Is one stupid coach lol. Keeping hibbert out with the game on the line, the logic is get beat by a contested jumpshot not a wide open layup smh. Makes me really appreciate pop with all his flaws.
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Is one stupid coach lol. Keeping hibbert out with the game on the line, the logic is get beat by a contested jumpshot not a wide open layup smh. Makes me really appreciate pop with all his flaws.
according to HarlemHeat Vogel is the best coach in the league :lmao :lmao
Man, Pop would never take his best big man out late in the game.
Vogel is a good coach, but he was completely anti-clutch tonight. He made the wrong call in almost every situation down the stretch. Paul George kept the game alive twice after Vogel and Hill tried to fumble it away.
You didn't see Vogel rip open his shirt and reveal a Miami Heat jersey underneath? You never give up a layup in that situation, let Lebron shoot a jumpshot
Frank Vogel: "I would say we would probably have [Hibbert] in next time."
Pacers aren't ready for the big time yet. Lots of stupid mistakes and mental errors.
Yeah, next time being next season.Quote:
Originally Posted by LakerHater
I'm wondering how former Spur Paul George let Lebron have such an easy path to the basket tbh..
It was bad enough he pulled Hibbert once. He must be the only person on the planet that thinks Roy is better on offense than defense. With that little time left, you have to have your 7 footer out there to at least guard against the lob. Sad that Indiana's players were pretty clutch down the stretch, but their coach choked big time.
Indiana wins game 2.
This was the game they absolutely had to win, though. It's asking too much for them to win 4 more after blowing this one. This will be a tough series for the Heat but this giveway has cinched another Finals appearance for the Heat, tbh. And you best believe the refs willl give more calls to the Heat as the series goes further.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironman2886
:lmao :lmao :lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by chapnis
Bonner >>>> Hibbert
Indiana matches up well with Miami. The turnovers screwed them. I just think they steal game 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpurPadre
Just 1 mistake early in what should be a very long coaching career.
They could've already stole game 1 and fight for another steal in game 2. I was so disappointed with the outcome. Heck, even Hibbert knew he should be playing that last defensive sequence. Vogel threw the game!Quote:
Originally Posted by ironman2886
Not to mention he continually drew up plays out of time outs for David West in the 4th qtr and OT when he was literally ice cold and Paul George was finally playing well. Vogel gets a big fat F for this game. Terrible.
What a fucking twat to not have Roy Hibbert out there to anchor their defense.
Fucking twat of a coach. I cannot believe he would take out Hibbert twice in critical defensive situations.
Even though Paul George made a bad defensive play on that last possession, you still gotta have you last line of defense and RIM protector out there.
I'm just stunned at Vogel's stupidity.
Or the conspiracy theorist would say it wasn't stupidity but just being bought off by Stern. Sorry, I couldn't help it. Otherwise, could a coach possibly be that stupid at THIS point in the playoffs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice009
He's still very young. I'm sure he learned his lesson. Pop makes mistakes still. *shrug*
I literally had the WTF face after those two plays. I mean Paul George made a mental mistake, but Vogel was atrocious late in the game.
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by chapnis
According to his logic in the post game interview, he thought he'd rather concede an open lane to the best player in the game, than have Chris Bosh shoot a jump shot... Inexcusable
Well he really tOok a step back with that blunder lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by hater
Vogel only needs to do it for two or three more playoff failures and then he can be the best coach in the NBA. :pop:
Pop won, decision was some kind brilliant, tbhQuote:
Originally Posted by chapnis
Read in blue tbhQuote:
Originally Posted by Mal
I see what you did there lolQuote:
Originally Posted by DJR210
Yes, giving away big leads in the fourth quarter of playoff games is fine as long as you are 2-1 with one win in overtime. What a victorious strategy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
He gets a "big fat F" for taking a better Heat team to overtime?Quote:
Originally Posted by BatManu20
He made some questionable moves during the game, but he also did a great job game-planning and preparing for the matchup. I also think he did a good job with rotations considering Hibbert and West had 4 fouls in the 3rd quarter.
I hope the Spurs coaches are paying attention to this as an example of how NOT to play against the Heat.
Taking a better team, who you have a winning record against in the regular season, on the road, in the playoffs, to overtime when you lose doing stupid shit? Yeah, you deserve an F.
I think this Game 1 outcome will significantly dampen the Pacers' spirits. This is why I think Miami will win Game 2 and ultimately win the series in 5 games. Had the Pacers won last night it could have gone to 7 games.
Preach to the choir lol. I fully agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by Ice009
Yes, because the outcome of a regular season series is always the best indicator of how two teams will matchup in the playoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
The Spurs and the Warriors split.
Gives me all the confidence that the spurs will beat miami. Miami struggles with good interior players point blank period and the spurs are disciplined enough to execute down the stretch, add to the fact that pop will never reach the level of stupidity vogel reached last night. If the pacers aren't broken by game 1 and commits less turnovers its goin 6 or 7
I literally have no response to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by _JaG
I was refering to game 6 vs Warriors, when Pop sat Duncan intentionally in last mintues of the game and played smallball with Splitter at C.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
I have no idea what that means.Quote:
Originally Posted by polandprzem
Yep. The Spurs went small, jacked up a lot of threes instead of trying to score inside or draw fouls, and happened to hit enough to win that game. I was referring to when they did it two other times so far in these playoffs; once a loss against the Warriors, and one where they gave up an 18 point lead and had to win in overtime at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
Timmy sitting all that time with 5 fouls ensured he was fresh in OT, and as we all saw, that was the difference.
Probably not the way Pop originally planned it, but a win is a win. 2-0, 'nuff said.
It's great to have three full days off before Game 3 in Memphis, too.
WCF game 2 was diffrent. Duncan wasnt benched intentionally. He had foul trouble. Spurs played good, but missed open shots. When he come back, Spurs still were missing shots. But he was fresh for OT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
Ok?Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
Vogel made some poor decisions down the stretch and it probably cost them the game. But his pre-game preparation and strategizing put his team in a position to win that game. There are areas in his coaching he can improve, but overall he's a very good coach.
When you are playing a superior team, you can't afford coaching mistakes or the amount of turnovers the Pacers had. The turnovers are the real reason they lost, not Vogel.
If you disagree that the Heat are a superior team, you're retarded.
Duncan was in the game, he was just in with Bonner and not Splitter. That's not foul trouble, tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
That means Obstructed is playing with you. Not planned but okay :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
He is just being ironic.
Wow, you just ... can't read or something. I said the Heat were a better team, but Indiana had a winning record against them because they played their strengths, like Roy Hibbert. When a coach has a chance to win a game against a better team on the road, and they lose because he goes away from his team's strength, especially when that strength has been the one thing to bother said better team all season long, he deserves the blame.Quote:
Originally Posted by _JaG
Hey, don't look at me. I had nothing to do with that exchange.Quote:
Originally Posted by polandprzem
I'm not looking tbh
Little bit different situation:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
* Duncan actually was getting torn apart in that 4thQ by PnR, Splitter was defending much better. He didn't sit Duncan based upon matchups, he sat Duncan and rode Splitter based upon the results that were unfolding. Vogel made the adjustment based upon what MIGHT happen with an extra shooter surrounding Lebron.
* Vogel got a clear as day preview of what would happen on the previous play without Hibbert in the game, and then continued to pocket his shotblocker AGAIN. He overbought George's ability to defend Lebron during regulation & OT - not realizing it was the help defense behind him that deterred Lebron from driving the rim at will.
* Spoelstra (smartly - he's not an amazing coach, but underrated sometimes) surrounded Lebron with shooters to entice Vogel to pull Hibbert and open up the rim for LBJ. If you're a coach in the NBA, you should strongly consider NOT doing what the opponent WANTS you to do.
Some Vogel apologists have pointed out that there was no one for Hibbert to guard without giving up a jumper. 1) With Wade out, that shot was clearly drawn up from Lebron. 2) Put Roy on Bosh shading towards the paint. I'd live with a Bosh 20 foot jumper vs. a Lebron layup every single play. 3) You could zone them and camp Hibbert under the rim, ensuring that it takes a jumper to beat you. Impossible to pick up defensive 3 second call with only 2.2 remaining. 4) Have Hibbert "guard" Norris Cole by not guarding him at all and doubling Lebron. The odds that Cole would take & make a shot in that situation are much closer to none than slim. Odds that Lebron even sees him as a legitimate option to pass the ball to within 2.2 seconds isn't much higher.
Vogel overthought it. He put out the defense most capable of guarding EVERYTHING, but also more likely to give up a high percentage shot. You play your shotblocker, you're giving Miami an opening somewhere, but it's going to be a much lower percentage play than what happened.
Remember, it's not so simple as just anchoring the defense. If Hibbert is on the floor for that last possession, he's either chasing Bosh around the perimeter or camping out in the paint and leaving Bosh wide open. Every man on the floor for the Heat on that play was a shooter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice009
Vogel must step up and Indy got to win game 2, and if they do fairly easy, they are favorites to win this shit
There was 2.2 seconds left. Anyone on the arena knows Spo was going to draw a play going to the basket down 1. You have to leave your rim protector on the court. Vogel is a good coach, he just made a mistake (or several mistakes) in crunch time. He'll learn from itQuote:
Originally Posted by tesseractive
I didn't say Vogel was the best coach, but he's easily top 5, tbh, he runs a very good system with limited personnel..
- No star shot creators(Paul George has trouble creating his own shot consistently, West isn't a star, Hibbert's post game is mediocre)
- poor shooters(22nd in the NBA in 3-point %)
- poor ball-handlers(they don't have any reliable ball-handlers on the roster)
- One of the worst benches in the NBA
Yet they have had deep playoff runs in consecutive years and nearly beat Miami in game 1 in OT..
He made 2 horrible decisions, he deserves blame, but :lol at all the casual fans that don't know dick about the NBA questioning his ability as a coach, tbh..he's young, he's still learning..
Even the best coaches make errors, obviously..Pop is the best coach in the NBA, yet he spent like 4 years overplaying Matt Bonner, not just for individual key possessions, but for entire seasons(one example)..
I'm not saying Hibbert shouldn't have been on the court, but if Hibbert really were in there just defending the rim instead of covering his man, I'm thinking the Heat would have been happy to have any guy they had on the floor take a wide-open jumper. Then we'd be spending today talking about the defensive breakdown that left Bosh/Allen/Battier wide open for the game winner.Quote:
Originally Posted by hommeaetage
Exactly! And putting Finley/ Udoka on Dirk or Lamar Odom :bangQuote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
With 2.2 seconds left on the clock, the chances of LeBron passing the ball diminished. Even if he would be willing to pass it, that would have been a rushed shot. I can live with anyone else taking a jumpshot (even MJ or Kobe), but I'm not giving a wide open layup at this point of the gameQuote:
Originally Posted by tesseractive
And the Bruce Bowen decision against Kobe in game 1/2008..
Every great coach makes egregious mistakes, tbh..
Vogel is getting blasted more than usual because it was against Miami and all non-Heat fans are obviously cheering against them..
The Heat could have engineered motion on an inbounds play that would have required Hibbert to choose between being in position to defend the paint and staying with his shooter on the inbounds pass -- in that scenario, LeBron doesn't have to catch and then pass to the open man, the inbounds pass would get it done.Quote:
Originally Posted by hommeaetage
If LeBron catches ball outside 3pt line, he has no time to pass. He barely made that layup in time. Bounce pass to Bosh would be way too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseractive
So Spurs` best big men was in the game. Pacers` wasnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
No. When Duncan was sitting Bonner was on the floor with Splitter. When Duncan came back in, he replaced Splitter and not Bonner. Duncan and Splitter didn't play together until overtime. The reason Splitter and Duncan weren't playing together was NOT because Duncan was in foul trouble, it's because Pop wanted to play Bonner. Period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
That was Pop fault, and you are right. I also posted something similar to your observation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by chapnis
Pacers are not ready. So many defensive mistakes. I like their balance and talent overall however, George Hill lacks balls still... and they don't know what help defense is.
This tbh, Pop refuses to play our best defensive lineupQuote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
That's not what I'm saying though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
1. Vogel puts in Hibbert.
2. Spo has whoever Hibbert's covering (let's say Bosh) racing around for an open shot at the elbow (or the 3 point line, if he's not covering Bosh).
3a. If Hibbert stays with Bosh, Hibbert doesn't have time to recover and affect LeBron's drive.
3b. If Hibbert leaves Bosh ahead of the inbounds pass to cover the paint, Bosh has an uncontested shot at the elbow. The inbounds pass goes straight to Bosh and LeBron is just a decoy.
Even worse is if the Heat run some screens ahead of the inbounds and the Pacers switch, leaving Hibbert trying to keep up with Wade or Allen. Good luck with that. (And if the Pacers don't switch on screens, that creates more room for an open catch and shoot.)
You could defend no putting Hibbert on Bosh and you did it. But you should put Hibbert on inbounder. He`s big, inbounder wouldnt see light underneath him.Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseractive
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseractive
What are the chances of Hibbert leaving the paint chasing Bosh though?
With 2.2 seconds to go, the Pacers should have simply crowded around the paint. Don't even bother guarding outside shooters. If a Heat player were to be left wide open for a jumper, so be it. It's 2.2 seconds we're talking about. Perhaps 50% odds of a basket being made.
Contrast that to the 90% likelihood of a largely uncontested layup resulting in a basket.
I bet if you totaled up every play in the NBA over the last ten years with the game on the line and 2.2 seconds on the clock, 90% of them are catch and shoots, because most players can't catch and drive in that amount of time and still get a shot off. Why on earth would you give anyone an open jumper?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurs and Mavs fan
That's a really good idea, actually. Only reason I can think of is that they wanted someone who could react more quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
If he doesn't, Bosh gets the inbounds pass and the Pacers are giftwrapping an open jumper for an elite midrange shooter. That's roughly as bad as a team deciding not to bother to cover Duncan or Parker at the elbow.Quote:
Originally Posted by hommeaetage
That really was an awful decision by Vogel. Everything about it. They didn't even pack the paint. . .it was so obvious that LeBron would drive if he had a clear lane. 2.2 seconds is PLENTY of time to catch, drive, and lay the ball up.
At worst pack the paint force someone into a damn jumper. At best they shoot 45-50% on a jumper (less if contested). Layups are like 75-80%. Possibly a series-losing decision by Vogel.
Good point. PJ liked to do that. Put a long player on the inbounder to make his pass more difficult which makes it easier to get picked off. I think he did it twice to the Nuggets when they met in WCF in '09. I think it emphasizes the point that the best coaching happens when you are dictating the action more than reacting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
One thing I am not sure of as far as the rules go......does the defensive team have to cover the guy inbounding the ball in those situations?
If the answer is no, I would have left the inbounder wide open (as long as the inbounder wasn't Ray Allen), doubled Lebron, single covered everyone else, and left Hibbert all alone to protect the paint.
blue text means troll fishing by way of sarcasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
and i do suggest you watch that game again. tim was out of whack.
no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggems
you haven't heard the phrase "the inbounder is the most dangerous player on the court", have you?
apparently bosh jumpshot>>>>lebron layup.
i'm flabbergasted.
Would be tricky for a team to inbound and then pass back to the inbounder and have the inbounder take a good look and shot, all in 2.2. seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by m33p0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurs and Mavs fan
you get the added bonus of the guy "stepping-into" the motion of taking a shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggems
To be fair to Pop, Duncan and Tiago played all of overtime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brunodf
you still never answered the original question.......instead all you gave was a silly reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by m33p0
btw, you dont tip your hand until the referee hands the inbounder the ball, then the guy backs off and runs to help defend Lebron. If that doesnt work for you, then simply put Hibbert on the inbounder. Have him use his size and wingspan to be as disruptive as possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurs and Mavs fan
would you leave a guy inbounding the ball unattended? you'll give him a whole range of options. and the ball can always go back to him for an open jumper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggems
Well, hey, look at that! Hibbert stays in, Lebron can't drive.
That had more to do with George staying in front of him, just like George NOT being in front of him is the reason he DID score in game 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
they got it right the second time around.
:lol hm, only Vogel would do this, he must be an idiot, right?..
Something that Pop doesn't manage to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by m33p0