To all the idiots blaming Manu for Game 7; I bet you'd be upset to see Manu jump ship

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

It isn't a wash since Parker was doing a hell of a lot more work than Manu. Steph Curry was annihilating us and looking like the best player in the playoffs. Parker playing him even was a win in and of itself. You can't just brush his play under the rug, he was playing better than Manu. Their bench didn't have a lot as they ran their starters into the ground with minutes played. Manu had pretty much the most cushy role on the team.

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:lol here you go starting off again on the wrong argument. This isn't a comparison between Manu and Tony, just stop with that. As you state, win or not, Tony was able to play Curry even. That's not enough to win the series, as amazing as Tony was playing (which he was). The point is, as hard as Tony was working, he wasn't making that much of a difference against the Warriors starters. It's not all on Tony. Danny Green was also abysmal with the starters. About as bad as Manu in the Finals, production-wise. Matchup-wise, their starters could match our starter's production. Without our bench producing as it did, I'm not sold we move on. As a matter of fact, the numbers say we likely do not.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

Kind of a strawman there. Not that many people ignore Manu's playmaking. His playmaking isn't better than Parker's (though it's more aggressive and risky). I don't think "any" player can fill the role, that's why I said we needed to bring someone in. We don't have anyone else who can do it.

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I'm not saying that you do. But this board is plastered with people that do indeed think that if Manu isn't scoring, he isn't doing anything at all. That guys like Splitter can produce the same way without having a guy out there drawing the attention that Manu does.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

They do go well together. We can look at a box score after a game and see that Matt Bonner has a +/- of +6, and that Parker has one of +2. Three times as good as Parker. Then you might think, hey Bonner helped the team more right~? Except he played 5 minutes and was 0-2, with no rebounds or assists. Meanwhile Parker had 32 points on 55% shooting, 7 assists and 4 rebounds and only 2 turnovers.

Parker wasn't magically "a wash" for the game, he was battling his ass off against the opposing team's best lineups, trying to stop runs and keep us in the game. The lineups that are trying to push the pace and beat you. Bonner got his minutes against the worst lineup on the floor and the Spurs happened to get a run in. +/- sometimes becomes a little deceptive when guys come off the bench and don't play as much as the starters. That's why looking at their GameScore is important too.

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That's a typical case of small sample sizes. It's not the case here.

Plus Gamescore doesn't take into account that perhaps Tony was dominating because Bonner was drawing somebody's attention. That's the difference of comparing lineup stats vs individual stats.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

And I think you mean every series until after the 2nd round. He had a negative +/- in our sweep against the Grizzlies too, along with a still declining GameScore.

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+2, +2, +13, +8... where's the negative? You posted it previously in this thread. He was +25 for the series. The next best guy was Splitter with +14. The next best guard was CJ with +3.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

Like I already said, the Warriors had a soft bench and ran their starters into the ground. I'm not surprised our team, who instead of stacking the top of their roster with stars looks to have a more balanced attack by having a better 2nd unit, that they did well against tired Warriors and guys who didn't get much playing time.

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Well, Jarret Jack was an integral part of that Warriors bench. Just pointing it out for those that are enamored with him. And there's a lot of what ifs, especially if David Lee would've been available for them.
But whether their starters were run to the ground or not is immaterial. In that series, the bench guys, not our starters, were the guys with the much better production differential. By far. And outside Game 5, there were no blowouts that would inflate those numbers.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

So now you're blaming everyone else for not doing well? Don't break out the Kobefan argument man. :\ They couldn't do anything because Manu kept turning the ball over and being sloppy. He also had to go against a team with a good bench for once. Notice how as opposing team's benches got better, Manu started to look worse and worse in that role.

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Ehhh, no. But conversely, you can't tell me that when our bench does extremely well, it's because the other team's starters are being run into the ground, tbh... The reality is that the Spurs are the epitome of team play. If any of the parts start struggling, it's going to affect much more than any other team. It's a two way street. When Manu is turning the ball over, both Manu and Tiago (who was running the pick and roll with him) look like shit. They both get the -2 or -3. When Tiago gets his shit blocked back to back on the basket, also both Manu and Tiago look like shit. It's what happens when you rely on lineup combos (or system) much more than individual play. Manu was was pretty bad in the Finals. There's nothing to spin there.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

I didn't say Nando or Corey could replace Manu and get the same production. I'm saying we need to bring in someone like Jarret Jack or Nate Robinson to do it. The one time I mentioned that I'd rather use Joseph than Manu was game 6 (and I think that was in another thread). I've NEVER mentioned De Colo as a real option because I think he is a terrible player with no future. I have been listing De Colo as a bottom 3 worst Spur on the roster for nearly half a year.

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Neal either, BTW, who was abysmal in the Grizzlies series, and pretty damn bad in the Finals outside of Game 3, and he didn't even have to actually run point. I'm onboard with bringing a solid backup PG, so Manu can play SG.
I don't subscribe we're a better team by replacing Manu with those guys, but I do think we're a better team by adding one of them to our second unit as a backup PG.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

I have a huge problem with it because he failed miserably at it when it mattered most. If we go deep into the playoffs with Ginobili as our primary backup ballhandler agaim, we will lose again and he will again be one of the main 2-3 reasons why. I'm also wanting him as our primary scoring option off the bench too since so much of his offensive game requires him having the ball.

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But where you're going wrong is the thought he needs to be the backup ball handler to be the #1 option. Manu played just SG in the Spurs before and we've run many plays for him off the ball (ie: curl off the right baseline). I'm not advocating we need to do the same as we did this season, I'm actually on board on having an actual backup PG. I think the Spurs have been thinking about that for a while too, it just happened that no-one materialized. We need more players in the second unit that command certain degree of attention. Otherwise, if you erase Manu, our second unit offense goes to shit.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

The weirdest thing about Manu though is how off his shot was. Dude used to be a beast with shooting, now he's one of the worst shooters on the team besides our bigs. I always thought jumpshots never left shooters, but he's been bricking free throws and threes and rarely hits a stepback mid ranger anymore. Tony, Danny, and Gary are all better shooters now. Only Kawhi is less reliable but that may change if he works hard on it this offseason. Namely working on catching and shooting the ball faster. His catch and release takes so long. Dude has to be WIDE open to get a shot off. Similar to Manu actually, his shot is a tad slow. Neal, Green, and Parker can shoot from the inside of a matchbox.

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His shot was abysmal since his hamstring injury for some reason. His regular season %s aren't even his career low or anything like that. His playoffs %s definitely are. I don't want to pin it on anything, I just know you don't forget how to shoot after a 20 year career. I'm pretty confident that he can at least get back to his usual %s, which are not otherwordly, but are much better than what we saw in the postseason.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

I would really like Jack or Nate. Jack before Nate due to size and killer instinct. Nate is a bit of a joker and at times a chucker so it might not fly with Pop. Still, I think it'd be nice to have our 2nd unit come out and our backup PG will still ram the ball down your throat like Tony does. We could really have a high octane 2nd unit if we added a new PG (with Manu at SG).

The more I think about it, the more I feel it needs to happen tbh. Our team would be hugely upgraded if we had Nate Robinson or Jarret Jack.

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I'm onboard with it. While I like CJ a lot, I don't think he's aggressive enough on offense, and we're at the point where I don't know we can just sit and wait to see what happens. We did that last season and we ended up with no actual natural backup PG.

Manu Ginobili is dead to me. Fuck him. He can take his bloated salary elsewhere.

I hope Manu ruptures his achilles, tbh.

The Spurs should have traded Manu after the 2007 title. 4 years in a row after that injured.

I don't mind Manu game 7. Game 6 was the nail in the coffin

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Originally Posted by ElNono

In a way, I think we're somewhat at a similar juncture as we were with Tim a few seasons ago. You couldn't just throw stiffs (ie: Bonner) with Tim and expect him to keep carrying the load. He needed help, and Tiago and Kawhi provided that. And I think this is the same juncture with Manu. He needs some help, having other players commanding enough attention to help him open up his game, especially on that second unit, IMO.

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Problem is you can't help him from himself. Only Pop can and he won't, that's how you have Manu in the game as the lone member of the big 3 vs the best defense in the league turning it over for the 8th time...

The problem with Manu is that redefining is role is not that easy since his own coach doesn't seem to have a clue in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

How is that a wash? TP was going toe to toe with the toughest lineups and players the Warriors had, while Manu always got 100% of the minutes against their worst lineups.

For example, game 3 against the Warriors, Parker players 35 minutes and scores 32 points on 57% FG% and 50$ 3pt% shooting with 5 boards and assists thrown in. His +/- was -6.

Manu played 27 1/2 minutes, scoring only 12 points with 5 boards and 4 assists. He had a +13 +/-.

Using the GameScore stat in addition to +/-, it begins to come clear how much more Parker was impacting the game. The stats are best when used together.

10.0 GameScore is considered "average". In 21 postseason games, Parker was below 10 5 times, once was 9.9, so basically 4 times. Only one of those four times was below 5.0 (4.5 the last game against the Warriors where he was hobbled with the calf injury and everyone was scaed he might've gone down for the postseason.). He cracked 20 GameScore 6 times, and almost got to 30 once (29.3, game 4 at Memphis)

Ginobili managed to crack 10 just 7 of 21 times. 3 of those 7 were barely at or above 10 (10, 10.8, 12.2). Only a single game with a GameScore over 20 (game 5 Finals, 21.0). Under 1.0 four times. Even under 0 once.
Here's a list of their total GameScores:

Parker vs Lakers: 73.3 (18.3 average)
Parker vs Warriors: 92.1 (15.35 average)
Parker vs Grizzlies: 80.5 (20.1 average)
Parker vs Heat: 78.3 (11.2 average)
Total: 324.2 (15.4 average, rounded down from 15.438)

Ginobili vs Lakers: 43.7 (10.9 average)
Ginobili vs Warriors: 58.8 (9.8 average)
Ginobili vs Grizzlies: 33.0 (8.25 average)
Ginobili vs Heat: 46.7 (6.67 average)
Total: 182.2 (8.7 average, rounded up from 8.676)

Long story short, Parker was keeping us afloat against the toughest runs by the opposing team. Manu rarely had to face it except when on the court with Tony and Timmy. And that's with Parker battling through the hamstring problem in the Finals, and the calf injury in the 2nd round. Tony had a much larger positive impact on every series than Manu did. Total difference being almost nearly double in Parker's favor even with battling through a couple injuries.

Manu didn't just shit the bed in the Finals, he was average in the first two rounds statistically and below average in the WCF then shit in the Finals. The average NBA player has a 10.0 GameScore and would have a positive +/- just by being on the Spurs. Now look at Manu's GameScore and +/-.

Yeah he shat the bed, but he wasn't some huge force in getting us there either. We need someone who can fill his role and do it better, we don't specifically need him anymore. He's not getting it done and he was steadily slipping the longer the postseason went. Meanwhile Parker stepped up his game against the Grizzlies and Duncan got stronger. Fuck even Green, Leonard, Diaw, and Neal all got better as the postseason went on. Everyone but Manu and Splitter.

Like I said, I'll take Manu back, but definitely not in the role he's been in. We need someone else, and technically we don't even need him anymore if we had someone else. But I'll take him back as an insurance policy and as a 2nd option off the bench rather than 1st.

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Good post This sums it all up.

If you look back to last year you will see manu did not do well in the playoffs against OK City. timvp broke it down and manus numbers did not look good.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

It's going to be a long, long offseason...

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Actually It will be one of the shortest offseason in spurs history. Still gonna be long though

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Originally Posted by rascal

Good post This sums it all up.

If you look back to last year you will see manu did not do well in the playoffs against OK City. timvp broke it down and manus numbers did not look good.

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He did good against OKC half the time. Unfortunately, he was good at SA and TERRIBLE at OKC. . .and let Harden destroy him every single game. :( If only Manu played good half the time against Miami, we might've won. Instead of 1/7, or 1.5/7 if you want to give him credit for game 7.

Nope. Hang em up Manu and go play with your twins. You have turned into a spaz. Your body is susceptible to injury. The coach is too stupid to sit you when you go into seizure mode, and i cannot bear to watch you cost the team any more. You can't be counted on to make critical free throws in the season or in the post season. You spill your guts to the media as if you were in a psychiatrist's office laying on the couch. Your passes find ankles, knees, and the first row instead of a teammate. I have loved watching you play over the years but now is the time to head to splitsville. Go make shitty commercials in Argentina. Let the Spurs spend their $ on someone who can make a consistent positive impact. Please hang them up.

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Originally Posted by Baam

Problem is you can't help him from himself. Only Pop can and he won't, that's how you have Manu in the game as the lone member of the big 3 vs the best defense in the league turning it over for the 8th time...

The problem with Manu is that redefining is role is not that easy since his own coach doesn't seem to have a clue in the first place.

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+1

tbh, I appreciate the exchange of opinions with Kidd K, even though we clearly don't agree... :toast

I'm certainly glad Manu will be back, and hopefully with some pickup in the offseason to anchor the bench a bit better, we'll be in good shape.

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Originally Posted by superbigtime

Nope. Hang em up Manu and go play with your twins. You have turned into a spaz. Your body is susceptible to injury. The coach is too stupid to sit you when you go into seizure mode, and i cannot bear to watch you cost the team any more. You can't be counted on to make critical free throws in the season or in the post season. You spill your guts to the media as if you were in a psychiatrist's office laying on the couch. Your passes find ankles, knees, and the first row instead of a teammate. I have loved watching you play over the years but now is the time to head to splitsville. Go make shitty commercials in Argentina. Let the Spurs spend their $ on someone who can make a consistent positive impact. Please hang them up.

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:toast Wells said. We should all make a petition so that Manu can retire.

Would of easily won with 03 and 04 Manu
13 Manu was disaster.

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

:toast Wells said. We should all make a petition so that Manu can retire.

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Where do I sign?

Manu didn't cost us the series. That's the truth.

At worse Pop would be the guilty for play him.

Anyway Manu was not the worst of the big3 in G7.

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Originally Posted by Josepatches_

Manu didn't cost us the series. That's the truth.

At worse Pop would be the guilty for play him.

Anyway Manu was not the worst of the big3 in G7.

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mmm, crack.