Is it cowardly to avoid a bad post-season matchup?

This subject has been discussed, in a number of different ways, and in a number of different threads. Timvp did a good write-up in which he talked about the reasons why the Lakers are the worst matchup for the Spurs. A number of people commented that it would be cowardly to avoid the Lakers in the post-season, or even in the regular season.

Tonight, in the post-game discussion after the Phoenix-Clipper game, they were discussing the same subject. Ernie Johnson asked Shaq directly if he had ever tanked a game to try and get a particular matchup in the playoffs. Shaq immediately said no, that he had never tanked a game. But then he went on to say that he had coaches and GM's who plotted those kinds of things. And he said that he had been called in near the ends of some seasons and told to take a night or two off. Then he said something even more interesting - he said that they never wanted to have to play Utah in the playoffs.

Think about that for a minute. That was one of the Laker "dynasty" teams. With, arguably two of the three best players in the league on a single roster. (Of course Tim Duncan was the third.) And here is Shaquille Oneal saying out loud that they specifically avoided a particular team in the post-season, to the point of tanking games at the end of the season, when necessary.

Now, does that make Phil Jackson, or those Laker teams cowards? Does it somehow tarnish any of the rings, or diminish the "dynasty", because they refused to play the game "the way it was supposed to be played"? Should the Lakers have just played those last few games to win, so that they could prove that they could have beaten the Jazz, in addition to winning an NBA Championship?

I can tell you this much: Shaq didn't seem even a tiny bit embarassed about it. He was pretty matter-of-fact when he said that the Lakers "always wanted to avoid the Jazz and that pick and roll". So maybe another question would be better: If the goal is to win a title, why would you intentionally choose a route that was harder than necessary?

*runs away from thread and hides*

Memphis did a very convincing job last season demonstrating that playoff matchup tanking works.

Memphis tanked to GET the #1 seed. I get the feeling that some people think that tanking to avoid the #4 seed is somehow not a respectable thing to do. I just wanted to make the point that the three-peat Lakers tanked to avoid a bad matchup. And that's straight from the horse's mouth.

Tactical retreat, Sun Tzu style.

timvp brought up Hakeem's Rockets and they tanked to avoid a bad matchup in the Sonics IIRC, and it paid off well for them :depressed

Interesting that Shaq brought up the Jazz pick and roll, even in his prime that was one of the key weaknesses in his game....damn felt like so long ago

IMO, if it takes having to reposition your seeding to give yourself the best possible chance at an NBA finals berth, I would totally do it. There is no shame and really nothing wrong with strategizing.

Oh, and it's probably worth mentioning that in the discussion leading up to that, Kenny Smith was pretty adamant in arguing that it's not fair to the fans to tank games, and that he thinks teams should ALWAYS play to win. (It sounded like one of the others was agreeing with him, but I had to leave the room for a minute so I'm not certain.) If Kenny Smith feels that way, I'm sure that there are lots of fans who think the same way.

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Originally Posted by Cane

Interesting that Shaq brought up the Jazz pick and roll, even in his prime that was one of the key weaknesses in his game....damn felt like so long ago

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Good pickup. Right after Shaq said that, Kenny Smith asked Shaq, "how come they didn't just call you into the office and teach you how to defend the pick and roll?" :lol

It would be annoying to pay to see a playoffs team tank, but the 'real season' is in the playoffs. Us Spurs fans have had it pretty good, for an extreme tanking (or maybe just sucking) the Wolves haven't won a game in April for the past 4 years until tonight IIRC, they finally have built a talented squad.

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Originally Posted by GSH

Good pickup. Right after Shaq said that, Kenny Smith asked Shaq, "how come they didn't just call you into the office and teach you how to defend the pick and roll?" :lol

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I caught the end of the show, watching the Shaq fights in front of the MMA fighters was great. And how the hell did Ernie hit the studio

I think if the 1 seed in each conference was allowed to choose its opponent from 5 through 8 (and then the 2 seed chooses from what's left, and finally the 3 seed gets last pick) it'd make things rather interesting.

Seeds 5 through 8 no longer have an incentive to tank games, though on the flip side, if they are guaranteed a playoff spot near the end of the regular season and they're too far from the 3 seed (or 4 seed for HCA 1st round), they don't necessarily have an incentive to win games either now.

This system could really make regular season games near the end interesting for the 1 through 4 seeds, though.

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Originally Posted by jestersmash

I think if the 1 seed in each conference was allowed to choose its opponent from 5 through 8 (and then the 2 seed chooses from what's left, and finally the 3 seed gets last pick) it'd make things rather interesting.

Seeds 5 through 8 no longer have an incentive to tank games, though on the flip side, if they are guaranteed a playoff spot near the end of the regular season and they're too far from the 3 seed (or 4 seed for HCA 1st round), they don't necessarily have an incentive to win games either now.

This system could really make regular season games near the end interesting for the 1 through 4 seeds, though.

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This is an interesting idea. I think a minor modification might make it more feasible. We could let #1 pick between 7/8, and #3 get to pick between 5/6.

Thus it will eliminate tanking by 5/6 teams. Also, it's more fair to them as they don't want to get picked by a #1 team.

Phil Jackson never tanked he believed in playing every game including the meaningless ones. If your tanking what message does that send to fans. That they should stop watching or coming to games?

No. A Championship is a Championship.

Apparently we are only as good as our last game.

So we wait till after the game tonight to decide this question.

-Bipolar Spursfan

Popovich is one of, if not the best coach the Lakers have ever had.
So avoiding the Lakers may be a good thing out of respect for Pops abilities.

No Spurs championship team had fear of any opponent. Respect, for sure, but no fear. Those teams had to pass trough good teams. If they can't, it means the team isn't good enough.

The last 4 times the Spurs got eliminated in 08, 09, 10 and 11, the Lakers, Mavs, Suns and Grizzlies were much better teams, respectively. The Spurs had no business advancing further tbh.

They might have been avoiding Karl Malone's elbows.

This is an interesting topic. I know how critical matchups can be. That's why if you KNOW you can avoid a bad playoff matchup by losing one or two games at the end of the season on purpose, I could defend/accept that. Some would call that cowardly; others would call it strategy.

But as a Spurs fan, what I consider cowardly is seeing Pop forfeit so many games -- not late in the season when seeding is at stake, but basically during the entire season -- by sitting his best players so they "don't get hurt." (And I don't mean just for this season ... he's done this for a few years now, so there's a pattern of behavior.) I really despise this overprotective-mother approach that Pop has taken because I think it compromises the Spurs' mental toughness.

I was watching one of the NFL Network's programs about the Dallas Cowboys super bowl teams. They interviewed coach Jimmy Johnson, and he talked about the Pygmalion effect and his treatment and expectation of players. He didn't treat his players based on who they were, but rather as who they could and should be. And they ended up performing at that higher level.

Translate that into the Spurs situation, I wish Pop would stop treating his players like pieces of fine china who inevitably will crack. Treat them as who they could and should be: the world's best athletes, whose freakishly capable and resilient bodies will withstand the test of time.

I honestly think that Pop's coddling has been a contributing factor to some of Manu's injuries ... I think Manu EXPECTS to get hurt because his coach treats him that way, as if an injury is inevitable. How the hell else do you explain that BS injury at Phoenix last year. I mean, seriously, has anyone in the history of the NBA ever injured their arm like that? How many noses has Dirk broken with his elbow? How many other players this season have reached in for a steal and broken their hand? Why did Manu run face first into a sprinting opponent the other night? ... The more you expect to get hurt, the more you try to avoid it, the more likely it is to happen.

Cowardly? Probably.

Smart? Definitely.

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Originally Posted by Keepin' it real

what I consider cowardly is seeing Pop forfeit so many games

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2 games in the midst of 40 games in which their overall record is 33-7.

using the last 1 or 2 games of the season to place yourself in optimal position = NOT COWARDLY

scheming more than 2 games knowing there are so many unknown factors that could come back to bite you = GAY

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Originally Posted by therealtruth

Phil Jackson never tanked he believed in playing every game including the meaningless ones. If your tanking what message does that send to fans. That they should stop watching or coming to games?

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Um, try actually reading Shaq's words. Phil Jackson DID tank games, specifically to avoid the Jazz.

Of course it is cowardly.

Why does this question even have to be asked? This mentality of tanking games, resting players,etc...is a losing attitude IMO.

It used to be..."it's only pre-season...these games don't count."
Now,mainly because of Pop...it is..."it's only a regular season game...save it for the playoffs...health is the only thing that matters...blah-blah..."

Pretty soon it will be, "well Timmy sat in the first round of the playoffs...but it is only the first round...the second round is more important."

This is cowardly. Whatever happened to, "we'll play anyone-anytime...if we don't beat them then we don't deserve to be called champions."

Man up. Grow a fuckin' pair already. If you paid most people millions to play a game they would kamikaze their way through the whole season and play with fire, passion and guts. They would feel insulted to even be accused of not giving 100 percent....tanking? You wouldn't fuckin' even dare suggest that shit!.

Pussies.

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Originally Posted by silverblk mystix

Of course it is cowardly.

Why does this question even have to be asked? This mentality of tanking games, resting players,etc...is a losing attitude IMO.

It used to be..."it's only pre-season...these games don't count."
Now,mainly because of Pop...it is..."it's only a regular season game...save it for the playoffs...health is the only thing that matters...blah-blah..."

Pretty soon it will be, "well Timmy sat in the first round of the playoffs...but it is only the first round...the second round is more important."

This is cowardly. Whatever happened to, "we'll play anyone-anytime...if we don't beat them then we don't deserve to be called champions."

Man up. Grow a fuckin' pair already. If you paid most people millions to play a game they would kamikaze their way through the whole season and play with fire, passion and guts. They would feel insulted to even be accused of not giving 100 percent....tanking? You wouldn't fuckin' even dare suggest that shit!.

Pussies.

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Awwww, someone needs another hug. Here ya go:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/...518795e3cc.jpg

I don't think it's a cowardly move but it's very risky. It's even harder than tanking for the draft. You're treading a thin line when you're tanking for seeding.

It's good strategy, but it just ruins the game for everybody, point blank. The game shouldn't have to be all about matchups. A championship team should be able to take on whatever is thrown their way.

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Originally Posted by Mel_13

Awwww, someone needs another hug. Here ya go:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/...518795e3cc.jpg

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It's pretty amusing that you perceive my posts as "meltdowns"..."angry"...

lol

Just stating facts...

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Originally Posted by Mr.Bottomtooth

It's good strategy, but it just ruins the game for everybody, point blank. The game shouldn't have to be all about matchups. A championship team should be able to take on whatever is thrown their way.

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lol, I agree. If you're tanking for better positioning & matchups, you're not winning the championship.

Many past champions became champions because they were able to avoid bad playoff matchups.

I get the whole bring it on mentality but i don't know if Spurfan realizes they don't get Duncan without tanking and they probably dont get 07 without the Warriors beating the Mavs.

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Originally Posted by Fabbs

Popovich is one of, if not the best coach the Lakers have ever had.
So avoiding the Lakers may be a good thing out of respect for Pops abilities.

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:lol

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Originally Posted by silverblk mystix

It's pretty amusing that you perceive my posts as "meltdowns"..."angry"...

lol

Just stating facts...

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:lmao


Your posts are classic, textbook meltdowns. That you think otherwise just shows the level of your delusion.

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Originally Posted by Mugen

Many past champions became champions because they were able to avoid bad playoff matchups.

I get the whole bring it on mentality but i don't know if Spurfan realizes they don't get Duncan without tanking and they probably dont get 07 without the Warriors beating the Mavs.

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Two things in the 2007 season in the West:

1. Dallas had the regular season locked up for some time before the playoffs hit.
2. Golden State snuck in the playoffs on the final day of regular season.

There was no tanking involved there.

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Originally Posted by Venti Quattro

Two things in the 2007 season in the West:

1. Dallas had the regular season locked up for some time before the playoffs hit.
2. Golden State snuck in the playoffs on the final day of regular season.

There was no tanking involved there.

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My point was that positioning for seeding is a smart move. But positioning doesn't necessarily mean tanking.

Pretty sure GSW sweeped Dallas in the regular season that year so Dallas knew they were a matchup issue. And Dallas let the Warriors sneak into the playoffs by losing to them late in the season by resting their guys.

If Dallas won late in the regular season and kept the Warriors out of the playoffs then they probably ring that year.

It's a non issue. Tanking games for strategy is not against the law. People only remember rings. Rings are all that matters.

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Originally Posted by Mel_13

:lmao


Your posts are classic, textbook meltdowns. That you think otherwise just shows the level of your delusion.

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I always post with a tongue planted firmly in cheek and always enjoy pulling people's strings....

Pretty amusing...maybe it looks like I am an angry poster but most of the time it is all in fun....

... your strings are always easy to pull...

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Originally Posted by silverblk mystix

I always post with a tongue planted firmly in cheek and always enjoy pulling people's strings....

Pretty amusing...maybe it looks like I am an angry poster but most of the time it is all in fun....

... your strings are always easy to pull...

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:lmao

So you're just pretending to be an angry, hysterical fool.

Gotcha

Kurt Rambis, Skip Bayless and Jemele Hill had an interesting discussion on this topic on First Take, prompted by Shaq's admission last night that the Lakers tanked games in his day to avoid playing the Jazz. It should re-air next hour.

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Originally Posted by silverblk mystix

I always post with a tongue planted firmly in cheek and always enjoy pulling people's strings....

Pretty amusing...maybe it looks like I am an angry poster but most of the time it is all in fun....

... your strings are always easy to pull...

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Originally Posted by Mel_13

:lmao

So you're just pretending to be an angry, hysterical fool.

Gotcha

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:lmao :lmao :lmao

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Originally Posted by Keepin' it real

Kurt Rambis, Skip Bayless and Jemele Hill had an interesting discussion on this topic on First Take, prompted by Shaq's admission last night that the Lakers tanked games in his day to avoid playing the Jazz. It should re-air next hour.

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Thanks, I'll try and catch that. It will be interesting to see what Rambis has to say, especially. I have no doubt that the Lakers tanked out the 04-05 season, which got them Andrew Bynum. Boston tanked 06-07 (Ryan Gomes even said so) which ultimately got them Ray Allen and Glenn Davis, and their latest championship. And Miami tanked 02-03, along with several other teams trying to get LeBron - their consolation prize was Dwayne Wade.

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Originally Posted by Seventyniner

Um, try actually reading Shaq's words. Phil Jackson DID tank games, specifically to avoid the Jazz.

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I don't buy that. Maybe Shaq is talking about some other Lakers coach. PJ has specifically talked against tanking and called Pop out for it. He was surprised when Pop tanked that last Lakers game last season. He's said that the league doesn't like it because it's not fair to the fans. Why do you think Kobe has played all 82 several seasons? He used to routinely play Jordan, Pippen all 82.

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Originally Posted by Keepin' it real

Kurt Rambis, Skip Bayless and Jemele Hill had an interesting discussion on this topic on First Take, prompted by Shaq's admission last night that the Lakers tanked games in his day to avoid playing the Jazz. It should re-air next hour.

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Well, I just saw the segment. Rambis did exactly what I expected, and showed why he's a talking head and not a coach.

I'll keep it short. Rambis doesn't believe that the Lakers ever tanked games to avoid a matchup (Shaq must have made that up?). He doesn't believe that Memphis tanked last year, to get San Antonio in the first round. And he doesn't believe that what happens in the regular season determines what happens in the post-season. So just because a team sweeps you in the regular season, there's no reason to try to avoid them in the playoffs.

I just can't figure out why the Lakers didn't make him permanent head coach.

Yeah, I didn't care for him calling shaq a liar about tanking. But, as someone who endured the '95 elimination to the Rockets after sweeping them in the regular season, I remember that regular season success does not equal playoff success.

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Originally Posted by GSH

Well, I just saw the segment. Rambis did exactly what I expected, and showed why he's a talking head and not a coach.

I'll keep it short. Rambis doesn't believe that the Lakers ever tanked games to avoid a matchup (Shaq must have made that up?). He doesn't believe that Memphis tanked last year, to get San Antonio in the first round. And he doesn't believe that what happens in the regular season determines what happens in the post-season. So just because a team sweeps you in the regular season, there's no reason to try to avoid them in the playoffs.

I just can't figure out why the Lakers didn't make him permanent head coach.

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Originally Posted by Keepin' it real

Yeah, I didn't care for him calling shaq a liar about tanking. But, as someone who endured the '95 elimination to the Rockets after sweeping them in the regular season, I remember that regular season success does not equal playoff success.

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Yeah I would take even less from a regular season series between an eastern and western conference opponent. The sample size is way too small. So many things can impact it such as travel, injuries, schedule.

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Originally Posted by jestersmash

I think if the 1 seed in each conference was allowed to choose its opponent from 5 through 8 (and then the 2 seed chooses from what's left, and finally the 3 seed gets last pick) it'd make things rather interesting.

Seeds 5 through 8 no longer have an incentive to tank games, though on the flip side, if they are guaranteed a playoff spot near the end of the regular season and they're too far from the 3 seed (or 4 seed for HCA 1st round), they don't necessarily have an incentive to win games either now.

This system could really make regular season games near the end interesting for the 1 through 4 seeds, though.

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I've been an advocate for this idea for long time. The best records should be rewarded with their choice of opponent. Outside of helping with the playoff position tanking issue, it will also create interesting matchup/bulletin board material when, for example a number 1 seed chooses someone other than the 8 seed.

Also, I think there needs to be some $incentive$ for each individual game. Not only for the players, but the coaches and owners.

Another thing the league can do is change the draft completely.
Set it up to where everyone gets a chance to have a number one pick.
Do it in a cycle where every team gets to pick at every position once, then repeat. BUT don't do it in an announced schedule, so college players declare/not declare based on knowing the draft order. Do it in a form of lottery. Once a team is randomly drawn and receives the top pick, they're removed from getting the top pick until the cycle completes.

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Originally Posted by therealtruth

I don't buy that. Maybe Shaq is talking about some other Lakers coach. PJ has specifically talked against tanking and called Pop out for it. He was surprised when Pop tanked that last Lakers game last season. He's said that the league doesn't like it because it's not fair to the fans. Why do you think Kobe has played all 82 several seasons? He used to routinely play Jordan, Pippen all 82.

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Well, let's see. In Shaq's first two seasons in LA, the coach was Del Harris, and the Lakers lost to... wait for it... the Utah Jazz in the playoffs. His third year was the lockout season, coached by Kurt Rambis (and Rambis says that HE never tanked). So who else is left? Every other season Shaq was in LA, the coach was Phil Jackson.

After losing to the Jazz twice in the playoffs right before that, Shaq's story makes perfect sense to me. Of course, when I go look at the actual game logs, I can see that he was kept out of some games near the ends of seasons. It's hard to say, without doing a lot more work than I'm willing to do, whether it was done to try and manipulate seedings, or if it was just to give him some rest. They weren't the last couple of games, but maybe the seedings had been determined by then.

There's no way to prove any of it. Shaq sounded like he meant it, and it makes sense that they would have preferred to avoid Utah. Ryan Gomes sounded pretty believable when he said Boston tanked. Would doc rivers do that? Who knows?

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Originally Posted by Keepin' it real

Yeah, I didn't care for him calling shaq a liar about tanking. But, as someone who endured the '95 elimination to the Rockets after sweeping them in the regular season, I remember that regular season success does not equal playoff success.

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No, you're right. It doens't always mean anything. But you're a lot smarter than Kurt Rambis, and when you say it there's a reason. :D I just think Rambis is a total meathead.


For the record, I do think Dallas had a pretty good reason to have avoided Golden State (and Don Nelson) if they could have. And we all had a pretty good idea that Memphis was going to be a problem last year, based on the regular season. And I believe that the Lakers knew that Utah had the best shot at taking them out of the playoffs. Did they tank to avoid the Jazz? Who knows? Did they have reason to? Definitely.

Not EVERY post season since our 2007 title, Spurs have had a HELL of a path to the FINALS I remember having to PLOW through PHX and THEN the Dallas CUBANS then only to play the FAKERS in the WCF. It was EXHAUSTING, and we'd play fairly tired and flat. Meanwhile the FAKERS were given nearly a Red-carpet CAKE-WALK to the WCF for several years and be primed and ready to throw their best 4 games at the Spurs.

It's time that Spurs get the "Royal Treatment" in the post season, and if it means tanking a few games to get there, SO BE IT.

It's NEVER how you START the post season, it's the journey there and how you FINISH.

ALL HAIL POP!!