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Timing? Technique? Awareness? Why is he more open? What makes him more effective than so many other players?
Some of his success comes from his excellent footwork and how he flares a bit on the roll to get an extra couple of feet of spacing. What say ye?
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Whatever it is, he needs to keep doing it. Him and Manu execute that to perfection
Timing more than anything. Rarely have I seen any player that times his cut to the basket so perfectly.
They actually play real team basketball outside the USA when they are young. And learn actual plays and how to run them. They do this over and over and over again until it's instinctual. And they are praised for it. Instead of one-on-one play, three-point shots, and open dunks being the things that are celebrated like they are here.
USA-bred big men just don't know how to run a decent screen and roll against real defense.
You said it.. Solid D. Great timing and anticipation.. and I suppose, being the recipient of some excellent coaching as well. Besides being nimble is a function of his body shape - very angular and lean 7 footer with tremendous instincts even if made of rugged skills.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by benefactor
He also knows exactly what spot to go to and rolls perfectly off the play. He has a quick and long first step when he rolls too. I was kinda surprised when people didn't mention him as one of the better bball IQ players we have. It takes a smart ball player to read a pick and roll perfectly.
Reminds me of watching the 4th quarter of Miami vs. NY last night. Wow, that was awful. It was the antithesis of team basketball. It was, dump it to D. Wade or Carmelo and let them do their thing. Dribble, dribble, jab step, crossover, spin, fadeaway contested jumper. Everyone else standing around. I'm sitting there yelling at the TV... "what a pile of crap!" and thinking to myself, "the Spurs would easily beat down either one of these teams if they play like that."
Yet, every one of these idiot USA fans and commentators are going apeshit over the amazing game. This is exactly what's wrong with basketball in this country. The celebration of one-on-one offensive skills, 3-point shots, and dunks. Who gives a crap about team offense, or defense at all.
That's a really good question :lol
I've watched many a Splitter pick-and-roll in slow motion trying to figure that out. Tbh, I don't think it's hyperbole to say Splitter gets more open following a pick than any player in the NBA. You'd probably have to go back to Karl Malone to find a bigman who gets so open so consistently.
I still can't put my finger on what exactly it is. In Spain, especially after Scola left, all Tau did was run pick-and-roll with Splitter. He got open quite a bit in Europe ... but he gets even more open in the NBA.
It's obviously gotta be a combination of things. As you mentioned, timing has a lot to do with it. He knows the exact millisecond to roll to the bucket. Splitter also rolls at the right speed and varies that speed depending on the situation. He's also great at keeping his hips perpendicular to the baseline, which opens him up to any kind of pass.
Other factors: a wide base that allows him to set strong picks, good hands (and coordination) that allows him to catch almost every pass and the court sense to visualize where defenders are going to move as the play unfolds.
I'm anxious to see what happens when teams really scout to stop Splitter pick-and-rolls. Right now, I think he's still flying under the radar. Perhaps they'll be an answer to stop him from getting open just about every team. Or maybe the Spurs just have a damn good weapon going forward . . .
"Because he sets great screens" in the first place.
-Skip Bayless
Meh, that's a go-to excuse but what other foreign bigs run pick-and-rolls nearly as well as Splitter? I can't think of any who are in the same ballpark, tbh. Oberto set good picks but he was rarely ever open when rolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by YoMamaIsCallin
Part of the NBA success has to be who is guarding splitter. It's most likely a slow center, right?
I wonder what bosh-Lebron, or Kobe-Bynum would do. A player like Lebron might be able to switch on the screen and easily intercept any pass splitter's way. Maybe Kobe too.
I'm hoping that's Pop's real reason for playing him so few minutes - as a surprise tactic in the 2nd half of a must-win playoff game.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
It's a combo of a lot of things, IMO. A lot of it has to do with the Spurs make up.
It starts with Manu and Tony's threat to penetrate. When there's a pick, the other team's defense light bulb goes off and they don't even think about hedging- they just double. And when the 3rd defender is late on the help Splitter just makes a hard cut to the basket and he's open.
The reason the 3rd defender is usually late is because of the Spurs shooters. When Tiago's out there, it's usually Bonner or Jack that are at the three point line. Defenders are wary of leaving them, so if they do help on the cutter it'll only be halfway. And Splitter is such a good finisher at the rim that halfway help defense isn't going to stop him.
The reason he has more success than Duncan/Blair? Because he's a worse shooter. He can't shoot outside of 5 feet, and everyone in the NBA knows this. So when there's a pnr, HIS defender has no qualms leaving him because he's thinking "if he just pops he won't shoot, and if he gets all the way inside then my help has plenty of time to get there". Problem is the help doesn't get there, and if he does then a shooter's open.
Hayes knows the help should already be set, so he doubles Parker to eliminate the penetration. Problem is Jimmer and Garcia are only half ready, because they know a kickout to Bonner or Jack is likely if they're too far in. So this half-assed help allows Tiago to basically be uncontested. If Jack and Bonner aren't shooters, the help defense commits at the free throw line, Tiago doesn't get as easy a shot. If TP isn't a threat to drive (problem for the D is, Neal/Patty/Manu are also threats to get in the paint), Hayes stays put and doesn't even bother helping on the PG.
Same thing on the GSW play. Double Manu, the help is weak because of the shooters. Splitter with an easy one.
In this play NJ gambles and leaves Mattie, so they actually help all the way. Problem is they're the Nets and they suck, so the defense is late anyways and Splitter gets the dunk. But if a good/non sucky defender were to try this, Splitter may not be wide open, but because they helped all the way Bonner is wide open for a three.
Perhaps the biggest example of my points. Double Manu, Cunningham is RIGHT THERE but he's like "OH SHIT I FORGOT THE GINGER" leaving the lane wide open.
So yeah:
1) Manu/TP/Neal's threat to penetrate breaks down the defense early as it causes doubles on the screens. (if we had Hill running the point, Splitter would not nearly be as effective).
2) Weak help defense because the shooters are always a threat. (If we had Bogans, the defense would not be as adamant about leaving the shooter. I'm interested to see how Splitter does when Kawhi's on the floor, because he's not as deadly as our other wings from outside).
3) Splitter isn't a threat from the outside like Timmy or even from 10 feet like Blair, so Splitter's guy will almost always help double on the PG, leaving Tiago free to cut.
I'd say it has a lot to do with his teammate's abilities, though Splitter's talent for the pnr is still pretty good.
/gnsf
To add to this, the teams that BEST defended us so far have elite defensive PG's. Namely Rose, Conley, and Rondo (though Conley and Rondo were only good for like one half). What they do is they're able to stop Tony's penetration without help from a big. That way the big stays put on his guy and the wings have no reason to leave the shooters (leaving the pnr and simple spread motion obsolete. the only play left is 4 down, or whatever fancy shit happens when Tony/Manu are on the floor together). Look at how Rose stopped TP in that one game- completely shut him down. Therefore Bonner and RJ barely got off a shot. The Bulls defense dwarfed Blair and contained Tim pretty well. Green performed well probably because no one scouted him as a shooter, and Neal played well because he could get a shot off even without penetrating- albeit contested.
Cut off the head, the pnr dies, the shooters die. This is when Manu/Tim have to step up and be dominant (and why Manu/TP are so lethal on the court at the same time, and if we rely on Neal to take over the game we're in trouble tbh). Luckily our future PG opponents aren't really Tony stoppers unless we play Memphis.
I would agree with the consensus here that the majority is the timing of the release to the basket..couple with a wide base, and strong lower body that allows him to really hold ground when making contact..
I like the fact he has been going up strong lately as well, as he should being damn near 7 feet tall..
Oberto was pretty good as well. With Splitter on the pick and roll the Spurs have a pretty good alternative if the lane is closed or the jumpers aren't falling.
That's not a good enough reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by rmt
Great take by justinandimcool. Solid work to establish the importance of Tony Parker and his presence making Splitter so good.
I've been searching for an example of a failed pnr to illustrate my point and it actually happened last game
Neal draws the double, breaking down the defense early. Check. No problemo. Step two is that the help doesn't leave the shooters much and we've got an easy score.
BUT Diaw isn't spaced. Furthermore he's too far beneath to get a good pass to him that won't be intercepted. His defender has large incentive to leave him (though it looks like the Jazz were gonna pack the paint no matter what, because they leave Jack too).
Point is, the Spurs spacing and deadly shooters makes it so help D has less incentive to leave, leaving the paint open. Here there was no reason to stay on Diaw, so the help comes, leaving Splitter ineffective (the positive was that if he gotten the pass to Jack half a second sooner and on target, we get 3 points- he just bobbled it a little). SAME THING happens on the Diaw pnr, they leave Splitter to close in on Boris knowing Tiago won't step out for a 13 foot jumper. They had the right idea with Tiago going to the basket, but Favors just happens to be too good.
The best part about this is that even though the pnr was stopped to a halt, we had two almost wide open chances to score because of the spacing (even though it wasn't perfect). Jack was wide open if he didn't get a bad pass, and if that was anyone other than Favors we get a pump-fake and one.
Quality take but snipped mostly for space. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by justinandimcool
As for the bolded, I may be misremembering things but I seem to recall that all things considered last season Splitter had a fair amount of chemistry with Hill (and obviously none with Neal) on the pnr but that Hill didn't always see him getting open? I'm terrible at finding and using stats but are there anything out there to that effect?
Not disagreeing with your overall point but I digress.
I don't remember stats or even specific plays, but Hill in general is just not as quick or talented to be a finisher in the paint, NOR was he good enough a playmaker/passer to finish the play even if he did happen to break down the defense. If Splitter and him played a good pnr, then that's a huge shock to me. I blocked out last season from my memory though :lol
If I'm not giving enough credit to Splitter's abilities, it's because I just don't see it. Sometimes his picks are absolute shit and he still gets open :lol He's only a decent finisher at the rim, to be honest---when there's a defender there it gets really messy. His timing is good, I'll give you that.
The Spurs offense and personnel is just the perfect recipe to breakdown the defense- it's unlike anything I've ever seen. If Splitter can do this on another team it'll really say something about him (clips from Europe anyone?). But for now his success says more about Pop and his teammates strengths. Because I'd even argue that the system is the very reason Splitter's dominating pnr, Duncan's nailing more jumpers, and the reason Blair was able to be decent starting this year. Even with Bowen and Fin our spacing has never been more beneficial for our non-MVP quality bigs than it is now.
quick legs and always moving after the screen
I don't blame you. I had actually completely forgotten about Hill until you brought him up in that other post. :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by justinandimcool
But yeah, Splitter played his best pick and roll with Manu and Hill last season. Neal wasn't running the point and Splitter didn't really play with Parker back then so to an extent that's by default.
Now that I've actually thought about the topic though, the fact that he did play decent pnr with Hill shows that some of it is his own abilities and I'd say that Pop and the make-up of the Spurs offense has maximized him on that play more.
I think there's another post in this thread that said something to the effect that Splitter played the pnr in Europe and was able to get open and produce at a high level (MVP) but is doing even better in the NBA. To me that's where your take on the spacing, shooters, and importance of Manu/TP comes in.
So, yeah, I'm still inclined to say that it's a combination of both factors at work there because there are other players on our team (Blair anyone?) who can roll on the same play but won't produce at the same level. Splitter has one of the highest conversion rates in the league on that play I think.
I say to you, why ist the sky blue?
Nice sum-up. I may be selling Splitter a bit short then, or I am just so spoiled by his high conversion that his failed pnr's look awful by comparison :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by TheSkeptic
In Blair's defense, I think teams have scouted his 10 foot runner and occasional set shot- so Blair's man doesn't leave him nearly as much as Splitter's man does. Blair being shorter does handicap his finishing rate compared to Splitter's, but the main thing is that his man doesn't leave him as much. Otherwise I think he does almost as well as Splitter. I also think the tendency to double Manu when he goes left is the reason Blair and Ginobili pnr works so well.
As counter intuitive as it sounds, Blair's 10 foot range hurts him. If he were to increase the range like Timmy or (eliminate the 10 foot shot altogether like Tiago) he would be much more valuable. Him being able to score only 10 feet away in the paint or closer gives his defender kind of a safety net, like "if I double Manu/TP it's ok because my guy is only a few steps away". So either they honor the runner and don't leave him at all, but if they do leave him and Blair doesn't cut hard--the pnr with Dejuan is basically pointless because he doesn't draw defenders far enough. Not to mention his height hampers things.
http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursna...with-splitter/Quote:
“I thought it was going to be the end of the season for me,” Splitter said.
Splitter thought he had broken his left wrist while bracing himself during an awkward fall in Game 1 of the Spurs’ series with Utah.
Quote:
“We need him against big lineups, small lineups, whatever it is,” Duncan said. “He gives us another great option to have.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinandimcool
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...gif?1318992465
because you can't, lol.
/gnsf
Can Diaw handle the ball well enough to run the pnr with Splitter? I can just imagine Gasol and Bynum stumbling around trying to keep up. Just add in Manu, Neal, and Green/Jax camped out around the arc; open shot every time, no?
Actually that's exactly Tiago's problem. He makes more often than not but when he misses it's *really* ugly. I'm hoping with a little more time on the court he can settle in. He's shown signs of a developing post game and he seems to learn quickly. I suspect the transition would be ugly but once he puts it together he could be a (relative) beast imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by justinandimcool
Completely agree on Dejuan. Starting him definitely hasn't done him in any favours (other than make his defense look passable) but I think he could be a useful player off the bench. I think that even if he's moved to the second unit that he would probably still need to extend his range a little more. In a perfect world he'd be more like Malik Rose in terms of skill level.
As for the numbers, I found this article.
"While DeJuan's points per possessions as the roll man are still great (1.16 PPP, good for 17th in the league) Tiago Splitter's are far superior (1.39 PPP, good for 2nd in the league). What Blair does well on offense, Splitter does better (1.21 PPP in offensive boards) and he's a much more productive player both in the post (0.76 PPP for Tiago, 0.68 for DeJuan) and cutting to the basket (1.27 PPP for Tiago, 1.17 PPP for DeJuan)."
I knew Tiago was one of the best as the roll man but I definitely wasn't expecting him to be 2nd in the league tbh.
This has probably already been posted on this board but here's the link if you're interested in the rest.
http://www.poundingtherock.com/2012/...ter-tim-duncan
Splitter has been doing the P&R professionally since he was 18. It is an acquired talent honed by years of practice.
Notice that he has great hands and catches many passes that most centers would miss and this helps when you have passers like Manu who often try--and succeed because Splitter makes the catch--to thread the needle with a difficult bounce pass or a pass that has a very small window of opportunity.
A passer like Manu makes Splitter look good but conversely a player like Splitter makes the passer look good as well. A beautiful symbiosis between players that complement each other.
so if Tiago is beasting on screen/rolls it's because he has no mid range JS, I'm kiddingood read justinandimcool ! :tu
While Manu and TP obviously help Splitter get open, Splitter has been successful with many others -- including Jackson and Neal. In fact, statistically, Neal is actually Splitter's most lethal pick-and-roll partner.Quote:
Originally Posted by justinandimcool
Plus, this doesn't explain why he was such a beast in Europe in pick-and-rolls.
Good point. Specifically, the Spurs keeping Bonner next to Splitter a lot certainly helps open up the court.Quote:
Originally Posted by justinandimcool
Though, as for the Leonard, he statistically doesn't bog things down for Splitter.
Eh, I can't buy that. Splitter doesn't get open because he can't shoot. No one is rushing to pick up Blair any other interior oriented bigmen in the league and they don't get so wide open.Quote:
Originally Posted by justinandimcool
Overall, good post though. :tu
Splitter has outstanding agility and good physical tools for a big, he's more like a power forward than a center when it comes to athleticism. Even fellow Brazilian Anderson Varejao was fantastic at setting screens and being a mobile big body on the court, but Sideshow Bob's offensive game is garbage compared to Tiago's.
Tiago never gives up on the chance of getting the ball, he's always moving and getting an open look
Splitter: "I Want The Ball. I Need The Ball."
Because he's bla... Oh right. Good question
:lol Tony yelled at him in game 3 for doing just that when his pass went astray. The funny thing is that the "banana cut" is almost like flaring on a 2 on one break. You force a decision and make the ball handler's life a LOT easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid D
ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by YoMamaIsCallin
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildbill2u
I agree he has been doing so long that it is second nature to make the cut. But he has been doing it since he was 15 not 18. Manu has been doing it for the last 16 to 18 years at a high level.
There is one thing I think needs to be pointed out about Splitter. His first step after the screen is so quick that he is moving before the defender knows where he is going. And that step is directly at the basket. He is not fast just quick with that first step.
Splitter played with Prigioni a lot of seasons.He learned a lot from him.
That's the biggest reason. It was their favourite play in Spain. They did the same a lot of times.
Scola had the same teacher and he's good playing pick & roll too.
First and foremost is lateral speed.
If one is slow, and has good timing, thats a good thing.
If one is quick laterally, and has good timing, thats a great thing.
I also think his quick feet help him to use the appropriate amount of his body to set the screen. He gets his body at the correct angle so he can use most of it if needed. This also means good ability to read the changing angle of the dribbler and pace of the dribbler. Does the screen require just a bit of a brush because Tony or Manu are at high speed?, or is a herky jerky move that requires longer body contact before breaking it off... Tiago can sense it.
Now get his hands better in traffic like Tim, and go up with the ball strong using his body a bit more, and he will really excel. Hit more FT's when foulded... Lots of upside to Tiago.
It still amazes me how little vertical both he an Tim have though... Tim never had it and now I think he actually jumps into the floor, a negative vertical(last year anyway). Triple that with Bonner. we cannot jump.
I've seen videos of Splitter swishing jumpers in games overseas. I wonder why he no longer does it.