Trade Idea: Mohammed For Marshall

I believe that a Nazr Mohammed for Donyell Marshall trade is something the Spurs should consider this summer. Right off the bat, it sounds like the Spurs are getting the short end of the stick, but consider the following:

1) Marshall was the player the Spurs wanted last year at the trading deadline. They tried for weeks to pry him away from Toronto. It was only after that trade fell apart that they went and got Mohammed.

2) Pop is high on Marshall. Last season during a Pop show, they asked him about Marshall. He said that he usually doesn't talk about other team's players, but he continued and said that Marshall is a player the Spurs have liked for a long time and is a very underrated player in the league.

3) The Spurs three best players all operate in the paint. Duncan needs room to post up. Parker needs room to drive. Manu is at his deadliest when he's causing havoc in the paint. While Mohammed was good in the playoffs, he isn't a player that will provide spacing. That is a big reason why when Horry is on the floor, the Spurs played so much better. With the spacing Horry's shooting provides, everything just flowed so much smoother.

4) Marshall can really shoot. He tied the NBA record for three-pointers in a game last year when he hit 12 in a single contest. He shot over 41.6% from deep for the year -- his second consecutive season shooting over 40%. On two pointers, last season he shot 48%.

5) Mohammed is going to cost a lot to re-sign. I don't think Spurs fan understand how much he'll be to lockup. If Erick Dampier's contract is north of $70M, Mohammed's price isn't going to be too far behind when it becomes obvious that Mohammed is the better player.

Now when you compare the two players, it's close to a wash. The only huge difference is age. Mohammed is 28 while Marshall is 32. But Marshall has three or four good years left, where as Mohammed will be tough to re-sign after this season. Everything else is similar.

-- Mohammed is one inch taller, but Marshall has an enormous wingspan.
-- Mohammed is the better offensive rebounder, while Marshall is the better defensive rebounder.
-- They're both decent shot blockers.
-- Marshall is a much better passer and gets more steals, while Mohammed is thicker and plays better post defense.

I think this is a trade the Spurs have to look at. It was proven this season that the Spurs work best with a perimeter shooting bigman next to Duncan. If you start Marshall and Duncan up front and have Horry, Scola and Nesterovic off the bench, that seems like a potent lineup to me. You spread the court and give more room for everyone to operate.

The only things you worry about are Marshall's age and the loss of inside muscle. You can get over the age issue when you realize that the Spurs need to win in the next three or four seasons and can't plan to have Mohammed on the roster anyways if a team throws Dampier money at him. The loss of inside muscle on defense is troublesome, but if you look at the Spurs' competition it's not that huge of a deal. Marshall is a good matchup for Rasheed Wallace. Both are long and neither are overly big. Mohammed proved to be worthless trying to guard Amare Stoudemire, so you aren't losing much there. Marshall is a good matchup for Dirk Nowitzki and all the other active power forwards in the league.

To further my point that the Spurs work better with a perimeter shooting big in the lineup, you can look at Mohammed's +/- for the season. In the regular season, the Spurs were -6.5 points when Nazr was in the game. In the playoffs, the Spurs were even with Nazr in the game. That means that he didn't really make a difference either way considering he played a lot of his times with starters around him, that isn't saying too much. Horry, on the other hand, was a +10.4 in the regular season and a +8.7 in the playoffs. Obviously his ability to spread the defense helped the Spurs. Marshall can do the same thing.

In summary, I believe that a Nazr Mohammed for Donyell Marshall trade would help the Spurs on the court in the coming years and also help them in the checkbook. Since Marshall is a free-agent, you can have him sign to a reasonable contract and make the deal. Since the Raptors need a center, they may be inclined to throw in a player or a pick to spice it up. That's just more icing on the cake. The Spurs get the player they wanted orginally last season and save Holt some money in the long run.

Win win.




P.S.

Now if the Raptors will accept a sign-and-trade involving Rasho, you do that of course. But I'm guessing that the Raptors aren't run well enough to figure out that Rasho is a good talent buried on a deep team. That's why you have to throw Nazr at them.

P.P.S.

Please do not turn this thread into a thread detailing how Duncan doesn't want to play center. If you want to speak on that subject, check out this thread.

Nazr seems so much bigger, I would hate to give away so much size for another Robert Horry type. Also Tim playing D on opposing centers would wear him down, regardless of whether he wants to do it or not.

Seems risky, but maybe that's because I admittedly don't know enough about Donyell's game.

Only if they are keeping Rasho, otherwise, it doesn't suit the Spurs.

Very good points. I completely agree with the spacing issue. The Spurs need a Center who can step back and hit a 15 foot jumper.

not a bad idea

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Originally Posted by Gino2882

Very good points. I completely agree with the spacing issue. The Spurs need a Center who can step back and hit a 15 foot jumper.

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I disagree, I think a center who can get garbage points is better on offense. Nazr would be perfect if he could finish a little better. ON defense almost anyone is better than Nazr at this point, but that could be because he doesn't know the system yet.

If Nazr improves his catching ability, and doesn't hesitate so much, adds a couple of deep post moves to his game, I'd rather have him by far.

thinking about this more
if horry resigns I am not sure I do this
if horry leaves I do this
spurs have a guy like scola coming in



does not scola do alot of what marshall does except for the three

Ya but players just dont improve their hands. Either you can catch the rock or not.

you dont trade rasho or nazr for him... that wouldnt make sense... unless you lose horry. (otherwise a good idea)

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Originally Posted by Gino2882

Ya but players just dont improve their hands. Either you can catch the rock or not.

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I don't even think it's his hands, I think it's Nazr's offensive awareness.

He isn't used to Manu and Tony's crazy passes in mid air I guess, and he doesn't have the most offensive awareness, except for after the shot has been put up. He's good at getting hustle rebounds on offense.

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Originally Posted by Gino2882

Ya but players just dont improve their hands. Either you can catch the rock or not.

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I don't think there's a problem with his hands, I think he only had trouble catching the ball in pressure situations. All the other times his hands seemed just fine. With experience and time in the system he'll be able to handle pressure better.

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Originally Posted by 2centsworth

I don't think there's a problem with his hands, I think he only had trouble catching the ball in pressure situations. All the other times his hands seemed just fine. With experience and time in the system he'll be able to handle pressure better.

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and also... we didnt see rasho handle james or fortson in the seattle series. but nazr scared them a little. what i mean is, he's as close as we have to a rough inside presence.

You make a very convincing argument, especially about the spacing issue. I agree with a lot of what you've said but what would we do when teams get physical with Tim down low? The spacing only really works well when Tim is being doubled, leaving someone open and clearing the passing lanes.

Most teams double because if they don't, Tim is usually automatic one-on-one. However the teams which give Tim single coverage, like Detroit, will still pose problems. If Duncan hadn't come out of his funk late in game 7, we could be asking ourselves some very serious questions about the team's future. If Duncan is not threatening down low against a less talented but physical player, Marshall doesn't help much.

Granted, Nazr doesn't really help the above scenario much either but he was very useful against the really thuggish teams like Denver and Seattle. I don't know if we get by those teams easily with Marshall. I like the idea but we'd still need a big body as an enforcer that could give us spot minutes. Luckily, those aren't too hard to find.

Granted, it's not the easiest trade to stomach. You trade your starting center off of your championship team for a slightly smaller and older player, but I think the rewards are there. If you consider everything and how this will give Rasho opportunities off the bench in situations and it will give Scola more time to shine, I think you do it. Watching the Spurs operate with good spacing offensively is a thing to behold. No matter what Nazr does, he's not going to be a player to create that spacing.

Bottomline is the Spurs' three best players are inside players. You can't afford for either of your two remaining role players to be inside players as well without having causing problems.

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Originally Posted by constantstate

and also... we didnt see rasho handle james or fortson in the seattle series. but nazr scared them a little. what i mean is, he's as close as we have to a rough inside presence.

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I agree, if anything the spurs need to add another brawler like Mr. Mean Larry Smith.

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Originally Posted by constantstate

and also... we didnt see rasho handle james or fortson in the seattle series. but nazr scared them a little. what i mean is, he's as close as we have to a rough inside presence.

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That's a good point. Nazr is the more physical player when compared to Donyell. But you don't lose much defensively and Marshall is actually a better defensive rebounder. You just lose some bulk and some toughness.

In the above plan, Rasho will provide the bulk and Scola the toughness.

Is this only if you don't re-sign Horry? I like the idea, but if Horry's around, it seems redundant.

Edit...just re-read and saw that Horry would be coming off the bench. So, I'll go with the maybe a bit redundant, angle. I like it, though.

I can guarantee this trade won't happen.

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Originally Posted by King Latifah

Is this only if you don't re-sign Horry? I like the idea, but if Horry's around, it seems redundant.

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In addition.

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Originally Posted by usckk

I can guarantee this trade won't happen.

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It's a DISCUSSION forum. 99% of what people say here won't happen.

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Originally Posted by timvp

That's a good point. Nazr is the more physical player when compared to Donyell. But you don't lose much defensively and Marshall is actually a better defensive rebounder. You just lose some bulk and some toughness.

In the above plan, Rasho will provide the bulk and Scola the toughness.

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Too risky don't you think? Upside is probably there but we need bigs to protect Duncan. However, if Scola is Manu at 6'10 and then I like a lot if Donyell is a better defensive rebounder like you say. Tough to give up the boards Nazr brings to the table though, not to mention the toughness.

Didn't the Spurs try to trade Malik for Donyell Marshall during the season and the Raptors wanted Rasho instead, but the Spurs balked?

I wonder if both parties are still interested.

I'd hate to see the Spurs give up some muscle up front, considering that Horry, Nesterovic and Marshall are all rather slight for bigs. timvp does hit the nail on the head about the NBA becoming more and more a game of finesse, speed and agility at virtually every spot now. Nazr was rather ineffective against a frontcourt that seemed suited to his game in the Finals.

I agree that Nazr is going to command money in the Dampier range. That's not going to be attractive to the Spurs, not at all. While I would select Nazr over Rasho, I have a feeling the cost differential would make him unattractive long term.

How much would Marshall cost? He has a solid 2 to 3 more years in this league, I feel.

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if Scola is Manu at 6'10

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Scola is 6'8.

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

Didn't the Spurs try to trade Malik for Donyell Marshall during the season and the Raptors wanted Rasho instead, but the Spurs balked?

I wonder if both parties are still interested.

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Now that I would do in a heart beat, plus Rasho would be good in the East.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

How much would Marshall cost? He has a solid 2 to 3 more years in this league, I feel.

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Nazr's deal is around $5M. Getting Marshall for 3 years and $18M might work for both sides.

The Spurs faced one of the two other toughest frontcourts in the NBA in the Finals (Heat being the 3rd) and Nazr was next to worthless, whereas a finesse guy like Horry was quite useful.

Something to think about.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

I'd hate to see the Spurs give up some muscle up front, considering that Horry, Nesterovic and Marshall are all rather slight for bigs. timvp does hit the nail on the head about the NBA becoming more and more a game of finesse, speed and agility at virtually every spot now. Nazr was rather ineffective against a frontcourt that seemed suited to his game in the Finals.

I agree that Nazr is going to command money in the Dampier range. That's not going to be attractive to the Spurs, not at all. While I would select Nazr over Rasho, I have a feeling the cost differential would make him unattractive long term.

How much would Marshall cost? He has a solid 2 to 3 more years in this league, I feel.

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The two teams that gave the spurs the most trouble were the ones that were the most physical. Therefore, I don't see how becoming a more finesse team would help them improve against their two biggest threats.

See last post.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

The Spurs faced one of the two other toughest frontcourts in the NBA in the Finals (Heat being the 3rd) and Nazr was next to worthless, whereas a finesse guy like Horry was quite useful.

Something to think about.

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Against Seattle Nazr was very useful and also against Denver. Both of those teams have very big front courts.

Maybe Nazr's trouble had more to do with the pressure of the finals rather than any lack of game.

Seattle and Denver's frontlines are nothing compared to Detroit's. I would expect Nazr to feast on those. But his showing against Detroit was rather disappointing.

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Originally Posted by timvp

That's a good point. Nazr is the more physical player when compared to Donyell. But you don't lose much defensively and Marshall is actually a better defensive rebounder. You just lose some bulk and some toughness.

In the above plan, Rasho will provide the bulk and Scola the toughness.

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yeah but you have to pick dont you? (unless you lose horry) otherwise we'd have too many guys at one spot even if you moved marshall to a backup center. and if something happens to rasho, we'd be going small very fast.

with marshall
rasho/duncan/marshall
duncan/horry/scola/marshall

with nazr
nazr/duncan/rasho
duncan/horry/scola

without horry:
rasho/duncan/marshall
duncan/scola/marshall

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

Didn't the Spurs try to trade Malik for Donyell Marshall during the season and the Raptors wanted Rasho instead, but the Spurs balked?

I wonder if both parties are still interested.

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I just don't think the Raptors are that smart. This is a team that picked Charlie Villanueva with the 7th overall pick this season and Rafeal Araujo 8th overall last season. Pete Babcock's brother doesn't know what he's doing.

That's why I think if you offer them Nazr, they might give you back Marshall and a solid young player and a pick.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Seattle and Denver's frontlines are nothing compared to Detroit's. I would expect Nazr to feast on those. But his showing against Detroit was rather disappointing.

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I agree about his performance against Detroit, it was below what he had done before. But Seattle's front like is freakin huge and dirty as all can be. Detroit's front line is very athletic and maybe Nazr is a tad too slow, especially since he doesn't fully understand pop's system.

Just some initial thoughts: A convincing arguement...without a doubt the best combo of addressing needs and working in the real world of any of the big man scenarios people have brought up so far. (Trade Rasho for Tmac, etc.) But there are a lot of questions this brings up for me. I think the Spurs will wait untill close to the trade deadline to make a decision on Nazr vs Rasho vis a vis who they hang on to.

It's too early to know if Nazr will improve defensively and offensively, or what the real cost will be to resign him (other than it will cost more than what we're paying Rasho).

The spacing issue is the biggest reason to do this deal to me, but it's not as serious a need if Horry re-ups. It would still be a long-term concern though.

I think it comes down to offensive rebounds vs. spacing. I don't think the +/- arguement works for me. The +/- numbers when Horry is in are high primarily because he is fucking clutch and is a smart player, not because of the spacing he provides. Plus, spacing doesn't help if you can't knock down shots. It's easier to hit meaningless shots in toronto midseason than it is playing for a contending team in crunchtime.

I also wonder how badly the Spurs would miss the offensive rebounds Mohammed provided. timvp, I think you said in another thread that you watched every playoff game at least three times. My question to you is, without Mohammed's offensive rebounding and garbage buckets, would the Spurs have won? Offensive rebounding was a weakness that the Rose trade addressed.

Then there's the whole Marshall in Utah experiment. Wasn't he supposed to help Malone the same way he would help Duncan? That didn't seem to go anywhere...and I think I remember that Malone was calling him soft.


intriguing proposal, though...

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Originally Posted by timvp

I just don't think the Raptors are that smart. This is a team that picked Charlie Villanueva with the 7th overall pick this season and Rafeal Araujo 8th overall last season. Pete Babcock's brother doesn't know what he's doing.

That's why I think if you offer them Nazr, they might give you back Marshall and a solid young player and a pick.

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that tells me they are picking up players that others perceive as mediocre. Rasho fits that bill perfectly.

I think this is a good argument for getting an extension done. If the Spurs come with a strong offer to Nazr now they might be able to lock him in at a decent rate.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Austin

I also wonder how badly the Spurs would miss the offensive rebounds Mohammed provided. timvp, I think you said in another thread that you watched every playoff game at least three times. My question to you is, without Mohammed's offensive rebounding and garbage buckets, would the Spurs have won? Offensive rebounding was a weakness that the Rose trade addressed.

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I think the Spurs liked Mohammed's size more than his offensive rebounding. In the Spurs' defensive philosophy, offensive rebounds aren't something the coaching staff looks at. They want players to get back on defense and not get burned by transition buckets. I think if you asked the Spurs' coaching staff, they'd tell you that Mohammed's offensive rebounding is a bonus.

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Then there's the whole Marshall in Utah experiment. Wasn't he supposed to help Malone the same way he would help Duncan?

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He played well in that role. He shot over 50% both years in Utah. Of course by then, the Utah empire had begun to crumble.

:smokin

timvp, that was a very well thought-out proposal. I couldn't have laid it out better. I would do that deal. I also believe that Marshall would be a good replacement player for Robert Horry, the player I immediately thought of when pondering that possibility recently.

I'd do it, depending on the size of Marshall's contract of course.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

I think this is a good argument for getting an extension done. If the Spurs come with a strong offer to Nazr now they might be able to lock him in at a decent rate.

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Good point. If the Spurs aren't going to use him as trade bait, locking him up now is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

The Spurs faced one of the two other toughest frontcourts in the NBA in the Finals (Heat being the 3rd) and Nazr was next to worthless, whereas a finesse guy like Horry was quite useful.

Something to think about.

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7.6pts 9.0rebs 1.40blks in (27 mins) DEN
8.3pts 6.3rebs .67blks in (20 mins) SEA
4.9pts 6.0rebs .86blks in (22 mins) DET

ben wallace averaged 40mins 10.1pts 7.3rebs 3.0blks

...and if you can extend him for something less than Dampier money then you have two tradeable commodities at center.

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Originally Posted by timvp

I just don't think the Raptors are that smart. This is a team that picked Charlie Villanueva with the 7th overall pick this season and Rafeal Araujo 8th overall last season. Pete Babcock's brother doesn't know what he's doing.

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True. I wonder if Toronto got the two guys confused and thought they were hiring Pete? :lol That guy makes Chris Mullin and Isiah Thomas look like Jerry West.

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Originally Posted by constantstate

7.6pts 9.0rebs 1.40blks in (27 mins) DEN
8.3pts 6.3rebs .67blks in (20 mins) SEA
4.9pts 6.0rebs .86blks in (22 mins) DET

ben wallace averaged 40mins 10.1pts 7.3rebs 3.0blks

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Who got the bulk of the minutes up front other than TD? Pop's made some crazy moves from time to time but if Nazr was working against the Pistons he would've left him in.

Nazr's FG% was 43% in the Finals, almost a full 10% lower than his playoff average.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Austin

True. I wonder if Toronto got the two guys confused and thought they were hiring Pete? :lol That guy makes Chris Mullin and Isiah Thomas look like Jerry West.

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Actually, JWest isn't looking too hot nowadays. I guess it's harder to get players to want to go to Memphis than LA. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Who got the bulk of the minutes up front other than TD? Pop's made some crazy moves from time to time but if Nazr was working against the Pistons he would've left him in.

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i didnt see rasho out there. you said nazr was next to worthless, i disagree. i think he added alot to this team down the stretch. horry got the mins at power forward because duncan moved to center. (you know that) shorter rotation.

It was more than the shorter rotation. Nazr's offensive efficiency went down sharply against the Pistons. Too much pump faking and lack of any semblance of range on his shot. In addition the butterhands didn't help.

His opponent, Ben Wallace, shot 57% for the series.

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Originally Posted by timvp

I think if you asked the Spurs' coaching staff, they'd tell you that Mohammed's offensive rebounding is a bonus.

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Bonus or not, it seems pretty important to have somebody good on the offensive glass to give the offense additional chances, especially when we downshift from motion to four down. If shooters are cold, the additional opportunities and occasional putback an offensive rebounder can provide can be the difference in a game or series.

I think part of the equation here is the intangible of the NBA marketplace. I don't perceive the distance between Nazr and Rasho to be that significant. There are some things that Nazr does well that Rasho doesn't; there are some things that Rasho does well that Nazr doesn't. The Spurs won with Rasho last season and they won with Nazr. But there is, I'm sure, a perception in some corners that Nazr is much, much better than Rasho. That may be a perception held in some NBA front offices.

From a practical standpoint, In the long haul, Rasho's contract may end up being more palatable than whatever extension Nazr demands (unless he decides he's willing to do a Manu and take less-than-market to stay in a good spot). At this point, given contracts and perceptions, Nazr is decidedly the more marketable commodity and could arguably bring more in trade.

I just wonder about the wisdom of trading a young big (even one on the precipice of a huge next contract) for an older wing-type player. I think the idea works in a general sense, and I guess with this particular Big 3 being as young as they are, age in the ranks is not as big a concern as it was in, say, 2000 or 2001. Still, I don't think the Spurs are likely to carry 2 huge contracts for centers for very long, and it may be that even if they can peddle Rasho, they won't re-up with Nazr for any kind of crazy, Dampier-esque sums. I'd rather have one of those two than neither. But, if you're going to lose Nazr at the end of next season, it makes sense to me to get something you desire, a guy who will help your team, and look for another big body to play in the paint (like Scola). Marshall would fit that bill.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Nazr's FG% was 43% in the Finals, almost a full 10% lower than his playoff average.

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i agree with the butterhands. dude looked like a young malik out there. but i missed the part where they brought him in to score 30pts a game? (and called plays for him) because the guy i thought they brought in was to defend bigs... and rebound. he averaged one less board than wallace in 20 or so less mins.

if you're gonna give me ben wallace's FG average... then also bring up the fact that billups actually got into the paint and fed him with in 3ft of the hoop.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

It was more than the shorter rotation. Nazr's offensive efficiency went down sharply against the Pistons. Too much pump faking and lack of any semblance of range on his shot. In addition the butterhands didn't help.

His opponent, Ben Wallace, shot 57% for the series.

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again, didn't detroit make Snaq look like crap last year. Maybe we have to credit detroit and with time in the system I think Nazr will be better.

Also, locking him up does make sense.


you're putting to much weight on one series, especially for someone who joined the team after mid-season.

It's not the scoring average so much as it is converting the opportunities he got into points. He had a lot of chances for easy scores that he missed and against a top defense that was huge.

It's not like he's the focal point of the offense like Shaq was for the Lakers and Heat.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

It's not the scoring average so much as it is converting the opportunities he got into points. He had a lot of chances for easy scores that he missed and against a top defense that was huge.

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Only against detroit, that wasn't the case against Denver, Seattle, or Phoenix.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

It's not the scoring average so much as it is converting the opportunities he got into points. He had a lot of chances for easy scores that he missed and against a top defense that was huge.

It's not like he's the focal point of the offense like Shaq was for the Lakers and Heat.

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you want to quickly look up duncan's average in the finals for me? (please) as opposed to the rest of the playoffs?

Udonis Haslem shot 51% against Detroit in the ECF and 49% for the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Udonis Haslem shot 51% against Detroit in the ECF.

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I like Haslem, I have no idea why the Heat are letting him go. He's underrated.

let nazr get a full yr of spurs coaching and then offer trade ideas, obviously rasho has been here for few yrs and producing about the same as a guy that has been here for half of the season and a bit injured and if it wasnt for rasho/tim gettin hurt we would still be in darkness about nazr upside.

give nazr his chance, let alone he didnt do so well in finals but at times during the playoffs he carried us that alone deserves a chance. to be honest since that fake handoff dunk against seattle i knew this guys upside is much greater than DAMP and some of the weakass wanna be supestar center minus shaq.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Udonis Haslem shot 51% against Detroit in the ECF and 49% for the playoffs.

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uh huh. and what does that have to do with nazr? im just saying he did his job and he didnt exactly have alot of time to learn it. he wasnt worthless.

Haslem played up front with a star big man against Detroit and didn't struggle.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Haslem played up front with a star big man against Detroit and didn't struggle.

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and billups shot 41% in the efc SO that means damon jones is a better defender than parker... ok fine.

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Nazr was rather ineffective against a frontcourt that seemed suited to his game in the Finals.

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This is such a myth. Nazr's numbers were impacted proportionately to what Duncan's were going against the Wallace boys and McDyess.

But, such is the life of a big man not named Rose.

i like the trade idea... but doesnt anyone else feel like we could do/get more for either nazr or rasho? i think a trade for marshall would be excellent if we lost horry though. (and if we had to lose rasho or nazr than do it)

Tell me Nazr's market value, and I'll have a better reply.

I like the idea of a 2-headed beast at center in the form of Rasho and Nazr. Sacrificing depth at center might have us whooping it up over 4 titles in 9 years, instead of 4 in 8. I assume Horry remains on the Spurs.

I like the idea of Donyell, but with Horry on aboard, the rotation seems awkward.

The Spurs could get more bang for the buck keeping Nazr (and Rasho), and re-signing Glenn Robinson for Donyell type money.

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Originally Posted by Guru of Nothing

Tell me Nazr's market value, and I'll have a better reply.

I like the idea of a 2-headed beast at center in the form of Rasho and Nazr. Sacrificing depth at center might have us whooping it up over 4 titles in 9 years, instead of 4 in 8. I assume Horry remains on the Spurs.

I like the idea of Donyell, but with Horry on aboard, the rotation seems awkward.

The Spurs could get more bang for the buck keeping Nazr (and Rasho), and re-signing Glenn Robinson for Donyell type money.

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yes, but Robinson will not require anything close to Donyell money.

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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan

This is such a myth. Nazr's numbers were impacted proportionately to what Duncan's were going against the Wallace boys and McDyess.

But, such is the life of a big man not named Rose.

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Why did Haslem manage to bring it against them? Was that a "myth"?

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Why did Haslem manage to bring it against them? Was that a "myth"?

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Why didn't Kobe bring it against them last year, is he a myth? apples oranges comparison and has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

Shaq's numbers were down against Detroit. I guess he sucks too...

Everyone THOUGHT Nazr would have a huge series because they expected Detroit to double Tim. That happened the first 2-3 games of the Detroit series, and Nazr had good nights statistically.

Then Rasheed spoke up and said he wanted Tim one on one, and Ben focused on keeping Nazr off the glass.

There's worse crimes than having your rebounding numbers decrease by a whopping 1.5 per game when Ben Wallace decides to take you out of the equation on the glass.

For someone who rode Malik's jock so hard over his five boards a game, I figure you could at least give Nazr some credit.

The comparison is quite appropriate. Nazr had the benefit of playing alongside a star big against Detroit and he failed to bring it, unlike Haslem or Horry for that matter.

Oh good, AHF showed up with a whole lotta nuttin'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

The comparison is quite appropriate. Nazr had the benefit of playing alongside a star big against Detroit and he failed to bring it, unlike Haslem or Horry for that matter.

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.419% in 7 games... MVP of the finals.

so you're gonna say that a guy is worthless because he shoots .433 and grabs one less rebound than ben wallace... while only putting up over 4 shots a game?

haslem averaged 36 mins in the series... 8.7pts 8.3rebs .29blks

Again, TD was the focal point of the Pistons' interior D just like Shaq was the focal point when the Pistons played the Heat. Quoting TD's FG% means nothing. It's what the guys who are playng alongside the star big were doing that matters. Haslem's efficiency didn't take the hit that Nazr's did. Why? Part of it has to do with the fact that Haslem has something that looks like a jumper. It also has something to do with the fact that Haslem doesn't try 50 million pumpfakes before going to the hole.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

The comparison is quite appropriate. Nazr had the benefit of playing alongside a star big against Detroit and he failed to bring it, unlike Haslem or Horry for that matter.

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guy had one mediocre series, relax. He was fantastic until detroit doesn't that count for anything? Give him one full year in the system. Horry sucked against LA last year and what did it mean, absolutely nothing.

The Pistons actually doubled Shaq. Nazr didn't get the same benefit from the Pistons defense after game 2.

You want to give the man seventy million dollars when he can't bring it against a frontcourt custom built for him to show his worth?

The Pistons weren't that charitable with TD. They collapsed on him just the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark in Austin

........I think it comes down to offensive rebounds vs. spacing. I don't think the +/- arguement works for me. The +/- numbers when Horry is in are high primarily because he is fucking clutch and is a smart player, not because of the spacing he provides. Plus, spacing doesn't help if you can't knock down shots. It's easier to hit meaningless shots in toronto midseason than it is playing for a contending team in crunchtime.

I also wonder how badly the Spurs would miss the offensive rebounds Mohammed provided. timvp, I think you said in another thread that you watched every playoff game at least three times. My question to you is, without Mohammed's offensive rebounding and garbage buckets, would the Spurs have won? Offensive rebounding was a weakness that the Rose trade addressed.

...

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When you compare Nazr's offensive rebounds with Rasho's don't forget to add in the 2 or 3 OReb per game that Rasho bats out to the guards and doesn't get a stat for.

I remember more than one game this year where Rasho saved our ass by batting out rebounds in the 4th quarter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

You want to give the man seventy million dollars when he can't bring it against a frontcourt custom built for him to show his worth?

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the defending champs that consistently kicked the crap out of snaq is custom built for Nazr?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Again, TD was the focal point of the Pistons' interior D just like Shaq was the focal point when the Pistons played the Heat. Quoting TD's FG% means nothing. It's what the guys who are playng alongside the star big were doing that matters. Haslem's efficiency didn't take the hit that Nazr's did. Why? Part of it has to do with the fact that Haslem has something that looks like a jumper. It also has something to do with the fact that Haslem doesn't try 50 million pumpfakes before going to the hole.

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he averaged 4 shots a game. no plays are run through him. he did look a little shaky at times with the ball, but i didnt see anyone in a rush to put rasho out there? and lastly, horry was going to get his time at power forward, and duncan was going to get his at center. (because of the rotations)

if it was the guys playing along side the big star that counts... we would have faced miami instead of detroit in the finals (according to you)

Yes, when your teammate is Tim Duncan.

Mohammad is way to valuable to give for a person who doesn't play defense in Marshall. I would not do this trade. Mohammad is a big improvement over Nesterovic.

Who said anything about 70 million? You're the only one I've seen trumpet that number for Mohammed, quit arguing with yourself.

You know, I was thinking maybe you had a point about Haslem, but then I checked the stats...

haslem: 7 games, 36 minutes, .511 FG, 8.3 RPG, .86 TO/Game, .29 BPG, 8.7 PPG

nazr: 7 games, 22.6 minutes per game, .433 FG, 6 RPG, 4.9 PPG, .86 BPG, .71 TO/Game

So your boy Haslem played 15 minutes more per game, managed just two more rebounds per game (and four more PPG - two offensive putbacks), but was tripled up in the blocked shots department and had a higher TO average.

Yes, Haslem sure took advantage of that Detroit front court :lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by constantstate

he averaged 4 shots a game. no plays are run through him. he did look a little shaky at times with the ball, but i didnt see anyone in a rush to put rasho out there? and lastly, horry was going to get his time at power forward, and duncan was going to get his at center. (because of the rotations)

if it was the guys playing along side the big star that counts... we would have faced miami instead of detroit in the finals (according to you)

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How many plays were run for Haslem?

Look at the FG%, AHF. We are discussing efficiency here. With regards to TOs, how many did the Spurs' guards get hit with due to Nazr's stone hands?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

How many plays were run for Haslem?

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about as many more mins worth as he was out there...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by constantstate

about as many more mins worth as he was out there...

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Ha.

How many more minutes did Haslem get to play?

What was the disparity in rebounds and blocked shots, the two things the Spurs ask from their center?

STFU, chump.

Would Marshall inherit all the hate Nazr gets from the Malik-lovers? It would only be fair.

Wow, 43% to 51%, when the two guys combined for 12 shots a game.

Look out!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan

How many more minutes did Haslem get to play?

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Haslem played more minutes and shot a higher shooting %. That's not a negative, kiddo.

Quote:

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What was the disparity in rebounds and blocked shots, the two things the Spurs ask from their center?

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Nazr gave that up at the other end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan

Wow, 43% to 51%, when the two guys combined for 12 shots a game.

Look out!

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Nazr's poor play led to him riding the pine. Deal with it.

As opposed to Haslem, who got to play out of necessity. Right.

Wow, FG%. Big fucking whoop. Nazr took 4 shots a game, Haslem 8. That's obviously indicative of a big difference in the effectiveness of a player.

Fuck, Tony took way more shots than Manu did, and I'm just waiting for your next parker for Kidd rant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Nazr's poor play led to him riding the pine. Deal with it.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Ha.

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you're acting crazy. dont look at shaq's fg% or duncan's against det... just look as haslem's and nazr's. its what the teammates of the big stars do!

nazr did his job pretty good... and i didnt see anyone putting in rasho. yeah he could have looked better out there, but duncan could've too... and if nazr would have played more (like haslem) he would have gotten more chances. look at his numbers for the SEA and DEN series. but he wouldnt have gotten more mins... because we WANTED horry and duncan out there.

shaq only averaged 33mins in the ECF. wanna look up duncan's and horry's mins?

It is fairly significant considering that he shot 43% with most of his scoring opportunities coming within 3 feet of the basket.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan

Who said anything about 70 million? You're the only one I've seen trumpet that number for Mohammed, quit arguing with yourself.

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Someone didn't read the initial post in this thread.

I would take the better defender anyday. Nazr will be around for a while, count on that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

It is fairly significant considering that he shot 43% with most of his scoring opportunities coming within 3 feet of the basket.

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with 4 shots a game?

.419% in 7 games... MVP of the finals.
.592% in 7 games... ECF loser.

So far there has been:
A trade Tim thread
A trade Rasho thread
A trade Nazr thread
A trade Tony thread

I'd like to see someone make a trade Manu thread and see who might we possibly get for him. Mcgrady? Or perhaps Peja or Rip or maybe even Artest?

i say lock nazr up for 3-4 years by then their draft pick from this year will give them more then good minutes his game is very similar to nazr's, also on sign marshall if horry goes

I don't see Horry going anywhere, so Marshall isn't coming to town. Horry knows when to leech on to a champion's tit and he has a nice tit to suck on now.