To all the idiots blaming Manu for Game 7; I bet you'd be upset to see Manu jump ship

First off, fuck whoever banned me for 3 days so I couldn't get on Spurs Talk and post during the finale.

I see a lot of posts of people talking shit about Ginobili and his performance in game seven of the finals. Personally, I think it's pretty funny that Manu gets the blame considering he was the person keeping us in the game (alongside Duncan and Leonard). Ginobili tallied 18 points and 5 assists, while having 3 turnovers in the final quarter.

I thought Manu looked great out there last night. His eurostep/hopstep was on point and his shooting was actually well. The problem I have with the forum on this issue is that they consider the blame to be on "Turnobili". Consider the following:

- The "leader" of our team went 3/12 and at times completely went in hero mode. That man is Tony Parker. I like Parker when he gets into hero mode, but he obviously didn't look for the pass much at all last night. We knew he had to step up in game seven for us to win. I understand he's injured, but I think that plays more of a roll than Ginobili.

- Danny Green and Gary Neal's horrific shooting. Neal not as much (2 for 8), but Green going 1 for 12 is horrible. Especially considering he was making such bonehead mistakes (the turnover on the fast break). In the games at home, we was moving around lots. However, in this game, he seemed content just staying in a corner. I understand the D is guarding you tight, but damn.. the only shot you could make was wide open? He had to play better to win.

- Before someone brings up the "record breaking shooting spree" as an excuse to his poor play, also remember that Ginobili dished out 24 and 10 in game five.

Ginobili played like vintage Manu the other night, but people's blind hatred gets in the way of it. The sad reality is he is a scapegoat for Spurs fans and they fail to realize that he's always played like that, he's always had his "turnover" days, and he's been injured. ?

I read earlier someone claim that he's cost the Spurs "two titles". No, poor perimeter shooting, not executing when we had a chance, and the heartbreaking game six loss all played more of a roll than Manu.

A lot of you guys say "vet minimum or let him walk". I guarantee you guys wouldn't be thinking that if you thought Ginobili wouldn't retire if he wasn't a Spur. Remember, Ginobili doesn't want to retire just yet. How would you feel if he was on the Clippers? Heat? Lakers? Mavericks? I bet all of your attitudes would change.

So in conclusion, those who feel it's Manu's fault... are stupid as fuck. It was a team effort and despite two turnovers at the end... Leonard, Duncan and Green all messed up towards the end too. Missed opportunities.

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Originally Posted by N0 LyF3 ScRuB

First off, fuck whoever banned me for 3 days so I couldn't get on Spurs Talk and post during the finale.

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I see the time away served you well.

Manu's legacy took a big hit during these Finals. Anybody that denies this is fucking blind.

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

Nah. There is no other better coach at managing minutes better than Pop. If Manu went to another team, his new team would expect too much out of him, overplay him in minutes, the guy gets injured, will play like sh*t and he retires. Manu knows this too. He will not fit on another team at this point in his career. Either retire or let the Spurs do the necessary signings and take whatever is left. Manu should not be the FO priority at all.

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I dare him to though. He won't do it.

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Originally Posted by Johnny RIngo

Manu's legacy took a big hit during these Finals. Anybody that denies this is fucking blind.

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idiot.

You have serious problems, I love manu with all my heart, Im argentinian like him and everything else, but he is the one to blame and that cost us the ring, game 6 was the game to steal and he ruined that, you will never get that but who cares

Replace Manu with a decent, CONSISTENT shooting guard, and the Spurs win the finals easy.

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Originally Posted by DeadlyDynasty

I see the time away served you well.

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LMAOOO your avi. :bang

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Originally Posted by SpursFan313

Replace Manu with a decent, CONSISTENT shooting guard, and the Spurs win the finals easy.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by SpursFan313

Replace Manu with a decent, CONSISTENT shooting guard, and the Spurs win the finals easy.

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Without Manu we wouldn't have even gotten to the finals. Moron.

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Originally Posted by dallasmaverickslose

Without Manu we wouldn't have even gotten to the finals. Moron.

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lolwut?

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Originally Posted by dallasmaverickslose

Without Manu we wouldn't have even gotten to the finals. Moron.

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Playoffs	Team	G	GS	MPG	FG%	3p%	FT%	OFF	DEF	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TO	PF	PPG
First Round	SAS	4	0	19.5	0.467	0.500	0.714	0.0	3.0	3.0	4.8	1.8	0.5	2.0	1.0	11.3
Conf. Semifinals	SAS	6	0	29.7	0.342	0.275	0.650	0.7	4.3	5.0	6.3	1.7	0.3	2.5	2.2	12.7
Conf. Finals	SAS	4	0	26.3	0.407	0.286	0.778	1.0	4.3	5.3	4.5	0.5	0.5	2.5	3.0	10.0
Finals	SAS	7	3	28.4	0.433	0.250	0.786	0.1	2.0	2.1	4.3	0.7	0.0	3.1	3.3	11.6
Playoff Averages	SAS	21	3	26.7	0.399	0.302	0.738	0.4	3.3	3.7	5.0	1.1	0.3	2.6	2.5	11.5

Irreplaceable numbers tbh

Yeah, yeah, he hit the big shot in that amazing Warriors game, but anyway....I was referring to the finals.

OP = Emo Moron

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Originally Posted by SpursFan313

Playoffs	Team	G	GS	MPG	FG%	3p%	FT%	OFF	DEF	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TO	PF	PPG
First Round	SAS	4	0	19.5	0.467	0.500	0.714	0.0	3.0	3.0	4.8	1.8	0.5	2.0	1.0	11.3
Conf. Semifinals	SAS	6	0	29.7	0.342	0.275	0.650	0.7	4.3	5.0	6.3	1.7	0.3	2.5	2.2	12.7
Conf. Finals	SAS	4	0	26.3	0.407	0.286	0.778	1.0	4.3	5.3	4.5	0.5	0.5	2.5	3.0	10.0
Finals	SAS	7	3	28.4	0.433	0.250	0.786	0.1	2.0	2.1	4.3	0.7	0.0	3.1	3.3	11.6
Playoff Averages	SAS	21	3	26.7	0.399	0.302	0.738	0.4	3.3	3.7	5.0	1.1	0.3	2.6	2.5	11.5

Irreplaceable numbers tbh

Yeah, yeah, he hit the big shot in that amazing Warriors game, but anyway....I was referring to the finals.

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ROTFLMAO. Great post. Sums it up.

http://vodkaandcupcakesdotcom.files....5/no-bitch.gif

Listen, Ginobili is one of the only playmakers on the Spurs. For you to say without Manu we would have been better is ignorant because: A) nobody can fill his gap of ppg and apg and B) has the experience and the ability to be clutch.

He won us game five against the Heat. If he hadn't had showed up we'd be down 3-2. He gave solid numbers the enitre Lakers series, and the majority of the Warriors series. He saved us from being down 2-0 and going back to Oakland.

Fans these days are ignorant. It's easy to look at someone's stats and say "he's not playing well", but you have to look in between the lines. Just having Ginobili's presence on the court overall helps them.

He played bad in the finals for the most part, but he did not cost them the series. Even in game seven we couldn't hit shot after shot when the Heat were cold. Ginobili actually made a three and then stole the ball....

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Originally Posted by Skull-1

OP = Emo Moron

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Wow. Give it up to this tough guy. What a contributional post to this topic. You sure know your basketball. Please tell me more about how Ginobili pissed game seven away, when he was the only one actually playing like he wanted it. Parker, Green and Neal were no shows. Ginobili consistently drove down the court and being aggressive for the Spurs. The only person playing harder in my opinion was Tim... and it was that close.

What I didn't realize...looking at those stats, is how far his steals have gone down. He use to make up for his turnovers, with steals(and scores)..now, not so much...double whammy. I don't blame Manu for game 7...but it's hard not to put him atop the blame list for game 6.

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Originally Posted by N0 LyF3 ScRuB

He won us game five against the Heat. If he hadn't had showed up we'd be down 3-2. He gave solid numbers the enitre Lakers series, and the majority of the Warriors series. He saved us from being down 2-0 and going back to Oakland.

Fans these days are ignorant. It's easy to look at someone's stats and say "he's not playing well", but you have to look in between the lines. Just having Ginobili's presence on the court overall helps them.

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Are fuc*ing kidding me? Quit living in the past dude. He's no longer what you think he is. Are your his brother? Why are you defending him so much? Manu ADIOS AMIGO. You are DONE.

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

Are fuc*ing kidding me? Quit living in the past dude. He's no longer what you think he is. Are your his brother? Why are you defending him so much? Manu ADIOS AMIGO. You are DONE.

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The past? It was just over a month ago when this stuff happened. You've got to be kidding me.

If Ginobili is not on this team next year you will notice the difference. I assure you that. The Spurs will not make it to the finals next year without Manu. Ginobili isn't my favorite player either.

I'm sorry but I have to do this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvN71...6l8dXy10S30m5w

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Originally Posted by N0 LyF3 ScRuB

Listen, Ginobili is one of the only playmakers on the Spurs. For you to say without Manu we would have been better is ignorant because: A) nobody can fill his gap of ppg and apg and B) has the experience and the ability to be clutch.

He won us game five against the Heat. If he hadn't had showed up we'd be down 3-2. He gave solid numbers the enitre Lakers series, and the majority of the Warriors series. He saved us from being down 2-0 and going back to Oakland.

Fans these days are ignorant. It's easy to look at someone's stats and say "he's not playing well", but you have to look in between the lines. Just having Ginobili's presence on the court overall helps them.

He played bad in the finals for the most part, but he did not cost them the series. Even in game seven we couldn't hit shot after shot when the Heat were cold. Ginobili actually made a three and then stole the ball....

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:lolHe turned the ball over before and after that sequence, and I don't have play-by-play in front of me but I'm sure they resulted in points

He didn't cost them the series, single-handedly, but he was the ring leader.

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Originally Posted by N0 LyF3 ScRuB

Wow. Give it up to this tough guy. What a contributional post to this topic. You sure know your basketball. Please tell me more about how Ginobili pissed game seven away, when he was the only one actually playing like he wanted it. Parker, Green and Neal were no shows. Ginobili consistently drove down the court and being aggressive for the Spurs. The only person playing harder in my opinion was Tim... and it was that close.

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yeah because Leonard wasn't doing a thing....other than making up for Manu being an idiot and throwing the ball out of bounds. Retard.

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

Are fuc*ing kidding me? Quit living in the past dude. He's no longer what you think he is. Are your his brother? Why are you defending him so much? Manu ADIOS AMIGO. You are DONE.

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About to start a TGY Church on this forum. Right on.2005 was a decade ago.... Like when Leonard was in junior high duh...

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Originally Posted by dallasmaverickslose

Without Manu we wouldn't have even gotten to the finals. Moron.

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I love Manu but FOR GODS sakes stop it. He has helped us bigtime in a few titles, but this year he was a shell of himself and showed up once every series or so. Not his fault age catches up and nothing you can do about it, alot of mileage on the guy.


BTW to the OP, he does stuff he always did? I remember in key games him hitting his FT's down the stretch and he is the ONLY guy I wanted the ball with at the end of games because he was good for two FT's. He missed a few of those this year and his TO's down the stretch were just crazy! Unforced and right to the other team, he did NOT always do that. He used to hit more of his shots as well, his % went down alot these playoffs so this was NOT the Manu we were used to who made some mistakes but we all loved because he was so damn good.

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Originally Posted by Poolboy5623

What I didn't realize...looking at those stats, is how far his steals have gone down. He use to make up for his turnovers, with steals(and scores)..now, not so much...double whammy. I don't blame Manu for game 7...but it's hard not to put him atop the blame list for game 6.

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Thats what makes the mistakes so hard to watch now, he turns it over more than steals the ball and hits less shots than he did. OP here is dreaming, seriously his argument NOW is weak and I have to think he is related or just his biggest fan.

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Originally Posted by Sean Cagney

BTW to the OP, he does stuff he always did? I remember in key games him hitting his FT's down the stretch and he is the ONLY guy I wanted the ball with at the end of games because he was good for two FT's. He missed a few of those this year and his TO's down the stretch were just crazy! Unforced and right to the other team, he did NOT always do that. He used to hit more of his shots as well, his % went down alot these playoffs so this was NOT the Manu we were used to who made some mistakes but we all loved because he was so damn good.

Thats what makes the mistakes so hard to watch now, he turns it over more than steals the ball and hits less shots than he did. OP here is dreaming, seriously his argument NOW is weak and I have to think he is related or just his biggest fan.

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I agree. In the past you could always rely on Manu to close the game by knocking down the clutch free throws. This year he looked shaky in the clutch with the exception of the breakfast shot.

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Originally Posted by N0 LyF3 ScRuB

First off, fuck whoever banned me for 3 days so I couldn't get on Spurs Talk and post during the finale.

I see a lot of posts of people talking shit about Ginobili and his performance in game seven of the finals. Personally, I think it's pretty funny that Manu gets the blame considering he was the person keeping us in the game (alongside Duncan and Leonard). Ginobili tallied 18 points and 5 assists, while having 3 turnovers in the final quarter.

I thought Manu looked great out there last night. His eurostep/hopstep was on point and his shooting was actually well. The problem I have with the forum on this issue is that they consider the blame to be on "Turnobili". Consider the following:

- The "leader" of our team went 3/12 and at times completely went in hero mode. That man is Tony Parker. I like Parker when he gets into hero mode, but he obviously didn't look for the pass much at all last night. We knew he had to step up in game seven for us to win. I understand he's injured, but I think that plays more of a roll than Ginobili.

- Danny Green and Gary Neal's horrific shooting. Neal not as much (2 for 8), but Green going 1 for 12 is horrible. Especially considering he was making such bonehead mistakes (the turnover on the fast break). In the games at home, we was moving around lots. However, in this game, he seemed content just staying in a corner. I understand the D is guarding you tight, but damn.. the only shot you could make was wide open? He had to play better to win.

- Before someone brings up the "record breaking shooting spree" as an excuse to his poor play, also remember that Ginobili dished out 24 and 10 in game five.

Ginobili played like vintage Manu the other night, but people's blind hatred gets in the way of it. The sad reality is he is a scapegoat for Spurs fans and they fail to realize that he's always played like that, he's always had his "turnover" days, and he's been injured. ?

I read earlier someone claim that he's cost the Spurs "two titles". No, poor perimeter shooting, not executing when we had a chance, and the heartbreaking game six loss all played more of a roll than Manu.

A lot of you guys say "vet minimum or let him walk". I guarantee you guys wouldn't be thinking that if you thought Ginobili wouldn't retire if he wasn't a Spur. Remember, Ginobili doesn't want to retire just yet. How would you feel if he was on the Clippers? Heat? Lakers? Mavericks? I bet all of your attitudes would change.

So in conclusion, those who feel it's Manu's fault... are stupid as fuck. It was a team effort and despite two turnovers at the end... Leonard, Duncan and Green all messed up towards the end too. Missed opportunities.

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Great post! Welcome back! I've been defending Manu from all the haters as well! These traitor ass bitches that forget all of good he has done for the Spurs! All you Manu haters GTFO!

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

Well said.

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Two stupid idiots! Both of you need to be banned. Bunch of dumbasses!

Game 7? hell...I'm not even over his pathetic play and 8 turnovers in game 6.

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

Are fuc*ing kidding me? Quit living in the past dude. He's no longer what you think he is. Are your his brother? Why are you defending him so much? Manu ADIOS AMIGO. You are DONE.

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Look bitch you need to GTFO! Fucking hater!

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Originally Posted by HemisfairArena

Game 7? hell...I'm not even over his pathetic play and 8 turnovers in game 6.

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is this real life?? people are saying "We need manu to make it to the finals?"

Need him to do what? seriously. Bad passes, clang 3's, and sit on the bench injured or half injured half the season for more money than another team would pay him??

seriously shed light on what we "NEED" manu for next year.

Lol everytime I read a pro manu post 90% of the time it has manu from 5 yrs ago in the avatar ...... https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5324758016/hB938D624/ <-- manu defenders at his present age n ability

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Originally Posted by texmich

Lol everytime I read a pro manu post 90% of the time it has manu from 5 yrs ago in the avatar ...... <-- manu defenders at his present age n ability

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The OP is probably from Argentina too.

Yeah see, nobody denies Manu from 5 years ago was good, or even Manu from 2 years ago.

The issue is that he's much worse now. You have to be blind, dumb, or trolling to think Manu wasn't the most disappointing Spur in the Finals. There were other disappointing Spurs like Splitter, but Pop benched him so his shitty play didn't at least shoot us in the foot. He left Manu out there to repeatedly shit the bed. . .which is even worse.

One game does not make up for 4 poor games, one VERY SHITTY game, and yet another chokejob at the end of game 7 after an average game.

If Manu left, I really, honestly, would not give a shit. I don't want him back for anything near what he was getting paid. 7m/year tops, and that's still probably a little more than he's worth considering he will probably be missing a lot of games per par.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

There were other disappointing Spurs like Splitter, but Pop benched him so his shitty play didn't at least shoot us in the foot.

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There's a huge difference though. Splitter didn't really fit in these series, because Miami played mostly small. With Manu, there was no plan B. Neal showed up in only one game in these series, and there's no way, no how he can handle the rock.

And frankly, this isn't the first time that one of the big 3 has a visible drop in production and a bad series. I understand Spursfan was badly bitten because it's the Finals, but they have short memory too.

In 2010/11, TD went from 20/10 in the playoffs to 12/10, averaging 3(!) turnovers a game against Memphis. It was the season everyone was questioning if he had anything left in the tank.

Obviously, Tim is the franchise and you stand by the franchise. It's also clear we can survive a mediocre Gino, but not a mediocre Tim. But it's a reminder that matchup matters, and that a bad game/series/playoffs run doesn't automatically mean a player has nothing left.

There's no doubt that Tim's bounce after that season was near miraculous, and it's quite possible Gino might not be able to turn it around like that if he decides to comes back. But the Spurs understand these things happen, and I'm sure they'll take another look at him (again, if the decides to come back).

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

The OP is probably from Argentina too.

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Hahahahahahahahaaaaa!

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

Yeah see, nobody denies Manu from 5 years ago was good, or even Manu from 2 years ago.

The issue is that he's much worse now. You have to be blind, dumb, or trolling to think Manu wasn't the most disappointing Spur in the Finals. There were other disappointing Spurs like Splitter, but Pop benched him so his shitty play didn't at least shoot us in the foot. He left Manu out there to repeatedly shit the bed. . .which is even worse.

One game does not make up for 4 poor games, one VERY SHITTY game, and yet another chokejob at the end of game 7 after an average game.

If Manu left, I really, honestly, would not give a shit. I don't want him back for anything near what he was getting paid. 7m/year tops, and that's still probably a little more than he's worth considering he will probably be missing a lot of games per par.

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Need to start a Church of TheGreatYacht and Kidd K




You guys are right on.

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Originally Posted by Poolboy5623

What I didn't realize...looking at those stats, is how far his steals have gone down. He use to make up for his turnovers, with steals(and scores)..now, not so much...double whammy. I don't blame Manu for game 7...but it's hard not to put him atop the blame list for game 6.

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I agree Manu used to make up his mistakes by making a good play on defense (get a steal, force a turnover/miss). Those plays are far and few now. That's why I was expecting him to hit his free throws when he went to the line late in game 6. When he missed I thought it was pretty much clear he's not the same Manu. The Manu even from a few years back wouldn't have missed at the line in that situation.

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Originally Posted by texmich

Lol everytime I read a pro manu post 90% of the time it has manu from 5 yrs ago in the avatar ...... https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5324758016/hB938D624/ <-- manu defenders at his present age n ability

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Manu Defenders at times get this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxYvzVxJtYM

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Originally Posted by dallasmaverickslose

Without Manu we wouldn't have even gotten to the finals. Moron.

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hahaha, what? he had 1 good game the whole playoffs. what the fuk are YOU talking about.

I don't understand the guys that bitch about his play in game 7, he was one of only 4 guys not to completely shit the bed. Yeah, game 6 he was bad but there are a lot of others that are as (if not more) responsable than him for not winning this 'ship.

I'm still mad at him for game 6, but I would definitely be sad if he left.

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Originally Posted by james evans

hahaha, what? he had 1 good game the whole playoffs. what the fuk are YOU talking about.

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lol udumb

Dont you mean sink someone else's ship for a change? Love Gino's career with the Spurs, but tell that boy to get gone, and take Pop with him.

Nope. Can't wait to see him left.

He runs the system morons.

We made the finals because we're a great team. No other team has this many assists, when the assisted baskets go down the Spurs lose. Manu is still (increasingly even) a chief system administrator creating team baskets over iso-ball (that also if you just use your brain a little bit means living with risk of more turnovers). The last two years this Spurs team would not be a serious contender without.

It seems that you've never been a fan of a team before, or have never seen your favorite player grow old.
All players grow old and ineffective. Manu has reached that point, the jury is in, there is no ambiguity, no equivocating. This year proved that he is not capable, for mental and physical reasons, to adapt his game to changing circumstances and conditions. In fact, that has always been his trademark: he always plays one way. Well, now that one way sucks and he's stuck on bad. This year we saw what he had left, we gambled on his abilities, and it cost us a ring.
He is no longer needed. To keep him is a liability. No more. No thanks.

To say that does not mean we do not appreciative his prior contributions, not at all. But it's time to move on.

I'm a Spurs fan first. Love the individual players, but for each there will be a time to go. That time is now for Manu.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

There's a huge difference though. Splitter didn't really fit in these series, because Miami played mostly small. With Manu, there was no plan B. Neal showed up in only one game in these series, and there's no way, no how he can handle the rock.

And frankly, this isn't the first time that one of the big 3 has a visible drop in production and a bad series. I understand Spursfan was badly bitten because it's the Finals, but they have short memory too.

In 2010/11, TD went from 20/10 in the playoffs to 12/10, averaging 3(!) turnovers a game against Memphis. It was the season everyone was questioning if he had anything left in the tank.

Obviously, Tim is the franchise and you stand by the franchise. It's also clear we can survive a mediocre Gino, but not a mediocre Tim. But it's a reminder that matchup matters, and that a bad game/series/playoffs run doesn't automatically mean a player has nothing left.

There's no doubt that Tim's bounce after that season was near miraculous, and it's quite possible Gino might not be able to turn it around like that if he decides to comes back. But the Spurs understand these things happen, and I'm sure they'll take another look at him (again, if the decides to come back).

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I know there was no Plan B. . .I mentioned that in other threads. That's what made it even worse. Pop continued to use Manu despite how bad he was playing, only magnifying how much it impacted the team negatively than anybody else who played.

I haven't looked this up yet (and it wouldn't be too hard to do I guess so I might soon), but I would not be the least bit surprised if Manu had the worst total +/- of the series for the Spurs by a large margin. Even with his game 5 really stopping it from dropping into oblivion.

Specifically because there's no "Plan B", he had to be good. Splitter wasn't that neccessary in that series, so if he shat the bed it didn't matter. No one expected him to be a big piece. Manu on the other hand, we needed, and he didn't come through. 1 good game, 1 average game with a shitty finish, 4 very bad games, and 1 all time bad, horrendous game. That's why he was the worst Spur, and why he deserves the most blame. His huge salary btw (biggest on team), is one of the biggest reasons why we didn't have a Plan B for him. So in a way, you could say that's also his fault.

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Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown

It seems that you've never been a fan of a team before, or have never seen your favorite player grow old.
All players grow old and ineffective. Manu has reached that point, the jury is in, there is no ambiguity, no equivocating. This year proved that he is not capable, for mental and physical reasons, to adapt his game to changing circumstances and conditions. In fact, that has always been his trademark: he always plays one way. Well, now that one way sucks and he's stuck on bad. This year we saw what he had left, we gambled on his abilities, and it cost us a ring.
He is no longer needed. To keep him is a liability. No more. No thanks.

To say that does not mean we do not appreciative his prior contributions, not at all. But it's time to move on.

I'm a Spurs fan first. Love the individual players, but for each there will be a time to go. That time is now for Manu.

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BRAVO.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

I know there was no Plan B. . .I mentioned that in other threads. That's what made it even worse. Pop continued to use Manu despite how bad he was playing, only magnifying how much it impacted the team negatively than anybody else who played.

I haven't looked this up yet (and it wouldn't be too hard to do I guess so I might soon), but I would not be the least bit surprised if Manu had the worst total +/- of the series for the Spurs by a large margin. Even with his game 5 really stopping it from dropping into oblivion.

Specifically because there's no "Plan B", he had to be good. Splitter wasn't that neccessary in that series, so if he shat the bed it didn't matter. No one expected him to be a big piece. Manu on the other hand, we needed, and he didn't come through. 1 good game, 1 average game with a shitty finish, 4 very bad games, and 1 all time bad, horrendous game. That's why he was the worst Spur, and why he deserves the most blame. His huge salary btw (biggest on team), is one of the biggest reasons why we didn't have a Plan B for him. So in a way, you could say that's also his fault.

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:toast

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

I haven't looked this up yet (and it wouldn't be too hard to do I guess so I might soon), but I would not be the least bit surprised if Manu had the worst total +/- of the series for the Spurs by a large margin. Even with his game 5 really stopping it from dropping into oblivion.

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He did, by far:
http://stats.nba.com/teamPlayers.htm...cope=&splits=Y

But when you look at the playoffs overall, he actually was top 3 positive for our team, pretty much tied with Duncan for #2 on +/-:

http://stats.nba.com/teamPlayers.htm...cope=&splits=Y

The reality is that Miami is a lot of notches above any other competition we had this postseason, and it's clear they focused on stopping our creators. Tony is young and had the speed to overcome it for stretches, but Manu did not.
On the other hand, when you look at the entire playoff run numbers, Manu was key to even get there. That will probably get lost in the mist of the Finals, but on this team, a Gino with his shot broken was still producing at peak rate for this team. On that note, Kawhi playoff run was phenomenal...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

He did, by far:
http://stats.nba.com/teamPlayers.htm...cope=&splits=Y

But when you look at the playoffs overall, he actually was top 3 positive for our team, pretty much tied with Duncan for #2 on +/-:

http://stats.nba.com/teamPlayers.htm...cope=&splits=Y

The reality is that Miami is a lot of notches above any other competition we had this postseason, and it's clear they focused on stopping our creators. Tony is young and had the speed to overcome it for stretches, but Manu did not.

On the other hand, when you look at the entire playoff run numbers, Manu was key to even get there. That will probably get lost in the mist of the Finals, but on this team, a Gino with his shot broken was still producing at peak rate for this team. On that note, Kawhi playoff run was phenomenal...

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First round was irrelevant though, and that's where Ginobili got most of his postseason +/-. He did decent overall in the 2nd round (in +/-), but the Warriors weren't an elite team. It's kinda deceptive since his +/- got steadily worse as the postseason went along.

Manu's +/- against LA: +19, +19, +6, +9. So that's +53 total over 4 games)

Manu's +/- vs Warriors: +17, -7, +13, 0, +17, +10 (+50 total over 6 games)

Manu's +/- vs Grizzlies: +2, +2, +13, +8 (+29 total over 4 games)

Manu's +/- vs Heat: +3, -23, +6, -22, +19, -21, +6 (-32 over 7 games)

Slid down further and further as the playoffs went on, and completely dropped off in the Finals. You expect most guys' +/- will slide a bit, but the massive dropoff? Shit's crazy.

His +/- was by far the worst of the major Spur players in the Heat series too.
+/- of major minutes players vs Heat:

Timmy: +29 total, 252 minutes
Kawhi: +11 total, 255 1/2 minutes
Tony: +6 total, 246 1/2 minutes
Danny: +6 total, 248 minutes
Gary: -3 total, 171 minutes
Tiago: -7 total, 107 minutes
Manu: -32 total, 198 1/2 minutes


Manu was also the only Spur to get worse than -10 +/- 3 times. Only two other guys did it twice (Neal and Splitter). Of course, Manu's 3 -10s. . were actually all worse than -20. Three -20s in the same series.

As for being key to getting there, I don't really agree. He was pretty key in the Warriors series for a few of those games, but not in the Lakers series whom we stomped. . .or the Grizzlies series where he bagen to taper off and Duncan and Parker carried us.

I think we could've gotten past them with a good but not unrealistic repleacement player for him. Manu's not irreplaceable anymore like he was a couple years ago. He's declined so much we could replace him without really losing much of anything besides the new guy having to learn the system being the major hiccup. I'm all for being loyal and bringing him back, just not in the same role or for anywhere near what he's been gettin paid.

The main reason I'm down on this dude because he's supposed to be our 3rd best guy, but played the 5th most minutes and posted the worst +/-, including 3 of the worst +/-'s of the series. :( It isn't because I hate him or anything; he's been a favorite for me for nearly a decade.

Lastly with the stats. . .he only had two double figures +/-'s in the WCF and Finals combined, and a net total -3 +/- in WCF/Finals compared to +103 in the (comparatively) easy two rounds. -106 points worse in the last two rounds than the first two. :\ It's a really big drop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

First round was irrelevant though, and that's where Ginobili got most of his postseason +/-. He did decent overall in the 2nd round (in +/-), but the Warriors weren't an elite team. It's kinda deceptive since his +/- got steadily worse as the postseason went along.

Manu's +/- against LA: +19, +19, +6, +9. So that's +53 total over 4 games)

Manu's +/- vs Warriors: +17, -7, +13, 0, +17, +10 (+50 total over 6 games)

Manu's +/- vs Grizzlies: +2, +2, +13, +8 (+29 total over 4 games)

Manu's +/- vs Heat: +3, -23, +6, -22, +19, -21, +6 (-32 over 7 games)

Slid down further and further as the playoffs went on, and completely dropped off in the Finals. You expect most guys' +/- will slide a bit, but the massive dropoff? Shit's crazy.

His +/- was by far the worst of the major Spur players in the Heat series too.
+/- of major minutes players vs Heat:

Timmy: +29 total, 252 minutes
Kawhi: +11 total, 255 1/2 minutes
Tony: +6 total, 246 1/2 minutes
Danny: +6 total, 248 minutes
Gary: -3 total, 171 minutes
Tiago: -7 total, 107 minutes
Manu: -32 total, 198 1/2 minutes


Manu was also the only Spur to get worse than -10 +/- 3 times. Only two other guys did it twice (Neal and Splitter). Of course, Manu's 3 -10s. . were actually all worse than -20. Three -20s in the same series.

As for being key to getting there, I don't really agree. He was pretty key in the Warriors series for a few of those games, but not in the Lakers series whom we stomped. . .or the Grizzlies series where he bagen to taper off and Duncan and Parker carried us.

I think we could've gotten past them with a good but not unrealistic repleacement player for him. Manu's not irreplaceable anymore like he was a couple years ago. He's declined so much we could replace him without really losing much of anything besides the new guy having to learn the system being the major hiccup. I'm all for being loyal and bringing him back, just not in the same role or for anywhere near what he's been gettin paid.

The main reason I'm down on this dude because he's supposed to be our 3rd best guy, but played the 5th most minutes and posted the worst +/-, including 3 of the worst +/-'s of the series. :( It isn't because I hate him or anything; he's been a favorite for me for nearly a decade.

Lastly with the stats. . .he only had two double figures +/-'s in the WCF and Finals combined, and a net total -3 +/- in WCF/Finals compared to +103 in the (comparatively) easy two rounds. -106 points worse in the last two rounds than the first two. :\ It's a really big drop.

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:toast

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Originally Posted by Mouth is Bleeding

He runs the system morons.

We made the finals because we're a great team. No other team has this many assists, when the assisted baskets go down the Spurs lose. Manu is still (increasingly even) a chief system administrator creating team baskets over iso-ball (that also if you just use your brain a little bit means living with risk of more turnovers). The last two years this Spurs team would not be a serious contender without.

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Last year I will give it to you! Yes! This year not so much.. He had some games but in some no doubt he hurt more than he helped with some riduculous TO's at key times in the game. He is not the only one who effed up I know but he was still key in it and was near the top of things that stand out. I have no clue how he got so bad so fast? He is older and years caught up I guess but last year he was just going for 30+ in the WCF a few times. I wish we had that Manu back.

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Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown

It seems that you've never been a fan of a team before, or have never seen your favorite player grow old.
All players grow old and ineffective. Manu has reached that point, the jury is in, there is no ambiguity, no equivocating. This year proved that he is not capable, for mental and physical reasons, to adapt his game to changing circumstances and conditions. In fact, that has always been his trademark: he always plays one way. Well, now that one way sucks and he's stuck on bad. This year we saw what he had left, we gambled on his abilities, and it cost us a ring.
He is no longer needed. To keep him is a liability. No more. No thanks.

To say that does not mean we do not appreciative his prior contributions, not at all. But it's time to move on.

I'm a Spurs fan first. Love the individual players, but for each there will be a time to go. That time is now for Manu.

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This is a great post!

I do want Manu back for a year though at a cheaper cost and different role! I am fine with him on this team unless it is the role he was given this year and that is a no no.

if he plays for the Heat next year we may win the finals..

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Originally Posted by dallasmaverickslose

Without Manu we wouldn't have even gotten to the finals. Moron.

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No...

We got there in spite of him this year.. What series did he even play well in??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

Splitter wasn't that neccessary in that series, so if he shat the bed it didn't matter. No one expected him to be a big piece. Manu on the other hand, we needed, and he didn't come through.

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We didn't need Manu to be a big piece. As the finals went on, all he needed to do was to recognize that Miami's defense wasn't allowing his sloppy, forced passes and self-correct. Pretty simple. The fact that he was unwilling or unable to deal with this rather basic adjustment is the tell.

who wants to make a bet that i will be upset? i am willing to bet. put your money where you manuer love is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown

We didn't need Manu to be a big piece. As the finals went on, all he needed to do was to recognize that Miami's defense wasn't allowing his sloppy, forced passes and self-correct. Pretty simple. The fact that he was unwilling or unable to deal with this rather basic adjustment is the tell.

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We can't win a title without a significant scoring and ballhandling threat to Tony Parker. Manu can't fill the role anymore, so we need to bring someone new in while Duncan's still able to play at this level. Waiting, or just going to Manu who failed us each of the last two years (and has been unhealthy each of the last 4 years before that), would be dooming our team to not getting another title without tremendous luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by And1Mak

who wants to make a bet that i will be upset? i am willing to bet. put your money where you manuer love is.

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I bet that no matter what someone bets you will feel, you will claim the opposite so you win the bet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

First round was irrelevant though, and that's where Ginobili got most of his postseason +/-. He did decent overall in the 2nd round (in +/-), but the Warriors weren't an elite team. It's kinda deceptive since his +/- got steadily worse as the postseason went along.

Manu's +/- against LA: +19, +19, +6, +9. So that's +53 total over 4 games)

Manu's +/- vs Warriors: +17, -7, +13, 0, +17, +10 (+50 total over 6 games)

Manu's +/- vs Grizzlies: +2, +2, +13, +8 (+25 total over 4 games) <-- +25 here

Manu's +/- vs Heat: +3, -23, +6, -22, +19, -21, +6 (-32 over 7 games)

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What are you comparing against to say 'decent' or anything like that? TP was +3 overall for the entire Warrior series, basically a wash. He was +33 against the Grizz.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

Slid down further and further as the playoffs went on, and completely dropped off in the Finals. You expect most guys' +/- will slide a bit, but the massive dropoff? Shit's crazy.

...

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His Finals dropoff was crazy bad. Completely agree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

As for being key to getting there, I don't really agree. He was pretty key in the Warriors series for a few of those games, but not in the Lakers series whom we stomped. . .or the Grizzlies series where he bagen to taper off and Duncan and Parker carried us.

I think we could've gotten past them with a good but not unrealistic repleacement player for him. Manu's not irreplaceable anymore like he was a couple years ago. He's declined so much we could replace him without really losing much of anything besides the new guy having to learn the system being the major hiccup. I'm all for being loyal and bringing him back, just not in the same role or for anywhere near what he's been gettin paid.

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That's silly. He was far and away the most productive player in the Warriors series, even with his shot broken.

http://stats.nba.com/teamPlayers.htm...cope=&splits=Y

Tony was +3 for the series, Timmy was -11 for the series. Danny Green was -30 (:wow). I didn't dig into the numbers until you brought this thread up, and it's pretty crazy actually.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

The main reason I'm down on this dude because he's supposed to be our 3rd best guy, but played the 5th most minutes and posted the worst +/-, including 3 of the worst +/-'s of the series. :( It isn't because I hate him or anything; he's been a favorite for me for nearly a decade.

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I think at this age he's much easier to plan for. And he shat the bed in the Finals, which magnifies absolutely everything. Hit shot was broken almost all season, which didn't help either.

But I think he can bounce back and be an integral part as the #4 guy. Kawhi has come along well enough to be #3 going forward. With Manu my concern is more about health than anything else.

I won't shed a tear when he leaves

Best thing Manu can do is retire. Spurs don't need older players. Manu's salary can be better used elsewhere. End of conversation. Manu retiring would force the FO to really look at the FA market.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TrainOfThought5

is this real life?? people are saying "We need manu to make it to the finals?"

Need him to do what? seriously. Bad passes, clang 3's, and sit on the bench injured or half injured half the season for more money than another team would pay him??

seriously shed light on what we "NEED" manu for next year.

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Brilliantly posted. I could NOT agree more.

scitzophrinic bastard choked away a championship

Disagree. Manu would be a great player to have for the right amount. People forget it takes at least 1-2 seasons for new players to make an impact in general in our system, and these Spurs might not have that much time left.

At the very least, I expect the Spurs to give him another year to take a good look at what he has left. Makes sense, too. Unless he wants to retire, that is.

Nono, Manus time here has effectively come to an end. he is no longer an asset to this franchise, except at a dollar amount that im sure he would consider insulting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Disagree. Manu would be a great player to have for the right amount. People forget it takes at least 1-2 seasons for new players to make an impact in general in our system, and these Spurs might not have that much time left.

At the very least, I expect the Spurs to give him another year to take a good look at what he has left. Makes sense, too. Unless he wants to retire, that is.

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Sure if he takes the vet's min.

It's going to be a long, long offseason...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

It's going to be a long, long offseason...

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Yup

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TrainOfThought5

Nono, Manus time here has effectively come to an end. he is no longer an asset to this franchise, except at a dollar amount that im sure he would consider insulting.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

Sure if he takes the vet's min.

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Disagree on both counts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

What are you comparing against to say 'decent' or anything like that? TP was +3 overall for the entire Warrior series, basically a wash. He was +33 against the Grizz.



His Finals dropoff was crazy bad. Completely agree.



That's silly. He was far and away the most productive player in the Warriors series, even with his shot broken.

http://stats.nba.com/teamPlayers.htm...cope=&splits=Y

Tony was +3 for the series, Timmy was -11 for the series. Danny Green was -30 (:wow). I didn't dig into the numbers until you brought this thread up, and it's pretty crazy actually.



I think at this age he's much easier to plan for. And he shat the bed in the Finals, which magnifies absolutely everything. Hit shot was broken almost all season, which didn't help either.

But I think he can bounce back and be an integral part as the #4 guy. Kawhi has come along well enough to be #3 going forward. With Manu my concern is more about health than anything else.

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How is that a wash? TP was going toe to toe with the toughest lineups and players the Warriors had, while Manu always got 100% of the minutes against their worst lineups.

For example, game 3 against the Warriors, Parker players 35 minutes and scores 32 points on 57% FG% and 50$ 3pt% shooting with 5 boards and assists thrown in. His +/- was -6.

Manu played 27 1/2 minutes, scoring only 12 points with 5 boards and 4 assists. He had a +13 +/-.

Using the GameScore stat in addition to +/-, it begins to come clear how much more Parker was impacting the game. The stats are best when used together.

10.0 GameScore is considered "average". In 21 postseason games, Parker was below 10 5 times, once was 9.9, so basically 4 times. Only one of those four times was below 5.0 (4.5 the last game against the Warriors where he was hobbled with the calf injury and everyone was scaed he might've gone down for the postseason.). He cracked 20 GameScore 6 times, and almost got to 30 once (29.3, game 4 at Memphis)

Ginobili managed to crack 10 just 7 of 21 times. 3 of those 7 were barely at or above 10 (10, 10.8, 12.2). Only a single game with a GameScore over 20 (game 5 Finals, 21.0). Under 1.0 four times. Even under 0 once.
Here's a list of their total GameScores:

Parker vs Lakers: 73.3 (18.3 average)
Parker vs Warriors: 92.1 (15.35 average)
Parker vs Grizzlies: 80.5 (20.1 average)
Parker vs Heat: 78.3 (11.2 average)
Total: 324.2 (15.4 average, rounded down from 15.438)

Ginobili vs Lakers: 43.7 (10.9 average)
Ginobili vs Warriors: 58.8 (9.8 average)
Ginobili vs Grizzlies: 33.0 (8.25 average)
Ginobili vs Heat: 46.7 (6.67 average)
Total: 182.2 (8.7 average, rounded up from 8.676)

Long story short, Parker was keeping us afloat against the toughest runs by the opposing team. Manu rarely had to face it except when on the court with Tony and Timmy. And that's with Parker battling through the hamstring problem in the Finals, and the calf injury in the 2nd round. Tony had a much larger positive impact on every series than Manu did. Total difference being almost nearly double in Parker's favor even with battling through a couple injuries.

Manu didn't just shit the bed in the Finals, he was average in the first two rounds statistically and below average in the WCF then shit in the Finals. The average NBA player has a 10.0 GameScore and would have a positive +/- just by being on the Spurs. Now look at Manu's GameScore and +/-.

Yeah he shat the bed, but he wasn't some huge force in getting us there either. We need someone who can fill his role and do it better, we don't specifically need him anymore. He's not getting it done and he was steadily slipping the longer the postseason went. Meanwhile Parker stepped up his game against the Grizzlies and Duncan got stronger. Fuck even Green, Leonard, Diaw, and Neal all got better as the postseason went on. Everyone but Manu and Splitter.

Like I said, I'll take Manu back, but definitely not in the role he's been in. We need someone else, and technically we don't even need him anymore if we had someone else. But I'll take him back as an insurance policy and as a 2nd option off the bench rather than 1st.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

How is that a wash? TP was going toe to toe with the toughest lineups and players the Warriors had, while Manu always got 100% of the minutes against their worst lineups.

For example, game 3 against the Warriors, Parker players 35 minutes and scores 32 points on 57% FG% and 50$ 3pt% shooting with 5 boards and assists thrown in. His +/- was -6.

Manu played 27 1/2 minutes, scoring only 12 points with 5 boards and 4 assists. He had a +13 +/-.

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What I mean by 'a wash' is that his overall production with him on the floor was basically zero (+3) for the series. And who they played against means absolutely nothing to the point I'm making: without Manu making a huge difference from the bench, I don't know we win that series, because the starters couldn't make the difference against their starters.

The individual numbers don't really matter, because Manu isn't just scoring for himself. He creates for guys like Tiago, and opens the game for guys like Neal to produce anything off the bench.
This is what people completely ignore about Manu's game, why they just think you can throw any player out there and get the same production from Tiago, Neal, etc. The 'commanding attention' factor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

Using the GameScore stat in addition to +/-, it begins to come clear how much more Parker was impacting the game. The stats are best when used together.

...

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I disagree, unless you're looking to establish individual production over lineup productions, which isn't my point at all. Gamescore is much more directly impacted by personal numbers. As a matter of fact, Gamescore and +/- have very little to do with one another at all. One is a stat that seeks to establish personal production (GameScore) and the other is a stat that gauges lineup combination (+/-). Individually, Manu didn't have a good playoff run. As part of lineup combos, he had a major impact on every series except the Finals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

Long story short, Parker was keeping us afloat against the toughest runs by the opposing team. Manu rarely had to face it except when on the court with Tony and Timmy. And that's with Parker battling through the hamstring problem in the Finals, and the calf injury in the 2nd round. Tony had a much larger positive impact on every series than Manu did. Total difference being almost nearly double in Parker's favor even with battling through a couple injuries.

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You're misconstruing what I'm saying. I didn't say Parker wasn't great or played any worse than Manu in any series. I'm stating that in the Warriors series we couldn't make the difference with our starters, even if they were playing absolutely great, and levels above than the bench guys. Simply because the other teams starters were matching that production. Take a look again at the +/- in the Warriors series, and it's the bench guys + Kawhi that completely put us over the top.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

Manu didn't just shit the bed in the Finals, he was average in the first two rounds statistically and below average in the WCF then shit in the Finals. The average NBA player has a 10.0 GameScore and would have a positive +/- just by being on the Spurs. Now look at Manu's GameScore and +/-.

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I would've agreed with this with Manu's role a few years ago, where he looked more for his own individual numbers than trying to get everyone involved. Not this season though. Could he have put better individual numbers? Sure. But the Spurs needed production from other players than can't create anything for themselves, and by just playing Manu in the lineup with them, he made a huge difference. This is clearly reflected in the +/- numbers. Which personally I think also a part of the reason why the fall was so severe in the Finals... Manu individually was pretty bad, but all the other guys he created for were too. It was just a really bad combo that the Spurs couldn't exploit in that series.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

Yeah he shat the bed, but he wasn't some huge force in getting us there either. We need someone who can fill his role and do it better, we don't specifically need him anymore. He's not getting it done and he was steadily slipping the longer the postseason went. Meanwhile Parker stepped up his game against the Grizzlies and Duncan got stronger. Fuck even Green, Leonard, Diaw, and Neal all got better as the postseason went on. Everyone but Manu and Splitter.

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Completely disagree with this too. I don't think you just throw CJ or DeColo in there and we get the same production from the bench. Actually, seeing both of them extensively during the season, I would argue we do not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

Like I said, I'll take Manu back, but definitely not in the role he's been in. We need someone else, and technically we don't even need him anymore if we had someone else. But I'll take him back as an insurance policy and as a 2nd option off the bench rather than 1st.

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I have no problem with him with being option #1 off the bench at all, but he can't be the backup PG against certain teams that pressure the ball as much. I rather we get his offense off the ball, through screens, etc. But we need to have a solid ball handler for that, and another player that commands certain attention so Manu isn't the only person the other team's defense has to focus on. I also think his shooting in general was an aberration, and he can work his way into getting that back in serviceable form. He was damn bad on floaters all season long, a shot he hit at a high rate just a season ago.

But obviously, he has to decide to come back for that to happen.

In a way, I think we're somewhat at a similar juncture as we were with Tim a few seasons ago. You couldn't just throw stiffs (ie: Bonner) with Tim and expect him to keep carrying the load. He needed help, and Tiago and Kawhi provided that. And I think this is the same juncture with Manu. He needs some help, having other players commanding enough attention to help him open up his game, especially on that second unit, IMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

I bet that no matter what someone bets you will feel, you will claim the opposite so you win the bet.

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no i promise on frabeezy

Manu played like a D leaguer in game 6(with apologies to CoJo). I blamed him for playing like a D leaguer in game 6, not for losing the game. He wasn't even on my radar in game 7. I was confident with what he was going to bring in that one. I won't be upset if he jumps ship. I would be upset if the Spurs gave him another contract and he decides to play summer ball anywhere else in the world. He's too old and beat up to play competition ball around the year. I do hope he comes back, but only if he's dedicated to the Spurs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

What I mean by 'a wash' is that his overall production with him on the floor was basically zero (+3) for the series. And who they played against means absolutely nothing to the point I'm making: without Manu making a huge difference from the bench, I don't know we win that series, because the starters couldn't make the difference against their starters.

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It isn't a wash since Parker was doing a hell of a lot more work than Manu. Steph Curry was annihilating us and looking like the best player in the playoffs. Parker playing him even was a win in and of itself. You can't just brush his play under the rug, he was playing better than Manu. Their bench didn't have a lot as they ran their starters into the ground with minutes played. Manu had pretty much the most cushy role on the team. Play guys who don't play much or play tired guys.

Quote:

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The individual numbers don't really matter, because Manu isn't just scoring for himself. He creates for guys like Tiago, and opens the game for guys like Neal to produce anything off the bench.
This is what people completely ignore about Manu's game, why they just think you can throw any player out there and get the same production from Tiago, Neal, etc. The 'commanding attention' factor.

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Kind of a strawman there. Not that many people ignore Manu's playmaking. His playmaking isn't better than Parker's (though it's more aggressive and risky). I don't think "any" player can fill the role, that's why I said we needed to bring someone in. We don't have anyone else who can do it.

Quote:

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I disagree, unless you're looking to establish individual production over lineup productions, which isn't my point at all. Gamescore is much more directly impacted by personal numbers. As a matter of fact, Gamescore and +/- have very little to do with one another at all. One is a stat that seeks to establish personal production (GameScore) and the other is a stat that gauges lineup combination (+/-). Individually, Manu didn't have a good playoff run. As part of lineup combos, he had a major impact on every series except the Finals.

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They do go well together. We can look at a box score after a game and see that Matt Bonner has a +/- of +6, and that Parker has one of +2. Three times as good as Parker. Then you might think, hey Bonner helped the team more right~? Except he played 5 minutes and was 0-2, with no rebounds or assists. Meanwhile Parker had 32 points on 55% shooting, 7 assists and 4 rebounds and only 2 turnovers.

Parker wasn't magically "a wash" for the game, he was battling his ass off against the opposing team's best lineups, trying to stop runs and keep us in the game. The lineups that are trying to push the pace and beat you. Bonner got his minutes against the worst lineup on the floor and the Spurs happened to get a run in. +/- sometimes becomes a little deceptive when guys come off the bench and don't play as much as the starters. That's why looking at their GameScore is important too.

And I think you mean every series until after the 2nd round. He had a negative +/- in our sweep against the Grizzlies too, along with a still declining GameScore.

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You're misconstruing what I'm saying. I didn't say Parker wasn't great or played any worse than Manu in any series. I'm stating that in the Warriors series we couldn't make the difference with our starters, even if they were playing absolutely great, and levels above than the bench guys. Simply because the other teams starters were matching that production. Take a look again at the +/- in the Warriors series, and it's the bench guys + Kawhi that completely put us over the top.

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Like I already said, the Warriors had a soft bench and ran their starters into the ground. I'm not surprised our team, who instead of stacking the top of their roster with stars looks to have a more balanced attack by having a better 2nd unit, that they did well against tired Warriors and guys who didn't get much playing time.

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I would've agreed with this with Manu's role a few years ago, where he looked more for his own individual numbers than trying to get everyone involved. Not this season though. Could he have put better individual numbers? Sure. But the Spurs needed production from other players than can't create anything for themselves, and by just playing Manu in the lineup with them, he made a huge difference. This is clearly reflected in the +/- numbers. Which personally I think also a part of the reason why the fall was so severe in the Finals... Manu individually was pretty bad, but all the other guys he created for were too. It was just a really bad combo that the Spurs couldn't exploit in that series.

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So now you're blaming everyone else for not doing well? Don't break out the Kobefan argument man. :\ They couldn't do anything because Manu kept turning the ball over and being sloppy. He also had to go against a team with a good bench for once. Notice how as opposing team's benches got better, Manu started to look worse and worse in that role.

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Completely disagree with this too. I don't think you just throw CJ or DeColo in there and we get the same production from the bench. Actually, seeing both of them extensively during the season, I would argue we do not.

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I didn't say Nando or Corey could replace Manu and get the same production. I'm saying we need to bring in someone like Jarret Jack or Nate Robinson to do it. The one time I mentioned that I'd rather use Joseph than Manu was game 6 (and I think that was in another thread). I've NEVER mentioned De Colo as a real option because I think he is a terrible player with no future. I have been listing De Colo as a bottom 3 worst Spur on the roster for nearly half a year.

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I have no problem with him with being option #1 off the bench at all, but he can't be the backup PG against certain teams that pressure the ball as much. I rather we get his offense off the ball, through screens, etc. But we need to have a solid ball handler for that, and another player that commands certain attention so Manu isn't the only person the other team's defense has to focus on. I also think his shooting in general was an aberration, and he can work his way into getting that back in serviceable form. He was damn bad on floaters all season long, a shot he hit at a high rate just a season ago.

But obviously, he has to decide to come back for that to happen.

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I have a huge problem with it because he failed miserably at it when it mattered most. If we go deep into the playoffs with Ginobili as our primary backup ballhandler agaim, we will lose again and he will again be one of the main 2-3 reasons why. I'm also wanting him as our primary scoring option off the bench too since so much of his offensive game requires him having the ball.

The weirdest thing about Manu though is how off his shot was. Dude used to be a beast with shooting, now he's one of the worst shooters on the team besides our bigs. I always thought jumpshots never left shooters, but he's been bricking free throws and threes and rarely hits a stepback mid ranger anymore. Tony, Danny, and Gary are all better shooters now. Only Kawhi is less reliable but that may change if he works hard on it this offseason. Namely working on catching and shooting the ball faster. His catch and release takes so long. Dude has to be WIDE open to get a shot off. Similar to Manu actually, his shot is a tad slow. Neal, Green, and Parker can shoot from the inside of a matchbox.

I would really like Jack or Nate. Jack before Nate due to size and killer instinct. Nate is a bit of a joker and at times a chucker so it might not fly with Pop. Still, I think it'd be nice to have our 2nd unit come out and our backup PG will still ram the ball down your throat like Tony does. We could really have a high octane 2nd unit if we added a new PG (with Manu at SG).

The more I think about it, the more I feel it needs to happen tbh. Our team would be hugely upgraded if we had Nate Robinson or Jarret Jack.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

It isn't a wash since Parker was doing a hell of a lot more work than Manu. Steph Curry was annihilating us and looking like the best player in the playoffs. Parker playing him even was a win in and of itself. You can't just brush his play under the rug, he was playing better than Manu. Their bench didn't have a lot as they ran their starters into the ground with minutes played. Manu had pretty much the most cushy role on the team.

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:lol here you go starting off again on the wrong argument. This isn't a comparison between Manu and Tony, just stop with that. As you state, win or not, Tony was able to play Curry even. That's not enough to win the series, as amazing as Tony was playing (which he was). The point is, as hard as Tony was working, he wasn't making that much of a difference against the Warriors starters. It's not all on Tony. Danny Green was also abysmal with the starters. About as bad as Manu in the Finals, production-wise. Matchup-wise, their starters could match our starter's production. Without our bench producing as it did, I'm not sold we move on. As a matter of fact, the numbers say we likely do not.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

Kind of a strawman there. Not that many people ignore Manu's playmaking. His playmaking isn't better than Parker's (though it's more aggressive and risky). I don't think "any" player can fill the role, that's why I said we needed to bring someone in. We don't have anyone else who can do it.

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I'm not saying that you do. But this board is plastered with people that do indeed think that if Manu isn't scoring, he isn't doing anything at all. That guys like Splitter can produce the same way without having a guy out there drawing the attention that Manu does.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

They do go well together. We can look at a box score after a game and see that Matt Bonner has a +/- of +6, and that Parker has one of +2. Three times as good as Parker. Then you might think, hey Bonner helped the team more right~? Except he played 5 minutes and was 0-2, with no rebounds or assists. Meanwhile Parker had 32 points on 55% shooting, 7 assists and 4 rebounds and only 2 turnovers.

Parker wasn't magically "a wash" for the game, he was battling his ass off against the opposing team's best lineups, trying to stop runs and keep us in the game. The lineups that are trying to push the pace and beat you. Bonner got his minutes against the worst lineup on the floor and the Spurs happened to get a run in. +/- sometimes becomes a little deceptive when guys come off the bench and don't play as much as the starters. That's why looking at their GameScore is important too.

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That's a typical case of small sample sizes. It's not the case here.

Plus Gamescore doesn't take into account that perhaps Tony was dominating because Bonner was drawing somebody's attention. That's the difference of comparing lineup stats vs individual stats.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

And I think you mean every series until after the 2nd round. He had a negative +/- in our sweep against the Grizzlies too, along with a still declining GameScore.

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+2, +2, +13, +8... where's the negative? You posted it previously in this thread. He was +25 for the series. The next best guy was Splitter with +14. The next best guard was CJ with +3.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

Like I already said, the Warriors had a soft bench and ran their starters into the ground. I'm not surprised our team, who instead of stacking the top of their roster with stars looks to have a more balanced attack by having a better 2nd unit, that they did well against tired Warriors and guys who didn't get much playing time.

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Well, Jarret Jack was an integral part of that Warriors bench. Just pointing it out for those that are enamored with him. And there's a lot of what ifs, especially if David Lee would've been available for them.
But whether their starters were run to the ground or not is immaterial. In that series, the bench guys, not our starters, were the guys with the much better production differential. By far. And outside Game 5, there were no blowouts that would inflate those numbers.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

So now you're blaming everyone else for not doing well? Don't break out the Kobefan argument man. :\ They couldn't do anything because Manu kept turning the ball over and being sloppy. He also had to go against a team with a good bench for once. Notice how as opposing team's benches got better, Manu started to look worse and worse in that role.

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Ehhh, no. But conversely, you can't tell me that when our bench does extremely well, it's because the other team's starters are being run into the ground, tbh... The reality is that the Spurs are the epitome of team play. If any of the parts start struggling, it's going to affect much more than any other team. It's a two way street. When Manu is turning the ball over, both Manu and Tiago (who was running the pick and roll with him) look like shit. They both get the -2 or -3. When Tiago gets his shit blocked back to back on the basket, also both Manu and Tiago look like shit. It's what happens when you rely on lineup combos (or system) much more than individual play. Manu was was pretty bad in the Finals. There's nothing to spin there.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

I didn't say Nando or Corey could replace Manu and get the same production. I'm saying we need to bring in someone like Jarret Jack or Nate Robinson to do it. The one time I mentioned that I'd rather use Joseph than Manu was game 6 (and I think that was in another thread). I've NEVER mentioned De Colo as a real option because I think he is a terrible player with no future. I have been listing De Colo as a bottom 3 worst Spur on the roster for nearly half a year.

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Neal either, BTW, who was abysmal in the Grizzlies series, and pretty damn bad in the Finals outside of Game 3, and he didn't even have to actually run point. I'm onboard with bringing a solid backup PG, so Manu can play SG.
I don't subscribe we're a better team by replacing Manu with those guys, but I do think we're a better team by adding one of them to our second unit as a backup PG.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

I have a huge problem with it because he failed miserably at it when it mattered most. If we go deep into the playoffs with Ginobili as our primary backup ballhandler agaim, we will lose again and he will again be one of the main 2-3 reasons why. I'm also wanting him as our primary scoring option off the bench too since so much of his offensive game requires him having the ball.

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But where you're going wrong is the thought he needs to be the backup ball handler to be the #1 option. Manu played just SG in the Spurs before and we've run many plays for him off the ball (ie: curl off the right baseline). I'm not advocating we need to do the same as we did this season, I'm actually on board on having an actual backup PG. I think the Spurs have been thinking about that for a while too, it just happened that no-one materialized. We need more players in the second unit that command certain degree of attention. Otherwise, if you erase Manu, our second unit offense goes to shit.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

The weirdest thing about Manu though is how off his shot was. Dude used to be a beast with shooting, now he's one of the worst shooters on the team besides our bigs. I always thought jumpshots never left shooters, but he's been bricking free throws and threes and rarely hits a stepback mid ranger anymore. Tony, Danny, and Gary are all better shooters now. Only Kawhi is less reliable but that may change if he works hard on it this offseason. Namely working on catching and shooting the ball faster. His catch and release takes so long. Dude has to be WIDE open to get a shot off. Similar to Manu actually, his shot is a tad slow. Neal, Green, and Parker can shoot from the inside of a matchbox.

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His shot was abysmal since his hamstring injury for some reason. His regular season %s aren't even his career low or anything like that. His playoffs %s definitely are. I don't want to pin it on anything, I just know you don't forget how to shoot after a 20 year career. I'm pretty confident that he can at least get back to his usual %s, which are not otherwordly, but are much better than what we saw in the postseason.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

I would really like Jack or Nate. Jack before Nate due to size and killer instinct. Nate is a bit of a joker and at times a chucker so it might not fly with Pop. Still, I think it'd be nice to have our 2nd unit come out and our backup PG will still ram the ball down your throat like Tony does. We could really have a high octane 2nd unit if we added a new PG (with Manu at SG).

The more I think about it, the more I feel it needs to happen tbh. Our team would be hugely upgraded if we had Nate Robinson or Jarret Jack.

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I'm onboard with it. While I like CJ a lot, I don't think he's aggressive enough on offense, and we're at the point where I don't know we can just sit and wait to see what happens. We did that last season and we ended up with no actual natural backup PG.

Manu Ginobili is dead to me. Fuck him. He can take his bloated salary elsewhere.

I hope Manu ruptures his achilles, tbh.

The Spurs should have traded Manu after the 2007 title. 4 years in a row after that injured.

I don't mind Manu game 7. Game 6 was the nail in the coffin

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Originally Posted by ElNono

In a way, I think we're somewhat at a similar juncture as we were with Tim a few seasons ago. You couldn't just throw stiffs (ie: Bonner) with Tim and expect him to keep carrying the load. He needed help, and Tiago and Kawhi provided that. And I think this is the same juncture with Manu. He needs some help, having other players commanding enough attention to help him open up his game, especially on that second unit, IMO.

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Problem is you can't help him from himself. Only Pop can and he won't, that's how you have Manu in the game as the lone member of the big 3 vs the best defense in the league turning it over for the 8th time...

The problem with Manu is that redefining is role is not that easy since his own coach doesn't seem to have a clue in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

How is that a wash? TP was going toe to toe with the toughest lineups and players the Warriors had, while Manu always got 100% of the minutes against their worst lineups.

For example, game 3 against the Warriors, Parker players 35 minutes and scores 32 points on 57% FG% and 50$ 3pt% shooting with 5 boards and assists thrown in. His +/- was -6.

Manu played 27 1/2 minutes, scoring only 12 points with 5 boards and 4 assists. He had a +13 +/-.

Using the GameScore stat in addition to +/-, it begins to come clear how much more Parker was impacting the game. The stats are best when used together.

10.0 GameScore is considered "average". In 21 postseason games, Parker was below 10 5 times, once was 9.9, so basically 4 times. Only one of those four times was below 5.0 (4.5 the last game against the Warriors where he was hobbled with the calf injury and everyone was scaed he might've gone down for the postseason.). He cracked 20 GameScore 6 times, and almost got to 30 once (29.3, game 4 at Memphis)

Ginobili managed to crack 10 just 7 of 21 times. 3 of those 7 were barely at or above 10 (10, 10.8, 12.2). Only a single game with a GameScore over 20 (game 5 Finals, 21.0). Under 1.0 four times. Even under 0 once.
Here's a list of their total GameScores:

Parker vs Lakers: 73.3 (18.3 average)
Parker vs Warriors: 92.1 (15.35 average)
Parker vs Grizzlies: 80.5 (20.1 average)
Parker vs Heat: 78.3 (11.2 average)
Total: 324.2 (15.4 average, rounded down from 15.438)

Ginobili vs Lakers: 43.7 (10.9 average)
Ginobili vs Warriors: 58.8 (9.8 average)
Ginobili vs Grizzlies: 33.0 (8.25 average)
Ginobili vs Heat: 46.7 (6.67 average)
Total: 182.2 (8.7 average, rounded up from 8.676)

Long story short, Parker was keeping us afloat against the toughest runs by the opposing team. Manu rarely had to face it except when on the court with Tony and Timmy. And that's with Parker battling through the hamstring problem in the Finals, and the calf injury in the 2nd round. Tony had a much larger positive impact on every series than Manu did. Total difference being almost nearly double in Parker's favor even with battling through a couple injuries.

Manu didn't just shit the bed in the Finals, he was average in the first two rounds statistically and below average in the WCF then shit in the Finals. The average NBA player has a 10.0 GameScore and would have a positive +/- just by being on the Spurs. Now look at Manu's GameScore and +/-.

Yeah he shat the bed, but he wasn't some huge force in getting us there either. We need someone who can fill his role and do it better, we don't specifically need him anymore. He's not getting it done and he was steadily slipping the longer the postseason went. Meanwhile Parker stepped up his game against the Grizzlies and Duncan got stronger. Fuck even Green, Leonard, Diaw, and Neal all got better as the postseason went on. Everyone but Manu and Splitter.

Like I said, I'll take Manu back, but definitely not in the role he's been in. We need someone else, and technically we don't even need him anymore if we had someone else. But I'll take him back as an insurance policy and as a 2nd option off the bench rather than 1st.

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Good post This sums it all up.

If you look back to last year you will see manu did not do well in the playoffs against OK City. timvp broke it down and manus numbers did not look good.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

It's going to be a long, long offseason...

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Actually It will be one of the shortest offseason in spurs history. Still gonna be long though

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Originally Posted by rascal

Good post This sums it all up.

If you look back to last year you will see manu did not do well in the playoffs against OK City. timvp broke it down and manus numbers did not look good.

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He did good against OKC half the time. Unfortunately, he was good at SA and TERRIBLE at OKC. . .and let Harden destroy him every single game. :( If only Manu played good half the time against Miami, we might've won. Instead of 1/7, or 1.5/7 if you want to give him credit for game 7.

Nope. Hang em up Manu and go play with your twins. You have turned into a spaz. Your body is susceptible to injury. The coach is too stupid to sit you when you go into seizure mode, and i cannot bear to watch you cost the team any more. You can't be counted on to make critical free throws in the season or in the post season. You spill your guts to the media as if you were in a psychiatrist's office laying on the couch. Your passes find ankles, knees, and the first row instead of a teammate. I have loved watching you play over the years but now is the time to head to splitsville. Go make shitty commercials in Argentina. Let the Spurs spend their $ on someone who can make a consistent positive impact. Please hang them up.

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Originally Posted by Baam

Problem is you can't help him from himself. Only Pop can and he won't, that's how you have Manu in the game as the lone member of the big 3 vs the best defense in the league turning it over for the 8th time...

The problem with Manu is that redefining is role is not that easy since his own coach doesn't seem to have a clue in the first place.

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+1

tbh, I appreciate the exchange of opinions with Kidd K, even though we clearly don't agree... :toast

I'm certainly glad Manu will be back, and hopefully with some pickup in the offseason to anchor the bench a bit better, we'll be in good shape.

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Originally Posted by superbigtime

Nope. Hang em up Manu and go play with your twins. You have turned into a spaz. Your body is susceptible to injury. The coach is too stupid to sit you when you go into seizure mode, and i cannot bear to watch you cost the team any more. You can't be counted on to make critical free throws in the season or in the post season. You spill your guts to the media as if you were in a psychiatrist's office laying on the couch. Your passes find ankles, knees, and the first row instead of a teammate. I have loved watching you play over the years but now is the time to head to splitsville. Go make shitty commercials in Argentina. Let the Spurs spend their $ on someone who can make a consistent positive impact. Please hang them up.

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:toast Wells said. We should all make a petition so that Manu can retire.

Would of easily won with 03 and 04 Manu
13 Manu was disaster.

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

:toast Wells said. We should all make a petition so that Manu can retire.

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Where do I sign?

Manu didn't cost us the series. That's the truth.

At worse Pop would be the guilty for play him.

Anyway Manu was not the worst of the big3 in G7.

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Originally Posted by Josepatches_

Manu didn't cost us the series. That's the truth.

At worse Pop would be the guilty for play him.

Anyway Manu was not the worst of the big3 in G7.

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mmm, crack.