The Spurs Biggest Liability: Beno Udrih

Let me preface this with the fact that I love Beno. I think he's going to be a very solid player in this leauge, and has incredible court vision. He's also hit several big shots for us in the playoffs this season.

Now, with that said, I would not be upset one bit if I didn't see Beno for the rest of the playoffs. While no single Spur ever causes a loss, he was a big factor in the momentum changing at the end of the 3rd quater in last nights game.

But flash back to Game 1 against Denver back in April when these playoffs had just started. And try to think what the turning point in that game was. It was the end of the 2nd quater when in the span of a minute Beno commited several turnovers that led to quick and easy buckets.

We faced almost the exact same situation last night in Detroit. And it has occoured at other times in these playoffs - even this series. And this is not to knock the shooting that Beno brings, because he does bring much to the table in that regards.

But as a backup point guard, he has show a huge susceptibility to the trap. Other teams salivate at the end of quaters knowing that Beno is coming into a game. And those are the key points in which a team can either make a huge run to open a game up, or get back into the game after a bad quater. The closeout of quaters is HUGE!

I hope that we see much less of Udrih at the end of quaters. Manu is capable of bringing the ball up, as is Barry, and at this point their ability to break the press is far more valuable than shooting Beno brings.

Beno needs to sit for the rest of the playoffs.

Beno was not the problem. Lindsay should be the focal point.

Yeah.

I think you are right on. I also think this sort of thing will wane as time goes on. I'd prefer to see Beno in the middle of quarters, if we must see him.

Until we turned it off, the phrase, fuckenbaynooodray, was being muttered with great consistency by me.

thats why the beno milita lasted but a few months

Barry had a costly turnover during that same stretch. Putting Beno and Barry in at the same time to close a quarter was not smart.

Beno = Arroyo. From now on, he should be on the floor only when Arroyo is in.

beno is going to make mistakes because he's a rookie. (in this league) i would even go farther and say that in the denver series, there were several times when he looked lost. he looked over at pop time after time, because earl boykins was giving him fits on both ends of the court. but he adjusted pretty well... he'll adjust again because he's shown he can do what the coaches ask of him.

This has been addressed before in these playoffs. I thought Beno handled himself well in Games 1 & 2. Credit to the Pistons for springing the trap immediately when he came into the game in the last minute of the 3rd. I thought Pop should've immediately called a timeout after the 1st turnover. That would've gotten the rock to halfcourt plus killed a little bit of the Pistons' momentum, but I've forgotten what the timeout status of the team was at that point.

Still, Beno has been shaky at times this season in bringing the rock up against pressure.

Yeah, its a shame when Manu has to man the point late in the game because Beno is playing like the flaming f-ing rook he is. He needs to settle the hell down and watch about 8 hours of film today, run through some passing and ballhandling drills Thursday morning, then suit the f- up and get ready to contribute a mere solid 10 minutes.

Manny, I also said the same thing as you. Most people talked about Tim and Manu's off games, but I really thought Beno's horrible few minute stretch in the third was a killer.

Well, Tim and Manu playing like ass both are huge contributors to a loss. But in almost every loss - regardless of the margin - you can always point to a play or series of plays that causes momentum to swing and starts the run. And everyone knows, once you get on a run, shots are much easier to hit. Those momentum swings are killer.

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Originally Posted by GrandeDavid

Manny, I also said the same thing as you. Most people talked about Tim and Manu's off games, but I really thought Beno's horrible few minute stretch in the third was a killer.

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The last minute of the 3rd was a key point in the game. Beno struggled, but I think some of the onus is on Pop for not countering it with a quick timeout. Plus it's not like Beno was the only one who fucked up. Barry fucking looked like he handed the rock to McDyess during that sequence...

I knew this thread was coming.

Manny- you were much more fair than I expected.

However I don't agree that Beno should sit out for the rest of the play offs.

He didn't help the situation last night, but as Manny pointed out, Beno didn't singlehandedly lose the game for us.

If we benched everyone who played badly in game 3 , we would be left with about a five man rotation.

Beno has made some rookie mistakes. But for the most part, has handled himself very well. Benji adds legitimate depth to our bench and provides Tony with much needed opportunites to rest. (Manu is amazing, but even he can't do it all.)

I believe he will continiue to develop and come through, if given the chance.

Beno doesn't play enough to be the biggest liability.

I don't think anyone is a liability really. Barry played a good game last night. I think everyone that plays good minutes for the Spurs are really contributors in one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

Beno doesn't play enough to be the biggest liability.

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I disagree, he plays enough to cause huge momentum swings.

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

Beno doesn't play enough to be the biggest liability.

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I disagree, he is our backup PG. PG is a special position where just a couple fuckups and it's huge!

I have to agree with Manny and nk. Beno must play some quality minutes, solid, error free minutes, as Tony's backup. Beno will not win games nor lose games, single-handedly, but he is capable of contributing to losses. I agree that Pop maybe should've called a timeout, that Manu should've hit that open three in the fourth, that Duncan, Nazr, Horry etc. should've been more aggressive on the boards in the 4th, that Horry should at least hit rim on a crucial late three...so you can't pin this exclusively on Beno. Not even close. But he really did contribute to a huge momentum swing, undeniably.

He just needs to come in and bring the ball up, fill in the gap while Tony is resting. Having said that, we are in trouble if Tony decides to have subpar games from here on out. But, thank God, he won't. ;)

I was hoping they wouldn't Hunter on him and press him, he's shown all season if he's pressed he will turn the ball over. And you just can't have that with your PG, starting our backup. That 2 min streatch was painful.

man... i really think me not watching the finals at home is jinxing the spurs...
maybe i should cut my classes on monday... and watch game 5 :)

It's Pop's fault for using him at the end of quarters. At the end of quarters is when opponents really press. Beno can't handle the press at all and Pop should know that by now. If Tony must rest at the end of quarters, then it should be Barry and Manu in the backcourt. Beno's steady hand saved the Spurs a lot in Game 2, so calling him out after Game 3 is pretty weak. You can't say he shouldn't play for the rest of the playoffs; he should just be better utilized.

cut him some slack... for a rookie i would say hes doing pretty damn good... but i would agree with some of you that beno is a noob when it comes to knowing what to do with the ball sometimes... i just cant find it in me to hate him though... i have a soft spot for slovenian players

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Originally Posted by MannyIsGod

Let me preface this with the fact that I love Beno. I think he's going to be a very solid player in this leauge, and has incredible court vision. He's also hit several big shots for us in the playoffs this season.

Now, with that said, I would not be upset one bit if I didn't see Beno for the rest of the playoffs. While no single Spur ever causes a loss, he was a big factor in the momentum changing at the end of the 3rd quater in last nights game.

But flash back to Game 1 against Denver back in April when these playoffs had just started. And try to think what the turning point in that game was. It was the end of the 2nd quater when in the span of a minute Beno commited several turnovers that led to quick and easy buckets.

We faced almost the exact same situation last night in Detroit. And it has occoured at other times in these playoffs - even this series. And this is not to knock the shooting that Beno brings, because he does bring much to the table in that regards.

But as a backup point guard, he has show a huge susceptibility to the trap. Other teams salivate at the end of quaters knowing that Beno is coming into a game. And those are the key points in which a team can either make a huge run to open a game up, or get back into the game after a bad quater. The closeout of quaters is HUGE!

I hope that we see much less of Udrih at the end of quaters. Manu is capable of bringing the ball up, as is Barry, and at this point their ability to break the press is far more valuable than shooting Beno brings.

Beno needs to sit for the rest of the playoffs.

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i think this is the first time i ever agreed with manny... beno has done this shit too, too, too many fucking times!

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

It's Pop's fault for using him at the end of quarters. At the end of quarters is when opponents really press. Beno can't handle the press at all and Pop should know that by now. If Tony must rest at the end of quarters, then it should be Barry and Manu in the backcourt. Beno's steady hand saved the Spurs a lot in Game 2, so calling him out after Game 3 is pretty weak. You can't say he shouldn't play for the rest of the playoffs; he should just be better utilized.

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I do think it's Pops fault for playing him, and everything else you said, I said in my first post.

I should have clarified, I don't want him playing at the end of quaters for the rest of the playoffs. There!

You guys need to go back and watch that segment again...Beno made one TO and it didn't even lead to a basket...don't get me wrong...Beno has played like a rookie these entire playoffs except for one of these Detroit games...And I wonder why Pop keeps going with him...

But he didn't cause us to lose the game last night...

We ended the third quarter down by exactly 5 points IIRC. That was nothing...that was not why we lost the game.

And BTW...Manu had two TO's in that segment on one a pass to Barry and another on a pass to Nazr...and they never had a chance to get to either ball...and he wasn't getting pressed like Beno and Barry were. He was just having a bad night.

We lost this game because we go predictable on offense late in the game...Duncan was not kicking it out of the paint...he was trying to score or get to the line when he had wide open teamates that were shredding it from 3...Manu's TO's kept the Pistons close early and posting up Duncan on multiple defenders w/no kickouts killed us late.


Parker, Barry and Bruce were having good games and we kept going to the two guys that were stinking it up last night, down the stretch...does no good to have depth like we have if we don't use it.

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

Beno doesn't play enough to be the biggest liability.

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It's easy to blame the rookie because no one wants to mention the elephant in the room. :depressed

Ginobilli, with 6 TOs, looked trapped during most of the game--and he was. I predicted he wouldn't have another great game in Detroit's opener at home, but didn't expect a total melt-down either. :oops

Props to Larry Brown for a game plan and the Pistons players for energy ant 'tude. However, I expect Manu to come back with another good game now.

Ok, enough with the predictable arguement. In today's NBA where they scout the fucking waterboy and watch hours of film, there is no such thing as unpredictable offense. Get off it.

You're either good enough to execture what you want to do, or you're not. But everyone knows what you're doing.

Beno is getting all these minutes in the nba finals with a rookie's experience...you can't blame him for playing, who wouldn't? Blame pop.

Yea and blame Pop for not playing Rasho and Barry enough.

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Originally Posted by MannyIsGod

Ok, enough with the predictable arguement. In today's NBA where they scout the fucking waterboy and watch hours of film, there is no such thing as unpredictable offense. Get off it.

You're either good enough to execture what you want to do, or you're not. But everyone knows what you're doing.

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It's harder to predict offense that's running through 4 players than it is offense that runs through 1(a two time MVP who is known for his consistency).

That offense stopped working about 1999....since then it's taken guys shooting 80% from 3 to overcome it...and even that won't happen if he's forcing shit up over multiple defenders instead of passing it out.

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Originally Posted by whottt

It's harder to predict offense that's running through 4 players than it is offense that runs through 1(a two time MVP who is known for his consistency).

That offense stopped working about 1999....since then it's taken guys shooting 80% from 3 to overcome it...and that won't happen if he's forcing shit up over multiple defenders instead of passing it out.

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It's also harder to excute that complicated of an offense.

The offense we have in place has been good enough to score a hell of a lot of points up untill this point, and the Pistons knew exactly what was coming during game one.

The offense at the end of games isn't a problem. Turnovers are always going to be the biggest reason the Spurs lose. You need look no further than the fucked up disparity in fast break points during last nights game in order to see that. Something like 20 to 2, wasn't it?

Detroits offense is not good enough to consistently put those kind of numbers up on the Spurs. If they are, they the Spurs are probably going to lose this series.

Beno was just part of the larger picture last night, and that picture was very blurry. We were a mess from the moment the ball was tipped and to expect a rookie to come in and make some sense of it is asking a lot. I agree that he shouldn't be coming in at the end of quarters, unless we're up by some ridiculous amount. I also notice that he tends to play better with Manu than with Barry - I'm assuming it's a chemistry thing or perhaps that Manu plays with more confidence than Barry. He has shown throughout the season that he has what it takes and it's obvoius that Pop and the Spurs have confidence in him. I think we'll see him shake off those rookie dustbunnies over the summer and he'll play with a lot more confidence next season.

Everyone plays better with Manu...unfortunately Manu sucked last night and he was on the court during that crap fest...and made more TO's during it than anyone.

the beno militia never existed i tell ya

never existed!

I dont see why Pop doesnt give Barry the back up pg spot, plus the fucking guy was hot from the field! ARghhhh

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Originally Posted by MannyIsGod

It's also harder to excute that complicated of an offense.

The offense we have in place has been good enough to score a hell of a lot of points up untill this point, and the Pistons knew exactly what was coming during game one.

The offense at the end of games isn't a problem. Turnovers are always going to be the biggest reason the Spurs lose. You need look no further than the fucked up disparity in fast break points during last nights game in order to see that. Something like 20 to 2, wasn't it?

Detroits offense is not good enough to consistently put those kind of numbers up on the Spurs. If they are, they the Spurs are probably going to lose this series.

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What's wrong with offense we ran the first two games?

I bet we didn't try to post up Duncan more than 2 times in arow in either of the first two games...

The Pistons are built to stop Duncan posting up in the half court, they are built to stop Shaq from doing it...we can pretend it's no different than any other offense...but the Pistons have a 3 time DPOY bigman and another guy many believe to be the best Duncan defender in the NBA...

We played to Detroit's strengths instead of attacking their weaknesses, and we didn't play team ball(Duncan didn't IMO).

Billups and Hamilton are not all NBA defenders...

If we're in the mood for determining Spurs who are liabilities I will say that Mohammed's inability to shoot the rock and Barry's inability to make good decisions with the rock merit serious consideration...

dude barry played fucking well IMO at least relatively

him and bowen played well

Tim, Manu, Tony, Nazr, and Beno all blew it imo

in that order, too

Barry played well "relatively" for him. I was glad to see him get off and make himself useful, at least until he decided to revert back to his weak ways with the rock.

He does get credit for a couple of strong moves to the basket.

yes if barry is guilty of anything its not doing more with the ball once he got into a little rhythm. He even played decent D out there.

I just cannot comprehend why Pop does not use him as our backup PG. Ughghh

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Originally Posted by SPARKY

If we're in the mood for determining Spurs who are liabilities I will say that Mohammed's inability to shoot the rock and Barry's inability to make good decisions with the rock merit serious consideration...

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That's be great...except for the fact that Nazr and Barry weren't on the team for the other 6.3 billion times that offense has choked since the 98-99 season(the only year it truly worked in the playoffs). Fuck you.

Am I the only one that remembers Rick Fox explaining the Lakers strategy for beating the Spurs? " We tried to stay within 10 points until the 4th when we knew they'd be trying to pound it inside with Duncan, and we'd force some TO's and make a run"...

Surely you remember..that was from the 2002 playoffs where we choked a double digit 4th quarter lead in 4 out of 5 games...You remember...the year Duncan had the triple double with 10 turnovers. Fuck you.

Beno deserved court time after his performances earlier in the series. My problem is that Pop did not react to the pressure quickly. A timeout would have done wonders to nip the Pistons' momentum in the bud plus it would've advanced the rock to halfcourt.

Otherwise the Spurs had hung with the Pistons in the 3rd until then. That last minute really gave the Pistons a boost when I thought they were starting to feel the heat of a Spurs team that wouldn't go away.

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Originally Posted by whottt

That's be great...except for the fact that Nazr and Barry weren't on the team for the other 6.3 billion times that offense has choked since the 98-99 season(the only year it truly worked in the playoffs). Fuck you.

Am I the only one that remembers Rick Fox explaining the Lakers strategy for beating the Spurs? " We tried to stay within 10 points until the 4th when we knew they'd be trying to pound it inside with Duncan, and we'd force some TO's and make a run"...

Surely you remember..that was from the 2002 playoffs where we choked a double digit 4th quarter lead in 4 out of 5 games...You remember...the year Duncan had the triple double with 10 turnovers. Fuck you.

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:lol...and Beno was on those teams? WTF you cracksmoker?

The subject, in case you weren't aware, is which current Spur is a "liability", not which Spur historically has been one.

Pay attention next time you fucking verbal vomit king.

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Originally Posted by Cant_Be_Faded

yes if barry is guilty of anything its not doing more with the ball once he got into a little rhythm. He even played decent D out there.

I just cannot comprehend why Pop does not use him as our backup PG. Ughghh

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Among other reasons, Barry can't be the first PG backup because Devin isn't strong enough to be Manu's backup. Both Manu and Barry can play point if necessary, but I think that Pop's error was not finding a veteran backup PG. As we know, Parker can be inconsistent and you can't expect a rookie to make up the difference.

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Originally Posted by spurschick

Among other reasons, Barry can't be the first PG backup because Devin isn't strong enough to be Manu's backup. Both Manu and Barry can play point if necessary, but I think that Pop's error was not finding a veteran backup PG. As we know, Parker can be inconsistent and you can't expect a rookie to make up the difference.

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Devin does back up the shooting guard spot though....even the 3 spot sometimes

i've never seen devin go in at point guard.

Pop did not make an error by drafting beno, the kid is good. But hitting a timely 3 pointer or two does not warrant significant ball handling time. At least not to me.

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Originally Posted by Cant_Be_Faded

Devin does back up the shooting guard spot though....even the 3 spot sometimes

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What I meant is that Devin was the first option to rest Manu before the back injury. If Devin hadn't gotten injured, he would be getting the SG minutes instead of Brent. In that scenario, perhaps Pop may have had some time to prep Brent to play some solid backup PG minutes in the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by SPARKY

:lol...and Beno was on those teams? WTF you cracksmoker?

The subject, in case you weren't aware, is which current Spur is a "liability", not which Spur historically has been one.

Pay attention next time you fucking verbal vomit king.

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I am not blaming Beno...fool.

He made 1 TO and it didn't even lead to a basket...and after 3 we were down by 5.

The liabitlity is posting up Duncan repeatedly when we are trying to get back into a game...the Bobcats can stop it..you can imagine what a team like Detroit is going to do.

This is no divine revelation I know,- even though it comes from Angel = ) - but Kori is absolutely right.

Every time Beno brings the ball up the court, my heart takes an extra beat, esp. at the end of a quarter.

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Originally Posted by MannyIsGod

I disagree, he plays enough to cause huge momentum swings.

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He didn't do too poorly in game 2.....

Hell.....Timmy stunk it up too....is he a liability?

Beno has been pretty good in the post-season.....

The Pistons just out played The Spurs....simple as that.

I agree with Manny that Beno was a liability last night. Things need to change for him.

All season, almost like clockwork, Pop brings in Beno with a minute left in the first qtr. and again in the last minute or two of the 3rd qtr. It's a pattern for minutes distribution, just like Rasho/Nazr out after 1st 6 min. of 1st qtr., then Timmy out after 9 min. of 1st and Rasho/Nazr back in for Timmy.

I'm sure Larry Brown sees that if we do. Beno and Brent had better learn how to execute the press offense or the Spurs will continue to suffer.

Timmy doesn´t play spot minutes so he´s going to make mistakes. When Beno enters a game he usually makes a mistake right away. You´re right about Game 2, he played well in that game. Also we have to mention that Barry had a poor pass after the Beno turnover that resulted in a basket.

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Originally Posted by SPARKY

Barry played well "relatively" for him. I was glad to see him get off and make himself useful, at least until he decided to revert back to his weak ways with the rock.

He does get credit for a couple of strong moves to the basket.

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Uh, he made a bad decision at half court throwing away a pass...what else did he do wrong last night? He only played 21 minutes. The guy was a starting point guard the last two years in the NBA, and he's a bad decision maker?

He has an unnerving tendency to cough up the rock when pressured, especially after he picks up his dribble. Sometimes he hits a fetal position too...

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Originally Posted by SPARKY

He has an unnerving tendency to cough up the rock when pressured, especially after he picks up his dribble. Sometimes he hits a fetal position too...

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:rollin

My prediction is that he won't play in this series again except in garbage time. When he's not coughing the ball up he's almost coughing it up.... My guess is Pop knows that anytime Beno's in the game from now on it will be full court press and traps.

Beno most definately gave one, maybe two break away dunks

When Beno has played the last few games we have gone backwards. I think Pop is playing him more out of neccesity than want. He needs to give Tony a breath or Tony is in foul trouble.

Man this Kid drives me insane!!!! Everytime Pop has him on the court I find myself getting mad because I know that he will lose the ball. And I am right because he always seems to lose it at least twice a game. Now i'm sure that once the Rookie comes off he will he a good player!!! I have faith in him!

But does anyones else think that Barry looks like Nascar? Because i look at him and he reminds me of watching Nascar!!! I'm weird!!!

Udrih=the reason the Spurs will draft another point guard.

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Originally Posted by AFE7FATMAN

Udrih=the reason the Spurs will draft another point guard.

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I disagree. He's solid, as far as backup rookie point guards go. He has been making rookie mistakes. He's a rookie. He has surprised me with some 3's here and there in the playoffs, but I still believe he has no business on the court at this time anymore. PLEEEEEEEEEASE play barry more minutes Pop!!!!!

ARgh

Yeah me and my boyfriend find ourselfs yelling at pop for putting Udrih in he just has no business on the court until he can step up his game..... rookie or not he should be on the court during the playoffs

I hate when Pop put Udrih in at the end of quarters...

Whenever we have the lost shot, Beno always dribbles into double teams, or just throws the ball away..

Argh it makes me mad.

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Originally Posted by Cant_Be_Faded

I disagree. He's solid, as far as backup rookie point guards go. He has been making rookie mistakes. He's a rookie. He has surprised me with some 3's here and there in the playoffs, but I still believe he has no business on the court at this time anymore. PLEEEEEEEEEASE play barry more minutes Pop!!!!!

ARgh

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I also don't think that the Spurs will draft another PG. But I disagree that these are rookie mistakes. He doesn't have great ball handling skills, and pressure gets to him. He is 22 years old and those kinds of things shouldn't be happening.