http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...rounding-draft
Printable View
Yea trying to create cap space for a run at Dwight and/or CP3.
Gary Neal and #28 for #17?
I would trade next year pick to them for this one and cash
but for who at 13?
Agreed. I'd love to try and get Steven Adams from Pitt. He's probably going to go in that 10-13 range. He'd be a future piece though, not an immediate contributor.Quote:
Originally Posted by ducks
Target Steven Adams or Shabazz Muhammed who is supposedly slipping down draft boards. Hell I'd even take Mason Plumlee.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoldStandard
13th pick sounds awesome.
Until you consider that part of the reason that Dallas is keen on moving their first lottery pick in over a decade is because this is a shit draft with little to no immediate help available outside of 6 or 7 guys (who are pretty big risks themselves).
The guys who make most sense for Spurs are complete role players or draft-in-stash guys that will typically last into the 20s anyways (if not all the way to 28).
if the spurs can get that high of a pick. i love gobert!
I don't know if Shabazz Muhammad fits a Spurs kind of guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by BatManu20
I don't think we can get that pick. We don't have enough to offer them. Too many guys are coming off the books or are unrestricted free agents.
They're going to want a high quality role player or a halfway decent starter (either one having to be young/low salary) for that pick. It's too valuble. After all, we had to trade George Hill to get the 15th pick.
High draft picks in the NBA are super valuble, especially when you're trading down all the way to 28 in exchange for it.
Gotta get the best SG available IMO.
Exactly why we don't want this because we need help NOW. If it limits our ability to get an impact free agent forget it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BatManu20
If they're dumping salary to clear cap space, they aren't going to want players or this year's first round picks back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted_Dawg
If I were the Mavs, I'd be looking for one or more of these back:
* a likely lottery team willing to trade next year's pick (i.e not the Spurs)
* high second round picks this year, who don't count against the cap (we don't have one AFAIK)
* the rights to foreign players that they really like (hard to say if they want what we have)
* multiple future first round picks from good teams who draft late (trading 2 for 1 isn't worth it unless there's someone truly incredible)
Dallas is trying to give away to the pick in exchange for salary relief. They don't want a quality player unless the team is willing to take back Shawn Marion's deal. What's more likely is that Dallas will try to package it with Carter and some other small contracts in exchange for a second-rounder or future pick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
Shabazz Muhammad.. but I don't think the Spurs would take him. He's had some character questions over the past couple years. He'd be a great replacement for Manu though. He's basically a poor man's James Harden.Quote:
Originally Posted by DJR210
So they're packaging their pick with a moderate to high salary player to salary dump? Okay, then I guess that makes more sense as long as it's just them trading Marion and the pick for an expiring deal and a not too shitty pick. That's basically "here we'll sell you our pick for 10m, and let's swap dudes neither of us really want anymore". Makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
I dunno about that Carter + pick and a small contract in exchange for a second rounder or future pick thing. Carter only gets 3m a year. So that deal is basically, "here take my 13th pick, Carter at only 3.1 million, and whatever for your 2nd rounder and maybe a scrub". That makes no sense. They'd just be giving away a lot for next to no cap relief. They don't need to trade their pick to unload Carter's small salary. 3m for Carter is very reasonable. Many teams would trade a 2nd rounder for Carter straight up if that's all Dallas wanted.
There are two reasons why the Carter deal is the most likely:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
-Dallas only needs about $3 or 4 Million to get enough space to offer a max contract. So that savings is enough to get Paul or Howard, and they can then use Marion's deal to bring in another player.
-As weird as it sounds, late-lottery picks aren't really valuable nowadays. If they were, then Dallas would keep theirs. A lot of teams would bristle at the idea of eating $8 Million for the pick, especially before they see who falls.
Of course, someone could pull a Golden State and bite on taking Marion. But it's far from certain. What's less likely is that a team will give up an actual productive player for it before the draft, as even role-players like Gary Neal are worth a late-lottery pick to some teams.
I don't know about that Neal thing. I really don't see that happening. We had to cough up George Hill for a 15th and he was and is a lot better than Gary Neal has ever been. Those lottery picks are guaranteed cheap salary guys for years. . .few teams will throw that away. They're more valuble dollar for dollar than most players in the NBA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Those picks are always valuble because of the money dude. And I'm still certain they can trade Carter's small salary for a 2nd rounder easily. He's a big name (even though old), still decent, and has a very reasonable salary. Throwing in the 13th pick seems totally unneccessary when they can draft a cheap, valuble role player who can possibly bloom into a reliable starter in that area of the draft.
They don't want the pick because they don't want to spend the money for the player. It may seem cheap to you, but the 13th-overall selection is slated to get about $2 Million when you factor in the 120-percent amount rookies usually get. So add that to Carter and another player (Cunningham) and the Mavericks actually save closer to $6.2 Million.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
In general, late-lottery players are not very good. Sure, the Spurs got Leonard, but think about the other players drafted near him that year. Besides Faried, there wasn't much. It's even worse when you look at other seasons. Really, it's not any more valuable than a later pick unless a player falls unexpectedly (like Leonard did).
I don't see many teams in the NBA passing up the chance to get Carter and the 13th pick for basically nothing tbhQuote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Most teams don't have the cap space to take back Carter and Cunningham for nothing, and the ones that do would rather keep the space for the same reason Dallas wants to create it. Detroit should get on it, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
13th pick and a name to draw fans for nothing is worth going a little over the cap. Most teams are nowhere near the tax. There's not even a handful of teams who are shedding tidbits of salary to try and add huge names either. I don't see much reason why anyone else wouldn't want a free 13th pick and Carter at 3m at the cost of just a throw away 2nd rounder. They'd just be adding quality, a ticket seller, and ensuring their future salary will be low and have a young, cheap talent on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Agree. 13th pick costs too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
That doesn't matter. A team can't take back salary unless they're under the cap or have a trade exception. Most teams that have cap space have it because they've worked hard to shed salary. They aren't just going to give it up for Carter and a likely bust (and Cunningham, whom you seem to keep forgetting).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
You seem to underestimate the value of cap space in big free-agent summers. The Knicks gave Houston Jordan Hill (a rookie 10th-overall selection) a pick and the right to switch picks so that Houston would take Jared Jeffries' $6 Million off their hands. If Dallas can clear the same amount of cap space for just the 13th pick, you better believe they're going to do it.
Maves don't have any poisonous contract. They won't trade away 13th pick for random players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
They have one in Marion and two other important ones in Carter and Cunningham. They also don't want the actual pick. They don't think it has value to them, and that's why they're trying to move it. I don't know why people are wildly overvaluing late-lottery picks. Besides Leonard, they haven't turned out well lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy2003
Marion's contract will expire next summer plus I don't think he is significantly over-paid. Carter and Cunningham are paid 3 mil and 1 mil respectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
How about Green + Bonner for Shawn Marion + 2 or 3 first round picks including one in 2014?
I could live with a PF rotation of Marion/Diaw, basically as good as it gets vs Bron/Durant.
You overestimate the value of Green. Noway Maves would give up 2 or 3 first round picks for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baam
They want to free up the space THIS summer, which is why they're trying to trade in the first place. They need to get a team to take some of their contracts without sending salary back. Teams aren't usually able to do that, and the ones that are usually have plans for that space. That's why the Mavericks have to try to pay a team to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy2003
If that's the case, the only viable option is Marion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Terrible deal. The Spurs don't make the WCF without Green. They don't make it to Game 7 without him. They're not going to move him unless they get someone better--and that's not Marion. Also, it doesn't save Dallas enough money this season, which defeats the purpose of the trade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baam
Trading away Carter, Cunningham and the pick saves Dallas $5.4-6.2 Million. The other team only has to find the cap space for $4.2 Million, which is a lot easier to get than the $9 Million Marion costs. Plus Dallas would probably like to keep Marion to use in a later deal if they can.Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy2003
I would take that in a heartbeat. Carter is a solid back-up SG and the 13th pick may turn out to be an all star calibre player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Amen!!! I thought I was the only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkTXLabrat
Height: 7'2" Wingspan: 7'8.5"Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas82
I like him.
Amen!!! I thought I was the only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkTXLabrat
Yeah, the Spurs would only have to trade Bonner and maybe some future picks/rights to players overseas to make that deal happen. I don't know if Dallas would make that deal, though, since they probably don't want to deal with the Spurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy2003
A possible trade I've heard is Marion (or Carter and Cunning, although less likely) and 13 to Cleveland for 19. Unless the Mavericks really want someone at 19, the Spurs' offer would probably be better.
If we can get far enough under the cap, would Bonner + our pick for Marion + theirs would come pretty close to working, right? I don't know if they make that trade within the division, but if they're willing to, it gets us a veteran backup 3 and a pick. Might be an interesting move.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Saves more money than Bonner for Carter...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
It sounds like an interesting move. Marion's ability to defend multiple positions helps the Spurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseractive
If the Spurs decide to go under the cap, it will involve them waiving or even amnestying Bonner. If they go that route, they should have enough cap space to just take back Marion without having to send salary to Dallas, which I'm sure they'd prefer. The two teams could agree to that trade during the draft and finalize it after the moratorium in July. So the Spurs could pick their player, Dallas could get their cap space and everyone could be happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseractive
There's also the possibility of trading Bonner and non-salary assets to Dallas for Carter, Cunningham and 13. I'd actually like Carter a bit for than Marion, because the bench desperately needs a scoring wing. Carter could come in a play the three, and the Spurs could use 13, 27 or and the MLE to bring in another big and defensive wing.
I agree in that kind of deal getting Marion would kill two bird with one stone since we have a real use for Marion.Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseractive
Sorry, you're right. What I meant to say was this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Baam
It's not about saving MORE money; it's about saving ENOUGH money. Both deals save enough money, but one of them gives Dallas more leeway to improve down the road/remain competitive. Marion is a great piece to keep if you can, as he's still a good player and also an expiring contract that can net the Mavericks up to $14.3 Million in incoming salary. Green is a good player, but he doesn't offer much more than Carter does, and Vince would still be on the team. Neither team should WANT to make this trade with Marion instead of Carter/Cunningham.
As long as there's somebody at 13 that the front office likes, I like either of those moves. Random picks often have a lot more value to us than to most teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Ok makes sense...
But then again Marion has an ETO so we could still get him but getting him on his expiring contract was more attractive than signing him to a new deal...
I agree. Either this deal would get done during the draft, which would mean someone fell to 13 that the Spurs liked, or it would be done before the draft, which would give the team enough time to package 27 with 13 to maybe move up a couple of spots to get a player. If the Spurs did the Marion deal, they wouldn't be able to package the picks, though, as they wouldn't actually own 13.Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseractive
What about Andre Kirilenko, he would be the best fit for spurs imo
Trade diaw/neal for a sign and trade maybe
Dallas won't deal with spurs. We're rivals. Like Lakers and Celtics.
End of story.
And he can jump pretty high for a man his size. He would be a nice rim protector.Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy2003
they should offer ginobli to see if they are dumb enough to take it.
3m in cap space is nothing when you're getting a free 13th pick and a big name player for it. You're citing New York and Dallas as examples. . .two teams who don't give a shit about selling tickets or getting cheap talent since money is no object for them. Only 1/6th of the league is super rich and able to ignore value.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
There is a ton of value in a 13th pick and Vince Carter. You're acting like teams who are under the cap are all huge free agent draws who can't afford to just basically take a free 13th pick and a ticket seller for practically nothing. Many teams would be jumping at that.
It adds more value and profitability to a franchise than adding an overpaid guy like Monta Ellis would. His salary would be triple what Carter and the 13th pick would get and not rake in enough profit for those teams to make up for the extra expendeture. Then of course they'd still have a ton of money to play with to add someone else or multiple someone else's anyway.
I'm not sure why you're confused about this. It's not about teams WANTING to spend the money; it's about them being ABLE to spend the money. Most teams in the NBA are over the cap right now. They CAN'T take back Carter and Cunningham for nothing unless they have a trade-exception/non-guaranteed deal. It's not about having the cash for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
Here's a breakdown for you to look at. The numbers aren't perfect, but they're accurate enough for you to get an idea of what I'm saying.
-Only two teams are under the salary cap by more than $4.2 Million this season: Phoenix and Sacramento.
-Three other teams have large enough trade exceptions to absorb Carter and Cunningham (Chicago, Memphis and Orlando).
-Atlanta, the Lakers, San Antonio and Toronto have partially guaranteed or fully non-guaranteed 2013-2014 deals to offer enough "free" salary to get both players.
So that's nine teams that can give the Mavericks what they want financially. Then you have to look at who's likely to want to make the deals.
-Phoenix could make the trade, although they have their sights set on Josh Smith and will probably try to shed salary rather than take on $5.4 Million in cap obligations.
-Sacramento legitimately could try for the trade, but it's far from certain that they'd be interested in making the move, as they have little use for Carter, don't really need the pick and aren't known for making shrewd deals in the first place.
-Chicago is in cap hell. They don't want to add salary.
-Memphis might, and it'd be a good deal for them. Hollinger may have bigger plans this off-season, though.
-Orlando could make the deal to acquire another asset. I don't know if they want to cut into their Howard exception yet, though.
-Atlanta's out. They want that room for free agents, and they already have two mid-first picks.
-The Lakers are in the same position as the Bulls, although Carter would be a nice get for them. I think they'll just waive Duhon and pocket his savings.
-The Spurs are the team in question in this thread.
-Toronto should make this trade to get back some asset, but it would require them giving up Lowery, who cost them their own first. Still, ultimately they'd get Carter and Cunningham (and a year lease on Lowery) just to move down one spot in the draft. Not bad.
So as you can see, it's not a clear-cut that someone will offer a cheap deal to Dallas as you think. The Spurs may well have the best offer. Also, really internalize that Dallas wants to move their pick. They'd be trading Carter as sweetener for the pick as much as they are the other way around.
Cuban saying they haven't discussed trading Marion : http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/maver...dealing-marion
I wonder how much of that is them valuing him like Chinook said and how much is just aht they can't without his cooperation since he has an ETO.
I remember before the trade deadline there was talk about Marion trades and he said he only wanted to go to a contender, if we have any shot it's that we're probably the only contender who'd make the move.
Problem is we don't have the piece to do it without a third team, Green is the only salary that fit with Bonner for Marion and obviously you don't want to lose him.
If this drags out into July, the Spurs could just use cap space to acquire him. They wouldn't need to trade Green.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baam
They're preparing themselves to try and sign Deron Williams again.
Green is on a great contract, plays 80th percentile D at SG and is one of the top 5-10 spot up shooters in the league. One of those two contracts is to take on Marion, plus you're giving cap relief through Bonner.Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy2003
I'd love Marion but would find it hard to part with Green given the uncertainty in the backcourt (Neal, Manu). Marion has a 15% trade kicker - I read somewhere this is paid by the outgoing team? At $9 million, unlikely that the Spurs would be able to bring anyone else in besides him, Tiago and Manu.
Bonner for Carter/Bernard James/#13
They net $2,563,604 on the salary exchange after cutting Bonner, and also save the salary slot for the pick, which I believe someone said was about $1.7M.
If they're really going all out for a FA, the trade makes sense, but I just can't see Cuban doing it even if it nets them almost $4.3M, since we are the other party to the trade.
And then there are 3 team deals and the fact that you can buy draft picks for "cash considerations" and that signing picks can be done over the salary cap. You're only looking at teams with trade exceptions or are below the cap, but those aren't the only ones in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
So it's really more than 9, and I see no reason why any of those teams would refuse a basically free pick and ticket seller at the cost of just a few mil of cap space. Thanks for the lengthy reply, was interesting to read your thoughts. I still don't see why anyone would turn down a basically free pick in exchange for a cheaply paid ticket seller who can still play at a moderate level. Nothing about that deal is bad for the "other team".
Marion's deal on the other hand, is terrible and I can certainly see why he would be forced through on a trade with the pick included. Something has to sweeten that deal. Carter though, he's already a bargain, I don't see why the pick would be thrown in when it's already a deal. They can easily get more for it. It doesn't matter if teams who draft sometimes draft busts. 13th pick has good potential.