James Harden - where do you currently rank him?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sook

Joe Johnson? Really Jamstone? You have made some good posts but that is just flat out retarded. Johnson was one of the biggest chuckers and stat padders if there was one. I don't think anyone could call Harden that right now, they are completely different players, the Manu comparisons are probably 100 x more accurate than the JJ comparisons. Harden attacks relentlessly, guys like JJ have never done that. Young Dwade is a good comparison too. I like to wait for the rest of the season and more time before making claims. But people don't seem to realize how crappy and scrappy the rockets are, there is a reason they were projected to win 33 games this season.
Did they get the 9th spot the last couple of years? Yea they did, but they also had a better supporting cast than right now. They had Scola/Lowry/Brooks/Drajic and other players they completely lost now.

---

You act like I'm comparing Harden to Ricky Davis or JR Rider. It's not an insult to compare him to Joe Johnson, a 6 time all star, a guy that averaged 20+ PPG for 5 straight seasons, a guy who has some physical and talent similarities for the position. All things I mentioned before. I didn't say their games are identical. I didn't say their styles of play were the same. I'm comparing two SGs who have some talent and physical similarities and also some production similarities.

And I'll explain the comparison further. Another reason I made the comparison is because they had comparable situations. Both Harden and Johnson were complementary players for really good teams and then because of team financial reasons and the desire to get paid and be "the man," they were both traded to different teams where they became the lead dog. Joe Johnson from Phoenix to Atlanta and Harden from OKC to Houston. So it wasn't just the two of them being SGs and having similar talent. But the situations are comparable. And if you looked at the posts where I've talked about the comparison, my point has been that if Harden doesn't have some measure of success in the playoffs, both individually and as a team, then his career path could go the way of Joe Johnson's career the last few years since 2006-07. It goes back to one of my first posts in this thread about Harden needing that post season performance to cement his status as an elite player.

The Joe Johnson comparison wasn't even intended as an insult. And it wasn't meant to suggest they are exactly the same type of player with the same exact style of play. But if you can't see there are similarities in not only their talent but also their career situations as they became franchise type players for different teams, I don't know what to tell you. Some people think any player comparison to "their guy" that isn't with a Hall of Famer or a multiple NBA champion is an insult. Stop being so sensitive. The Joe Johnson comparison actually makes sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Samuel Eto'o

Hes like manu, but actually capable of leading a team.

---

Manu's olympic gold medal he got after kicking the shit out of Team USA's superteam with his group of ragtag scrubs says hello.

How many teams have beaten Team USA since NBA players were allowed to play for them again? Oh yeah, just one. Ginobili's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kidd K

Manu's olympic gold medal he got after kicking the shit out of Team USA's superteam with his group of ragtag scrubs says hello.

How many teams have beaten Team USA since NBA players were allowed to play for them again? Oh yeah, just one. Ginobili's.

---

I think we remember history differently.

That USA "superteam" was comprised of Duncan and Iverson, a bunch of second tier players like Odom and Marion and Richard Jefferson, and then LeBron, Wade, and Carmelo who Larry Brown hardly played. Talent wise, especially because Larry Brown wouldn't play the young kids much, they were among the weaker teams USA fielded in international competition since using NBA players. And that ragtag group of scrubs on Team Argentina had 7 guys other than Ginobili who played in the NBA. Maybe you were trying to spin things a little bit? Just a little?

Also, as far as how many teams have beaten Team USA since NBA players were allowed to play... ummmmm Yugoslavia, Spain, Puerto Rico, Lithuania too. Just saying. It's not just one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamStone

I think we remember history differently.

That USA "superteam" was comprised of Duncan and Iverson, a bunch of second tier players like Odom and Marion and Richard Jefferson, and then LeBron, Wade, and Carmelo who Larry Brown hardly played. Talent wise, especially because Larry Brown wouldn't play the young kids much, they were among the weaker teams USA fielded in international competition since using NBA players. And that ragtag group of scrubs on Team Argentina had 7 guys other than Ginobili who played in the NBA. Maybe you were trying to spin things a little bit? Just a little?

Also, as far as how many teams have beaten Team USA since NBA players were allowed to play... ummmmm Yugoslavia, Spain, Puerto Rico, Lithuania too. Just saying. It's not just one.

---

I was talking about for the gold medal, not just one game.

Yeah Team Argentina had NBA players, so doesn't every national team. And it's usually guys who get 2-8 minutes a game. Meanwhile team USA is usually loaded with stars. Marion, LeBron, Wade, Melo, Duncan, Iverson, etc, aren't "second tier players" either. They were each better than the 2nd best player on Team Argentina. You can only spin it so much before it just seems retarded. You're seriously trying to say those guys were comparable to Melo, Wade, etc? :lol

Let's look at that list of amazing NBA players Team Argentina had and we can compare and contrast.

Manu Ginobili
Carlos Delfino
Gabriel Fernendez
Leonardo Gutierrez
Walter Herrmann
Alejandro Montecchia
Andres Nocioni
Fabrico Oberto
Luis Scola
Hugo Sconochini
Ruben Wolkowhyski

Yeah, they were just LOADED with talent, huh? Two NBA players of note, Ginobili and a young Luis Scola who wasn't in the NBA year (4 years off). The other "great NBA players", were scrubs like Nocioni, Oberto, and Delfino.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Latarian Milton

he's probably a top 5 SG in the league now, and a top 30 overall but im not yet ready to put him in the same line with the likes of bron, dirk, kobe etc... nigga still has a lot to prove and it's only the first season for him to play as the teams #1, he might be another evanascent one-season superstar like 05-06 mike james imho

---

Mike James???...nigga put the crack pipe down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamStone

You act like I'm comparing Harden to Ricky Davis or JR Rider. It's not an insult to compare him to Joe Johnson, a 6 time all star, a guy that averaged 20+ PPG for 5 straight seasons, a guy who has some physical and talent similarities for the position. All things I mentioned before. I didn't say their games are identical. I didn't say their styles of play were the same. I'm comparing two SGs who have some talent and physical similarities and also some production similarities.

And I'll explain the comparison further. Another reason I made the comparison is because they had comparable situations. Both Harden and Johnson were complementary players for really good teams and then because of team financial reasons and the desire to get paid and be "the man," they were both traded to different teams where they became the lead dog. Joe Johnson from Phoenix to Atlanta and Harden from OKC to Houston. So it wasn't just the two of them being SGs and having similar talent. But the situations are comparable. And if you looked at the posts where I've talked about the comparison, my point has been that if Harden doesn't have some measure of success in the playoffs, both individually and as a team, then his career path could go the way of Joe Johnson's career the last few years since 2006-07. It goes back to one of my first posts in this thread about Harden needing that post season performance to cement his status as an elite player.

The Joe Johnson comparison wasn't even intended as an insult. And it wasn't meant to suggest they are exactly the same type of player with the same exact style of play. But if you can't see there are similarities in not only their talent but also their career situations as they became franchise type players for different teams, I don't know what to tell you. Some people think any player comparison to "their guy" that isn't with a Hall of Famer or a multiple NBA champion is an insult. Stop being so sensitive. The Joe Johnson comparison actually makes sense.

---

To be honest it is a fair comparison, Harden has a lot to prove before he can be called a full fledged superstar and playoff performance is gonna be key to that. Even with that said I still think his style, craftiness, ability to get to the free throw line at will, and shoot from anywhere on the court makes him more like Ginobili but time will tell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kidd K

Yeah, they were just LOADED with talent, huh? Two NBA players of note, Ginobili and a young Luis Scola who wasn't in the NBA year (4 years off). The other "great NBA players", were scrubs like Nocioni, Oberto, and Delfino.

---

lol at the butthurt here

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kidd K

I was talking about for the gold medal, not just one game.

Yeah Team Argentina had NBA players, so doesn't every national team. And it's usually guys who get 2-8 minutes a game. Meanwhile team USA is usually loaded with stars. Marion, LeBron, Wade, Melo, Duncan, Iverson, etc, aren't "second tier players" either. They were each better than the 2nd best player on Team Argentina. You can only spin it so much before it just seems retarded. You're seriously trying to say those guys were comparable to Melo, Wade, etc? :lol

Let's look at that list of amazing NBA players Team Argentina had and we can compare and contrast.

Manu Ginobili
Carlos Delfino
Gabriel Fernendez
Leonardo Gutierrez
Walter Herrmann
Alejandro Montecchia
Andres Nocioni
Fabrico Oberto
Luis Scola
Hugo Sconochini
Ruben Wolkowhyski

Yeah, they were just LOADED with talent, huh? Two NBA players of note, Ginobili and a young Luis Scola who wasn't in the NBA year (4 years off). The other "great NBA players", were scrubs like Nocioni, Oberto, and Delfino.

---

Why didn't you say "gold medal" then? Read what you wrote and you can see why I responded to it. No mention of gold medal game.

I didn't say Team USA didn't have better talent than Argentina. But you called Ginobili's teammates a ragtag group of scrubs. Hardly scrubs. And Nocioni, Delfino, and Oberto weren't/aren't 2-8 minute per game guys in the NBA. While other international teams have NBA players, how many have 8 on the same international squad? How many have more than a couple that actually are legitimate rotation guys on NBA rosters? Over the past decade or so, only Yugoslavia and Spain. So yeah, I challenge the notion that Argentina was a ragtag group of scrubs. Were they as talented as Team USA? I wouldn't say so. But the talent difference wasn't huge, especially when you consider that most of the Argentine players had played together on the international squad for a long time, had built better team chemistry, and were much more familiar with each other's games. And no, they aren't better than guys like LeBron and Melo and Wade, but LeBron and Melo and Wade weren't playing much. In that gold medal match, LeBron, Wade, Melo played a combined 22 minutes. Odom, Marion, Jefferson played a combined 73 minutes. LeBron, the best player on the planet, played 3 minutes in the gold medal match. Melo didn't play.

I called players like Marion, Odom, and Richard Jefferson second tier players, not Duncan, Iverson, LeBron, Wade, Melo. Please don't twist my words. At the time or for that matter any time in their careers, do you consider those guys top players in the NBA? Elite players? Franchise type players? Marion, Odom, and Jefferson were getting more minutes than LeBron, Melo, and Wade. As I said, Larry Brown wasn't even really playing them much, while guys like Marion and Odom and Jefferson were getting plenty of minutes.

If you take LeBron, Melo, and Wade out of conversation, you start comparing guys like Nocioni and Oberto to guys like Odom and Marion, and sorry, that's not a huge talent difference on the international stage, particularly because Argentina played more like a team of guys who have played with each other for a much longer time.

But it's fine. Whatever you want to believe is fine. I really only take exception to the comment that Ginobili's teammates were scrubs, because in reality they weren't. Not as talented as Team USA, but certainly not scrubs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FkLA

Isnt there a stat out there that shows the Lakers are terrible when Kobe shoots x-amount of shots? How does that not prove that chucking is detrimental to a team ?

---

yes something like lakers are .27 when Kobe is shooting at least 20 times

LOL this forum ... this thread ...

http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/upl...nd-his-dog.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamStone

You act like I'm comparing Harden to Ricky Davis or JR Rider. It's not an insult to compare him to Joe Johnson, a 6 time all star, a guy that averaged 20+ PPG for 5 straight seasons, a guy who has some physical and talent similarities for the position. All things I mentioned before. I didn't say their games are identical. I didn't say their styles of play were the same. I'm comparing two SGs who have some talent and physical similarities and also some production similarities.

And I'll explain the comparison further. Another reason I made the comparison is because they had comparable situations. Both Harden and Johnson were complementary players for really good teams and then because of team financial reasons and the desire to get paid and be "the man," they were both traded to different teams where they became the lead dog. Joe Johnson from Phoenix to Atlanta and Harden from OKC to Houston. So it wasn't just the two of them being SGs and having similar talent. But the situations are comparable. And if you looked at the posts where I've talked about the comparison, my point has been that if Harden doesn't have some measure of success in the playoffs, both individually and as a team, then his career path could go the way of Joe Johnson's career the last few years since 2006-07. It goes back to one of my first posts in this thread about Harden needing that post season performance to cement his status as an elite player.

The Joe Johnson comparison wasn't even intended as an insult. And it wasn't meant to suggest they are exactly the same type of player with the same exact style of play. But if you can't see there are similarities in not only their talent but also their career situations as they became franchise type players for different teams, I don't know what to tell you. Some people think any player comparison to "their guy" that isn't with a Hall of Famer or a multiple NBA champion is an insult. Stop being so sensitive. The Joe Johnson comparison actually makes sense.

---

Believe me , it wasn't taken as an insult, just a bad comparison. I am not a die hard Harden fan, he is a good player that plays for the rockets and that is all. You mentioned all of JJ's AS appearances, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he has been a stat padder and chucker. JJ doesn't seem to care much about winning if his track record says anything. Situations being alike are a poor measure of comparing players. If you want to talk situations and even efficiency, he is right on par with tracy mcgrady:

In the first four years of their NBA careers, James Harden and Tracy McGrady have almost identical growth curve in efficiency rating, especially in the field of EFF.
http://i47.tinypic.com/2cdzygk.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamStone

Also, with respect to how he makes the Rockets better as a team, it's interesting to note that the past 3 seasons, the Rockets have finished the season over .500 and ended up being the 9th place team in the Western Conference, each of the past 3 seasons. Right now the Rockets are slotted as the 8th seed and are 4 games above .500. It's not like he's transformed the Rockets from a 20 win lottery team to a top 4 team in the West. They're still a slightly above average, low playoff seed team. So I think rushing to give him too much praise would be premature at this point. Let's see them finish strong, make the playoffs, and actually do something in the playoffs with Harden performing at a high level first.

---

Are you on crack? I'm just asking, because it's interesting to note that all the players who started and finished in the 9th spot the last 3 seasons don't start here. Newsflash buddy, this Rockets team was already "transformed" well before the Harden trade even took place and the fact that they aren't on pace to be a 20 win lotterty team speaks more about the job Morey has done and the ability of Harden to carry this team. When you have the youngest team in the entire league, you shouldn't be in a playoff hunt, usually you're in the race for the worst record in the league.. the reason why they aren't seeking the worst record in the league is because of the stellar play of James Harden.

P.S.

WhyTF are you comparing this Rockets team to a team that finished outside of the playoffs when literally ever starter/role player has been replaced? How many times have the youngest team in the league made the playoffs? Harden isn't Joe Johnson and he's doing things Joe Johnson never did. He's a legit top ten player and arguably the top SG in the league,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamStone

Why didn't you say "gold medal" then? Read what you wrote and you can see why I responded to it. No mention of gold medal game.

I didn't say Team USA didn't have better talent than Argentina. But you called Ginobili's teammates a ragtag group of scrubs. Hardly scrubs. And Nocioni, Delfino, and Oberto weren't/aren't 2-8 minute per game guys in the NBA. While other international teams have NBA players, how many have 8 on the same international squad? How many have more than a couple that actually are legitimate rotation guys on NBA rosters? Over the past decade or so, only Yugoslavia and Spain. So yeah, I challenge the notion that Argentina was a ragtag group of scrubs. Were they as talented as Team USA? I wouldn't say so. But the talent difference wasn't huge, especially when you consider that most of the Argentine players had played together on the international squad for a long time, had built better team chemistry, and were much more familiar with each other's games. And no, they aren't better than guys like LeBron and Melo and Wade, but LeBron and Melo and Wade weren't playing much. In that gold medal match, LeBron, Wade, Melo played a combined 22 minutes. Odom, Marion, Jefferson played a combined 73 minutes. LeBron, the best player on the planet, played 3 minutes in the gold medal match. Melo didn't play.

I called players like Marion, Odom, and Richard Jefferson second tier players, not Duncan, Iverson, LeBron, Wade, Melo. Please don't twist my words. At the time or for that matter any time in their careers, do you consider those guys top players in the NBA? Elite players? Franchise type players? Marion, Odom, and Jefferson were getting more minutes than LeBron, Melo, and Wade. As I said, Larry Brown wasn't even really playing them much, while guys like Marion and Odom and Jefferson were getting plenty of minutes.

If you take LeBron, Melo, and Wade out of conversation, you start comparing guys like Nocioni and Oberto to guys like Odom and Marion, and sorry, that's not a huge talent difference on the international stage, particularly because Argentina played more like a team of guys who have played with each other for a much longer time.

But it's fine. Whatever you want to believe is fine. I really only take exception to the comment that Ginobili's teammates were scrubs, because in reality they weren't. Not as talented as Team USA, but certainly not scrubs.

---

I'm not going to to troubleshoot all of my points so you can't say "well you didn't say it wasn't this, or that, or this". I was referring to them being the only team to beat out Team USA to win the gold medal since NBA players were allowed to play in the games. Obviously Team USA has lost games before, but only one team has golded over them.

Anyway, compared to Team USA, yes Ginobili did have a ragtag group of scrubs. You cite their "7 NBA players" as if they're on the same level as Wade, Melo, Duncan, Iverson, Marion, etc. Even Richard Jefferson back then was better than every player Team Argentina had except Manu and Scola. Also, many of those guys were eventually NBA players, not NBA players at the time.

Marion was also a very good player at the time. . .don't confuse what he is now for what he was. He was averaging 20/10 back then with borderline elite defensive ability. Odom was averaging 17/10/4 in the NBA, though not an elite defender. And Jefferson, while Spurfans love to shit on him, was actually playing at his peak back then. The year after the olympics, he averaged 22/7/4, and went to the Finals twice as the 2nd-3rd best player on his team leading into that olympic games. We're not talking about scrubs. Stephen Marburry and Amar'e Stoudemire weren't scrubs either btw.

Meanwhile, look at the guys like Andres Nocioni, Carlos Delfino, and Fabrico Oberto whom you're talking up as great NBA stars. Those three (and Scola) combined for exactly 0 seconds of play in the NBA before that game. Delfino went on to being a bench scrub for 3 years after that before becoming a mediocre starter for a bad team, still not putting up good numbers. Noc ended up playing for a dead end team. Spurfans know about Oberto and won't defend him being referred to as a scrub.

I literally don't even know who the other 2 of the "7" NBA players you're referring to were, because I've never heard of the rest of them outside of being on that team. Manu was the only guy with NBA experience back then, and it was just 2 years of it.

"If you take LeBron, Melo and Wade out of the conversation". . .really? So now you've taken out 5 players from the conversation in total. Duncan, Iverson, LeBron, Melo and Wade, and are just talking about the "worst" players on the team vs the best from Argentina (with revisionist history too, by calling them NBA players before they even played there). How many players should we remove from the argument, and facts should we ignore exactly? I think I'm just going to stick to the facts, not remove or ignore them.

Right, they're not nearly as talented as Team USA. If it bothers you so much that I said that man, then just pretend that I said, "Ginobili led a massively less talented Team Argentina over Team USA", rather than "led a team of scrubs". In the end, my point was that Ginobili was a good leader, not that Team Argentina was full of bums who could barely lace up their shoes. They were scrubs in NBA terms, because most either never played in the NBA, or became bench warmers/players on awful teams. Ginobili and Scola were the only two from that team who ever amounted to anything significant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stretch

lol at the butthurt here

---

What butthurt are you talking about exactly? Are you desperately searching for some reason to pretend I'm upset since you're still mad I correctly predicted that the Mavs would suck this year and not make the playoffs?

Next time let the grown ups talk without crying for attention.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stretch

No, this isn't knee jerk after what he did to OKC last night, I've been wondering about this for a while.

Is he a top 10 player in the league right now? Top 5 even?

Is he the best SG in the league right now?

When I see him, I think of a young D-Wade. They both have similar styles, as they are attack heavy, use their body well to finish or draw contact and get to the line. Wade is more athletic, while Harden is a better shooter, higher IQ, and better at running an offense.

Thoughts?

---

Harden is still solidly behind (no homo) a 35 yr old Kobe....don't kid yourselves if you think he can lead a team to a play-off series win...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kidd K

What butthurt are you talking about exactly? Are you desperately searching for some reason to pretend I'm upset since you're still mad I correctly predicted that the Mavs would suck this year and not make the playoffs?

Next time let the grown ups talk without crying for attention.

---

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin: rollin:rollin:rollin

lol kidd k

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Koolaid_Man

Harden is still solidly behind (no homo) a 35 yr old Kobe....don't kid yourselves if you think he can lead a team to a play-off series win...

---

I agree that Kobe is still the best SG in the league, and still arguably the 2nd best player in the league behind Lebron.

Still have to wait and see what Harden does. His team around him kind of sucks right now though. Losing a playoff series as the 8th seed with crappy teammates doesn't give us much insight as to his ability to lead a team to a playoff series win.

If your team can't make the playoffs and you have as good of a supporting cast around you can't ...and I repeat...you can't be the "2nd best player in the league" stretch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stretch

I agree that Kobe is still the best SG in the league, and still arguably the 2nd best player in the league behind Lebron.

---

What th... :lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DAF86

manu > dirk

---

What th... :lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stretch

What th... :lmao

---

Go ahead and delete that post before more people see it, you still have time.

Yeah if Kobe was the 2nd best player in the NBA, the Lakers would be well above .500

That's blasphemy Sook! Are you actually talking about the guy who leads a team with 4 perceived HOFers, a team with a higher win percentage when he passes and deferred/shootss less? :lol

Sorry, but I'll take a player who doesn't create a schism in his own locker room.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DAF86

Go ahead and delete that post before more people see it, you still have time.

---

Go ahead and delete your response before more people (excluding Laker fans) see it.. you still have time.

Harden is working with ALOT LESS and is doing much more. He is the best SG in this league. Tim Duncan is the best PF that ever played, but even his day will come (I cried when we traded Hakeem). Kobe's time is over, the guy is playing with future HOFers and his team is out of the playoffs (he's playing on a team that's a weaker version of the Hakeen, Barkley, and Drekler hookup, hell this is Kobe, Malone, and Payton part 2. Harden is playing with a collection of Newbies and has his team in the playoff picture. It's time to pass the label.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tmac&Luther

Go ahead and delete your response before more people (excluding Laker fans) see it.. you still have time.

Harden is working with ALOT LESS and is doing much more. He is the best SG in this league. Tim Duncan is the best PF that ever played, but even his day will come. Kobe time is over, the guy is playing with future HOFers and his team is out of the playoffs. Harden is playing with a collection of Newbies and has his team in the playoff picture. It's time to pass the label.

---

Dude, check again who I was responding to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tmac&Luther

That's blasphemy Sook! Are you actually talking about the guy who leads a team with 4 perceived HOFers, a team with a higher win percentage when he passes and deferred/shootss less? :lol

Sorry, but I'll take a player who doesn't create a schism in his own locker room.

---

Yea, I agree with you. With that sort of talent, no way can you excuse missing the playoffs. Can you ever pin such a case on one player? No. But when you are that loaded up your ass making the playoffs is setting the bar as low as it can get.