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Javie missed the call. I don't know if it really changed the outcome of who wins the game. The Spurs won every quarter except the first and were really strong after the 17-4 start.
I also thought Ronnie missed a out-of-bounds call in favor of the Spurs with Tim standing there getting a rebound and a Piston clearly knocked the ball out. I also thought the Spurs (and Tim) got the raw end of a jump ball in their offensive end when the ball was tossed up and to the right where only Ben could reach it. It ended up being a big stop for Detroit at the time.
I think there were a few blown calls in favor of the Spurs, but by and large, especially the first half, I thought the pistons were allowed to grab, slap, and push a lot more than the Spurs were allowed to touch.
Firstly, I'll say that the call could have gone either way, though Ben certainly 1) bowed his knees and leaned a bit and 2) flopped.
Lastly, Ben set himself up for a foul. Immediately after the screen that resulted in Ben switching onto Manu, Manu penetrated and Ben obviously committed a blocking foul on him that the refs KNEW they should have called but didn't.
Which all went to set up the whole controversy which shouldn't even be a controversy. Ginobilli penetrated again, Ben leaned in a smidge and flopped, and the refs made a make up call.
Yeah, and Manu didn't flop from the little elbow Lindsay gave him?Quote:
Ben flopped period. Come on, he is used to guarding Shaq, and Manu is gonna drop him like that???
It was a bad call, and Ben reacted because it was the second horrible call to go against him. The other one was when they called a charge on Ben when Nazr was about 2 feet inside the circle. Just two ridiculous calls. (The other one on Manu taking it to the rim when he plowed into Ben was probably a good no call. Ben's heel was on the circle and the contact wasn't direct.)
However, as a number of people said, while it was a momentum swing, it certainly isn't the reason the Pistons lost that game. Manu getting to the rim and the Spurs offensive rebounding were the key to this game. As was the horrible shooting of Antonio McDyess. The Pistons will not beat the Spurs if McDyess is going to miss open short jumper after open short jumper.
And I think the Spurs were allowed to clutch and grab just as much in the 2nd. I'm not really complaining about the officiating though. Except for a few obviously blown calls, I thought the refs did a pretty good job of letting the teams play. And the Spurs were just more aggressive in the 4th.Quote:
I think there were a few blown calls in favor of the Spurs, but by and large, especially the first half, I thought the pistons were allowed to grab, slap, and push a lot more than the Spurs were allowed to touch.
If a little exaggerating of contact "flopping" is so horrible how do people feel about a little clearing out, pushing off with the off arm a la MJ, Kobe, Pierce, Allen, etc. to get space to shoot or throw the defender off balance to get by him? Is that okay? Or the little bump, enough to throw the shot off? Should player just take it like a man, let the other player get the advantage and beat him or should he accentuate the contact to try to draw the foul?
Personally I think a little "flopping" is fine. No worse than many other tricks that are used. Now when you have a Fortson falling down when Parker comes within five feet of him, that's another story.
well my analysis ... Wallace bumped him before he that play... the refs missed it... Ginobili then decided to bump him again... dude the guy was just standing there and Manu decide to just smash him... man he knew he was gonna get the call :) pistons were getting away with a lot of hip check that one was payback
and oh Ben flopped too!
You're depending on McDyess making shots?? How about Hamilton or 'Sheed. Pistons lost 'cause we shut you down offensively, not like you guys are a marvel offensively, but 69 points ain't gonna be enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by MainEvent
MainEvent...
well i'll try to reason out why the refs called that offensive (Ben on Nazr)
i think it could've gone both ways.
the way Ben wallace leaned unto Nazr was crazy... he was like 45 degrees if he did it the way Manu does it (horizontal leap, close to vertical body) he'll get that call 10/10 times. but Ben decided to go shoulder first.. i guess that's why
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... you lost because McDyess wasn't making his shots... it couldn't have been because Sheed had only 6 points instead of the usual 14, or the fact that Hamilton made only 7 of his 21 shots and then had to surgically remove Bowen from his ass. Ofcourse not! McDyess is the KEY!Quote:
Originally Posted by MainEvent
Did you guys even read my post? I said they lost because Manu was getting to the rima and the Spurs were killing us on offensive rebounds AND that McDyess not knocking down shots hurt as well. In this game, McDyess had numerous 10-15 foot jumpers that are his specialty and he bricked them all. The Pistons needed his scoring in this game and he wasn't delivering. Rasheed and Rip playing better is also a huge key. But the reason McDyess stuck out so much was because he was missing those jumpers that are his bread and butter. Hopefully it was just Finals game 1 jitters.
That's a nice rationale, but the rule is that if the defender is inside the circle then it can't be a charge. Nazr was practically under the basket. Maybe it could have been a no-call, but I think there was too much contact NOT to call something. And in that situation you just can't call a charge.Quote:
MainEvent...
well i'll try to reason out why the refs called that offensive (Ben on Nazr)
i think it could've gone both ways.
the way Ben wallace leaned unto Nazr was crazy... he was like 45 degrees if he did it the way Manu does it (horizontal leap, close to vertical body) he'll get that call 10/10 times. but Ben decided to go shoulder first.. i guess that's why
That was a big play and it certainly seemed to change the momentum towards our favor, but I think the turning point in the game came early in the game, when Horry and Parker trapped Hunter and forced a turnover that ended with a Big Dog dunk. That play energized the Spurs defensive efforts and they controlled the tempo from that point on. You could tell when the game started it looked like the Spurs had forgotten there was finals game on, and the Pistons were bringing it. But that point on, everything started falling apart for the Pistons. They brought in Arroyo and he made some mental mistakes, the calls started going against the Pistons, with Prince and Rasheed getting into foul trouble, and it just got worse for them and better for the Spurs.
No one is denying that Manu flopped but Ben? He is too good of a defender to do that. He went down faster than a cheerleader on prom night. "sis, boom, mmmff"Quote:
Yeah, and Manu didn't flop from the little elbow Lindsay gave him?
Spurs defense played great last night too. You didn't see the Pistons swing the ball around the court to the open man as much as they usually do because the Spurs did a great job of getting in the passing lanes and deflecting a lot of passes.
Prince has definitely begun to shy away from contact, not going strong to the rim the last couple of series. I don't know if his body has worn down or if he's gotten tenative because of a perceived lack of foul calls. He needs to take that ball to the rack and force the refs to make a call, similar to what Ginobil does when he drives.
Don't know how many times I have to post this. I think this will be the last time though.Quote:
Originally Posted by MainEvent
Quote:
An offensive foul should never be called if the contact is with a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position within a designated "restricted area" near the basket for the purpose of drawing an offensive foul.
The "restricted area" for this purpose is the area bounded by an arc with a 4-foot radius measured from the middle of the basket.
EXCEPTION: Any player may be legally positioned within the "restricted area" if the offensive player receives the ball within the Lower Defensive Box.
What is considered the lower defensive box? Lower than the last block on the key????
orhe
Check my post. We both know what's going on.
I've never seen that exception before and never heard anyone talk about it before. Not sure that it applies anyway. IIRC, Ben drove from just outside the lane, maybe the baseline, so I don't know if that qualifies as the "lower defensive box" or not. My guess is that exception referring to a player that is posting a defender up, the defender already has a foot or two in the circle and the offensive player isn't allowed to just turn and knock them over on their way to the rim, even if they are inside the circle (well, anybody except Shaq, that is).
same sentiments with mia.
You can draw a charging foul even while positioned inside the restricted circle. As pointed out by other posters it depends on the position of the offensive player. If someone is coming in from outside the paint on a drive, then the basic restricted circle rule applies. But if the offensive player is right under the basket, he can commit an offensive foul. Examples of this would be, lowering a shoulder into the defender, swinging elbows, or even using the hips or lower body to knock a defender out of position.
EDIT: There can also be a foul called on use of an "off arm" of the offensive player to shield the ball from the defender by making contact with the defender's body or arms.
I'm not 100% sure but I believe it's anywhere below the free throw line that's within 15 feet of the basket.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace ˛
Here are the official rules.
http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_c....av=ArticleList
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BLOCK-CHARGE
A defensive player is permitted to establish a legal guarding position in the path of a dribbler regardless of his speed and distance.
A defensive player is not permitted to move into the path of an offensive play-er once he has started his shooting motion.
A defensive player must allow a moving player the distance to stop or change direction when the offensive player receives a pass outside the lower defensive box.
A defensive player must allow an alighted player the distance to land and then stop or change direction when the offensive player is outside the lower defensive box.
A defensive player is permitted to establish a legal guarding position in the path of an offensive player who receives a pass inside the lower defensive box regardless of his speed and distance.
A defensive player must allow an alighted player who receives a pass the space to land when the offensive player is inside the lower defensive box.
A defensive player must allow a moving offensive player without the ball the distance to stop or change direction.
The speed of the offensive player will determine the amount of distance a defensive player must allow.
If an offensive player causes contact with a defensive player who has estab-lished a legal position, an offensive foul shall be called and no points may be scored.
A defensive player may turn slightly to protect himself, but is never allowed to bend over and submarine an opponent.
An offensive foul should never be called if the contact is with a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position within a designated "restricted area" near the basket for the purpose of drawing an offensive foul.
The "restricted area" for this purpose is the area bounded by an arc with a 4-foot radius measured from the middle of the basket.
EXCEPTION: Any player may be legally positioned within the "restricted area" if the offensive player receives the ball within the Lower Defensive Box.
The mere fact that contact occurs on these type of plays, or any other similar play, does not necessarily mean that a personal foul has been committed. The offi-cials must decide whether the contact is negligible and/or incidental, judging each situation separately.
http://www.nba.com/media/court2.gif
Here is basic pic of the court and the layout. It doesn't however define the term in question.
Are you implying that a good defender should get that call and a great one shouldn't? :spinQuote:
Originally Posted by samikeyp
Bingo. That's the turning point right there. It took a long time for the Spurs to shake off the rust, but the Pistons couldn't put us away because of our defense. That trap and dunk changed the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by pjjrfan