http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/...e_east#.UFR_JJ
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FailQuote:
Originally Posted by InRareForm
Um, how is it a failure? He's right.... decades of meddling in the Middle East have helped completely destroy our reputation in the region, tbh....Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
Then let's leave and see if they "self correct".Quote:
Originally Posted by Clipper Nation
because they still believe in fairy tales about a man in the sky. Their philosophy of life is not compatible with our democracy that stems from the Judeo/Christian values of the new testament. But we have separated our religious and political lives, and they don't like that because it is a threat to their very existence of their culture. Arabs have never liked Europeans period!(They love our beautiful women though). They threw the first punch ever sense Europeans lived like Hunter gatherers. We have to finish the fight!
Relations will continue to be bad as long as politicians, mainly the right continue to take money from zionists and Christian Zionists, who manipulate their ignorant followers/sheep. This is one of reasons I won't be voting Republican in the near future.
Why don't we leave and not give a shit about it one way or another?Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
they wont. Islam is a threat to humanity. Every country where they are the majority is shitty. They kill Christians/Jews and atheist people but you will never hear it from our pro-liberal musllim Government. Their still mad about the Crusades:lmao The media tells you that it was a holy war against the arabs, but in reality it was to stop the spread of Islam to the rest of Europe and liberate the Spanish and Portuguese. Sharia law fuckin sucks ass!!! You should thank our Europeans ancestors if not World history would of been way different. Imagine Muslim North and South America. Fuck no!Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
You have a very strange understanding of history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginobilly
The Crusades were about the rule (ownership) of Jerusalem, promoted by the Christian churches (the Catholics being the most vocal).
The liberation of certain parts of Europe from the Muslim conquerors, had nothing to do with the Crusades. The conquest of Europe by the Muslims had nothing to do with hate but with the expansion of the "only true" faith to Europe and the political and economic gains that came with it. The Catholic church was doing the same thing with pretty much the same methods too. So let's not pretend that we are so much better.
That is the fuckin truth! Arabs will never like westerns. We give them so much money for their oil that it's not the Americans peoples fault that their corrupt leaders spend on themselves and not invest it on their people. Then their leaders make us out to be the bad guys by spreading anti-American hate and propaganda. We are in a loosing battle as long as their leaders don't invest on their own people. But why don't they invest? Because it's more profitable for the Muslim elite in those countries to keep them the way they are. Dumb, uneducated, ignorance, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by mingus
Christians giving their take on the Crusades is always some of the funniest revisionist history out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo
Yes, but the Catholic church belongs to Europeans derived from a mix of European Pagan and middle Eastern ideals. We would of been much worse of with the Muslims in control of our political lives.
Between the content of his posts and the sentence structure (or lack thereof) Ginobilly uses, it's pretty clear he's severely lacking in formal education.
????Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginobilly
It's was the clash of two different civilizations (with two different religions) for exactly the same reasons (economic masked as religious). The Christians won and proceeded to fuck with them for centuries creating strong resentment, even hate, from them.
I agree, had they won the same would have happened just in reverse.
What would our lives be like now if they won? Nobody knows, because there is no way to predict what would have happened if an English Imam engineer invented the steam engine.
I think your severely lacking in having huevos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo
Spurs won. You should be glad the "good" guys won.
Americans don't understand much outside of the USA.
We make some simple things very hard.
Imagine, if you will, what would happen if the United Nations decided, somehow if they had the power to do so, that on account of the bad things happening to ethnically Mesoamerican Mexicans because of their ongoing drug war, that it was going to carve out San Diego and Imperial Counties from California, and call that land the Republic of Aztlan, and that those who consider themselves descended from the Aztecs could all repatriate there. Most of the existing Anglo population would be sent to refugee camps in Orange and Riverside Counties where they could work out how to begin their life anew. Surely their Anglo brethren would just absorb them.
It makes sense, right? It's their ancestral homeland! Southern California is already full of presumptive Aztecs anyway! The Anglos have their choice of 50 states to live in while the Aztecs will have just this little sliver of land! The United Nations said so!
I'm sure everyone would just shrug at this turn of events and go on with their lives.
Look, I'm not advocating for Christianity or anything religious mumbo-jumbo of whose religion is self righteous. All religion is BS! The point is Europeans(whether pagan/catholic/witchcraft) fuckin didn't want Islam or their ideals shoved down their fuckin throats, and much less pay fuckin taxes to camel jockeys. So what do they do?? Invade fuckin worthless piece of shit Israel(cause isn't Jerusalem their 2nd most important site) and highjack their stupid site where Mohamed flew to heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by DUNCANownsKOBE
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Ginobilly
And let the extremists run rampant?Quote:
Originally Posted by DUNCANownsKOBE
I say we nuke that part of the world and be done with those fucks.
Fighting those fucks in Iraq, Afghanistan and that part of the country has pretty much being the only wars since WW2.
"why americans don't understand the middle east"
if you could understand it, wouldn't you be fucking crazy as well?
As long as the extremists running rampant is contained to the middle east, yeah, let them run rampant. We have no right to dictate who's running rampant in sovereign countries on the other side of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowflames
I don't see why we need to nuke an area and commit genocide in order to be "done with those fucks," as you so eloquently put it.
If we did stay out, would they do us the same favor?
I'm all for a quarantine, that's to say we send all the arabs that are currently living in the US over to their country.
It's not about doing them a favor, it's about doing ourselves a favor by removing ourselves from the situation. Why do people act so deliberately obtuse about this topic and pretend anyone who wants us out of the middle east is sympathizing with the Muslims and trying to do them a favor?
americans really don't understand the occult power of religion in the mid east. while christians make remain cool when atheists make fun of God, the muslims won't when they think you've profaned allah and it's damn sure they'll retaliate, and it's all caused by a stupid movie
Terrible plan, tbh..... how on Earth would killing a ton of innocent people for the actions of a relative few extremists solve anything? We just need to get out and STOP meddling in the affairs of sovereign nations unless they directly threaten us, tbh.... the preemptive war bullshit is bankrupting us and creating more problems.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowflames
You guys are taking the nuke comment out of proportion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clipper Nation
I realize there are innocent people living there (as hard as that is to believe) but you gotta do what you must. You cant kill the innocent so the next best thing is to keep in eye on them.
Just a few nutcases you say? C'mon now. lol
They are threatening us everyday.
What if London was occupied by Israel?
Hard to imagine what is it like to live in Palestine under Israeli occupation? This short film will help you picture it.
So on one hand, you argue that we need to continue to "keep an eye on" the entire Middle East like we've been doing for decades, but then you argue that "they're threatening us everyday".... in that case, what good has spending decades "keeping an eye on them" done when they're still threatening us?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowflames
The solution is clear.... get the hell out, leave sovereign nations alone (and that means no more foreign aid as well), and start rebuilding our shattered reputation through diplomacy, honest friendship, and setting a good example, tbh.....
You answered your own question. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Clipper Nation
If we are keeping an eye on them now and they are still dropping planes on us that's a problem. If we leave and let them go uncheck what would happen then?
And just to point out what would of happened if the US didn't intervene in the Kuwait invasion by Sadam forces and company?
What do you think would have happend if Saddam would have taken Kuwait?
You can say all you want about the US intervening with other countries affairs but in this instance it was well justified, dont you think?
Just let them do their thing and stay the fuck out of their business. And here's a silly approach: why not try to be friends with them instead of making them into enemies?
We wouldn't be wasting millions (in dollars and lives) on undeclared, endless preemptive wars, not to mention, no more domestic surveillance and further trampling on our liberties at home....Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowflames
We should live them alone, but not before deporting them from our countries.
without american intervention, those dumbshits will continue to fight among each other anyway...doesnt make a difference...
look at the arab spring for example, remove previous regimes with new shit continuing the old linage of rule as the previous...fkn same shit, diff smell
We tried something along those lines with the Japanese (just with internment camps instead of kicking them out entirely), and it was so embarrassing that the government eventually had to apologize to the Japanese community, tbh....Quote:
Originally Posted by russellgoat
Who's threatening you? You think some fucking Lebanese goat herder is out to get you? The biggest terrorist strike - 9/11 - killed all of 3,000 people. How many INNOCENT people do you think have died from US cruise missiles and bombs over the past 20 years in the middle east? Its not even close to 3,000 but only because its far higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowflames
Further more, the US is so fucking irrationally afraid of people over there. 3,000 deaths from 9/11 is nothing compared to the deaths from shit like heart disease and diabetes. If people here were actually logical they'd be waging a fucking war on Sodas not people across the world.
40 messages and nobody even mentioned US/UK are/will be in the M/E for decades FOR OIL, with Israeli security distant 2nd.
Maybe not everyone believes like you...
WC denies that US/UK overwhelmingly priorit in the M/E is oil? :lol
WC believes US/UK fuck up the M/E to spread the glories of democracy! :lol
What do you BELIEVE, oh great faith-based/fact-free one?
Boutons_douche with yet another false dilemma, per par.... it's both oil, and being totally whipped by Israel, tbh....Quote:
Originally Posted by boutons_deux
Well Shadowflames got thoroughly jizzed on in this thread and had nothing to fall back on but neo-conservative Islamaphobic rhetoric.
So the last completely justified US intervention was 20 years ago :lmao. Who said anything about the Persian Gulf War, this is a hilarious strawman you're using to steer attention away from what you were saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowflames
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...e-West-007.jpg
"Hey everyone Ima let you finish, but da Persian Gulf War was one of da best wars of all time!!!"
Even that wasn't completely justified, simply because it wasn't constitutionally declared, tbh.... in fact, WWII was the last constitutionally declared war, from then on we've had war by executive/UN decree, and it's been a complete disaster....Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward
I'm saying it was justified just for the sake of argument. He was getting killed in an argument about the current middle east so he randomly responded to some mythical strawman about the Persian Gulf War.
And the only time muslim extremists have ever attacked us on our own soil, they came from a batshit crazy Muslim country our government seems to adore.
DarrinS' knowledge of the middle east and its peoples > Stephen WaltQuote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
:rollin
Care out outline a plausible counter to the argument "people don't like it when you support the dictators that are oppressing them"?
This oughta be good.
+1, except for the part about foreign aid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clipper Nation
We nee more foreign aid, not less. I would quintuple the USAID budget.
No sovereign nation "dropped planes on us".Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowflames
It was a bunch of religious nutters.
1991 attack on Iraq was a whole different ball game than 2003. THe camps that produced the hijackers were not in Iraq.
you'll are naive if you think that by just pulling out of the middle east they'll leave us alone. If those hijackers and that colorado gunmen proved to us how vulnerable our society is to attacks; they will keep on coming back. It's like the wolf who caught a sheep but the rancher didn't do anything about it cause the wolf is protected. He will keep on coming back for more and more until their ain't anymore sheep left. I could envision a terrorist attack on the river walk or any other people attraction anywhere in the US. I wish I could just smoke my weed, drink my beer, and watch my spurs games in peace, but we can't. I don't want our country to get to the point where we are going to have put the liberals, women and children, and gays to bed while we fight these guys to the death. If they would accept Jesus in their hearts, then maybe their countries wouldn't be the way they are. Anything other than Jesus leads to destruction. I'm not even religious but I see how the reality of live(evolution, string theory,etc) has favored the west. And you can't deny that!
the problem isnt the west, its them
when u listen to a religious wanker instead of ur parents on how to live ur life, cant figure out the difference between right or wrong, u deserved to be brainwashed to be use as a stupid tool for propaganda agenda...
i wish hussien and ghadaffi was still alive, instead of thankin the ppl that help u liberate the country, they dont remember the hand that help them but continue to act as if they are the one weeving the hand is when u have problems.....
Yeah you just can't live in peace with all those terrorist attacks you've had to endure. Must be a rough life for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginobilly
How many of you been out of the US???
You do realize you can't practice Christianity or Atheism in peace once you step out of the U.S. I'm Atheist btw but I do go to catholic church like 3 or 4 times a year for wedding, baptisms and quincianeras. I go because it's part of my culture and too see my friends and family. The modern catholic church talks about human rights, greek philosophy, politics, world issues, physics, science, humanistic ideals, etc. I don't know what protestant churches talk about but they have been more racists than catholics. My gay cousin and his boyfriend go to San Fernando cathedral to mass and nobody discriminates against them, even though they look gay. I see a bunch of muslim tourist going into the Alamo and go visit the cathedral, and nobody kicks them out. could we they the same in Islamic countries?? Will they let us visit that black rock they worship in Saudi Arabia?? We have opened our hearts to them. They have seen us naked and know all our intimate secrets. Yet they still bite the hand that feeds them.
"We have opened our hearts to them. They have seen us naked and know all our intimate secrets. Yet they still bite the hand that feeds them."
:lol
you have no idea manny. My family has had to endure a lot!!! Civil war, cartel violence(that's why a lot of family has had to move back to Texas from Tamualipas, Nuevo Leon, Coahuilla this is recently) We come from a Jewish catholic background from Spain. So don't tell me I don't know discrimination, poverty or violence cause I know a lot about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Therefore my family has had to fight for the freedoms that I have today. My ancestors have given their lives to make what the US is today. We have fought Moors, Native-Americans, Spanish, Mexicans, Anglos, French, Creoles, Nazis, Japanese and Koreans just so that we could stay alive and practice our freedoms and existence in peace. Every person on earth deserves freedom. What would you do without freedom?? Those people in the middle east are lost. Those young men are angry at the world because they have no hope for the future. I wish that their countries weren't like that. But they need to do their part in fighting for those freedoms that they envy. A lot people in the US would like to help in giving them those freedoms, but we painted as the bad guys in their corrupt state medias.
You too dumb for words.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginobilly
If atheism was the only criteria you would find many countries that are more tolerant of it than the US (where, let's face it, the word atheist is openly used as an insult quite often).
Accidentally, not only do I lives outside the US, but I've been to the ME a lot (Arab countries and Israel) and never needed to hide the fact that I don't trust or like (and even less belong) to any organized religion. Funny enough I've had debates about atheism with Arab Muslims and Israeli Jews. They disagreed with me as much as I disagreed with them, but no insults were exchanged (unlike in this forum), voices were not raised and we still parted on friendly terms - actually those were some of the best religious debates I've ever been part of.
OTOH travel guides like Lonely Planet warn foreign travelers to avoid talking about politics and religion while in the US since you could get into trouble...
And just so you know being an atheist is much worse than being a Christian in the eyes of the Muslims - yet here I am, still typing away at my keyboard (with all my ten fingers I might add).
How much aid, technology, and food have we given them?? They use it against us.Quote:
Originally Posted by boutons_deux
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Ginobilly
You do realize we are selling them technology (not giving it away)? At premium prices I might add. If they can't afford it they don't get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginobilly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo
so your saying i could go to mass in Saudi Arabia(or any other ME country) without any fear, then try to hit on Islamic women at their local hooters and nothing will happen to me just for being a normal human being going about his life in peace?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo
and why can't they afford it?? cause they have no jobs. And when you have no jobs, it drives men crazy. People need some meaning in their lives in order to function properly. That's why some people need religion in order to find that meaning and mission in their lives. The problem is their government blames all of their problems on the US instead of blaming themselves for the way they are.
Foreign aid is nice in theory, but never works....Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
Firstly, the money never goes to the people who actually need it, it ends up funding corrupt, oppressive governments and the mega rich instead.... to quote Ron Paul: "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country and giving it to the rich people of a poor country"... indeed, a lot of our foreign aid money helps fund rigged elections in other countries through the National Endowment for "Democracy"...
Secondly, forced charity is really just theft, tbh.... I have a problem with the idea that people who work and already have to give too much of their income to our corrupt, bloated federal government should then have some of their tax dollars sent to "the rich people of a poor country"...
Thirdly, private charities can do a much better job than our federal government - they can actually reach the people in need of our help on a personal level, and be able to focus on a specific plan of action, without having to worry about a million other things like our government, tbh....
Holy mother of n!ggerdick, Ginobilly is one stupid motherfucker.
Rofl, so what have you personally endured exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginobilly
sup Ed?
Not much Axe
How's the fam?
:lmao
Partially correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clipper Nation
I've been involved in the rebuild in Bosnia and in Kosovo. A lot of aid money disappeared in Bosnia and achieved nothing. By the time Kosovo came around a lot of governmental aid agencies smartened up. The offered money but in the form of projects. They would commit a certain amount of money and ask the locals what they wanted for it and made them submit projects. The ones that were deemed helpful to the rebuild (not just individuals) were approved and a partner company was identified through a public tender, but always from outside the country. Then the bridge, road, sewage... was built.
That's a pretty good formula, but I will admit that you don't often see it.
Salman Rushdie: Satanic Verses 'would not be published today'
The 65-year-old writer lived in hiding for many years after Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa calling for his execution.
Sir Salman said writers were still being attacked for their works in the same way, in Muslim countries including Turkey, Egypt, Algeria and Iran.
Sir Salman said writers and publishers needed to 'be braver'
"If you look at the way in which free expression is being attacked by religious extremism, the things of which these people are accused is always the same - it's blasphemy, heresy, insult, offence - it's this medieval vocabulary."
He pointed out that, as recently as last week, Channel 4 had cancelled a screening of its documentary, Islam: The Untold Story, following security threats.
"The fact a documentary about Islam can be pulled because someone is worried about the consequences is an indication of that," he said.
-- more -->
I have had family members killed just because they got in the way of cartel violence. My family in Mexico are not high class people but middle class hard working people who are nurses, teachers and masons who shouldn't be going through this kind of life. They don't influence the potential threat of violence they face every day. All the violence is due to Mexico and US drug policy laws that their elites class make to keep the violence and money going round and round. Look what prohibition did to the US in the 20's and 30's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward
They just need to visit the local convenience store.Quote:
Originally Posted by rascal
http://www.painetworks.com/photos/eo/eo0937.JPG
yep, the War on Drugs, like all Wars, is BIG BUSINESS, including for "legit" banksters laundering the $10Bs for the cartels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginobilly
your the one who is a dumb faggot who fails to see the truth in reality dawg. You think that way cause everything has been handed to you. Good parenting, education, food, love and care. Let me guess...you still live with your parents right? You know nothing of the real world or what it's like to suffer when your hungry and facing violence. I know exactly how those poor people in the middle east feel. They have no jobs or good education to get them outta that rut their in. The leaders in those countries want to keep them that way because their afraid that if Christianity and Western values get a hold of their people, their islamic governments will become irrelevant. Their leaders will lose power/money and their place atop the social classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward
I always find it interesting that the Christian and Jewish God is the exact same God as Allah. Just three different divergent schools of thought after that.