wh, with the voice of reason goods, per par, etc.
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wh, with the voice of reason goods, per par, etc.
http://readingchomsky.blogspot.com/2...democracy.htmlQuote:
But it is also the case that people in the Islamic world feel that they, for the most part, live in polities and states, in countries, ruled by unpopular regimes all of whom without any exception that I can think of in one way or another—of course, Iraq is an exception—but are supported by the United States.
I mean one mustn’t forget, in the first place, that the Mujahedeen, who preceded the Taliban, sort of the previous incarnation of the Taliban, were supported by the United States as fighters on the side of Islam against the godless communists in the Soviet Union in 1980s. And when their leaders came to Washington—I’ll never forget this as long as I live—and these beared people, to my mind, being a secular person from a part of the world that produces monotheistic religions, Islam, Christianity and Judaism, I was horrified that Reagan greeted these people as, in fact, the moral equivalent of the founding fathers, our founding fathers.
You know, it suited the United States to coddle these people, as it has all these years, the government of Saudi Arabia because of its oil, not because of its enlightened policies. And in many people in these countries, there is a healthy secular opposition. There’s women’s movement, there’s human rights movement. So, in all respects, I think one can find not only the elements but the wide currents of modernity inside contemporary Islamic societies.
The question is that they are engaged in a political struggle with people who want to take Islam back to some earlier state. Just as in this country, we have people who want to return—well, we have [Jerry] Falwell and [Pat] Robertson and all the hundreds of thousands, millions even, of fundamentalist Christians in this country who want to return us to a puritanical and simpler society.
So that’s the war. It’s not between Islam and the West. It’s between ideas of the past that exist in the West and ideas of the past and of the correct tradition that exists in the Islamic world and indeed everywhere.
Jewish world, look at the struggle within Israel between different interpretations of Judaism. So, I would say it’s really the struggle of interpretations and not the struggle between modernity of the West and the success of America, which most people in the Arab world that I know find very attractive and somewhat at odds with America’s behavior internationally, as a major, as the only superpower on one hand. And people want to, who want to return society to its earlier, pure, less sinful state, I mean that exists everywhere.
Said doesn't say this outright, but seems to suggest that there is rank paternalism, if not outright colonialism, in suggesting that the US is necessary to bring about democracy in the region. As if the struggles of internal humans rights groups, and eventually, ME states themselves were incapable of becoming adequately 'civilized' (read democratic)
also, the OP (and RG) leave unstated the degree to which US policy in the region is (partly, right?) responsible for for keeping corrupt, nasty, unpopular authoritarians in power, as well as for fomenting Islamic fundamentalism -- you guessed it -- using Kissingerian realpolitik as the rationale.
"plus ca change, plus ca meme chose"
What those people need is a good information campaign, ala radio free Europe to fight against the bullshit they are being fed. But those people are pretty damned brainwashed at this point.
that's a weak variant of the cultural imperialism RG just got behind, D. even if our bullshit and lies tend to trump theirs, the result is likely to be even more bloodshed and far less political stability.
as it is, our efforts to improve the lot of Muslim countries are likelier to be met with distrust and skepticism given the recent trajectory of US policy.
I am more than a bit appalled these days by the number of people who have swallowed the hyper-individualistic propaganda of the right with little regard for the value of human beings, truth, or morals. All are sacrificed on the alter of rank elitism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
The rights utter distain and rank condescension oh-so-frankly spelled out by Romney's recent recorded/released remarks pretty much should remove any doubt in anybody's mind what the people controlling the Republican party think about anybody who hasn't lucked into wealth and priviledge.
It is just as bad as the other extreme, leftish propaganda that eschews individual worth, achievement, and responsibility. Worse, because so many people swim in the turd-ridden sewer of the right wing propaganda machine, thinking they smell like roses.
Turkey should be pushed, and supported towards the rule of law, protection of human rights, and basic Democracy, by the tools we might have to do so, just as we have always done around the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by vy65
It is the best in us, and we have some moral duty to further respect for human beings.
They will be a "regional" power, as they have been for thousands of years, quite literally. It is neither good nor bad, but it just is.
By all means flesh out your own solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by vy65
While you are at it, please describe why democracy is the problem.
You have insisted that these comments are worth responding to, the onus is on you to give something substantial enough to merit a cogent response.
Is that your opinion?Quote:
Originally Posted by vy65
If someone asks for your help, is it paternalistic to give it to them?
I don't think we are strictly necessary to the development of Democracy, but we can act to accelerate a trend in which the values that we can almost univerally agree on are accepted and overall human misery are reduced.
"why democracy is the problem"
Obviously, with democracy in USA now irredeemably replaced by kleptocratic plutocracy, the Muslim countries are decades away from the USA's mythical, apocryphal "democracy".
democracy? Not Iraq, not Afghanistan, not Iran, not Saudi Arabia, not Bahrain (crushed by SA with USA silent agreement), not Libya, not Syria.
:tuQuote:
Originally Posted by boutons_deux
Pretty much a given.
No, our republic's been replaced by oligarchic democracy, tbh....
No, it isn't a given.Quote:
Originally Posted by coyotes_geek
I would contend just the opposite.
Unless you can provide some rationale?
Is it possible that there is a line between cultural imperialism and basic morality?Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
You seem to be implying there isn't one.
That little thing about being a nation of 'infidels' seems like it would be a pretty significant hurdle to get over...........Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
..........the whole Israel situation being another............
..........our history of meddling in their affairs for the better part of a century being another.........
There's also the problem of the middle east having a large segment of the society who is uneducated and poor, and the U.S. making the perfect scapegoat for ME governments looking to deflect their rage away from themselves.
I also think it's a safe bet to assume that when some suffering middle easterner gets some form of aid made possible by U.S. taxpayer dollars, the local government isn't telling them "don't thank us, thank the United States of America". So even when we're helping them, I doubt we're getting the credit.
Basically, I just think it's a pretty ridiculous concept to think that we can buy our way out of "Great Satan" status with some humanitarian aid.
AT BEST, you'd get a Pakistan situation with a nation of people that hate our guts and a government that will play along just enough to keep the money coming.
"between cultural imperialism and basic morality"
some French guy said: "nations don't have friends, they have interests".
groups, such as nations, Corporate-Americans, Catholic Church, no matter how religious, moral, or ethical the members may be, have one priority: to defend, protect, immortalize the group, at all costs, including hurting or killing their members and any out-groups.
Ask Bradley Manning, Assange, Wilson/Plame, boys/men raped by priests, etc.
US is in the M/E for its oil, not for spreading democracy.
US garrisons the planet to defend itself against puny threats many 1000s miles away (murderer Petraeus and his planetary SOCOM + CIA drone war) and to make it safe for its predatory corporations.
We disagree on whether that's possible. Thinking that Turkey can be pushed and supported into a bastion of human rights, democracy, and the rule of law is worse than having the fox guard the hen house for two reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
1. Unlike previous despotic states known for genocide, i.e. Germany, Turkey hasn't undergone a cultural change that recognizes its previous crimes and seeks atonement for them. Hence the continuum from Armenia to the Kurds.
2. The strong military presence/influence in government.
Let alone the overarching question to all of this which is: why *should* Turkey conform to *our* notions of democracy, human rights, rule of law, etc...
One man's moral duty is another's colonialism. Your elevation of the western point (the reference to human rights, democracy, rule of law - all of which are western notions) as the universal by which all other nations should be elevated to is in my mind a form of cultural and political colonialism.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
Seems teleological to me: it is because it is. But who knows, you might be right.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
Pull out of the ME. End all support for Israel. If they want democracy, they can do it on their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
Get smarter and read better. Democracy isn't the problem. The US promoting democracy in the middle east is the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
You're throwing a fit again. Get the sand out of your vagina.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
It is not *mine* but it is a position I agree with. Why's that relevant?Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
In the abstract, I don't know, maybe? I would need more details before answering.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
In this situation, the notion that ME nations *need* the US to instill democratic, humanitarian regimes that respect the rule of law (your words) because they can't do it on their own is paternalistic and prelude to colonialism.
Given our track record, I'd say that we have done a whole hell of a lot more to hamper the development of democracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
But more to the point - what are those universal values you speak of? Why are you in a position to legislate morally what is acceptable to others in different cultures, with different religions, different politics, etc...
idealism is cute
I stand corrected. I did indeed mis-read your statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by vy65
The rule of law is not a "western" notion. A basic reading of Chinese, Indian, and Middle Eastern history, would show that many of the things you are claiming are "western" values have been discovered by all these people.Quote:
Originally Posted by vy65
When I get some time, I will provide some support for this.
I would not share the assuption that things cannot change in Turkey, but again, have to wait for time to get there.
bis spater
The main problem as I see it - and its proudly on display within this thread - is that Americans constantly feel the need to somehow shepard the people in the middle east to mindset and lifestyle of American's choosing. Its always frustrating to see because while I do agree that there are basic human rights everyone should be entitled to, our society has numerous flaws in and of itself and we have yet to reach a point where everyone in our society is equal and treated well.
Its time to stop attempts to manipulate people around the world and its time to let people figure it out for themselves. America comes off as a selfish helicopter parent but whats worse is that we've yet to get our own shit together and we propose to dictate what is best for others around the world.
It may come as a shock to many people, but Americans did not invent democracy or the concept of equal rights and other people around the world are quite capable of figuring it out on their own if they're just allowed to do just that.
take your rationality and stick it up your ass!Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod