MSNBC's Chris Matthews goes full-on...

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

How do you feel about people who support legislation against murder?

Just understand that most pro choice people don't see abortion any different than murder. If legislation against murder is oppression, then so be it.

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I think you meant anti-choice.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

I think you meant anti-choice.

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Oh yes.

The choice to murder.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Really? He specifically said that abortions should be able to be done all the way up until the child crowns? I must have missed that since that would seem to be the other extreme to no abortions.

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His position has always been he would not interfere, under any circumstances, with a woman's choice to get an abortion. And, he held this position when specifically asked about late-term abortions.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Great! This is why I am pro-Choice, so that those women have the right to choose that option.

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But, how do you square that in the context of women who honestly believe abortion is the taking of a human life?

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Until such time as we have a single payor system (or a quasi single payor system such as Germany), this is the way to get everyone covered for what is a issue which most certainly will affect their health. If you don't like it, rally the troops to amend the aca to move to a single payor (or even better, germany-like system).

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Single payer would still violate the reservations of religious groups or people whose tax dollars go to the provision contraception, abortifacients, or abortions.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

As far as this goes, I had read a book by carl sagan where he tackles the subject in a pretty reasonable manner. Every time it comes up I go and look for it, but couldn't find it (I was looking in the wrong book). This is briefly what he says in "Dragons of Eden"

To get the full context of this particular conversation go here:
http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvin...gonsofeden.pdf

and start on the end of page 134 and go through the beginning of 138

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I think that's a reasonable position to hold but, it doesn't encompass all thinking on the matter and it's just as reasonable for someone to hold the position that human life begins at conception. It's certainly a more reasonable position than calling the fetus a parasitic piece of tissue, imo.

any woman that thinks abortion is taking a life shouldn't get an abortion.

/done

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Originally Posted by CuckingFunt

That's a pretty important difference, though.

The way I read it, Yoni's comment seemed to indicate that anti-abortion policy or the Republican's platform of legislating away a woman's choice can't be part of the "war on women" because other women support it.

A woman being anti-abortion on a personal level is not, in my opinion, an example of internalized oppression. A woman supporting anti-abortion legislation, however, absolutely is.

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I think if the Left would ever recognize it is a reasonable position to believe a human life is created at conception it would follow that vehement opposition to abortion is a reasonable response to that belief.

Instead, they dehumanize the unborn child and call those who hold the position extreme.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Instead, they dehumanize the unborn child and call those who hold the position extreme.

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Then they are so against the death penalty for adults.

Why is the death people OK for the innocent, but not the guilty. I never understood this.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

I think if the Left would ever recognize it is a reasonable position to believe a human life is created at conception it would follow that vehement opposition to abortion is a reasonable response to that belief.

Instead, they dehumanize the unborn child and call those who hold the position extreme.

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Yeah, let them be born, THEN we can treat them as sub-human when their parents can't afford them and deny them social programs while lining the pockets of red/blue team higher ups while we're all distracted.

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Originally Posted by Bill_Brasky

Yeah, let them be born, THEN we can treat them as sub-human when their parents can't afford them and deny them social programs while lining the pockets of red/blue team higher ups while we're all distracted.

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Poverty is the excuse for murder?

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Poverty is the excuse for murder?

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The death penalty is murder. Whats your point?

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Originally Posted by Bill_Brasky

Yeah, let them be born, THEN we can treat them as sub-human when their parents can't afford them and deny them social programs while lining the pockets of red/blue team higher ups while we're all distracted.

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Thanks for missing the point. Your response suggests we should be okay will taking innocent human life post-partum, as well.

If it's reasonable to believe a human life is created at conception, it is reasonable to be vehemently opposed to all abortion...regardless of the consequences that grow from that opposition.

I'd rather work on solutions dealing with what you suggest than willingly allow the murder of innocent children.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

most certainly ElNono are getting their talking points form some liberal outlet.

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more narratives... smh

I read news from everywhere... NY Times, LA Times, BBC, Reuters... I also use the google news aggregation quite a bit, which takes you to completely different places...

That you're obsessed with shitty talking points doesn't mean everyone else is, tbh...

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Poverty is the excuse for murder?

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Like always, you completely miss the point and try to project the super vague "murder" thing on me. I never said I was for or against abortion, just pointing out that if a person has no choice but to have a baby that they aren't able to afford, they should be awarded proper benefits to see to it that the child grows up in a suitable environment and isn't eating candy canes for dinner every night.

But you don't care about people that are actually alive and struggling I assume.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Thanks for missing the point. Your response suggests we should be okay will taking innocent human life post-partum, as well.

If it's reasonable to believe a human life is created at conception, it is reasonable to be vehemently opposed to all abortion...regardless of the consequences that grow from that opposition.

I'd rather work on solutions dealing with what you suggest than willingly allow the murder of innocent children.

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Who are we to take a life of a criminal?

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

And Barack Obama has come out as far left as possible, on this issue but, no one in the liberal media is calling that extreme.

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:lol at finding a way to shoehorn in this week's republican talking point

SBA List to launch Missouri ads against Obama on abortion

The GOP should make Obama’s extremist abortion position an issue

Unearthed Video Shows Obama Supporting Late-Term Abortions

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Thanks for missing the point. Your response suggests we should be okay will taking innocent human life post-partum, as well.

If it's reasonable to believe a human life is created at conception, it is reasonable to be vehemently opposed to all abortion...regardless of the consequences that grow from that opposition.

I'd rather work on solutions dealing with what you suggest than willingly allow the murder of innocent children.

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No you wouldn't. You've come out repeatedly as anti-welfare. You know who's on welfare? People with 8 kids that they can't afford.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

I will admit, that I don't read every single thread here, but I am not sure that I have seen people say that Romney is extreme (unless we are talking about boutons). Akin is extreme, Ryan has come out as far right as possible (at least on this issue). Romney allows for a little leeway. However, part of the Republican's platform is to legislate away a choice for a woman which seems like at least an attack if not a war on women.

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Mitt is a guy I was considering voting for. And while I don't think he's necessarily extreme, he panders and looks subservient to the more extreme part of the party, while not even really trying to appeal to guys like me. So he hasn't earned my vote, at least yet. Neither has Barry, btw.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Mitt is a guy I was considering voting for. And while I don't think he's necessarily extreme, he panders and looks subservient to the more extreme part of the party, while not even really trying to appeal to guys like me. So he hasn't earned my vote, at least yet. Neither has Barry, btw.

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Mitt also looks socially awkward trying to connect to normal people.

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Originally Posted by djohn2oo8

Who are we to take a life of a criminal?

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A society that values innocent life and wishes to prevent a recurrence from at least one person that doesn't value it, to the point they were willing to kill.

That's who we are.

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Originally Posted by djohn2oo8

The death penalty is murder. Whats your point?

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There was a trial.

Was there a trial to determine the guilt of a fetus prior to it's death sentence?

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

There was a trial.

Was there a trial to determine the guilt of a fetus prior to it's death sentence?

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abortion is not a crime.

you drunk again?

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Originally Posted by clambake

abortion is not a crime.

you drunk again?

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Thanks for being too dumb to understand my point.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

His position has always been he would not interfere, under any circumstances, with a woman's choice to get an abortion. And, he held this position when specifically asked about late-term abortions.

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link please? also unless he specifically stated that you can't restrict a woman's choice until the baby crowns, then he isn't "as far left on the issue" as you have stated.

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But, how do you square that in the context of women who honestly believe abortion is the taking of a human life?

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I square it by stating that based on their belief, they should not get an abortion.

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Single payer would still violate the reservations of religious groups or people whose tax dollars go to the provision contraception, abortifacients, or abortions.

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So you approve of everything that your taxes pay for?

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I think that's a reasonable position to hold but, it doesn't encompass all thinking on the matter and it's just as reasonable for someone to hold the position that human life begins at conception. It's certainly a more reasonable position than calling the fetus a parasitic piece of tissue, imo.

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I would say that your idea that a group of human cells is human opens up far more issues than it solves, especially since I just cut my finger nails last night.
Also
A fetus is, by definition, a parasite.

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an animal or plant that lives in or on another (the host) from which it obtains nourishment. The host does not benefit from the association and is often harmed by it

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^why are you so obsessed over unborn fetuses that you don't have any compassion or empathy for the living?(directed at WC)

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

A society that values innocent life and wishes to prevent a recurrence from at least one person that doesn't value it, to the point they were willing to kill.

That's who we are.

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Except people still kill people with knowledge of the death penalty. It deters no one and lets them off easy. It is also still murder.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

There was a trial.

Was there a trial to determine the guilt of a fetus prior to it's death sentence?

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What about those who were raped? Where is their trial?

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

How do you feel about people who support legislation against murder?

Just understand that most pro choice people don't see abortion any different than murder. If legislation against murder is oppression, then so be it.

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Try as the anti-abortion/pro-life folk might, it is impossible to take the lives of adult women out of the abortion conversation.

My belief is that legislation intended to make abortion illegal, or illegal except in certain instances, or to otherwise remove and/or control a woman's ability to make decisions regarding her own body is inherently oppressive to women.