Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FuzzyLumpkins
And sure Neal is fine against teams that don't play defense but hes had a negative +/- against the Lakers, Memphis, Jazz, Dallas, Nuggets etc.
He's been a net positive against the Lakers this season and most of the other teams you listed, IIRC. I know he's specifically killed Dallas.
Speaking of Neal vs. Lakers, in hindsight that first Lakers game would have been a lot different if the Spurs had Neal healthy and available to play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FuzzyLumpkins
I also do not see the Splitter assertion. A 'good pass' to Splitter is a layup and Neals 2APG do not bear that out. What I see most of the time is failure to make the entry pass or more often the cross court pass you have to leap to get at or him chucking yet another shot.
I know you view your player pairs as the second coming but there are 5 guys on the and Neal's going to be the one shooting.
Neal exclusively looks for Splitter when he's making a play. That should make Splitter fan happy. And I wasn't talking about player pairs; I'm saying Splitter's actual point per minute is highest when Neal is on the court (24.7 points per 48 minutes).
But yeah, Neal is a frustrating point guard overall. It's definitely not pretty to watch. I don't blame anyone for not liking him. However, he's overall effective and I think he'll be fine in the playoffs. The fact he can provide offense without a lot of passing necessary will be a plus when the Spurs face tougher defensive teams that will be able to stay with the current fun and gun style, IMO.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
Part of Neal's problem is that at this point anybody (except Manu) coming in as a backup pint guard after Tony is going to look bad by comparison.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
Neal's consistent and obvious struggles at the backup PG spot are exactly why I'm always fearful of coaches trying to force feed a player into a position which he's not suited. Neal still, and always will. think of himself as a shooter - that's what he is. He's never going to be even a decent defender - no matter where he plays. In fact, he's atrocious.
As stated, I don't believe Mills would be much better right now, so the Spurs are somewhat stuck without another viable option.
Going forward, I just wonder how long this "Neal backup PG" experiment will last until the coaches decide to do something different?
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
Neal is very good at getting himself a good shot, and the rest of the team knows what he's going to do. It doesn't really feel like everyone's standing around watching him, and eight shots doesn't seem like too many (particularly when he hits five of them). Patty Mills is worse than Cory Joseph, so I say don't mess with it when it's working.
I wondered if Timvp and TPark were going to ridicule Neal for having so much trouble getting the ball up the floor against Steve Blake. If the ball had gone out of bounds I don't think they'd have ever forgiven him.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
What I like about Neal at PG is that they MUST pick him up just past the half court, otherwise he will walk right into a 3. He's been great creating points when we've had lapses on offense.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
Stupid thread to be honest. There's what 4 games left, I doubt Neal will play much of any minutes at PG during the playoffs. We all know he is a shooting guard, the man is doing the best he can at a position he isnt accustomed to. Neal has saved our asses a couple times this season and while hes not very good at PG, he starts good runs for us and can shoot the ball just as good as anyone in the world.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
I think Neal is fine where he is at. He's usually in there with Manu who does most of the playmaking anyway.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
While I was pushing for Mills to get the backup PG earlier this month, I now think that Neal should be the primary backup PG for the playoffs. It's now too late to make the change and Mills hasn't been good enough to be promoted at that spot.
Neal as backup PG isn't a comfortable situation and Pop will have to keep a close eye on it. He could turn into a liability in some games most likely because he will failed to defend the quickest PGs of the league. In this case, Pop should put Mills on the court who matches well with the quick, small PGs. What will help doing that is that Pop has been able to give some minutes to Mills during the regular season.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
He's certainly a 2 but he has some playmaking skills and as long as he doesn't have to run point all game he's fine.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Obstructed_View
Neal is very good at getting himself a good shot, and the rest of the team knows what he's going to do. It doesn't really feel like everyone's standing around watching him, and eight shots doesn't seem like too many (particularly when he hits five of them). Patty Mills is worse than Cory Joseph, so I say don't mess with it when it's working.
I wondered if Timvp and TPark were going to ridicule Neal for having so much trouble getting the ball up the floor against Steve Blake. If the ball had gone out of bounds I don't think they'd have ever forgiven him.
Couldn't seethe game so idea what your talking about.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
Neal has really emerged this season, and it's no doubt thanks to that amazing shot he scored last season. It's been said that Neal is an 'ugly' PG but considering how stacked the team is at the wings, Neal is lucky Pop has carved out a spot for him. Neal is obviously not a point naturally but a scorer and so that's just the style he's going to play. Apparently Pop doesn't mind it but we'll have to see if it works when the games start slowing down and meaning something. I'm especially worried about Neal bringing up the ball against pressure. He has trouble getting across the half court line in time it seems and usually just holds it near mid court until there's nothing to do but shoot it.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
I haven't really noticed any major problems with Neal at PG....yes, his ball handling isn't the best and his passing isn't perfect, but it's good enough to get the job done.
When he gets by his man and pulls up for a J, it's good every. single. time. When guys start stepping up to counter that, I'm sure he'll drop it off.
Patty has been way worse from what I've seen, and maybe it's because he doesn't have chemistry with the guys yet...but Neal has been leagues better as far as running the team, especially with Manu there to back him up.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SenorSpur
Going forward, I just wonder how long this "Neal backup PG" experiment will last until the coaches decide to do something different?
Tbh, I hope it's permanent. Neal is one of the most dangerous backup point guards in the NBA. And while his defense can turn even subpar backup PGs into superstars, he has nowhere to go but up at that end.
I was skeptical at first but now I think Neal as the backup point guard is one of the strengths of this team headed into the playoffs.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
timvp
Tbh, I hope it's permanent. Neal is one of the most dangerous backup point guards in the NBA. And while his defense can turn even subpar backup PGs into superstars, he has nowhere to go but up at that end.
I was skeptical at first but now I think Neal as the backup point guard is one of the strengths of this team headed into the playoffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DAF86
I'm surprised at all that red in Neal's offensive numbers.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
This is one of the oddest threads I've ever read... coming after a win in which Neal played pretty decently? The mans offense is not an issue at all, he's been hot as hell lately. Nothing to bitch about imo.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
And criticizing Spurs offense with Neal at the PG slot is weird. It may looks ugly but it's damn effective.
In the playoffs Neal will be paired with Manu at SG. The PG/SG combo of Neal/Manu have played 184 minutes together and have scored 121.3 points per 100 possessions in these minutes. For reference, Spurs average 110.3 points per 100 possessions.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
Roger Mason Jr at point guard took away two things: A backup point guard to run the team and the best three point shooter on the team. Gary Neal at backup point guard is at least equally effective as a shooter, and he gets Parker some rest. Mission accomplished.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruno
And criticizing Spurs offense with Neal at the PG slot is weird. It may looks ugly but it's damn effective.
In the playoffs Neal will be paired with Manu at SG. The PG/SG combo of Neal/Manu have played 184 minutes together and have scored 121.3 points per 100 possessions in these minutes. For reference, Spurs average 110.3 points per 100 possessions.
But that's a decrease of the team pts while Manu is on the floor. In fact this happens pairing Neal with a lot of guys in the squad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
timvp
I gotta say it surprised me a lot.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DAF86
But that's a decrease of the team pts while Manu is on the floor. In fact this happens pairing Neal with a lot of guys in the squad.
It's not the same sample.
In my sample, Manu is at 121.1 and Neal is at 112.5.
source: http://basketballvalue.com/index.php
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruno
Oh yeah. timvp's are from after the all-star break I think. Still surprised by those numbers.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
timvp
He's been a net positive against the Lakers this season and most of the other teams you listed, IIRC. I know he's specifically killed Dallas.
Speaking of Neal vs. Lakers, in hindsight that first Lakers game would have been a lot different if the Spurs had Neal healthy and available to play.
Neal exclusively looks for Splitter when he's making a play. That should make Splitter fan happy. And I wasn't talking about player pairs; I'm saying Splitter's actual point per minute is highest when Neal is on the court (24.7 points per 48 minutes).
But yeah, Neal is a frustrating point guard overall. It's definitely not pretty to watch. I don't blame anyone for not liking him. However, he's overall effective and I think he'll be fine in the playoffs. The fact he can provide offense without a lot of passing necessary will be a plus when the Spurs face tougher defensive teams that will be able to stay with the current fun and gun style, IMO.
Lakers 4/20: -6
Lakers 4/17: +5
Suns 4/14: -16
Memphis 4/12: 0
Jazz 4/9: -4
Jazz 4/8: -3
Boston: 4/4: +7
Pacers: 3/31: +2
Suns 3/27: +2
76ers: 3/25: +2
Dallas 3/23: +4
Dallas 3/17: -2
OKC 3/16: -8
Magic: 3/14 +11
Clips: 3/9 -11 started
Knicks 3/7: +6 started
Nuggets 3/4: -4
Bulls 2/29: -14
Nuggets 2/23: +5
I stopped at that point but my hypothesis that he has been worse as of late has borne out and I really worry about teams that can play good PG defense such as the Bulls, Grizz and Clips. Paul just rapes him.
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplaye...-2012&team=SAS
His adjusted =/- is bad. Unfortunately so is Jax =/. His unadjusted is worst on the team of those with meaningful playing time.
I get Blair and Dick but Neal is down there with him but you want to keep this permanent?
Re: Gary "Black Hole" Neal
I think Neal should continue to be the backup PG but I've always thought he should have some help by committee.
He has positive offensive pairings with Diaw and Jackson. I think either one of those could help bring the ball up the court in a pinch, which to me, is really the only major concern I have as far the the Neal PG experiment goes.
I agree that he looks for his own shot, but guess what, so does Mills and he is way less effective. Neal has the temperament for PO basketball. He needs to be out there. Tony is having a career year so there's no reason to cut Tony's minutes back...so Neal is going to play.
Random tangent....
The second unit IS the difference for the Spurs this year. No reason to try and mess with that.
I can't stand number crunching, but I would be interested to see statistics as to when the Spurs typically gain their leads in a game. My hunch is that it's usually in the 3rd quarter as a result of the second unit going on a scoring burst that breaks the game wide open.
And really, all the talk of the Spurs high scoring seems to really be a component of the second unit. It's almost as if the starting unit is like a shadow of the former great Spurs team of the past with a more traditional attack and a slightly greater emphasis on defense with Leonard, Green, Parker, and Duncan.
And then the second unit comes in playing a vastly different brand of basketball. I wonder if this screwball is what throws teams off. I can imagine opposing coaches trying to make adjustments in the first half against whatever transpired in the first half, but with the team's Gemini nature, I can see how it would be difficult to adjust on the fly and prepare against the Spurs with the different styles of play all wrapped together into an unusual gestalt. Anyway, just a theory I'm working on...
