Tim Duncan is not for this series...

The numbers from the GS series backs me up. This is why Manu Ginobili is so underrated especially in his prime.

He is extremely tall for a 2 guard so he never gets posted. He's yet quick enough to move around on defense. He can shoot and he can create and he can handle.

Charlie Sheen let me apply some simple logic for you.

How would a team with 5 Tony Parkers do? What about a team with 5 Tim Duncans? What about a team with 5 Kawhi Leonards? Which team wins? Kawhi's would dominate in today's NBA. Why would the other teams lose? cause Tony Parker can't defend the post and Tim Duncan cannot defend the perimeter. Obviously both have offensive shortfalls such as Tim Duncan can't shoot threes or handle / Tony Parker can't post up. But when you are on offense, your team has the ball so you can play to your strengths.

HOWEVER, when you are on defense, the other team will OF COURSE TRY TO EXPLOIT YOUR WEAKNESSES. ADVANCED STATS of today's world will constantly scan for an opposing teams weakness. And they will try to get Tim Duncan playing defense on the perimeter and try to have Tony Parker play defense in the post. As this trend grows, teams with players such as a Steve Nash or a Dwight Howard will get EXPOSED HARD.

So yeah the Spurs are flawed and Tiago isn't the perfect player either blah blah but it's irrefutable that Tiago is a better defender than Tim Duncan. And you can't be old school and look at who can hold their position in the post stronger or who can box out harder. It's all about minimizing the other team's ability to exploit you.

Look at who is left in the playoffs? Blend teams. Why do people anecdotally say you cannot win a championship with a PG? Why do people anecdotally say the Center position is not as important as it was in the 70's. (SHOOTING SKILLS FROM 3 WERE FAR LOWER BACK THEN! SO BETTER TO POST UP!)

teams with a Ricky Rubio, Chris Paul are flashy and cute but can't win. Basketball isn't about if you can defend your position anymore. I don't only care that Duncan is the best defender of other power forwards / centers. If you're a point guard, I don't only care if you are a good defender of point guards.

It's about cross defending. In a league where teams exploit mismatches. It's about how well can Dwight Howard defend Tony Parker not how well he can defend Tim Duncan.

Offenses have become far more intelligent. So if I'm the Spurs, I acquire as many Kawhi's as possible. Hence great trade of them to get rid of GHill for Kawhi. We need 3 of those types on the floor at the same time.

Tiago is more mobile and is thus a better pick and roll defender than Timmy is. We've known this all season and have been raving about Tiago's pick and roll game (on both ends) all season. Nothing new here

As that 4th quarter was imploding, and Parker waved off Pop's substitution... and then proceeded to miss 2 more shots and GS closed the gap,

my friends and I were up in arms to pull Parker..

What did Pop do, He sat Duncan and inserted Splitter.

At the time I was a little baffled, but it became clear.

Duncan was half hearted with his movements, no conviction on his offensive attacks, and on defense he was hesitant and late to shooters and help so many times.. he was messing up the feng shui of the motion offense, it almost seemed like he was rattled, especially with that pass to nobody?

I love Duncan as much as anyone who has been watching the Spurs since '96... but Pop made the right decision to win the game, and Duncan simply accepted what Pop thought was best.

This thread starter had valid points that were reinforced clearly in that game 6... It doesn't mean Duncan is any less of all time Great or diminished his accomplishments for his career.

But if Duncan closed out that game, I believe Spurs would have lost for certain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charlie Sheen

Apparently you're unfamiliar with the concept of sample size.



He sure has been shooting well lately.



No, even though there is no logic at all here, you are completely wrong. The team of 5 Tim Duncan's would destroy 5 Parker's or 5 Leonard's. They aren't half the complete players that Tim is.



That's fine. You can shoot a bunch of perimeter jumpers while I am lambasting you in the paint with high percentage shots. Idiot.



ROFL Yeah, Tiago Splitter... DPOY candidate over here. Tim just can't compete with that.

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Really, you think 5 37 year old Tim Duncans can get the ball over half court and run up and down to cover 5 Kawhi's? LOL good luck even getting it to the post.

And you are wrong about the "High Percentage" inside shot.

Post up players shoot about 55% at best. The differential between the 3 point shot and the 2 point shot and with the way the league is going where players are getting to 40, 45% shooting from 3, the post up is no longer high percentage. And when I say exploit Tim Duncan, I don't mean shooting perimeter Jumpers. I mean blowing by Tim Duncan after you get the switch, then forcing you to give me a HIGH PERCENTAGE LAYUP / FLOATER/ if you help, I kick out for wide open 3's. SO YOU ARE WRONG.

MIKE D'ANTONI KNEW FULL WELL THE STRATEGY AGAINS THE SPURS WAS NOT THE POST UP BUT HE TROLLED ALL LAKER FANS AND LISTENED TO THEM.

In postups, it might be high percentage when you do get your shot off, but 1) A teammate has to post feed the ball into you. Potential turnover. 2) Liable to double teams and this is not a point guard you are doubling with great hands. It's usually a Dwight Howard. Again more turnovers 3) In the case you get fouled, you have a less efficient foul shooter on the line. 4) A 2 point is worth only 66.67% of the points of a 3. 5) Your best rebounder is the one shooting with the rest of your team spread out on the 3 point line so chances of offensive rebounding is far lower.

Lol @ the above.

I wasn't talking about 5 Duncans vs. 5 Kawhi's after my first point.

My entire section about the post up shot not being high percentage was in reference to today's NBA. And no. Today's duncan even if you had him against Kawhi would not shoot any higher than 55% in the post without factoring in help defense. If it was true, why would teams have a LeBron, Kawhi, George, Durant, Melo guarding any post players? By your logic, Yao should have shot more than 55% in the post since he's always 8 inches taller. There is a limit to how good you can shot in the post with any sort of decent defense. And Kawhi is decent in the post. Certainly I'm not advocating you have Kawhi at center. I'm just saying in a very crude example, 5 Kawhi's better than 5 Duncans in a full court game of NBA that's undeniable. Today's game is about Versatility. Kawhi can guard 4 positions really well and below average guarding centers. Duncan can guard 2 positions really well (exceptionally well. DPOY candidate etc) but the other 3 really poorly. So teams will not have Bogut post Duncan. They would be stupid. They will try to force a switch where Duncan defends a Curry, Jack, Thompson. So the more a team does this, the worse Duncan's defense gets. GET IT?

Please try a different rebuttal to justify 'feeding the post' as a viable strategy. Now lets talk about your SHAQ/DUNCAN/GASOL/BYNUM BS. 1) Shaq. That's 10 years ago. Not today's NBA. Back then you could still sorta hand check to stop perimeter players. What's really happened since? In 2011, it was Dirk. In 2012 it was Bosh. Mobile / Shooting. 2) BYNUM? LOL Lakers were better with a Gasol / Lamar combo for those championships. 3) Gasol in 09/10 was a rich man's Splitter. So proves my point right there about mobility and pick and rolls.

So let's see, 09, 10, 11, 12.....where am I wrong about TODAY's NBA needing players to be much more versatile at ALL POSITIONS on both OFFENSE (stretching the floor, rolling off picks) and DEFENSE (pick and roll defense, guarding the post and the perimeter, ability to help and recover).

- Duncan had the 3rd highest defensive RAPM this season among big men, only trailing Garnett and Marc Gasol by a slim margin..

- The Warriors ran a dominant pick&roll game in the playoffs, they adjusted their style of play once Lee went out..

The Warriors ran pick&roll for Curry 30 times per game during the playoffs, 12 more than during the regular season..they used the pick&roll to switch Curry against a big and force the opposing D into disarray..

Duncan isn't a great pick&roll defender at this age, obviously, but why did the Nuggets struggle against the Warriors pick&roll attack?..

According to OP's logic, the Nuggets fit the criteria of "today's NBA"..Iguodala, Brewer and Wilson Chandler are all long and athletic..even their bigs, McGee and Faried, are super athletes..

They struggled because Curry is now the premiere pick&roll scorer in today's NBA..

The OP is correct that Duncan would have trouble in this series, but it doesn't have anything to do with a "new NBA" or Duncan no longer being starter material(:lol)..the Warriors are one of 2 or 3 teams that Duncan becomes a defensive liability against..

Although Tiago deserves credit, using Splitter as an example is a flawed argument, as Curry was fatigued at that point..

- Bogut is arguably the best Duncan defender of all-time, tbh, even during Tim's prime..off the top of my head, only Rasheed Wallace was better at it..

- The Grizzlies are in the WCF, running an offense that doesn't fit the OP's criteria..they don't have scary pick&roll threats, they don't have shooters..Duncan's defense is essential in this series, as it has been all year..

- Duncan having a great series is the only chance the Spurs would have against the Heat..his numbers haven't been great in the playoffs, but he's been against Dwight Howard, Andrew Bogut and now Marc Gasol..those are 3 elite defensive bigs..

Duncan could struggle against Bosh's shot, but the Spurs would absolutely need him to dominate on offense, especially since Splitter can't create and Diaw is too passive..not to mention they have defenders to throw at Parker and Ginobili..

The Spurs would be content with Duncan allowing Lebron to take the jump shot, that's always the game plan against Miami, even with Lebron's improved shot..you would always rather take away his driving ability..it wouldn't be anything like defending Curry on the pick&roll:lol..

Agreed. Memphis is as ideal a series for Duncan as you can get. I expect him to be great in this series. I think he will hold his own.

Yes he needs to punish the Heat inside, but I don't like the Spurs playing that strategy. The Heat's man defense on Parker and Ginobili is precisely why you need Splitter and Diaw to set picks and roll / move / swing the ball to get LeBron / Wade off of Ginobili and not allow a trap on the pick and roll. Duncan setting the pick will lead to Manu and Tony getting crushed and swarmed. Duncan's pick and pop shot is slow enough to get back to / not efficient enough. And Duncan can't roll off a pick.

MEMPHIS IS DUNCAN's SERIES.

The Spurs wouldn't have beat the Warriors without Duncan. Everytime Duncan went to the bench with a Spurs lead, the Warriors closed the gap. Last night's 4th quarter benching was an anomaly in the series.

Sure Denver wasn't successful ultimately but did anyone expect them to be 3rd seed? That's my point. They got the 3rd seed in the West with players that aren't perceived to be all that good! Wilson Chandler? Corey Brewer? Andre Iguodala as your main guy? These guys are undervalued. Kawhi / Green / Butler / George etc.

The Warriors turned out better without David Lee. The Spurs at this point in Duncan's career would be better against GS and Miami with him in a limited roll but not against Memphis.

But the Spurs are 100% better with Manu even if he shoots 1/6 like last night. NBA offenses are not about going to your strengths anymore. "I got a great big guy in Dwight. Let me post him". "I got the best scorer in the league in Durant / Carmelo. Let's feed him the ball and let him work one on one". The best NBA offenses is about how good you are at exploiting the other team's weakest defensive point. There's 2 components to this. 1) Having the most versatile roster so that you have the raw individual talent to exploit the other team in various ways. 2) HAVING SUPER HIGH IQ PLAYERS WHO CAN DETECT DEFENSIVE WEAKPOINTS. Manu, Diaw, Tiago fit this mold.

The term ability to "create offense" if you want to win games is not about crossing someone or creating a shot. It's about are you smart enough and able to find that weak point shot for your teammate. Manu is the best at this in the league. No wonder his +/- was 50.

lol