Poll: Is Manu Ginobili a top 3 Option on Offense for the 2012-2013 Spurs?

Looking at the matter objectively, I would have to say no imhotbh.

Let's break down the Spurs by FGA per game:

1. Tony Parker = 14.7
2. Tim Duncan = 13.9
3. Gary Neal = 9.7
4. Manu Ginobili = 9.4 :nope
5. Danny Green = 8.7
6. Kawhi Leonard = 7.9
7. Stephen Jackson = 7.0
8. Tiago Splitter = 5.7
9. Dejuan Blair = 5.6
10. Patrick Mills = 5.0
11. Boris Diaw = 3.8
12. Matt Bonner = 3.6
13. Nando De Colo = 3.1
14. Cory Joseph = 2.7
15. James Anderson = 2.0

":cry :cry :cryB-b-b-b-but that's not a fair comparison! As our resident TOSB, Manu's minutes have been severely slashed this season. FGA per game isn't a fair way to look at things :cry :cry :cry"

Never mind the fact that limited minutes is a concern in and of itself if you're going to try and argue that Manu is a top 3 option on this team, but good point nonetheless! Let's look at FGA per 36 minutes:

1. Tony Parker = 16.6
2. Tim Duncan = 16.5
3. Gary Neal = 14.4
4. Manu Ginobili = 14.2 :nope
5. Patrick Mills = 14.1
6. DeJuan Blair = 11.6
7. Cory Joseph = 11.0
8. Stephen Jackson = 10.9
9. Tiago Splitter = 10.8
10. Danny Green = 10.7
11. Kawhi Leonard = 9.8
12. Matt Bonner = 9.7
13. Nando De Colo = 9.1
14. James Anderson = 7.0
15. Boris Diaw = 5.7 <--- :lmao I knew Boris had too much of a "pass first" mentality (much to the chagrin of the Spurs F.O. and Spurs' fans alike), but god damn :rollin


":cry :cry But wait! Surely Manu must be contributing to our offense overall in a way that unmistakably makes him a top 3 option on our team. Why don't you look at points per 36 minutes or win shares per 48 minutes or PER or something like that :cry :cry"

Sure!

Points per 36 minutes:

1. Tim Duncan = 21.5
2. Tony Parker = 20.8
3. Tiago Splitter = 17.6
4. Manu Ginobili = 17.5 :nope

Total win shares:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Tony Parker
3. Tiago Splitter
4. Boris Diaw
5. Manu Ginobili :nope

Win Shares per 48 minutes:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Tiago Splitter
3. Tony Parker
4. James Anderson :lmao
5. Manu Ginobili :nope

PER:

1. Tim Duncan = 26.4
2. Tony Parker = 22.2
3. Tiago Splitter = 21.4
4. Manu Ginobili = 17.8 :nope


Based on the data quite honestly I have to say it looks like Manu is at best the 4th option on our team. What say you, Spurs talk?

Is Manu Ginobili a top 3 option on our team?

I've placed my vote. I chose "No, he's the 4th option." For the record, votes are not made public so don't feel embarrassed to vote!

He has the #3 usage rate on the team..

He's having a much better season than Neal, despite struggling by his personal standards..

He is clearly the #3 option on the team, it's a fact..if you're asking whether he has been the third best player on the team this year, it's arguable, but he's clearly the #3 go-to guy..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malik Hairston

He has the #3 usage rate on the team..

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You know this is true, but he's awwwwfully close to the likes of Gary Neal (USG% = 22.2, tied for rank 4) and Patrick Mills (USG% = 22.2, tied for rank 4) with a USG% of 24.2.

He will be a top 3 option in the playoffs. All that matters.

advanced stats exposing splitter as the 3rd best player
ginobili needs to be saved til the end of games to make drives and get to the line like the raptors game
rather see leonard/splitter get more integrated into the offense
neal can shoot as long as hes open

boris only really needs around 9 ppg and take advantages of mismatches in the post
he could get that on about 7 shots a game
if he could do that i would be happy

The differential between #4(Neal) and Ginobili is virtually the same as the usage differential between Ginobili and #1(Parker)..

Mills's usage is irrelevant, he barely gets on the court..

And by the way, if you want to go by usage rate on the team to argue options, would you also be willing to argue that Cory Joseph is a higher option on offense than Tiago Splitter? Because according to usage rate, he is :lol -

Spurs by usage rate:

1. Tony Parker = 26.4
2. Tim Duncan = 25.9
3. Manu Ginobili = 24.2
4. Gary Neal = 22.2
5. Patrick Mills = 22.2
6. Cory Joseph = 20.4
7. Tiago Splitter = 19.9
8. Dejuan Blair = 19.4
9. Stephen Jackson = 18.1
10. Nando de Colo = 17.5
11. Kawhi Leonard = 16.7
12. Danny Green = 15.6
13. Matt Bonner = 13.6
14. James Anderson = 13.2
15. Boris Diaw = 10.1

Is James Anderson higher on the "offensive options" hierarchy than Boris Diaw, tbh :lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malik Hairston

The differential between #4(Neal) and Ginobili is virtually the same as the usage differential between Ginobili and #1(Parker)..

Mills's usage is irrelevant, he barely gets on the court..

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Spurs ranked by minutes per game, tbh:

1. Tony Parker = 31.9
2. Tim Duncan = 30.3
3. Danny Green = 29.2
4. Kawhi Leonard = 28.9
5. Gary Neal = 24.3
6. Manu Ginobili = 23.9 :nope

You need to factor minutes played with usage rate, buddy..

Manu has been playing long enough to know the marathon of the season. He also knows his body the best and how far he can push it. Do you think he's playing @ his full capability right now?? If he can stay healthy, come playoff time he will be top 3 option. This is something we all know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malik Hairston

You need to factor minutes played with usage rate, buddy..

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Aww, I'm making buddies on the internet now :lol. I'll shoot you a friend request tbh :lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DesignatedT

He will be a top 3 option in the playoffs. All that matters.

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pretty much, plus he doesn't have to shoot a lot... just have to create offense... right now he's dipped a bit from the high PER he had in the last few seasons, but it's early anyways...

I voted 4th option before I read OP's post. It's been that kind if year so far for Manu, not gonna be surprised when he's the Argentinian Bball God later in the season.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JRHernandez88

Manu has been playing long enough to know the marathon of the season. He also knows his body the best and how far he can push it. Do you think he's playing @ his full capability right now?? If he can stay healthy, come playoff time he will be top 3 option. This is something we all know.

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so how did that work out for him last season in the playoffs

Yes, he's the 1st option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by freetiago

so how did that work out for him last season in the playoffs

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worked out pretty well. we were 2 games from the finals. you dont remember?

i guess working out well now means having his worst playoffs since his rookie season
he played better in the 2011 playoffs
and that was with 1 hand

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jARS mEsH sEt

Looking at the matter objectively, I would have to say no imhotbh.

Let's break down the Spurs by FGA per game:

1. Tony Parker = 14.7
2. Tim Duncan = 13.9
3. Gary Neal = 9.7
4. Manu Ginobili = 9.4 :nope
5. Danny Green = 8.7
6. Kawhi Leonard = 7.9
7. Stephen Jackson = 7.0
8. Tiago Splitter = 5.7
9. Dejuan Blair = 5.6
10. Patrick Mills = 5.0
11. Boris Diaw = 3.8
12. Matt Bonner = 3.6
13. Nando De Colo = 3.1
14. Cory Joseph = 2.7
15. James Anderson = 2.0

":cry :cry :cryB-b-b-b-but that's not a fair comparison! As our resident TOSB, Manu's minutes have been severely slashed this season. FGA per game isn't a fair way to look at things :cry :cry :cry"

Never mind the fact that limited minutes is a concern in and of itself if you're going to try and argue that Manu is a top 3 option on this team, but good point nonetheless! Let's look at FGA per 36 minutes:

1. Tony Parker = 16.6
2. Tim Duncan = 16.5
3. Gary Neal = 14.4
4. Manu Ginobili = 14.2 :nope
5. Patrick Mills = 14.1
6. DeJuan Blair = 11.6
7. Cory Joseph = 11.0
8. Stephen Jackson = 10.9
9. Tiago Splitter = 10.8


Points per 36 minutes:

1. Tim Duncan = 21.5
2. Tony Parker = 20.8
3. Tiago Splitter = 17.6
4. Manu Ginobili = 17.5 :nope

Total win shares:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Tony Parker
3. Tiago Splitter
4. Boris Diaw
5. Manu Ginobili :nope

Win Shares per 48 minutes:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Tiago Splitter
3. Tony Parker
4. James Anderson :lmao
5. Manu Ginobili :nope

PER:

1. Tim Duncan = 26.4
2. Tony Parker = 22.2
3. Tiago Splitter = 21.4
4. Manu Ginobili = 17.8 :nope

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Splitter number #9 in FGA per 36/#8 in FGA per game/#7 by usage rate/ #9 in minutes per game, AND STILL top 3 in PER/win shares/points per 36.

Splitter SHOULD get MORE minutes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by freetiago

i guess working out well now means having his worst playoffs since his rookie season
he played better in the 2011 playoffs
and that was with 1 hand

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Ok then, who would you suggest have the ball in their hands over Manu in the WCF?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malik Hairston

The differential between #4(Neal) and Ginobili is virtually the same as the usage differential between Ginobili and #1(Parker)..

Mills's usage is irrelevant, he barely gets on the court..

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Shows how great of a scorer Patty is off the bench.

I didnt say someone else should have the ball over manu
he just needs to play better and show he can actually string together some decent games

right now hes a trainwreck
throwing the ball into stands
bricking all his 3s, most of which are from bad shot selection
also not getting to the rim as much
passing has become predictable and he turns it over when he gets trapped

manu 1 or 2 season ago would still be splitting the traps and getting to the rim

until he shows he can do that leonard should get more plays called for him
his mid range game looks good and he could probably post up smaller players
splitter also had the offense run through him while he played for brazil so he could be a more consistent offensive option then just a pick and roll player

Quote:

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Originally Posted by freetiago

I didnt say someone else should have the ball over manu

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so then you agree he is a top 3 option on offense?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brunodf

Splitter number #9 in FGA per 36/#8 in FGA per game/#7 by usage rate/ #9 in minutes per game, AND STILL top 3 in PER/win shares/points per 36.

Splitter SHOULD get MORE minutes

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I've been saying this since he got here tbh. What happened with Splitter's minutes was infuriating to say the least...Especially after the Memphis series.

Now that Pop is going to him when the starters aren't doing well, is playing him with TD regardless of the matchups, and is also giving him a longer leash imo, I'm actually a pretty happy fan this year. The big rotation's been pretty decent with TD/Diaw/Splitter taking most of the minutes. Especially now that Bonner hasn't really been playing (although I still don't like Blair starting). But anyway, I'm still thinking Pop should bump him up to around 30 minutes/game. Give Splitter minutes every game regardless of how he does and he'll eventually perform.

He's going to be rather expensive in the offseason if he keeps this up though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boomersgold

Shows how great of a scorer Patty is off the bench.

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When Jax and Leonard get back, I actually think Blair and Patty should be the first ones losing minutes. And Bonner. Guys like De Colo, Splitter, and even Anderson have played well and I'm just not convinced that Patty deserves regular minutes over some of these other players when Neal's available to play that "instant offense" role. Plus we already have TP as well...

At the moment De Colo is providing a nice change of pace with the faster tempo he pushes and the pass-first style of play even if his shooting is the cause of that. I think this causes problems for opponents because it's like they have to game plan for two different Spurs teams. Compared to the other guards Patty doesn't really bring anything extra to the table. For that reason I think he needs to (continue to) be the odd man out when our SF rotation comes back.

Last time I checked he is still one of only 3 guys on the team that can create his own offense. So yes.

Let Tony carry us during the regular season where he excels. Then hand the reins over to Manu in the playoffs imo (since we already know Tony isnt good enough to lead us to a title).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheSkeptic

I've been saying this since he got here tbh. What happened with Splitter's minutes was infuriating to say the least...Especially after the Memphis series.

Now that Pop is going to him when the starters aren't doing well, is playing him with TD regardless of the matchups, and is also giving him a longer leash imo, I'm actually a pretty happy fan this year. The big rotation's been pretty decent with TD/Diaw/Splitter taking most of the minutes. Especially now that Bonner hasn't really been playing (although I still don't like Blair starting). But anyway, I'm still thinking Pop should bump him up to around 30 minutes/game. Give Splitter minutes every game regardless of how he does and he'll eventually perform.

He's going to be rather expensive in the offseason if he keeps this up though.



When Jax and Leonard get back, I actually think Blair and Patty should be the first ones losing minutes. And Bonner. Guys like De Colo, Splitter, and even Anderson have played well and I'm just not convinced that Patty deserves regular minutes over some of these other players when Neal's available to play that "instant offense" role. Plus we already have TP as well...

At the moment De Colo is providing a nice change of pace with the faster tempo he pushes and the pass-first style of play even if his shooting is the cause of that. I think this causes problems for opponents because it's like they have to game plan for two different Spurs teams. Compared to the other guards Patty doesn't really bring anything extra to the table. For that reason I think he needs to (continue to) be the odd man out when our SF rotation comes back.

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100% agree, Splitter average just 19 minutes, he should play more(25-30 at least) and maybe start.

Manu #1, because no matter whether he is scoring the ball or not, the ball should almost always touch his hands to make a play.

Although he has kind of handed the reigns to Parker, I still feel better with the ball in Manu's hands for the last possession than anyone else on the team. And BTW, the Manu that we have seen this past month is not the Manu (if healthly) we will get come playoff time. I already see him improving. He's a very intellectual player, he knows when to turn it on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by freetiago

ginobili needs to be saved til the end of games to make drives and get to the line like the raptors game

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Yeah, better save him for garbage time right now!

you do realize the raptors game went to double overtime right
there was no garbage time in that game
in the closing minutes they would put the ball in manus hand in the high pick and roll and he would get fouled going to the rim
ginobili can still probably do that at a high level but i dont want to see him do it every night since his body will probably turn to dusts on one of those hits he takes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Last time I checked he is still one of only 3 guys on the team that can create his own offense. So yes.

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While I still think he is the option #3, IMO Gary Neal is also able to create his own offense, but not to the extent of the Big Three ...

Right now he isn't but no doubt he will be in the playoff if not injured

Well, he still creates the most offense for the team and only Lebron is ahead of him so far in the league as a whole. Last season only Lebron and CP3 was ahead of him.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/teams/SAS.html (Spurs)

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/teams/SAS.html (league)

Gary Neal is a hero baller ball-hog. Not surprised by the stats.

As long as the Spurs can keep winning I don't care if he's the last option on offense. Honestly I hope he's not the 3rd option on offense anymore and that we have to rely on him less.

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