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No, this isn't knee jerk after what he did to OKC last night, I've been wondering about this for a while.
Is he a top 10 player in the league right now? Top 5 even?
Is he the best SG in the league right now?
When I see him, I think of a young D-Wade. They both have similar styles, as they are attack heavy, use their body well to finish or draw contact and get to the line. Wade is more athletic, while Harden is a better shooter, higher IQ, and better at running an offense.
Thoughts?
How can anyone see this guy and see anyone other than Manu? I don't know if I have ever seen two other players so alike.
Hes like manu, but actually capable of leading a team.
damn, seconds late
truth bombs, too bad the CoM are in denialQuote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Eto'o
but seriously this guy has Iversons handles, Ray Allens jumper, Jordans athleticism, and Ron Jeremys dick size. future goat tbh
MK reject's BB take, even worse than MK's BB takes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Eto'o
Damn good player, but top 5? Knee-jerk reaction tbh.
Lol bitter Mavs fans gonna hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Eto'o
Their games are completely identical tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by DAF86
I think Harden as top 5 can be argueable, but it's hard to say w/ players like Rose and Love injuried.Quote:
Originally Posted by BatManu20
Cementing his status as an elite player will require him making his mark as the leader of a successful playoff team. At the very least, he'll need to get Houston out of the first round of the playoffs for people (well at least me) to believe he's a legit franchise player. Right now, as far as the regular season goes, there's an argument for him to be a top 10 player in the league. But also realize even though Houston is a better team because of him, they are still sitting in the middle of the pack of the league as far as record goes. I think they're 13th or 14th in the league record wise. If he can translate his play in the playoffs as the undisputed leader of his own team, I think we can start talking about him as an elite player. Without that, even if he puts up great individual numbers, he'll be on course for a Tracy McGrady type of perception.
1-Lebron
2-Durant
3-CP3
Are the top three, from that point forward is anyone's place. I think I would still place Howard (yes, the guy Kobe is making look like a scrub) and Wade over him but it's close.
Dwight makes himself look like a scrub. He's still putting up pretty solid, if not good numbers. 16/12/2 on 58% shooting. It's because he's whining about touches and can't make free throws that he seemingly isn't playing well. He's only getting 3 fewer shot attempts a game than he's used to over the last couple seasons. And what did he expect joining a team with a volume scorer like Kobe? Heck, he's getting the same amount of shot attempts as 2009-10 when the Magic went to the ECF and Dwight finished 4th in MVP voting. He whined in Orlando too. The struggles Dwight has had this season are mostly on him and his attitude, not Kobe, not D'Antoni. If he would just shut up and play, work hard in practice, take his profession more seriously, and actually made his free throws, even if his scoring numbers still dipped, he wouldn't be such a "scrub" this season.Quote:
Originally Posted by DAF86
I think this is about as well put as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
He has incredible potential, but needs to prove his ability to lead a team.
I think he is probably a top 10 player right now. But time will tell.
16/12/2 is still shit compared to what drob was posting the year he return 98/97 98/99 2 seasons
No one said he is top 5. Knee-jerk reaction tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by BatManu20
lol manu > dirkQuote:
Originally Posted by DAF86
Don't you have some posts to delete?Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
lol post deleter
Yes, Dwight is a bitch, I think that's already established but what is also true is that Kobe is making him a worse player.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
Best SG. Top 10 player.
But how? I mean tangibly what is it that Kobe does to make Dwight a worse player? His scoring is down, but his FG% is where you'd expect. His rebounding slightly down, but does Kobe affect him rebounding the ball? Still blocking shots at the rate he's always blocked shots. Is Kobe to blame for Dwight not being able to hit even 50% of his free throws? Is it Kobe's fault Dwight doesn't like D'Antoni's system? Dwight maneuvered his way out of Orlando and when he got traded to the Lakers, he knew what he was getting when playing with Kobe. Is it Kobe's fault that Dwight is an emotional midget and can't take being challenged by a teammate? Was Kobe supposed to cower to and worship Dwight? Dwight came to Kobe's team, not vice versa. It'd be one thing if Kobe was completely finished and couldn't hold his own. But we've seen this season that Kobe's still capable of carrying the offensive load. Dwight has never been a great go-to guy offensively. Should Kobe hand over the offense to Dwight? Putting most of the blame on Kobe or even D'Antoni absolves the blame Dwight himself should take on for the trainwreck the Lakers have been. Dwight's not just a bitch. He's way more at fault than Kobe or D'Antoni in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by DAF86
The talent from #4-10 is weaker than it has been in a long time, tbh..
Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Duncan and Dirk are old..Rose is hurt, Howard hasn't looked like the same guy this year(many possible reasons)..guys like Westbrook and Parker are great, but I'm hesitant to put them on the highest level..the secondary talent is pretty weak at the moment IMO..
You could make the argument that Harden is as high as #4..however, as Jamstone said, he still needs to prove that he's a legit #1 guy in the playoffs..also, his +/- numbers are pretty weak for a superstar player, I'm interested in seeing if that changes by the end of the year..
He's unquestionably a top 10 player, though..Lebron, Durant and Paul are better..Rose is around the same..Howard is better when healthy..you can make the argument for Anthony, Kobe and Wade..arguments for Parker and Westbrook could be made, but the arguments would be weak, especially for the latter..
If his scoring is down but his FG% is where you'd expect what does that tell you? I'm not saying Dwight should be the number one option but I think him and Kobe should be more of a 1a, 1b type options, not Kobe having 10 full more pts of usage rate than Howard.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
Howard being a bitch plays a role, his injuries too but Kobe being a chucker also plays a role, that's all I'm saying.
imo he is the best SG in the NBA in terms of overall efficiency...Kobe may (arguably) be a better offensive player at 100% and Wade is definitely one of the better perimeter defenders at 100% but I see Harden has a having a more overall consistent impact on both sides of the court (not saying his impact on either side is necessarily better than the impact of Kobe/Wade on offense/defense, just that he is more in the middle of both) than either of them...that being said, when Kobe is on, he is the best offensive player in the NBA, and Wade is no slouch either, so when they're going all out, they're easily better (Wade especially on the defensive end). Problem is, we don't see sustained greatness from Kobe or Wade as much these days. That will probably change in the playoffs though.
As far as the 2013 regular season goes, he has been the best SG in the league. But I'd rather have Wade if I'm making a playoff run
It tells me Dwight should stop being a bitch about touches. Again, 2009-2010, he averaged the same exact amount of field goal attempts. Orlando made it to the ECF, Dwight finisheded 4th in MVP voting. But he didn't have a Kobe on his team to blame for his lack of touches. He's only down 3 shot attempts from the past two seasons. Joining a team like the Lakers with a player like Kobe, should he have expected his shot attempts to go up? He bitched in Orlando and with Van Gundy. Now, he's doing it again with Kobe and D'Antoni. It's more of an M.O. than a legitimate basketball strategic complaint.Quote:
Originally Posted by DAF86
And look what Kobe has done in recent weeks, not shooting as much, passing the ball more. Kobe actually has given in, even though based on how he started the season, he had every right to continue taking as many shots as he was. My guess is Dwight will still complain about something.
Dwight still misses free throws. He still lacks work ethic and professionalism. He still whines to the media. It's time for him to just shut up, work hard, and play. Kobe for all his faults--and he has many--is not to be blamed for whatever struggles Dwight has had this season. That's as much of a cop out as people have criticized Kobe for any number of things, probably more of a cop out.
you actually believe the rapists gave in by deferring alot? dude was only interested chasing beating jordans assists record.....Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
Another possible comparison for Harden could be Joe Johnson. Harden is putting up similar numbers to what Joe Johnson put up his second season in Atlanta. But Atlanta was a bad team the first few seasons Johnson was there. But there are similarities. Joe Johnson was/is a do-it-all SG who had size and strength on most SGs, could handle and facilitate like a PG, and was a legitimate three point threat. Joe Johnson went from underrated to overrated in his tenure with the Hawks. And aside from that one series against Boston in 2008 where he was clutch late in a couple games (plus the Hawks still lost the series), he didn't prove his worth as a legit franchise player in the playoffs. If Harden doesn't make waves in the playoffs in the next couple seasons, he could end up being similar to that.
Also, with respect to how he makes the Rockets better as a team, it's interesting to note that the past 3 seasons, the Rockets have finished the season over .500 and ended up being the 9th place team in the Western Conference, each of the past 3 seasons. Right now the Rockets are slotted as the 8th seed and are 4 games above .500. It's not like he's transformed the Rockets from a 20 win lottery team to a top 4 team in the West. They're still a slightly above average, low playoff seed team. So I think rushing to give him too much praise would be premature at this point. Let's see them finish strong, make the playoffs, and actually do something in the playoffs with Harden performing at a high level first.
JamStone
you actually comparing harden to that scrub joe johnson? cmon man...
Shot attempts don't tell the whole story, usage rate is more indicative of how much a guy is involved on offense. In 2009/2010 he had a USG of 21.5 compared to 19.8 this year. Chris Bosh playing alongside Lebron and Wade has a higher USG, that's just not right.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
I have already conceded that he should just shut up but are you saying that if he did that he would have better numbers and the Lakers would win more games? Instead of averaging 58% from the field he would average 65%? Instead of getting 12 rbds and 2.3 blks per game he would get 15 and 4? I don't get it. The truth is that it's highly unlikely for that to be the case. Maybe he would improve a little but not that much to make a difference about the way people think about him right now, the easiest/surest way to change that and maybe the Lakers' entire season is for him to get more involved on offense.
2006-07 Joe Johnson: 25.0 PPG, 4.2 RPG, 4.4 APG, .471 FG, .381 3P
Back then and the following few seasons, people started making threads on here asking how Joe Johnson compared to guys like Ginobili and Wade and at the time Brandon Roy. He was thought of as a top 5 SG by some. And after that Boston series in 2008, he was also viewed as a clutch playoff performer. Harden actually does have a similar game to Joe Johnson talent wise.
Now what I said is that depending on whether Harden can perform at a high level in the playoffs or whether he fades in the years to come, he may be comparable to what Joe Johnson is or has been. Time will tell.
Are you comparing iso Joe to a pick and roll master like Harden?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
Harden >> Johnson
Pick and roll >>>>>> isos
That makes Harden >>>>>>>> Johnson
We all agree that Harden>>Ginobili(prime, not current?).
I'm not saying if he shut up he'd put up better numbers. I'm saying he shouldn't worry about the amount of touches he gets or his individual stats. He should worry about winning. But getting Howard more involved in the offense doesn't guarantee more wins at all, it only guarantees he'll put up more shots. The Lakers struggles have a lot more to do with their defense than their offense. The Lakers are 8th in the league in offensive rating, 18th in the league in defensive rating. Getting Howard more involved on offense doesn't help their defense... except if that's the only way to get Howard more engaged defensively, which again is more of an indictment to Dwight's infantile attitude and lack of professionalism.Quote:
Originally Posted by DAF86
Earlier in the season when the Lakers were losing, Kobe was extremely efficient offensively. It wasn't about Kobe chucking his way into losses. He was actually one of the few bright spots offensively for the Lakers. But also in those earlier stretch of games the Lakers lost in November and December, there were more than a handful of close losses where Dwight Howard missed more than enough free throws that could have been the difference between winning and losing.
I get it. The Kobe hate especially in this forum won't allow any other notion other than it's Kobe's fault. He'll get blamed no matter what. I choose to be the voice of dissent sometimes just to bring some balance to the ST universe. And in this case, I actually firmly believe what I'm saying. Dwight shouldn't blame his struggles on Kobe, and again not on D'Antoni either. He shouldn't worry about his touches or shot attempts. He should just go out and play and play hard and work on improving his game without having any pouting sessions or animosity to teammates. A change in attitude whether his individual numbers improve or not would make a difference in my opinion.
Caron Butler shitting on Green
I'm comparing their talent and their production (Johnson's 2006-07 season to Harden's current season), not their style of play. They both have similar talent for the SG position, big and strong for the position, above average handles and playmaking skills for the position, both good outside shooters. And at one point, Joe Johnson was putting up similar production as James Harden is this season. And again, what I said is that Harden's career the next few seasons absent some great post season play and playoff success could go the way of Joe Johnson's career after that 2006-07 season.Quote:
Originally Posted by DAF86
I don't have the numbers but I heard recently that the Lakers are above average on defense when Dwight is on the court and beyond awful when he's not, maybe the defensive issues aren't Dwight's fault, tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
I'm not saying that Dwight's struggless are because of Kobe (besides that troll comment at the beggining), I'm saying that Kobe's chucking ways play a role. You don't even agree with that?
if harden leads the rockets to +50 win and playoff appearance, win or lose first round, will be anything better JJ has ever done with the hawks...
did JJ lead his hawks to 50wins in a pathetic eastern conference?
I don't know if I agree with that or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by DAF86
I think Kobe is who he is. He's always been a chucker. Even when they were winning championships, he was a chucker. Is Kobe's chucking one of the main reasons the Lakers have struggled this season? I don't believe so. Is his chucking a reason why Dwight Howard specifically has struggled? I can't say for sure. If he's getting the same amount of touches as he did in Orlando three years ago and only 3 fewer shot attempts than the past two seasons, why is he perceived to be struggling so much this season? I'm sure you can point to several games this season where Kobe shot too much and hurt the Lakers, but I don't think it's as many as you might think. But I don't know for sure. I'd have to go through Kobe's gamelogs. But earlier in the season, as I pointed out earlier, like the first month or so of the season, I found a handful (like maybe 5-6) of close losses that could have been wins if Dwight Howard made more of his free throws.
Statistically, I don't think Dwight Howard is struggling that much. He's just not getting as many touches and shots. And because he's pouted about it and because the Lakers as a team have struggled, it's a point of contention. Dwight thinks he's struggling because he wants to be the man.
But the whole perception of the Lakers and the butting heads between Dwight and Kobe would completely change if two things happened: 1) Dwight would just shut up and play, and 2) the Lakers started to consistently win. To be honest, if the Lakers were say 33-22 and everything else on the season was exactly the same, Dwight's touches and shot attempts, Kobe's chucking, the poor defense, all the injuries, then there wouldn't be any huge problems. Losing frustrates players. If the Lakers were winning and solidly in the playoffs, I don't think we'd be hearing about any of these problems.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by TDMVPDPOY
You could have easily looked that up yourself.
lol making shit up to make yourself feel better about being a faggotQuote:
Originally Posted by DAF86
Isnt there a stat out there that shows the Lakers are terrible when Kobe shoots x-amount of shots? How does that not prove that chucking is detrimental to a team ?
Making shit up, yeah right :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by stretch
So, besides being a post deleter stretch is now a lying faggot. Good to know, tbh. :tu
Don't forget that coming into the season the Rockets got rid of two productive point guards in Dragic and Lowry, their starting power forward, Scola, and their top reserve small forward in the Chase Budinger trade to Minnesota. The Rockets were looking to tank before they nabbed Harden.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
Second best sg behind kobe right now
joe johnson is a scrub who hides in big games h2h against the leagues top SGS....cmon man his stats are misleading
Joe Johnson? Really Jamstone? You have made some good posts but that is just flat out retarded. Johnson was one of the biggest chuckers and stat padders if there was one. I don't think anyone could call Harden that right now, they are completely different players, the Manu comparisons are probably 100 x more accurate than the JJ comparisons. Harden attacks relentlessly, guys like JJ have never done that. Young Dwade is a good comparison too. I like to wait for the rest of the season and more time before making claims. But people don't seem to realize how crappy and scrappy the rockets are, there is a reason they were projected to win 33 games this season.
Did they get the 9th spot the last couple of years? Yea they did, but they also had a better supporting cast than right now. They had Scola/Lowry/Brooks/Drajic and other players they completely lost now.
He aint top 5. Come on. LeBron, Parker, Melo, CP3, Durant. TOP 10- yeah
lol parker top 5Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
he's probably a top 5 SG in the league now, and a top 30 overall but im not yet ready to put him in the same line with the likes of bron, dirk, kobe etc... nigga still has a lot to prove and it's only the first season for him to play as the teams #1, he might be another evanascent one-season superstar like 05-06 mike james imho
You act like I'm comparing Harden to Ricky Davis or JR Rider. It's not an insult to compare him to Joe Johnson, a 6 time all star, a guy that averaged 20+ PPG for 5 straight seasons, a guy who has some physical and talent similarities for the position. All things I mentioned before. I didn't say their games are identical. I didn't say their styles of play were the same. I'm comparing two SGs who have some talent and physical similarities and also some production similarities.Quote:
Originally Posted by sook
And I'll explain the comparison further. Another reason I made the comparison is because they had comparable situations. Both Harden and Johnson were complementary players for really good teams and then because of team financial reasons and the desire to get paid and be "the man," they were both traded to different teams where they became the lead dog. Joe Johnson from Phoenix to Atlanta and Harden from OKC to Houston. So it wasn't just the two of them being SGs and having similar talent. But the situations are comparable. And if you looked at the posts where I've talked about the comparison, my point has been that if Harden doesn't have some measure of success in the playoffs, both individually and as a team, then his career path could go the way of Joe Johnson's career the last few years since 2006-07. It goes back to one of my first posts in this thread about Harden needing that post season performance to cement his status as an elite player.
The Joe Johnson comparison wasn't even intended as an insult. And it wasn't meant to suggest they are exactly the same type of player with the same exact style of play. But if you can't see there are similarities in not only their talent but also their career situations as they became franchise type players for different teams, I don't know what to tell you. Some people think any player comparison to "their guy" that isn't with a Hall of Famer or a multiple NBA champion is an insult. Stop being so sensitive. The Joe Johnson comparison actually makes sense.
Manu's olympic gold medal he got after kicking the shit out of Team USA's superteam with his group of ragtag scrubs says hello.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Eto'o
How many teams have beaten Team USA since NBA players were allowed to play for them again? Oh yeah, just one. Ginobili's.
I think we remember history differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
That USA "superteam" was comprised of Duncan and Iverson, a bunch of second tier players like Odom and Marion and Richard Jefferson, and then LeBron, Wade, and Carmelo who Larry Brown hardly played. Talent wise, especially because Larry Brown wouldn't play the young kids much, they were among the weaker teams USA fielded in international competition since using NBA players. And that ragtag group of scrubs on Team Argentina had 7 guys other than Ginobili who played in the NBA. Maybe you were trying to spin things a little bit? Just a little?
Also, as far as how many teams have beaten Team USA since NBA players were allowed to play... ummmmm Yugoslavia, Spain, Puerto Rico, Lithuania too. Just saying. It's not just one.
I was talking about for the gold medal, not just one game.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
Yeah Team Argentina had NBA players, so doesn't every national team. And it's usually guys who get 2-8 minutes a game. Meanwhile team USA is usually loaded with stars. Marion, LeBron, Wade, Melo, Duncan, Iverson, etc, aren't "second tier players" either. They were each better than the 2nd best player on Team Argentina. You can only spin it so much before it just seems retarded. You're seriously trying to say those guys were comparable to Melo, Wade, etc? :lol
Let's look at that list of amazing NBA players Team Argentina had and we can compare and contrast.
Manu Ginobili
Carlos Delfino
Gabriel Fernendez
Leonardo Gutierrez
Walter Herrmann
Alejandro Montecchia
Andres Nocioni
Fabrico Oberto
Luis Scola
Hugo Sconochini
Ruben Wolkowhyski
Yeah, they were just LOADED with talent, huh? Two NBA players of note, Ginobili and a young Luis Scola who wasn't in the NBA year (4 years off). The other "great NBA players", were scrubs like Nocioni, Oberto, and Delfino.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latarian Milton
Mike James???...nigga put the crack pipe down.
To be honest it is a fair comparison, Harden has a lot to prove before he can be called a full fledged superstar and playoff performance is gonna be key to that. Even with that said I still think his style, craftiness, ability to get to the free throw line at will, and shoot from anywhere on the court makes him more like Ginobili but time will tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
lol at the butthurt hereQuote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
Why didn't you say "gold medal" then? Read what you wrote and you can see why I responded to it. No mention of gold medal game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
I didn't say Team USA didn't have better talent than Argentina. But you called Ginobili's teammates a ragtag group of scrubs. Hardly scrubs. And Nocioni, Delfino, and Oberto weren't/aren't 2-8 minute per game guys in the NBA. While other international teams have NBA players, how many have 8 on the same international squad? How many have more than a couple that actually are legitimate rotation guys on NBA rosters? Over the past decade or so, only Yugoslavia and Spain. So yeah, I challenge the notion that Argentina was a ragtag group of scrubs. Were they as talented as Team USA? I wouldn't say so. But the talent difference wasn't huge, especially when you consider that most of the Argentine players had played together on the international squad for a long time, had built better team chemistry, and were much more familiar with each other's games. And no, they aren't better than guys like LeBron and Melo and Wade, but LeBron and Melo and Wade weren't playing much. In that gold medal match, LeBron, Wade, Melo played a combined 22 minutes. Odom, Marion, Jefferson played a combined 73 minutes. LeBron, the best player on the planet, played 3 minutes in the gold medal match. Melo didn't play.
I called players like Marion, Odom, and Richard Jefferson second tier players, not Duncan, Iverson, LeBron, Wade, Melo. Please don't twist my words. At the time or for that matter any time in their careers, do you consider those guys top players in the NBA? Elite players? Franchise type players? Marion, Odom, and Jefferson were getting more minutes than LeBron, Melo, and Wade. As I said, Larry Brown wasn't even really playing them much, while guys like Marion and Odom and Jefferson were getting plenty of minutes.
If you take LeBron, Melo, and Wade out of conversation, you start comparing guys like Nocioni and Oberto to guys like Odom and Marion, and sorry, that's not a huge talent difference on the international stage, particularly because Argentina played more like a team of guys who have played with each other for a much longer time.
But it's fine. Whatever you want to believe is fine. I really only take exception to the comment that Ginobili's teammates were scrubs, because in reality they weren't. Not as talented as Team USA, but certainly not scrubs.
yes something like lakers are .27 when Kobe is shooting at least 20 timesQuote:
Originally Posted by FkLA
LOL this forum ... this thread ...
Believe me , it wasn't taken as an insult, just a bad comparison. I am not a die hard Harden fan, he is a good player that plays for the rockets and that is all. You mentioned all of JJ's AS appearances, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he has been a stat padder and chucker. JJ doesn't seem to care much about winning if his track record says anything. Situations being alike are a poor measure of comparing players. If you want to talk situations and even efficiency, he is right on par with tracy mcgrady:Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
In the first four years of their NBA careers, James Harden and Tracy McGrady have almost identical growth curve in efficiency rating, especially in the field of EFF.
http://i47.tinypic.com/2cdzygk.png
Are you on crack? I'm just asking, because it's interesting to note that all the players who started and finished in the 9th spot the last 3 seasons don't start here. Newsflash buddy, this Rockets team was already "transformed" well before the Harden trade even took place and the fact that they aren't on pace to be a 20 win lotterty team speaks more about the job Morey has done and the ability of Harden to carry this team. When you have the youngest team in the entire league, you shouldn't be in a playoff hunt, usually you're in the race for the worst record in the league.. the reason why they aren't seeking the worst record in the league is because of the stellar play of James Harden.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
P.S.
WhyTF are you comparing this Rockets team to a team that finished outside of the playoffs when literally ever starter/role player has been replaced? How many times have the youngest team in the league made the playoffs? Harden isn't Joe Johnson and he's doing things Joe Johnson never did. He's a legit top ten player and arguably the top SG in the league,
I'm not going to to troubleshoot all of my points so you can't say "well you didn't say it wasn't this, or that, or this". I was referring to them being the only team to beat out Team USA to win the gold medal since NBA players were allowed to play in the games. Obviously Team USA has lost games before, but only one team has golded over them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
Anyway, compared to Team USA, yes Ginobili did have a ragtag group of scrubs. You cite their "7 NBA players" as if they're on the same level as Wade, Melo, Duncan, Iverson, Marion, etc. Even Richard Jefferson back then was better than every player Team Argentina had except Manu and Scola. Also, many of those guys were eventually NBA players, not NBA players at the time.
Marion was also a very good player at the time. . .don't confuse what he is now for what he was. He was averaging 20/10 back then with borderline elite defensive ability. Odom was averaging 17/10/4 in the NBA, though not an elite defender. And Jefferson, while Spurfans love to shit on him, was actually playing at his peak back then. The year after the olympics, he averaged 22/7/4, and went to the Finals twice as the 2nd-3rd best player on his team leading into that olympic games. We're not talking about scrubs. Stephen Marburry and Amar'e Stoudemire weren't scrubs either btw.
Meanwhile, look at the guys like Andres Nocioni, Carlos Delfino, and Fabrico Oberto whom you're talking up as great NBA stars. Those three (and Scola) combined for exactly 0 seconds of play in the NBA before that game. Delfino went on to being a bench scrub for 3 years after that before becoming a mediocre starter for a bad team, still not putting up good numbers. Noc ended up playing for a dead end team. Spurfans know about Oberto and won't defend him being referred to as a scrub.
I literally don't even know who the other 2 of the "7" NBA players you're referring to were, because I've never heard of the rest of them outside of being on that team. Manu was the only guy with NBA experience back then, and it was just 2 years of it.
"If you take LeBron, Melo and Wade out of the conversation". . .really? So now you've taken out 5 players from the conversation in total. Duncan, Iverson, LeBron, Melo and Wade, and are just talking about the "worst" players on the team vs the best from Argentina (with revisionist history too, by calling them NBA players before they even played there). How many players should we remove from the argument, and facts should we ignore exactly? I think I'm just going to stick to the facts, not remove or ignore them.
Right, they're not nearly as talented as Team USA. If it bothers you so much that I said that man, then just pretend that I said, "Ginobili led a massively less talented Team Argentina over Team USA", rather than "led a team of scrubs". In the end, my point was that Ginobili was a good leader, not that Team Argentina was full of bums who could barely lace up their shoes. They were scrubs in NBA terms, because most either never played in the NBA, or became bench warmers/players on awful teams. Ginobili and Scola were the only two from that team who ever amounted to anything significant.
What butthurt are you talking about exactly? Are you desperately searching for some reason to pretend I'm upset since you're still mad I correctly predicted that the Mavs would suck this year and not make the playoffs?Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Next time let the grown ups talk without crying for attention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Harden is still solidly behind (no homo) a 35 yr old Kobe....don't kid yourselves if you think he can lead a team to a play-off series win...
:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin: rollin:rollin:rollinQuote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
lol kidd k
I agree that Kobe is still the best SG in the league, and still arguably the 2nd best player in the league behind Lebron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolaid_Man
Still have to wait and see what Harden does. His team around him kind of sucks right now though. Losing a playoff series as the 8th seed with crappy teammates doesn't give us much insight as to his ability to lead a team to a playoff series win.
If your team can't make the playoffs and you have as good of a supporting cast around you can't ...and I repeat...you can't be the "2nd best player in the league" stretch.
What th... :lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by stretch
What th... :lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by DAF86
Go ahead and delete that post before more people see it, you still have time.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Yeah if Kobe was the 2nd best player in the NBA, the Lakers would be well above .500
That's blasphemy Sook! Are you actually talking about the guy who leads a team with 4 perceived HOFers, a team with a higher win percentage when he passes and deferred/shootss less? :lol
Sorry, but I'll take a player who doesn't create a schism in his own locker room.
Go ahead and delete your response before more people (excluding Laker fans) see it.. you still have time.Quote:
Originally Posted by DAF86
Harden is working with ALOT LESS and is doing much more. He is the best SG in this league. Tim Duncan is the best PF that ever played, but even his day will come (I cried when we traded Hakeem). Kobe's time is over, the guy is playing with future HOFers and his team is out of the playoffs (he's playing on a team that's a weaker version of the Hakeen, Barkley, and Drekler hookup, hell this is Kobe, Malone, and Payton part 2. Harden is playing with a collection of Newbies and has his team in the playoff picture. It's time to pass the label.
Dude, check again who I was responding to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmac&Luther
Yea, I agree with you. With that sort of talent, no way can you excuse missing the playoffs. Can you ever pin such a case on one player? No. But when you are that loaded up your ass making the playoffs is setting the bar as low as it can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmac&Luther
Tmac&Luther I think you are misinterpreting everyone's posts today...are you on drugs? :lol:toast
Is there anyone with worse takes than stretch? :lol
I'd say "Diaw > Lee" is a worse take than any of stretch's, tbh...Quote:
Originally Posted by FkLA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clipper Nation
Empty stat padder is empty. Not saying Diaw is better but still :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Clipper Nation
LolQuote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Youre a faggot so of course you would.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clipper Nation
Trying to hide your sadness with fake laughter, faggot? Enjoy the early fishing trip before the playoffs even start this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
All was needed was for you to say you're sorry for not being clear. No need to get defensive over your mistake. Your first comment was quite clear and inaccurate. Just k.i.m.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
I never said the players on the 2004 Team USA squad were bad. But aside from Duncan and Iverson, they were either second tier players or they were rookie players who would end up being stars but didn't get playing time. There was no Kobe, no Shaq, no KG, no T-Mac, no Kidd, no Vince. Most of the best American NBA players didn't play. The only true franchise superstars were Duncan and Iverson. Guys like Odom and Jefferson and Marion would never be on the squad if the best American NBA players decided to play. And after Duncan and Iverson, those three of Odom, Jefferson, and Marion were probably the next best three players on the team that got a lot of minutes. Again, in the gold medal match, Carmelo Anthony did not play. LeBron played 3 minutes. Why compare talent using Melo and LeBron when they didn't even play? That's why I went to Odom and Jefferson and Marion. They were the next best players on that squad.Quote:
Anyway, compared to Team USA, yes Ginobili did have a ragtag group of scrubs. You cite their "7 NBA players" as if they're on the same level as Wade, Melo, Duncan, Iverson, Marion, etc. Even Richard Jefferson back then was better than every player Team Argentina had except Manu and Scola. Also, many of those guys were eventually NBA players, not NBA players at the time.
Marion was also a very good player at the time. . .don't confuse what he is now for what he was. He was averaging 20/10 back then with borderline elite defensive ability. Odom was averaging 17/10/4 in the NBA, though not an elite defender. And Jefferson, while Spurfans love to shit on him, was actually playing at his peak back then. The year after the olympics, he averaged 22/7/4, and went to the Finals twice as the 2nd-3rd best player on his team leading into that olympic games. We're not talking about scrubs. Stephen Marburry and Amar'e Stoudemire weren't scrubs either btw.
Meanwhile, look at the guys like Andres Nocioni, Carlos Delfino, and Fabrico Oberto whom you're talking up as great NBA stars. Those three (and Scola) combined for exactly 0 seconds of play in the NBA before that game. Delfino went on to being a bench scrub for 3 years after that before becoming a mediocre starter for a bad team, still not putting up good numbers. Noc ended up playing for a dead end team. Spurfans know about Oberto and won't defend him being referred to as a scrub.
I literally don't even know who the other 2 of the "7" NBA players you're referring to were, because I've never heard of the rest of them outside of being on that team. Manu was the only guy with NBA experience back then, and it was just 2 years of it.
Delfino played in the NBA in 2003-04. Nocioni played in the NBA the following season after the Olympics. Scola was drafted in 2002 and would have been in the NBA sooner but had contract obligations and buyout issues. Walter Herrmann would play in the NBA. Pepe Sanchez made a couple NBA rosters but didn't cut it. Then there were Oberto and Wolkowyski. I don't claim those two weren't scrubs. I shouldn't have included Oberto. I don't mind him being called a scrub. But I did say he wasn't just a 2-8 MPG guy. And in his short NBA stint, he wasn't. Along with Ginobili, Argentina had three guys that won or would win in the following seasons the Spanish League MVP in Herrmann, Nocioni, and Scola. They weren't scrubs. They were some of the best players in one of the best pro leagues outside the NBA. And I never called Delfino, Nocioni, and Oberto "NBA stars." There you go misrepresenting what I said again. I just don't think you can call them scrubs, even compared to Team USA.
You can keep Wade in the conversation. But how can you put LeBron and Melo into the conversation when comparing talent when they didn't even play? Again 3 minutes between them in the gold medal game. They didn't play. You talked about Marion and Jefferson and what kind of players they were in 2004, but don't apply the same logic to Melo and LeBron. They were off their rookie NBA seasons and didn't really get a chance to play. But you want to use them in the talent comparison? Not logical. And Wade too was coming off his rookie campaign and wasn't the star he would end up becoming. In that gold medal game, he was the only one of those 3 to get significant minutes and he went 1-for-8 for 2 points with 3 turnovers. Dwyane Wade wasn't Dwyane Wade yet. While most of the Argentine players who got significant minutes were still in the primes of their careers.Quote:
"If you take LeBron, Melo and Wade out of the conversation". . .really? So now you've taken out 5 players from the conversation in total. Duncan, Iverson, LeBron, Melo and Wade, and are just talking about the "worst" players on the team vs the best from Argentina (with revisionist history too, by calling them NBA players before they even played there). How many players should we remove from the argument, and facts should we ignore exactly? I think I'm just going to stick to the facts, not remove or ignore them.
Right, they're not nearly as talented as Team USA. If it bothers you so much that I said that man, then just pretend that I said, "Ginobili led a massively less talented Team Argentina over Team USA", rather than "led a team of scrubs". In the end, my point was that Ginobili was a good leader, not that Team Argentina was full of bums who could barely lace up their shoes. They were scrubs in NBA terms, because most either never played in the NBA, or became bench warmers/players on awful teams. Ginobili and Scola were the only two from that team who ever amounted to anything significant.
And I don't agree that Argentina was massively less talented team than Team USA in the 2004 Olympics. Not when you factor in the things I've said, including team chemistry where most of the guys on the Argentine team had played together for years in international competition together while Team USA had a couple weeks leading up to the Olympics together. Not when you factor the fact that some of the most talented players on Team USA were young and Larry Brown didn't give them significant playing time. Do you also forget that Team Argentina had already beaten a Team USA in the 2002 FIBA World Championships? It was already proven that several international teams like Argentina and Yugoslavia and Spain could not only hang with but defeat a team of American NBA players. And Team USA didn't field the best team possible in the 2004 Olympics.
If you want to meet halfway, what I will concede is that the talent of individual players on Team USA by in large was greater than the talent of individual players on Argentina. But the game wasn't a series of one-on-one games between players. As a team, the talent level wasn't nearly as lopsided as you suggest for the reasons I've stated. Manu still gets and deserves a great deal of credit for leading Argentina to gold in 2004. But I think your opinion about the talent disparity is misguided because you only look at talent of individuals and do not take into account the other factors I've stated.
that olympic year RJ also signed a 40m extension during the games.....lol he didnt play like his worth the contract
James Harden, I think he is the Rockets' franchise player...
oberto and delfino were solid role players on contenders back then so they were not scrubs like you described tbh, nocioni was like the 3rd best player in chicago behind only deng and gordon and was one of the favorites to win 6th man of the year award. didn't know many teams who had such level of NBA talents back in the day, spain only had one significant NBA player in pau, and some true scrubs like raul lopez who never earned a solid stand in the NBA. china had yao who was arguably good but it still didn't make no difference when their next best was monke bateer :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
argentina was like the only national team besides US that could make up a starting 5 with NBA players imho
lol utsaQuote:
Originally Posted by FkLA
dudes were all jumping on the harden bashing website when i said they were all idiots for doing so..then harden went to houston and now everyone is on his cock? wtf
Defensive over my mistake? The only mistake that was made was your misinterpretation of what I meant. You tried to "correct" me, I cleared up what I meant for you in a way where it made logical sense that that's what I meant, and you refused to believe what I'm saying about it. And no, I'm not going to apologize for your misconceptions. Nor am I going to pretend I meant something I didn't because you seem to think there's a conspiracy at work.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
Btw, I also meant that they beat Team USA at a game of basketball, not tennis, football, or ping pong. Oh, I also didn't mean that they "beat" Team USA by bludgeoning them with baseball bats. I mean, I guess I have to specifiy and say all these things I didn't mean, otherwise you're going to come up with some random shit I must've possibly meant since I didn't specify all possible parameters of what I meant and didn't mean.
Not even going to bother with the rest if you're going to just nitpick shit then have the audasity to expect an apology to satiate your paranoia.
You could make a starting 5 with 5 Matt Bonners too. Doesn't mean it's going to be a good starting 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Latarian Milton
Oberto was a mediocre role player with a very minor role on a contender. He was considered one of the weakest links of that team actually.
Nocioni wasn't very good. He scored, and that's about it. Semi decent PPG doesn't mean 3rd best player either. You can pump up Gordon all you want but that doesn't somehow make Noc any better than he was. Also, what year exactly was he the third best player on the Bulls? He was the 7th or 8th best player on that team in 2005. 5th best in 2006. 5th best in 2007. 5th or 6th best in 2008. 9th or 10th best in 2009.
I have no idea what you're talking about with being their 3rd best player. You're way off on that one dude. I would ask if you actually watched the Bulls much (or at all) when he was on their team instead of just looking at a stat sheet, but you can't have looked at the stat sheet and possibly come to that conclusion.
Delfino was a scrub for Detroit, not an important role player. Less than 4 PPG first two years with them (2005, 2006), then barely cracked the 5 point barrier once Detroit stopped being a contender (2007). He was an irrelevant part of that team.
I'd say Harden is top 10, but not top 5. I'd still rank him behind Kobe and D-Wade at shooting guard. He and Kobe have virtually identical statistics, and Kobe is a much better defender. No way I'd rank him ahead of guys like Lebron, Durant, Parker, or CP3 right now. The two best bigs in terms of PER (Tim Duncan and Brook Lopez) both rank ahead of him (in terms of PER). Harder to compare guards to bigs though in my opinion. The highest I could rank him right now would be 7th. If Dwight Howard wasn't having such a down year, for him at least, I would put him ahead of Harden as well.
lolwutQuote:
Originally Posted by mercos
I don't really watch a lot of Rockets games or pay attention to Harden's defense too closely when I have watched them. And based on his defensive rating, it doesn't seem like he's all that great a defender. But Kobe can't be a much better defender than Harden. Kobe doesn't even try on defense most of the time. When I watch Lakers games, there will be a bunch of times during games where the guy Kobe's defending is taking wide open jumpers from one corner and Kobe is all the way on the opposite elbow staring at the guy who just had the ball and because Kobe isn't paying attention to his man. Kobe usually doesn't get back in transition. He constantly gets beat off the dribble too. And even when he's the one who fucked up on defense, you'll see him wave up both hands in the air like it was his teammates' fault for not covering for him. Maybe Kobe has the better potential to still be the better defender, but it seems he rarely shows the desire to be that unless it's a nationally televised game against a big name like LeBron or Durant or Carmelo.
With the way Kobe is for the most part disinterested in playing defense, even if Harden is a below average defender, no way is Kobe "much better" than Harden defensively. And I'm saying that as someone who is still a fan of Kobe. Kobe's defense is atrocious. Kobe may or may not still be better than Harden. That might be a debate. But it won't be because of his defense.
This much is true. I was speaking more of pure defensive ability, where I would put Kobe far ahead of Harden, who has never shown anything special on the defensive end.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
Forgetting about Greece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
You too.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
Harden and Kobe are both terrible defensive players, tbh..
I don't know where anybody got the idea that Harden is a decent defender..he wasn't last year and he still isn't..