Blame Barry

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whottt

You should try watching the game outside of Tim Duncan's ass...

The game I am watching the Spurs are shooting 40% as a team from three and the only guy forcing up shots is Duncan and to a lesser extent Parker...and he's doing it while Bruce Bowen and Barry are standing out there at the 3 point line...

The game I am watching has the heart of our entire fucking team trying to score in packed paint and turning it over when they attempt to do so...I can't think of a single good pass out of the paint in Detroit...they either aren't passing or else they are turning it over when they try to do so.

I want you to go back and watch games 3 and 4 and you tell me Tim...who is getting the ball most of the time...is trying to look his teamates beyond the crowded paint..it aint happening...what's happening is turnovers, forced shots, and misses by the guys that handle the ball the most...starting with Mr.Duncan.

---

excellent analysis by whott...i couldn't agree more....

its too late now for Pop to put Barry on the starting lineup; this game is too pivotal for a possible mistake made because Ginobili couldn't get warm. But seriously, we have the exact same team as last year, that got destroyed by the lakers. Why? because we needed shooters. The same thing is happening again. Its too late in the season now to expect Barry to step up, but shit man he was the missing piece to the championship puzzle everyone thought, but he choked. What is it about choking and the spurs?

but whott you miss my point and still underscore what i'm saying. hooray for barry's points in game three and the 50 percent shooting by the spurs. as i said earlier, if manu is 100 percent in that game, we likely take it. i think the margin of victory in that game was 17 and ginobilli scored 7 points when his average in the series up to that point had been 27 and 28. give him those extra 20 points and we win a close battel. but checking the stats show that barry was not the top dog in 3-pt scoring, it was bowen. what's more, bowen, at least this year and last, has been a streaky scorer at best (0 in game 1 and outscoring rip the next game). but the real point is about consistency and it may even explain why folks aren't passing the ball out of the lane like they should (i thought they had but can't re-watch the games so won't argue the point). certainly, if you're duncan and you know all this pressure is on you to lead the team and carry them when things aren't going well (a la game 1's first half), you'd like to pass the ball out but when the shooters are doing the same choke job of last year, why would you not maybe hold on to it a bit more often? and when we look at barry, even keeping it to just this series, he has provided zero reason to think he'll be able to knock down an open shot. game 3 was his shining moment, went for double digit scoring, was 4-5 fg and 2-2 from 3. but game 2 showed him with on 0-3 in fg and 3pts; game 1 has him at 0-1 fg and 3pt; game 4 has him with 1-2 fg and 3pt. in games 1 and 4, he had no assists. the pistons haven't designed any special condition for him, drawn up any defensive schemes against him. he and horry and beno are there as 3pt threats. i give horry a slide because he brings it every night, and even in the listless games, he's made some great plays (running down to block rip's shot, i think, then going down the court to hit a three, comes to mind); beno is a rookie, and as horrible as he looks now, geez, give him a break. he's from slovenia, he's new to the country and the league, it's the first time he's been in this type of playoff atmosphere, he's playing the second-best defense in the nba and he's manning one of the most important positions in the game. but barry has no such excuse. he does not bring it defensively, he has been in playoffs before, he is a veteran, and he is from this country. he knew coming in that his role would be to make the shots that would have saved the season last year. everyone knew this, otherwise why go after an aged, defensively-questionable former guard that this team torched a couple or three years ago? most of all, though, is the lack of consistency. the erratic play makes it easier to pack it in, and even if the guy makes a few shots, playing the odds means it's a good chance he won't do that too often. case in point, game 3. he made his shots but the pistons' lucky break was manu's injury. if barry is a consistent shooter, they still don't dare sag off of him, making the lane that much more passible for parker and duncan to maybe pick up the slack. everyone says blame the team but i think the team is doing it's job with the exception of barry, and it becomes like when a person injures one part of their body and another part tries to pick up the slack. things get off kilter and wear down, and in this case, the team suffers more as folks look to do more on their own (a la not kicking the ball out) and culminating in 2-2 series.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by td4mvp3

but whott you miss my point and still underscore what i'm saying. but checking the stats show that barry was not the top dog in 3-pt scoring, it was bowen. what's more, bowen, at least this year and last, has been a streaky scorer at best (0 in game 1 and outscoring rip the next game). game 3 was his shining moment, went for double digit scoring, was 4-5 fg and 2-2 from 3. but game 2 showed him with on 0-3 in fg and 3pts; game 1 has him at 0-1 fg and 3pt; game 4 has him with 1-2 fg and 3pt. in games 1 and 4, he had no assists. d as horrible as he looks now, geez, give him a break. he's from slovenia, he's new to the country and the league, it's the first time he's been in this type of playoff atmosphere, he's playing the second-best defense in the nba and he's manning one of the most important positions in the game. but barry has no such excuse. he does not bring it defensively, he has been in playoffs before, he is a veteran, and he is from this country. he knew coming in that his role would be to make the shots that would have saved the season last year. everyone knew this, otherwise why go after an aged, defensively-questionable former guard that this team torched a couple or three years ago? most of all, though, is the lack of consistency. the erratic play makes it easier to pack it in, and even if the guy makes a few shots, playing the odds means it's a good chance he won't do that too often. case in point, game 3. he made his shots but the pistons' lucky break was manu's injury. if barry is a consistent shooter, they still don't dare sag off of him, making the lane that much more passible for parker and duncan to maybe pick up the slack. everyone says blame the team but i think the team is doing it's job with the exception of barry, and it becomes like when a person injures one part of their body and another part tries to pick up the slack. things get off kilter and wear down, and in this case, the team suffers more as folks look to do more on their own (a la not kicking the ball out) and culminating in 2-2 series.

---

Are you for real? Your embarrassing yourself with this post.

TD4MVP3---The facts are...He played fine in game three...In fact, for whatever reason, Pop decided not to play him in the second half. He had 8 minutes the second half...And much to everyone's surprise, we were getting quality minutes from him...He was scoring, and then, Pop decides no to play him for the 4 quarter. He only got 20 minutes. Game 4, the guy is 1 of2 from the 3pt line...and played 10 minutes...the whole game...What series are you watching? Your giving Beno a break because he's from Slovania? hahahhaahhah classic. In the two losses Barry is is 5 for 7 from the field with 3 of 4 from the 3pt line...in a TOTAL of 30 minutes....Maybe he should get a chance to play a bit more...Pop for whatever reason has such a tight rope on him its ridiculous. Second, can you think of something more original than his "lack" of defense. His defense has not been a hinderance to either of these loses...He's not Bowen and he never will be...But there has yet to be a defining game the Finals where his defense has been glaringly inefficient...If your going to post, post something original and insightful. Let's try and break down the reasons for Duncan's poor play since you seem to be a fan of the MVP. Because right now, his stats are as good as TMass's...Or is it Barry's fault that Tim can't shoot right now. If Tim would pass out of the post right now, Barry might have been a lot more effective, and had a lot more points and attempts, then the unfortunate abililty to only shoot 75% from the 3pt line in the two losses.

Turnovers = why the Spurs lost

Agre ^. 18 turnovers, yeah blame Barry :rolleyes

again, the point is not his performance in a single game but overall in this series, and no one has shown me yet that his performance has been anything expected or admirable.

game three, fine, he did an excellent job, but to the point of his shooting consistency, he has shown none. five for seven from the field sounds great but not when broken down to 4-5 in one game and 1 for 2 in another. not when that latter stat fits more comfortably with his performance from the two earlier games that you completely ignore.

can i come up with something better than "defensely challenged?" well, no, i will freely grant you that i am adhering to what a lot of other posters and experts have said in the past as well as what i've seen. what stat should i rely on? blocks? steals? he gets 1 steal every two games in this series and has blocked nothing. i don't expect him to be bowen but saying his defense is lacking is not a stretch, either. nor is it the only blow to his blamelessness that i'm pointing to.

if he were merely a defensive liability but also making shots, fine, but he has not; if he was defensively challenged yet ran the team well, fine, except that he has as many turnovers (1.3 average this series) as assists (1.5) and this is not an anomoly.

and again, there are two ways of looking at the team game, and that includes popovich's rotation. perhaps he's reluctant to play barry so many more minutes precisely because he has not seen the expected consistency. i was thrilled as anyone that they signed the guy, but he has yet to average 10 points in any of the playoffs and has dropped off from 8.6 points in the phoenix series to 3.3 now in 17 minutes. beno is averaging 10 minutes a game and has a 3 points scoring average. devin brown has an playing time average of less than 8 minutes per game this series and a scoring average of 2.5. they are providing almost as much in less time, i look at that as saying he is not bringing it as expected nor as is needed.

offenses are predicated on players meeting expectations, and that's exactly what we got in the first two games. the reason barry was less of a liability in those games was precisely because, as stated earlier, the roles of duncan, parker and ginobilli were working: they were slashing in, they were driving to the hoop, they were making the post shots. but when the first options were shut down, as was done by the lakers last year, the solid alternative was to get a guy who could shoot from the outside consistently enough to force teams not to sag down so much. barry was the guy but he has not done the job.

and poor play is in the eye of the beholder. should we seriously expect duncan to dominate a player that has consistently frustrated him? should we bash duncan when he has actually outscored rasheed and mcdyss, and even out did the entire pistons frontcourt in game one? duncan has given as much as could be expected considering the strategy being employed, which is namely to shut down the paint. there has to be a plan b when that won't work. barry was it but has not performed. however un-insightful and unoriginal my take, i've yet to see someone claim barry has met expectations or been consistent or that he was not brought in the counter this exact strategy.

and it should never be considered an embarassment to have an opinion and some facts to support and defend your position. perhaps i'm misinformed, perhaps i'm not as well versed in studying the game, but geez, gimme a break. i'm disappointed in barry, found some stats that support my disappointment, presented the idea and responded to the critique. it's insulting to be blown off by someone who does not provide the same. this should be healthy dialogue between fans, not some juvenile attempt at making someone feel stupid for caring.

my bad, Que Gee , you had provided some stats in an earlier post, i'd just forgotten it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheguevara

Agre ^. 18 turnovers, yeah blame Barry :rolleyes

---

game 5 win - 16 turnovers, we hold detroit to 44 % fg shooting

game 4 loss - 18 turnovers, we hold detroit to 45 % fg shooting

our defense was not really that much better judging by the stats, and our ability to hold on to the ball was only slightly better. the difference was we got a guy who consistently nailed three pointers and has a reputation for consistently doing so in horry, the role barry was meant to play. the payoff becomes that now no one leaves horry, giving tim, manu and parker some room. at least that's the hope in game 6.

and the refs called the game a little differently.

You can't put any of the losses on Barry. He didn't play enough or do enough to be responsible for the losses. But he doesn't deserve any credit for the wins, either.

He hasn't been a difference maker, plain and simple. The Spurs would be in the exact same position in this series if Barry hadn't played a minute.