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Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
I guess those must have trickled down too...
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/gl...ice/index.html
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Of all the topics on which I've focused, I've likely written most about America's two-tiered justice system -- the way in which political and financial elites now enjoy virtually full-scale legal immunity for even the most egregious lawbreaking, while ordinary Americans, especially the poor and racial and ethnic minorities, are subjected to exactly the opposite treatment: the world's largest prison state and most merciless justice system.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
It's been this way for a while. If you're rich enough you can get away with murder here. Remember OJ?
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
OJ was prosecuted, though.
The inept LAPD highlighted by an N-word spewing cop didn't really help either.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
Wealthy, affluent people taking care of their own. No surprises here.
My favorite tidbit from this week - the N.Y. Times has an article on the statute reducing the absolutely absurd federal sentences imposed for crack convictions. By and large, this previously impacted African-American minorities, where crack use was more prominent. While Congress has amended the federal sentencing guidelines, the changes are not made expressly retroactive. Meaning that, even though Congress finally realized that this disparity in sentencing between regular cocaine and crack cocaine adversely affected a racial minority for no good reason, people will still be sentenced according to the old guidelines if they committed the offense before an arbitrary date. This leaves federal judges with their hands tied.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
This Greenwald guy is a fucking hack. This "article" is just a bunch of baseless assertions of criminal conduct - which laws did these financiers break, and how?
I'm not saying that crimes weren't committed or that people shouldn't be held responsible. But this article is fucking trash.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
What crimes do you think were committed?
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
I don't know. But I didn't write an article titled "Where Have all the Prosecutions Gone?"
What's your point?
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
No point, just curious. You assured us you weren't saying crimes weren't committed. Now you're waffling on that. That's ok with me.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
There's no waffling.
I'd also like to know whether the rich/politically powerful are committing the same crimes that make the US prison population dwarf those of other countries.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
vy65
There's no waffling.
I'd also like to know whether the rich/politically powerful are committing the same crimes that make the US prison population dwarf those of other countries.
I'm sure a lot of them possess and use illegal drugs, but I'm not sure that's what we're talking about here.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by vy65
There's no waffling.
Then feel free to name the crimes and substantiate them, as you demand others do.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
Winehole23
Then feel free to name the crimes and substantiate them, as you demand others do.
Why? I didn't write the article.
Why are you obfuscating the issue anyway?
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
Did greenwald not provide links?
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
LnGrrrR
OJ was prosecuted, though.
True.
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The inept LAPD highlighted by an N-word spewing cop didn't really help either.
Has nothing to do with OJ murdering his family.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
MannyIsGod
Did greenwald not provide links?
lol sure did
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Originally Posted by
One of Greenwald's Links
A group of 18 banks—which includes Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Morgan Stanley, J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., Bank of America Corp. and Citigroup Inc.—understated the debt levels used to fund securities trades by lowering them an average of 42% at the end of each of the past five quarterly periods, the data show. The banks, which publicly release debt data each quarter, then boosted the debt levels in the middle of successive quarters.
Excessive borrowing by banks was one of the major causes of the financial crisis, leading to catastrophic bank runs in 2008 at firms including Bear Stearns Cos. and Lehman Brothers. Since then, banks have become more sensitive about showing high levels of debt and risk, worried that their stocks and credit ratings could be punished.
That practice, while legal, can give investors a skewed impression of the level of risk that financial firms are taking the vast majority of the time.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
vy65
This Greenwald guy is a fucking hack. This "article" is just a bunch of baseless assertions of criminal conduct - which laws did these financiers break, and how?
I'm not saying that crimes weren't committed or that people shouldn't be held responsible. But this article is fucking trash.
So you think Alan Greenspan was lying then, where he's quoted in the article saying that much of the conduct was "certainly illegal and clearly criminal" and that "a lot of that stuff was just plain fraud."?
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
greyforest
Has nothing to do with OJ murdering his family.
Though it did have to something to do with the trial, IIRC.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
vy65
I'd also like to know whether the rich/politically powerful are committing the same crimes that make the US prison population dwarf those of other countries.
Using drugs = bad
Destroying our economy = ok
Torturing terrorist suspects = ok
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LnGrrrR
So you think Alan Greenspan was lying then, where he's quoted in the article saying that much of the conduct was "
certainly illegal and clearly criminal"
and that "
a lot of that stuff was just plain fraud."?
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Originally Posted by
LnGrrrR
Using drugs = bad
Destroying our economy = ok
Torturing terrorist suspects = ok
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Originally Posted by
me
I'm not saying that crimes weren't committed or that people shouldn't be held responsible. But this article is fucking trash.
The article is poorly argued. He:
1) doesn't explain which statutes were violated, the facts surrounding their violation, and why the AUSA's dropped/never initiated a prosecution due to the alleged defendant's wealth.
2) the only link that isn't a warrantless assertion contradicts his entire article.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
I could honestly give a shit if Greenwald is a good writer. I am more concerned with the points he makes. Perhaps we should focus on those.
Eliott Spitzer, someone quite familliar with this type of law and the prosecution of crimes in this sector, does't seem to think that these accusations are warrarntless. Why is that?
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
vy65
The article is poorly argued. He:
1) doesn't explain which statutes were violated, the facts surrounding their violation, and why the AUSA's dropped/never initiated a prosecution due to the alleged defendant's wealth.
So then you feel that Alan Greenspan WAS lying when he said there was fraud committed. Ok.
Also, did you miss that little section about how the criminal probe was dropped against the Countrywide CEO?
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Originally Posted by
vy65
2) the only link that isn't a warrantless assertion contradicts his entire article.
Considering the article was displaying the dichotomy between how the "rich" tend to get away with lawbreaking (for instance, the retroactive telecom immunity laws) while the "poor" are being jailed in greater numbers here than worldwide for more and more inane reasons, I think his point is still valid.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
Rich white people can't possibly be bad people, so we shouldn't put them in prison. They're just doing their jobs. Mistakes happen. Prison is for druggies and people who steal stereos.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
Oj wasn't convicted because of too many holes in the physical evidence, such as the tainted blood samples...and the glove.....
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
Spurminator
Rich white people can't possibly be bad people, so we shouldn't put them in prison. They're just doing their jobs. Mistakes happen. Prison is for druggies and people who steal stereos.
Let's start with the entire Bush Administration for starting an illegal war of aggression...
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
vy65
Why? I didn't write the article.
Like Greenwald, you suggested crimes were committed. Like Greenwald, you have offered no substantiation, nor have you been willing to name the crimes committed. Either your reasoning sucks, or your disclaimer is fertilizer.
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Originally Posted by vy65
Why are you obfuscating the issue anyway?
Obfuscating what? Say whatever you want. I'm not in your way.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
Winehole23
Like Greenwald, you suggested crimes were committed. Like Greenwald, you have offered no substantiation, nor have you been willing to name the crimes committed. Either your reasoning sucks, or your disclaimer is fertilizer.
Unlike Greenwald, I didn't write an article considering the lack of prosecutions. I'm more than willing to believe that criminal activity occured - but his article does not contain sufficient evidence. Why does my caveat require me to offer proof again?
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Originally Posted by
Winehole23
Obfuscating what? Say whatever you want. I'm not in your way.
From a legal standpoint, his article is poorly argued. Your non-sequiters about my need to attest to crimes detracts focus from the point -- that his "article" is lazy.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
LnGrrrR
So then you feel that Alan Greenspan WAS lying when he said there was fraud committed. Ok.
Also, did you miss that little section about how the criminal probe was dropped against the Countrywide CEO?
Not at all. But do you think his article is well-reasoned from a legal standpoint?
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Originally Posted by
LnGrrrR
Considering the article was displaying the dichotomy between how the "rich" tend to get away with lawbreaking (for instance, the retroactive telecom immunity laws) while the "poor" are being jailed in greater numbers here than worldwide for more and more inane reasons, I think his point is still valid.
Sure. I just don't think his article does a good job explaining that.
I honestly have no idea why you're fighting with me on this.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
MannyIsGod
I could honestly give a shit if Greenwald is a good writer. I am more concerned with the points he makes. Perhaps we should focus on those.
Eliott Spitzer, someone quite familliar with this type of law and the prosecution of crimes in this sector, does't seem to think that these accusations are warrarntless. Why is that?
So you're ok with lazy academic writing?
Why's Eliott Spitzer relevant to this article?
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
vy65
So you're ok with lazy academic writing?
Why's Eliott Spitzer relevant to this article?
Academic writing? This is an internet article posted on a left leaning site. Its not a peer reviewed article/study. In fact, I'd argue the article is nothing more than an advertisement for Greenwald's book. In no way shape or form would I ever think of assigning the label academic writing to a glorified political blog post.
Eliott Spitzer is relevant to the content of the article for many reasons including his experience as a prosecuter in the jurisdiction that handles Wall Street and his comments in recent history concerning crimes and the lack of prosecution of the financial sector.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
vy65
Why does my caveat require me to offer proof again?
Reciprocity. You demanded proof of others.
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Originally Posted by vy65
From a legal standpoint, his article is poorly argued. Your non-sequiters about my need to attest to crimes detracts focus from the point -- that his "article" is lazy.
On the contrary, you're repeating yourself again. The focus is clear but your mind seems to have come to a full stop before it. That's hardly my fault.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
Also, the content of the article is largely about investigations being stopped and killed or just flat out refusal to conduct them so to say that he doesn't present evidence on these allegations of wrongdoing when there are active efforts to prevent any such evidence from being found is some very very bad circular logic.
I don't think you need to compare these situations to the epidemic of jailing poorer people (especially minorities) because I do think that both situations have different causes if not one very related one (the amount of political power possessed by those with more money as to the amount of influence possessed by those with no money.) but I can also see how helping point out the situation helps in bringing light to both issues.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
Arguing that his article is poorly argued from a legal standpoint is hilarious, though. We often talk about being tried in the press but the fact remains that Salon.com is far from a court of law so the standards you're using are curious.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
It is like when Yoni and WC argue that no wrongdoing occurred because there was no criminal conviction.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
MannyIsGod
Arguing that his article is poorly argued from a legal standpoint is hilarious, though. We often talk about being tried in the press but the fact remains that Salon.com is far from a court of law so the standards you're using are curious.
Why is that? He's making a legal claim (crimes have been committed, but prosecutions are not occuring). Why's it outlandish to ask for an explanation of the law and how the crime has been committed? Just because it's on Salon.com, the guy should get a pass? Maybe your right that I expect too much from a Salon.com article - but if the author makes a legal claim - it's reasonable to expect that he should back it up with more than blurbs and sound bites.
Also, knowing more about the crime, the facts, and the penalties would either make his point more persuasive (like you said, the fact that prosecutions are being dropped) or more retarded (like how one of his links flat out says the conduct in question was legal).
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
Winehole23
It is like when Yoni and WC argue that no wrongdoing occurred because there was no criminal conviction.
(burp)
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
vy65
Why is that? He's making a legal claim (crimes have been committed, but prosecutions are not occuring). Why's it outlandish to ask for an explanation of the law and how the crime has been committed? Just because it's on Salon.com, the guy should get a pass? Maybe your right that I expect too much from a Salon.com article - but if the author makes a legal claim - it's reasonable to expect that he should back it up with more than blurbs and sound bites.
Also, knowing more about the crime, the facts, and the penalties would either make his point more persuasive (like you said, the fact that prosecutions are being dropped) or more retarded (like how one of his links flat out says the conduct in question was legal).
He could be more persuasive with more information but its a short article not a legal brief.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
"Why's Eliott Spitzer relevant to this article?"
Spitzer as reviled by Wall St, as "the sheriff of Wall St", until Wall St got dubya's corrupt DoJ take Spitzer down. Spitzer was able to get Greenberg out of AIG, and Spitzer was on the right trail there as AIG was screwed up and cost taxpayer's $10Bs. Spitzer certainly knows a lot about Wall St's crime and criminals.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
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Originally Posted by
MannyIsGod
Arguing that his article is poorly argued from a legal standpoint is hilarious, though. We often talk about being tried in the press but the fact remains that Salon.com is far from a court of law so the standards you're using are curious.
Alas, the readers of Salon are mostly cold to that distinction. Many posters here as well.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
Considering that he has a book coming out soon, I'm relatively sure that Greenwald will go into more depth there.
And you keep disregarding his mentions of both the Telecom Immunity Act and the criminal probe of the Countrywide CEO.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
Countywide was definitely a target for prosecution. The mortgage fraud they committed was extensive and its a fucking shame they don't go after these people.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
Wells Fargo I think paid a huge civil fine along these lines recently. The civil side is still active.
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Re: Where Have All the Prosecutions Gone?
The civil side is undoubtedly a place where because the burden of proof is easier and it doesn't rely on government officials acting that you're going to see action. If I was put into a mortgage that was sub prime unecessarily you bet your ass I would sue - especially when the actions were as systematic as they were with these companies.
Too bad the prosecutors are too busy keeping us safe from online poker.
