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Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Charley Rosen / Special to FOXSports.com
How can you call Manu Ginobili defensively challenged? He is a far better defender than almost all the other shooting guards in the league, including some with better reputations such as Kobe. — Peter Rumm
Ginobili's characteristic man-to-man defense consists of various gambles. Mostly trying to intercept entry passes, and sometimes trying to reach out and touch his opponent's last dribble before he spins, crosses-over, or otherwise changes direction. With his quick hands, Ginobili is frequently successful and the results are often spectacular. His failures, though, are often hidden by the Spurs' rotating to help him. But, even so, when Ginobili's gambles come up empty, both the integrity and balance of San Antonio's defense are severely compromised — and one of the Spurs' bigs is liable to pick up a foul.
That said, Ginobili plays excellent team defense, and he's also adept at forcing his opponent into pre-designed help areas. Yet because his quickness and anticipation are his primary defensive weapons, any opponent who can create and maintain body-to-body contact can put Ginobili in an extremely vulnerable position. The slower the pace of the game, the more at risk is Ginobili's defense.
When Kobe Bryant is properly motivated (which has happened only sporadically in the past two seasons), he is by far the best defender at the position. Those whose defensive capabilities likewise exceeds Ginobili's include Ira Newble, Greg Buckner, Michael Curry (when he's healthy), Corey Maggette, Kerry Kittles, James Posey (when he's in shape), Eddie Jones, Shandon Anderson, Erick Strickland, Trenton Hassell, Richard Jefferson, Doug Christie, Stacy Augmon, Aaron McKie, Andre Iguodala, Ruben Patterson, Gordan Giricek, Larry Hughes, and Raja Bell.
The defense rests.
Rest of the article
BTW, the question was from SpursTalk poster, Rummpd
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
This dude's a moron. He aslo stated that nash was goning to dominate parker and that nash is the most dominant pg since magic, I wish the guy would do his homework. I pointed out that in the reg season parker had better stats.
It is true that manu gambles on d. Maybe a little more on some occassions. But wouldn't you if you had duncan/nazr in the front court?
When he gambled in game 3 I think it hurt the sas defense.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Manu does gamble on D, but I can't believe he listed all those guys as better defenders than Manu:wtf
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Ira Newble?! Raja Bell?! Is this guy insane?! I want whatever this guy is smoking.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
I wouldn't put Manu on the All NBA Defensive Team anytime soon, but he's by no means "defensively challenged." He's done a much better job this year of choosing when to take his gambles. He rarely gets burned like he used to, and I think his ability to create turnovers makes up for any slight defeciencies he might have "manning up" to the opponent.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Unfair knock on Ginobili. I think he unfairly assumes that Ginobili would go for those risky moves if he didn't have a pair of shot blockers backing him. He's a pretty smart player and from where I'm sitting it seems like those gambles pay off more than they backfire.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
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Originally Posted by spurschick
Ira Newble?! Raja Bell?! Is this guy insane?! I want whatever this guy is smoking.
Those guys hardly even play how can he compare. Gino was 11th in the league in steals per game. :flipoff
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Okay...yeah Manu isn't going to deserve any All Defensive Team awards or anything, but damn no way does he rank below Ira Newble and Raja Bell.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Ira and Raja are actually pretty good defensive players.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
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Originally Posted by Spurminator
Ira and Raja are actually pretty good defensive players.
That's what I was going to say. :lol
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurminator
Ira and Raja are actually pretty good defensive players.
maybe, but to say they are better than Ginobilli??
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
I think Manu is a really good defender, and would not call him defensively challenged. But, as to Ira Newble and Raja Bell, those two are excellent perimeter defenders. So, it's not really a knock on Manu. Raja Bell is one of the tougher big guards when it comes to bodying up on a slasher, and he has very quick feet. And, Ira Newble is long and strong for a two guard with good defensive fundamentals.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
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Originally Posted by JamStone
I think Manu is a really good defender, and would not call him defensively challenged. But, as to Ira Newble and Raja Bell, those two are excellent perimeter defenders. So, it's not really a knock on Manu. Raja Bell is one of the tougher big guards when it comes to bodying up on a slasher, and he has very quick feet. And, Ira Newble is long and strong for a two guard with good defensive fundamentals.
I agree with all of that, I just wouldn't say they are "better" than Manu. I simply don't agree with Rosen's assessment that Manu isn't at least a part of that list.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
I think Manu is a really good defender, and would not call him defensively challenged. But, as to Ira Newble and Raja Bell, those two are excellent perimeter defenders. So, it's not really a knock on Manu. Raja Bell is one of the tougher big guards when it comes to bodying up on a slasher, and he has very quick feet. And, Ira Newble is long and strong for a two guard with good defensive fundamentals.
Since I dont pay attention to those guys that may be true. I guess they just dont put up the numbers, kinda like Brucie.
All the little things that dont get on paper huh? Speaking of which why is Bruce not on that list?
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
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Originally Posted by sa_butta
Since I dont pay attention to those guys that may be true. I guess they just dont put up the numbers, kinda like Brucie.
All the little things that dont get on paper huh? Speaking of which why is Bruce not on that list?
That's a whole other list.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
i just wish the guy gave me more of a reason than the fact that manu attempts a lot of steals. give me an assist/turnover ratio or number of turnovers per game or points allowed or something other than just saying the guy tries to hard to take the ball away.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Quote:
When Kobe Bryant is properly motivated (which has happened only sporadically in the past two seasons), he is by far the best defender at the position. Those whose defensive capabilities likewise exceeds Ginobili's include Ira Newble, Greg Buckner, Michael Curry (when he's healthy), Corey Maggette, Kerry Kittles, James Posey (when he's in shape), Eddie Jones, Shandon Anderson, Erick Strickland, Trenton Hassell, Richard Jefferson, Doug Christie, Stacy Augmon, Aaron McKie, Andre Iguodala, Ruben Patterson, Gordan Giricek, Larry Hughes, and Raja Bell.
My problem with this list of guys is that he put conditions on so many of them .. if Kobe's motivated, if Curry's healthy, if Posey's in shape. And others are old -- Augmon is almost 37, Eddie Jones is 34 (I think). They shouldn't be on there just for past reputation. And what about Giricek? Why is he on there?
Some of these guys are good defenders and maybe equal to Manu in defensive worth though different types of defenders. But to say all these guys are better than Manu is weak.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
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Okay...yeah Manu isn't going to deserve any All Defensive Team awards or anything, but damn no way does he rank below Ira Newble and Raja Bell.
Beat me to it. Well said.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Eddie Jones is a great defender? That how come Wonder boy Dwayne Wade got put on the All defensive SECOND team!
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
I think Manu has done as good a job on Rip (at least first two games) as Bruce has, even though Manu only played him in spot minutes.
I agree that Manu has toned down his gambling for steals, and picks and chooses when to go after the ball. And, it's right that in the Spurs defensive schemes and with guys like Tim and Nazr (even Rasho last year had his fair share of blocks), a perimeter defender can afford to gamble a little more.
Charlie Rosen is a Phil Jackson lover, and consequently, rides the Laker jock like a french whore. Kobe is a GREAT DEFENDER when he wants to be. But, I agree with most of you Spurs fans when you say that Rosen was ridiculous to put ALL OF THOSE PLAYERS ahead of Manu in terms of defense.
In my opinion, the only guys on that list that are clearly better than Manu are: Kobe, Artest, Doug Christie (but barely at his age), Larry Hughes (though he gambles a lot too), Corey Maggette, James Posey (I think he's as good as any perimeter defender not named Bruce or Ron), Richard Jefferson, and Ruben Patterson. And, oh yeah, why didn't Rosen mention Bruce or Tayshaun?
The other guys are either too old or still have a lot to learn. I would easily put Manu in the class of a Raja Bell, Ira Newble, and Trenton Hassell. Don't know if I would say any are better than the other. But, Manu is definitely right up there in the second tier of perimeter wing defenders.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
The fix is in. The press is piling up on Manu, and the Spurs, as their star rises.
"Ginobili's characteristic man-to-man defense consists of various gambles."
Starts with, is based on this BS claim. Manu's defense "consists" of tons of various efforts, of which his gambles are only a tiny %age.
"Yet because his quickness and anticipation are his primary defensive weapons, any opponent who can create and maintain body-to-body contact can put Ginobili in an extremely vulnerable position."
Turning Manu's talent, skills, and hustle into negatives. GMAFB.
"any opponent"?? How many (nameless, of course) individuals are really capable to of
out-offense-ing Manu's defense?
And, for the few playrees that can/do do it infrequently, does it matter greatly in the Spurs team defense?
Is it Manu's fault the Spurs have klutzy, prone-to-stupid-fouls big men like Nazr, Rasho, TMass?
So what's this asshole's point? Why is he thinking about, concentrating on Manu's defense? Try to find some way to bring Manu down? or just trying to fill some column inches?
This sounds like Rosen is playng "watch me grand-stand with some highly obscure, insignificant, arcane BS", hitching my own tiny star to Manu's current stardom.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
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The press is piling up on Manu, and the Spurs, as their star rises.
They are?
90%+ of the press I've seen on Manu is saying that he's become a superstar. I don't think that's piling up in a bad way.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
I think Manu has done as good a job on Rip (at least first two games) as Bruce has, even though Manu only played him in spot minutes.
I agree that Manu has toned down his gambling for steals, and picks and chooses when to go after the ball. And, it's right that in the Spurs defensive schemes and with guys like Tim and Nazr (even Rasho last year had his fair share of blocks), a perimeter defender can afford to gamble a little more.
Charlie Rosen is a Phil Jackson lover, and consequently, rides the Laker jock like a french whore. Kobe is a GREAT DEFENDER when he wants to be. But, I agree with most of you Spurs fans when you say that Rosen was ridiculous to put ALL OF THOSE PLAYERS ahead of Manu in terms of defense.
In my opinion, the only guys on that list that are clearly better than Manu are: Kobe, Artest, Doug Christie (but barely at his age), Larry Hughes (though he gambles a lot too), Corey Maggette, James Posey (I think he's as good as any perimeter defender not named Bruce or Ron), Richard Jefferson, and Ruben Patterson. And, oh yeah, why didn't Rosen mention Bruce or Tayshaun?
The other guys are either too old or still have a lot to learn. I would easily put Manu in the class of a Raja Bell, Ira Newble, and Trenton Hassell. Don't know if I would say any are better than the other. But, Manu is definitely right up there in the second tier of perimeter wing defenders.
Wasn't rosen a former ass. coach or coached with phil in the cba? I heard some guys on the radio yesterday after the phil rehire that rosen wrote some bad things about kobe since him and phil are good buddies.
That explains alot to me now.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Note to Detroit Pistons:
Manu is waaay overrated. He can't defend, either.
Pay no attention to him.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
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Originally Posted by boutons
The fix is in. The press is piling up on Manu, and the Spurs, as their star rises.
"Ginobili's characteristic man-to-man defense consists of various gambles."
Starts with, is based on this BS claim. Manu's defense "consists" of tons of various efforts, of which his gambles are only a tiny %age.
"Yet because his quickness and anticipation are his primary defensive weapons, any opponent who can create and maintain body-to-body contact can put Ginobili in an extremely vulnerable position."
Turning Manu's talent, skills, and hustle into negatives. GMAFB.
"any opponent"?? How many (nameless, of course) individuals are really capable to of
out-offense-ing Manu's defense?
And, for the few playrees that can/do do it infrequently, does it matter greatly in the Spurs team defense?
Is it Manu's fault the Spurs have klutzy, prone-to-stupid-fouls big men like Nazr, Rasho, TMass?
So what's this asshole's point? Why is he thinking about, concentrating on Manu's defense? Try to find some way to bring Manu down? or just trying to fill some column inches?
This sounds like Rosen is playng "watch me grand-stand with some highly obscure, insignificant, arcane BS", hitching my own tiny star to Manu's current stardom.
Boutons, why don't you use the "quote" feature?
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
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Originally Posted by SWC Bonfire
Note to Detroit Pistons:
Manu is waaay overrated. He can't defend, either.
Pay no attention to him.
:lol
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Manu is not the best defender in the league, nor the best 3-point shooter, nor the best 2-point shooter, nor the best passer, nor the best rebounder, nor the best of a lot of things.
But put together, he is probably the best at his position to win more games than anybody else.
I'll take him over all the aforementioned.
Whenever he makes best passes or turns the ball over, I'll just go "tsk, tsk."
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
"why don't you use the "quote" feature?"
I don't want to.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Quote:
Originally Posted by boutons
"why don't you use the "quote" feature?"
I don't want to.
Well, fvck you, then! :spin
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
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Originally Posted by SpurYank
Manu is not the best defender in the league, nor the best 3-point shooter, nor the best 2-point shooter, nor the best passer, nor the best rebounder, nor the best of a lot of things.
But put together, he is probably the best at his position to win more games than anybody else.
I'll take him over all the aforementioned.
Whenever he makes best passes or turns the ball over, I'll just go "tsk, tsk."
Exactly. Well put.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
No Coach alive, past or present has EVER, I MEAN EVER, either here or internationally called Gordan Giricek a great defender until now and of course it's Rosen. The thing about Charlie though is he says the same kind of negative shit about any team that he writes an article on. He fawns over how great he writes(in his mind) and how much Phil loves him. Once he called Gordan great on D, I knew he was in his own make-believe planetoid.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
glenn robinson for defense player of the year!
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
You guys are all missing the biggest joke of all..... Andre Igoudala? The high flying rookie from Philiadelphia.... You have GOT to be kidding me.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Gordan Giricek >>> MANU???
give me a fucking break.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Quote:
Originally Posted by texbumTHElife
You guys are all missing the biggest joke of all..... Andre Igoudala? The high flying rookie from Philiadelphia.... You have GOT to be kidding me.
Actually, he is a great defender. You ever watch a Sixers game?
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Ira Newble :lol
Greg Buckner :lol
Michael Curry (when he's healthy) I don't care if it's when he can use a bat and crobar, it's still :lol
Corey Maggette - when he feels like it he's equal with Manu, but that isn't very often
Kerry Kittles - I'll give him this one
James Posey (when he's in shape) - I'll give him Posey
Eddie Jones - I'll give him this too
Shandon Anderson - :lmao
Erick Strickland :lmao
Trenton Hassell - it's a wash
Richard Jefferson - Air Gay? Swinging doors get blown by less than him
Doug Christie - in his youth. He ain't young no mo'.
Stacy Augmon - 10 years ago.
Aaron McKie - old man McKie? :lol
Andre Iguodala - I'll give him this one easily.
Ruben Patterson - a wash
Gordan Giricek - um, no
Larry Hughes - duh.
Raja Bell. - :lol Raja is a punk ass bitch, and he can't play D either.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
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You guys are all missing the biggest joke of all..... Andre Igoudala? The high flying rookie from Philiadelphia.... You have GOT to be kidding me.
Spoken like someone who never watched a Philadelphia game. He's got Artest's defensive game, without all the mental issues.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Gordan Giricek? He defends as well as a rabbit in a fox hole, this guy has got to be kidding me.
Shandon Andersen? He's not even the best perimeter off the Miami bench!
And Larry Hughes is NOT a good defender, getting a lots of steals != a good defender. How many points does Washington allow again? How many points did Wade average in that series again? 31? Know what? Screw that, Eddie and Damon Jones averaged 15 in that series too. You can argue the Bullets (I am NEVER going to call them by their stupid name they have now) sucked as a whole, but a lot is attributed to Hughes and Arenas constantly gambling for steals when they have a defensively challenged frontcourt.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan
Spoken like someone who never watched a Philadelphia game. He's got Artest's defensive game, without all the mental issues.
If that had come from anyone but you AHF it might just get a chuckle. However coming from you, its a down right gut buster.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
It's funny to me...the Gordan G...one of the better defenders....sure.....yeah right...
However this is how I look at it...I watch a lot of NBA games as well as Laker games...and I use the the Kobe analogy. Who will guard Kobe on the opposing teams...overall Kobe owns everyone on a regular basis, with exception to Bruce Bowen on a few given nights. Hassell and Bell have Kobe as their assignments as well as Iggy. Now, would you match Manu against Kobe, Tmac, Iverson, VC etc....no, why because he would get abused on a nightly basis. Yes, manu's active but he's not going to get it done against the elite. Rosen is a little off...but those players he mentioned all get the major defensive assignments on the best players....Manu does not.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
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If that had come from anyone but you AHF it might just get a chuckle. However coming from you, its a down right gut buster.
What's hilarious is your lack of knowledge about people outside of SA. Iggy will be all-NBA first team before he's done.
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Gordon Giricek??
Are you kidding me??????
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Re: Ginobili's defense isn't what it's cracked up to be
Raja Bell gave Gino fits against the Jazz in at least one game this season
