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IF it was an offensive foul, and IF it was the turning point in the game, it's only because Detroit made it a turning point. As someone here said in another thread, you have to play through calls like that and not lose your head. We can WHAT-IF ourselves to death, but it doesn't change what actually happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace ²
I guess it was a fair trade off for that offensive foul call on Tim when Wallace ran up to him and flopped earlier. This kind of thing happens both ways in games. There is no real complaining to be done, just play through the best you can.
I wish that all sports would get rid of flopping. Iverson does it all the time, and so do most other players in the NBA. It irritates me. There were 2 good examples in game 1. When Hunter charged on Manu. That was a charge, but not to the extent that Manu made it look. And this play that we are talking about, the Ben/Manu debate.
You mention that it was a turning point because the Spurs went up 5, but Wallace was the one that lost his cool and got the tech to give the extra shot. If Wallace doesn't lose his cool, maybe the Spurs only go up 4, or Detroit makes a stand - and goes back to tie it up. Either way - your in the Finals, and it s no time to pull that crap by either of the Wallaces. Therefore - Wallace losing his cool would be more of a turning point then the "no call".....
I would agree. As a purist, it bugs me when Manu does it...even though it usually brings good results. Ben Wallace is too good of a defender to have to rely on flopping. That first foul call on Duncan in the 1Q, you would have thought some shot Ben from the upper deck. But at least TD is close to his size.....Manu is 3 inches shorter and 35 pounds lighter...no way he knocks Big Ben down! The dude is made of granite. The Lord shot a thunderbolt in the side of a mountain, busted out a chunk of rock and thus was born Ben Wallace!Quote:
I wish that all sports would get rid of flopping. Iverson does it all the time, and so do most other players in the NBA. It irritates me. There were 2 good examples in game 1. When Hunter charged on Manu. That was a charge, but not to the extent that Manu made it look. And this play that we are talking about, the Ben/Manu debate.
Perfectly put. I thought Parker got mugged in the first quarter three times with no call.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo
It most definitely was a charge on Manu! But we could do the what ifs till the cows come calling. I mean really what if the Queen had balls...well I guess she would be the King then ehh! :smokin
Centers don't flop above the free throw line.
It's unseemly.
I thought it was a charge, but I was surprised how Wallace reacted to it. First off, if he didn't flop, there would have been no foul called (perhaps this is the way the refs try to discourage flops), second, if he didn't went apeshit, there would be no tech called.
But I am just so so so glad to have Pistons fans come in and act like real men, I suppose that's what a championship brings to their fans, confidence and knowledge.
I actually like this board a lot better than the Pistons board. There are a lot more debates in here, rather than the "my team is better than yours...." Since the Pistons won the championship, the board has been flooded with bandwagon fans who dont know jack about the other teams in the NBA but think they know everything. It gets really annoying most of the time. Spurs fans are good and can carry on a debate without saying stupid things.Quote:
Originally Posted by ambchang
SOME Spurs fans are that way, you'd be surprised to see how many dumbasses enter even this forum. Don't be discouraged if you find a moron in here that just wants to insult you rather than to have an intelligent conversation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace ²
Stick around, we'll make you eat those words...:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Wallace ²
I think the turning around point was much earlier, back in the 1st. There was a fastbreak w/ TP getting easy points; it was like a light turned on and a huge obelisk was placed on the court a la 2001 A Space Odyssey. Hey - we don't have to play all half court, we can actually run on the other half!
The game tempo changed some on the Spurs end of the floor after that, and the game 7 fatigue caught up to the Pistons in the 4th.
I thought Manu running into Ben should have been a charge. Manu was involved in another almost charge on one of his basket attacks, but the Detroit defender was just stepping out of the circle. I think the refs couldn't decide whose foul that was.
Turning point though? The turning point was that Manu stepped it up and the Pistons defense didn't.
It was a flop, but still a charge. I agree with Chump, a center can't be flopping above the 3pt line and expect to get a call against a slender guard.
Tony and Manu got absolutely mugged at the rim for the first 3 quarters, so I feel no need to be sympathetic to Piston fans.
It was one of those fouls to where since we were playing at home, it went our way. If we were in Detroit, it probably would have gone to the Pistons.
I thought it was a bad call, but the ensuing Pistons collapse was all on them. This is the second time I've seen them fall apart after questionable calls in these Playoffs, and I haven't watched half of their Playoff games.
Ben was flopping, trying to get charges all night long. He musta done it 5 or 6 times. Going to the well too often mighta hurt him when a real charge happened.
Yes, I think it was a bad call, but, christ...the ONLY reason that call was a turning point...is because DETROIT let it be. The freakin' imploded after that. There were several bad calls, going BOTH ways, earlier in the game...and yes, the charge "inside" the arc was just "one" of them.
The non-charging call on Manu was only a turning point because DT freaked out over it. It's ONE lousy call. Now DT fans are also goin' a li'l nuts over it. Ya'll letting it get to your "their-out-to-get-us-and-no-respect-for-us" heads.
It's the FINALS...refs gonna let them play. Get over it. And BEN...stay on your freakin' feet! Quit flopping "hoping" the refs are gonna give you calls...this is the FINALS, don't rely on the calls...and don't let a call destroy your entire team.
And that goes for fans too. The more you focus on it, the more your gonna keep focusing on it, and the more your TEAM will focus on it. And if that happens, and you get another bad call, the players will think they are justified in going off about it.
Then, say goodbye to the championship.
THAT was a charge, but the call was made as a makeup for the pushing and bumping the refs missed two seconds previous. Ben got away with a hard shove on Manu, the refs didn't call it, so when a block/charge happened, the refs went with Manu. You can't mug a guy 30 feet from the basket for 10 seconds and not expect to have that called a block.
Well after watching the game last nite and rewatching the 4th quarter this morning I got to see that play in slo mo using the tivo quite a few times. To me in real time I think it was a tough call.
It looked to me that there wasn't enough contact to cause ben to fall down in real time. His flop made the refs call the play one way or the other. It just went against the pistons. The flop was clearly there to see when I watched it over a few times. Was it the turning point in the game? IMO no the pistons battled back and were playing some good defense but nothin was stopping manu in that 4th quarter.
IMO if ben didn't flop there would have been a no call. There was some contact but not enough to warrant a foul either way.
His technical didn't help his cause either.
I think it was clearly a charge. On the other hand, Ben flopped so badly that I think the refs didn't want to reward him. He should take lessons from Manu. :lol
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Originally Posted by duncan_21
I haven't rewatched the play today but when I replayed the original angle last night it looked like Ben stuck his right arm out into Manu's path. You really couldn't see that from the replays that were shown but the ref would have had a good angle on it. You can't do that if you're trying to take a charge and I think that's what swayed the call to a block.
Anyone else with the game recorded might take a look at the play as it happened again and see what you think.
I believe I know which play you were referring to. Manu made the bucket and no foul called, right? The defender had his heel on the line, and his feet shifted, so it would be a block if it was called, but since Manu made that basket and the contact came after the ball left Manu's hand, the refs are not going to call it.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurster
Oh, and all this talk about the turning point. If the Pistons actually went on to win the game, we will be hearing how that bad call fired up the Pistons and allowed them to concentrate and focus to prove the world wrong. In other words, turning points are overrated, they are just there to dramatize an otherwise unassuming moment.
Ben flopped period. Come on, he is used to guarding Shaq, and Manu is gonna drop him like that???
Word.Quote:
Originally Posted by nkdlunch