Blame Barry

i'm looking at the game stats, and honestly, i can't see blaming parker or duncan. duncan outplayed rasheed, numberswise (which is a weird thing to say, after all, it all comes down to who scores more) in points and rebounds. parker was 5points behind billubs and only three assists behind him. hardly dominated, in any event. manu showed much improvement compared to his 7 point outing. so i'm pointing the finger to the one guy brought in as a solution for this whole clog-the-lane, make-the-spurs-beat-us-by-shooting strategy that seems so effective. and it is brent barry. parker's role is penetrate, dish or score; manu's role is slash, dish, score; duncan's role is low post scoring and defense. last year we saw what the lakers did and the front office folks made the move everyone agreed should have been the nail in the coffin for all other teams, which is get the guy with the best 3-point range and have him be open should defenders race into the lane to stop the big three. and thus far, barry's done bumpkiss. certainly he's not going to score 30 points, probably not even 15, but if his shot is consistent, he will force the lane to be a bit more porous, a la steve kerr and stephen jackson. so he's the guy who really needs to bring something to the table in game 5.

man, what a disappointment.

Barry is having trouble just holding onto the ball. My enduring image of Barry since Game 3 is Manu passing him a normal, standard pass with little mustard, yet Barry bobbles it, drops it, and three seconds later Tayshaun is dunking. Niiiiiiiiiiiice.

Unfortunately, I lost count of the times I said "GODDAMMNITBRENTBARRY" last night....

But he didn't loose the game for us singlehandedly like some people believe.

You don't have to ask anyone to blame Barry...

It's the default reaction.

Hes not the only one.

Everyone is to blame.

But yes, Brent Barry is probobly the most dissapointing FA in Spurs history.

Don´t blame just him. The rest of the team don´t play well. e.g: Nazr Mohammed, Ro-Ho... Udrih, and so and so.

The real problem is a lack of agressiveness

I blame the team in game 4

I blame Marcus Bryant's "game 4 is ours" post.

Blame everyone.

Team loss.

Classic, the guy plays 11 minutes hits 1 of 2 from the floor...and he is to blame. Scores 12 points the other night, on 3 of 4 from the 3pt line and everyone gives him props for game 3.

How has he played any different then the two games they won? Besides shooting over 80% from the 3pt line in the games they lost.

Idiots.

I agree blame the whole team. It seemed like everyone had butterfingers that game. The Spurs brought nothing to that game, they just showed up. :depressed

nazr, beno, the rest, with the exception of maybe horry, deserve some blame but not THE blame. none of them were brought in specifically to counter the very contigency that the spurs face right now. and in horry's defense, he's brought so much more to the table in the games preceeding this that he deserves to have a bad game or two just on principle. but barry has shown so very little this whole season and in the playoffs sans a game or two against phoenix. i mean, i blame the team but only in the sense of not making freaking shots when they should spend nothing but hours in this gym doing that because they know what is coming. but even then, the offense is set up around parker penetrating, manu slashing and duncan low-posting. clogging the lane negates the first two, or has so far, and not only has rasheed done reasonably well, but they also double duncan with mcdyss and ben wallace once he charges into the lane. the rational alternative,then, is to find the open guy and swing it to him. barry took two shots, if i remember right. lame.

and as for barry making some shots in game 3, that's great, but it goes back to consistency. he's been so up and down this year, hell, this series, so that he scores 12 one night and 2 the next? he's not bringing it as much as he should.

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

Blame everyone.

Team loss.

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Somehow it feels better blaming Marcus Bryant for it though...

Put barry into the starting lineups bench manu

I blame Osama, you?

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Originally Posted by Nocioni

Put barry into the starting lineups bench manu

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I think pop should go with this one again.

I blame the waterboy for not keeping the PH at the proper level. :lol

Yeah we lost because of Barry, what a brilliant analysis. It wasn't the Pistons agresiveness nor our inability to perform, not even our lack of desire to win, it was just Barry.

Well at least we don't have to change our mentality for game 5 and we dont have to go out there showing how much we want to win, we just have to get rid of Barry and we'll win the ring...

I blame the Fat Boys. When they broke up, nothing has been the same. I think all the Spurs just came to the realization that the Fat Boys are no more. Their minds were in a different place for games 3 and 4.

Damn Fat Boys....WHY COULDN'T THEY STAY TOGETHER?!?!?!

Brent Barry has looked like a bunny in the headlights all year long. Why should anyone be surprised that the Finals are too much for the poor thing?

Get rid of him, Pop.

"Yeah we lost because of Barry, what a brilliant analysis. It wasn't the Pistons agresiveness nor our inability to perform, not even our lack of desire to win, it was just Barry.

Well at least we don't have to change our mentality for game 5 and we dont have to go out there showing how much we want to win, we just have to get rid of Barry and we'll win the ring..."

no, this is not what i am saying. what i am saying is that the strategy that the pistons are employing, namely, cramming folks into the lane so that td, parker and ginobilli can't do their normal thing, is not a new or inventive strategy. it is an effective strategy, however, because the spurs that are left do not consistently hit jump shots. that point was brought home painfully last year when a lakers team we were killing opted for the same approach and swept us. the front office wasn't stupid, they figured that the best way to counter that approach was to find a guy who could hit jump shots consistently and three pointers to boot. in walks brent barry, who has so far this year given us very little. and in terms of consistency, he's given us squat. his production in game 3 was admirable, and had manu not got hurt, there's a pretty good chance we win that game. but now, knowing full well that manu is hurt, he could shoot more than twice. what's more, his inability to consistently make his shots means folks can go back to sagging into the lane and further forcing the spurs to do what they haven't thus far, which is beat the pistons with their shooting. don't blame barry for not scoring 20 points a game or some nonsense, blame him for being the weakest link in this system thus far (i don't count beno because he's a rookie and is behaving like a rookie) and not meeting the expectations so many folks had for him. to whit, the pistons ability to be aggressive is precisely because they have little fear that the open spur will make the shot.

You should try watching the game outside of Tim Duncan's ass...

The game I am watching the Spurs are shooting 40% as a team from three and the only guy forcing up shots is Duncan and to a lesser extent Parker...and he's doing it while Bruce Bowen and Barry are standing out there at the 3 point line...

The game I am watching has the heart of our entire fucking team trying to score in packed paint and turning it over when they attempt to do so...I can't think of a single good pass out of the paint in Detroit...they either aren't passing or else they are turning it over when they try to do so.

I want you to go back and watch games 3 and 4 and you tell me Tim...who is getting the ball most of the time...is trying to look his teamates beyond the crowded paint..it aint happening...what's happening is turnovers, forced shots, and misses by the guys that handle the ball the most...starting with Mr.Duncan.

Brent Barry is responsible for the 20 point blowouts and Tim/Tony/Manu's turnovers? That's a new one.

Barry has made 1 turnover in the first half in each of our last 2 games...if that not the reason for the other 40 turnovers than I don't know what is.

Fucking choking gutless scrub.

I mean fuck...we only shot like 50% from 3 in game 3...obviously that wasn't enough to get Duncan open.

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Originally Posted by whottt

You should try watching the game outside of Tim Duncan's ass...

The game I am watching the Spurs are shooting 40% as a team from three and the only guy forcing up shots is Duncan and to a lesser extent Parker...and he's doing it while Bruce Bowen and Barry are standing out there at the 3 point line...

The game I am watching has the heart of our entire fucking team trying to score in packed paint and turning it over when they attempt to do so...I can't think of a single good pass out of the paint in Detroit...they either aren't passing or else they are turning it over when they try to do so.

I want you to go back and watch games 3 and 4 and you tell me Tim...who is getting the ball most of the time...is trying to look his teamates beyond the crowded paint..it aint happening...what's happening is turnovers, forced shots, and misses by the guys that handle the ball the most...starting with Mr.Duncan.

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excellent analysis by whott...i couldn't agree more....

its too late now for Pop to put Barry on the starting lineup; this game is too pivotal for a possible mistake made because Ginobili couldn't get warm. But seriously, we have the exact same team as last year, that got destroyed by the lakers. Why? because we needed shooters. The same thing is happening again. Its too late in the season now to expect Barry to step up, but shit man he was the missing piece to the championship puzzle everyone thought, but he choked. What is it about choking and the spurs?

but whott you miss my point and still underscore what i'm saying. hooray for barry's points in game three and the 50 percent shooting by the spurs. as i said earlier, if manu is 100 percent in that game, we likely take it. i think the margin of victory in that game was 17 and ginobilli scored 7 points when his average in the series up to that point had been 27 and 28. give him those extra 20 points and we win a close battel. but checking the stats show that barry was not the top dog in 3-pt scoring, it was bowen. what's more, bowen, at least this year and last, has been a streaky scorer at best (0 in game 1 and outscoring rip the next game). but the real point is about consistency and it may even explain why folks aren't passing the ball out of the lane like they should (i thought they had but can't re-watch the games so won't argue the point). certainly, if you're duncan and you know all this pressure is on you to lead the team and carry them when things aren't going well (a la game 1's first half), you'd like to pass the ball out but when the shooters are doing the same choke job of last year, why would you not maybe hold on to it a bit more often? and when we look at barry, even keeping it to just this series, he has provided zero reason to think he'll be able to knock down an open shot. game 3 was his shining moment, went for double digit scoring, was 4-5 fg and 2-2 from 3. but game 2 showed him with on 0-3 in fg and 3pts; game 1 has him at 0-1 fg and 3pt; game 4 has him with 1-2 fg and 3pt. in games 1 and 4, he had no assists. the pistons haven't designed any special condition for him, drawn up any defensive schemes against him. he and horry and beno are there as 3pt threats. i give horry a slide because he brings it every night, and even in the listless games, he's made some great plays (running down to block rip's shot, i think, then going down the court to hit a three, comes to mind); beno is a rookie, and as horrible as he looks now, geez, give him a break. he's from slovenia, he's new to the country and the league, it's the first time he's been in this type of playoff atmosphere, he's playing the second-best defense in the nba and he's manning one of the most important positions in the game. but barry has no such excuse. he does not bring it defensively, he has been in playoffs before, he is a veteran, and he is from this country. he knew coming in that his role would be to make the shots that would have saved the season last year. everyone knew this, otherwise why go after an aged, defensively-questionable former guard that this team torched a couple or three years ago? most of all, though, is the lack of consistency. the erratic play makes it easier to pack it in, and even if the guy makes a few shots, playing the odds means it's a good chance he won't do that too often. case in point, game 3. he made his shots but the pistons' lucky break was manu's injury. if barry is a consistent shooter, they still don't dare sag off of him, making the lane that much more passible for parker and duncan to maybe pick up the slack. everyone says blame the team but i think the team is doing it's job with the exception of barry, and it becomes like when a person injures one part of their body and another part tries to pick up the slack. things get off kilter and wear down, and in this case, the team suffers more as folks look to do more on their own (a la not kicking the ball out) and culminating in 2-2 series.

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Originally Posted by td4mvp3

but whott you miss my point and still underscore what i'm saying. but checking the stats show that barry was not the top dog in 3-pt scoring, it was bowen. what's more, bowen, at least this year and last, has been a streaky scorer at best (0 in game 1 and outscoring rip the next game). game 3 was his shining moment, went for double digit scoring, was 4-5 fg and 2-2 from 3. but game 2 showed him with on 0-3 in fg and 3pts; game 1 has him at 0-1 fg and 3pt; game 4 has him with 1-2 fg and 3pt. in games 1 and 4, he had no assists. d as horrible as he looks now, geez, give him a break. he's from slovenia, he's new to the country and the league, it's the first time he's been in this type of playoff atmosphere, he's playing the second-best defense in the nba and he's manning one of the most important positions in the game. but barry has no such excuse. he does not bring it defensively, he has been in playoffs before, he is a veteran, and he is from this country. he knew coming in that his role would be to make the shots that would have saved the season last year. everyone knew this, otherwise why go after an aged, defensively-questionable former guard that this team torched a couple or three years ago? most of all, though, is the lack of consistency. the erratic play makes it easier to pack it in, and even if the guy makes a few shots, playing the odds means it's a good chance he won't do that too often. case in point, game 3. he made his shots but the pistons' lucky break was manu's injury. if barry is a consistent shooter, they still don't dare sag off of him, making the lane that much more passible for parker and duncan to maybe pick up the slack. everyone says blame the team but i think the team is doing it's job with the exception of barry, and it becomes like when a person injures one part of their body and another part tries to pick up the slack. things get off kilter and wear down, and in this case, the team suffers more as folks look to do more on their own (a la not kicking the ball out) and culminating in 2-2 series.

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Are you for real? Your embarrassing yourself with this post.

TD4MVP3---The facts are...He played fine in game three...In fact, for whatever reason, Pop decided not to play him in the second half. He had 8 minutes the second half...And much to everyone's surprise, we were getting quality minutes from him...He was scoring, and then, Pop decides no to play him for the 4 quarter. He only got 20 minutes. Game 4, the guy is 1 of2 from the 3pt line...and played 10 minutes...the whole game...What series are you watching? Your giving Beno a break because he's from Slovania? hahahhaahhah classic. In the two losses Barry is is 5 for 7 from the field with 3 of 4 from the 3pt line...in a TOTAL of 30 minutes....Maybe he should get a chance to play a bit more...Pop for whatever reason has such a tight rope on him its ridiculous. Second, can you think of something more original than his "lack" of defense. His defense has not been a hinderance to either of these loses...He's not Bowen and he never will be...But there has yet to be a defining game the Finals where his defense has been glaringly inefficient...If your going to post, post something original and insightful. Let's try and break down the reasons for Duncan's poor play since you seem to be a fan of the MVP. Because right now, his stats are as good as TMass's...Or is it Barry's fault that Tim can't shoot right now. If Tim would pass out of the post right now, Barry might have been a lot more effective, and had a lot more points and attempts, then the unfortunate abililty to only shoot 75% from the 3pt line in the two losses.

Turnovers = why the Spurs lost

Agre ^. 18 turnovers, yeah blame Barry :rolleyes

again, the point is not his performance in a single game but overall in this series, and no one has shown me yet that his performance has been anything expected or admirable.

game three, fine, he did an excellent job, but to the point of his shooting consistency, he has shown none. five for seven from the field sounds great but not when broken down to 4-5 in one game and 1 for 2 in another. not when that latter stat fits more comfortably with his performance from the two earlier games that you completely ignore.

can i come up with something better than "defensely challenged?" well, no, i will freely grant you that i am adhering to what a lot of other posters and experts have said in the past as well as what i've seen. what stat should i rely on? blocks? steals? he gets 1 steal every two games in this series and has blocked nothing. i don't expect him to be bowen but saying his defense is lacking is not a stretch, either. nor is it the only blow to his blamelessness that i'm pointing to.

if he were merely a defensive liability but also making shots, fine, but he has not; if he was defensively challenged yet ran the team well, fine, except that he has as many turnovers (1.3 average this series) as assists (1.5) and this is not an anomoly.

and again, there are two ways of looking at the team game, and that includes popovich's rotation. perhaps he's reluctant to play barry so many more minutes precisely because he has not seen the expected consistency. i was thrilled as anyone that they signed the guy, but he has yet to average 10 points in any of the playoffs and has dropped off from 8.6 points in the phoenix series to 3.3 now in 17 minutes. beno is averaging 10 minutes a game and has a 3 points scoring average. devin brown has an playing time average of less than 8 minutes per game this series and a scoring average of 2.5. they are providing almost as much in less time, i look at that as saying he is not bringing it as expected nor as is needed.

offenses are predicated on players meeting expectations, and that's exactly what we got in the first two games. the reason barry was less of a liability in those games was precisely because, as stated earlier, the roles of duncan, parker and ginobilli were working: they were slashing in, they were driving to the hoop, they were making the post shots. but when the first options were shut down, as was done by the lakers last year, the solid alternative was to get a guy who could shoot from the outside consistently enough to force teams not to sag down so much. barry was the guy but he has not done the job.

and poor play is in the eye of the beholder. should we seriously expect duncan to dominate a player that has consistently frustrated him? should we bash duncan when he has actually outscored rasheed and mcdyss, and even out did the entire pistons frontcourt in game one? duncan has given as much as could be expected considering the strategy being employed, which is namely to shut down the paint. there has to be a plan b when that won't work. barry was it but has not performed. however un-insightful and unoriginal my take, i've yet to see someone claim barry has met expectations or been consistent or that he was not brought in the counter this exact strategy.

and it should never be considered an embarassment to have an opinion and some facts to support and defend your position. perhaps i'm misinformed, perhaps i'm not as well versed in studying the game, but geez, gimme a break. i'm disappointed in barry, found some stats that support my disappointment, presented the idea and responded to the critique. it's insulting to be blown off by someone who does not provide the same. this should be healthy dialogue between fans, not some juvenile attempt at making someone feel stupid for caring.

my bad, Que Gee , you had provided some stats in an earlier post, i'd just forgotten it.

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Originally Posted by cheguevara

Agre ^. 18 turnovers, yeah blame Barry :rolleyes

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game 5 win - 16 turnovers, we hold detroit to 44 % fg shooting

game 4 loss - 18 turnovers, we hold detroit to 45 % fg shooting

our defense was not really that much better judging by the stats, and our ability to hold on to the ball was only slightly better. the difference was we got a guy who consistently nailed three pointers and has a reputation for consistently doing so in horry, the role barry was meant to play. the payoff becomes that now no one leaves horry, giving tim, manu and parker some room. at least that's the hope in game 6.

and the refs called the game a little differently.

You can't put any of the losses on Barry. He didn't play enough or do enough to be responsible for the losses. But he doesn't deserve any credit for the wins, either.

He hasn't been a difference maker, plain and simple. The Spurs would be in the exact same position in this series if Barry hadn't played a minute.