber, you can't afford to just throw five minutes per game in the garbage. Every minute needs to be valued, because of the slim margin of error.

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Dice played 247 minutes in the playoffs last season. He played 235 of those minutes with TD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

A lot of us has complained about Pop using a Bonner/Blair frontcourt because of its weakness on the defensive end of the court. Stats backs up this claim:

With a Bonner/Blair frontcourt, Spurs are allowing 102.8 points per 48 minutes.
When Spurs have another frontcourt, Spurs are allowing 96.5 points per 48 minutes.

That's bad and it's even worst when you consider that Blair/Bonner plays again bench players who are often less offensively talented.

Pop has to stop using that frontcourt. It can't and will never work. Giving that much playing time to Bonner, and to a lesser extend Blair, could make sense, even if I disagree with it, but at least use them in a proper way. NEVER put them at the same time on the court.


FYI, the stats for some other frontcourt pairs:
Duncan/Blair: 95.5 pts allowed per 48 min.
Duncan/Bonner: 90.9 pts allowed per 48 min.
Duncan/McDyess: 92.2 pts allowed per 48 min.
McDyess/Bonner: 95.7 pts allowed per 48 min.
Splitter/Bonner: 95.5 pts allowed per 48 min.

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Isn't it usually Bonner-Blair-Ginobili? I could see the logic in Pop playing this rotation a lot since he wants Manu to have options to distribute to Blair for the 2 or Bonner for the 3 (or take it on his own). That's 3 solid options on offense. That and we have no shot blocking big to sub in when Duncan's resting, so why not just play Suns ball

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mel_13

Dice played 247 minutes in the playoffs last season. He played 235 of those minutes with TD.

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Now that I think of it, it makes sense. Duncan playing 37 mpg allowed for that and allowed for Blair-Bonner to be used sparingly. But sparingly is too much and if they could, particularly early, it would be nice to keep Duncan below 36 mpg. They may not be able to get away with that, though. But they'd have a better chance if they had someone else in the rotation over 6-9, who can at least somewhat protect the rim. I realize Splitter is not a shot blocker, but he's still 6-11, mobile, makes timely rotations and is adept at drawing charges.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TD 21

Now that I think of it, it makes sense. Duncan playing 37 mpg allowed for that and allowed for Blair-Bonner to be used sparingly. But sparingly is too much and if they could, particularly early, it would be nice to keep Duncan below 36 mpg. They may not be able to get away with that, though. But they'd have a better chance if they had someone else in the rotation over 6-9, who can at least somewhat protect the rim. I realize Splitter is not a shot blocker, but he's still 6-11, mobile, makes timely rotations and is adept at drawing charges.

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I'd agree that Splitter/Bonner for those limited minutes is a better choice than Blair/Bonner.

Splitter has the opportunity right now to take Blair's role as Tim's backup for the playoffs. He's done reasonably well so far, let's see if he can build on that start.

Look, I like Bonner a lot and I like what he brings.

BUT GOD DAMN IT THIS FRONT COURT MAKES ME WANT TO KICK BABIES IN THE FACE.

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile...106_4908_n.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MannyIsGod

Look, I like Bonner a lot and I like what he brings.

BUT GOD DAMN IT THIS FRONT COURT MAKES ME WANT TO KICK BABIES IN THE FACE.

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile...106_4908_n.jpg

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True.

if Splitter isn't in the playoff rotation, i'm just going to say fuck the Spurs and use that time to study. team is going nowhere without Splitter in the rotation

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MannyIsGod

Look, I like Bonner a lot and I like what he brings.

BUT GOD DAMN IT THIS FRONT COURT MAKES ME WANT TO KICK BABIES IN THE FACE.

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile...106_4908_n.jpg

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I second that, this is starting to become the bonner, mason, bogans fiasco all over again. Who knew having just one of them left, could still derail the spurs. I underestimated the depths of fail, ginger is capable of.

lol 27% from three in last 11 games
lol fail at both ends of the court

You guys are too hard on the Bonner/Blair frontcourt, imo. Give it more time, I think it can work.

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Originally Posted by DeadlyDynasty

You guys are too hard on the Bonner/Blair frontcourt, imo. Give it more time, I think it can work.

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You're joking right?

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Originally Posted by DeadlyDynasty

You guys are too hard on the Bonner/Blair frontcourt, imo. Give it more time, I think it can work.

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You fail troll, NO ONE is that stupid.
Well....maybe pop.

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Originally Posted by Cessation

You fail troll, NO ONE is that stupid.
Well....maybe pop.

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In the end, that's all that matters, right?

You guys made a nice run. Sad to see it end.

Sad to see it end? Because of one three-game losing streak? It's funny how "this is the real season", but when the Lakers were laboring to the finish line last season, then this part of the season didn't matter. This is why you guys have zero credibility.