The truth about Manu Ginobili's turnovers

For all those Manu haters, here you have.

Dispelling the "Turnobili" Myth.
http://www.poundingtherock.com/2013/.../nba-palyoffs-

If you don't want to see that link, check this out:

Through 19 playoff games Ginobili had 43 turnovers. That's 2.26 per, well below his career average of 2.5 turnovers per postseason game and in line with his career regular season average of 2.1 turnovers per game.
In fact, even when you include the final two games, Ginobili averaged 2.6 turnovers per playoff game in 2012-2013. That's LESS than the past four playoffs, when he averaged 2.8, 3.0, 3.4, and 3.0 turnovers per contest. In 2004-05, generally regarded as the best playoffs of Ginobili's career, he averaged 2.9 turnovers per game.
Through 19 games, with 97 assists and 43 turnovers Ginobili had an assist-to-turnover ratio of 2.25, which was well above his career postseason average of 1.9 and even after the two bad games it was still at 2.08. His average of five assists per game in the playoffs was also the second-best of his career.

Manu will be back next season.

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Originally Posted by Diego20

For all those Manu haters, here you have.

Dispelling the "Turnobili" Myth.
http://www.poundingtherock.com/2013/.../nba-palyoffs-

If you don't want to see that link, check this out:

Through 19 playoff games Ginobili had 43 turnovers. That's 2.26 per, well below his career average of 2.5 turnovers per postseason game and in line with his career regular season average of 2.1 turnovers per game.
In fact, even when you include the final two games, Ginobili averaged 2.6 turnovers per playoff game in 2012-2013. That's LESS than the past four playoffs, when he averaged 2.8, 3.0, 3.4, and 3.0 turnovers per contest. In 2004-05, generally regarded as the best playoffs of Ginobili's career, he averaged 2.9 turnovers per game.
Through 19 games, with 97 assists and 43 turnovers Ginobili had an assist-to-turnover ratio of 2.25, which was well above his career postseason average of 1.9 and even after the two bad games it was still at 2.08. His average of five assists per game in the playoffs was also the second-best of his career.

Manu will be back next season.

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He chocked in the NBA finals so that article don't mean sh*t.

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

This.

Enough of this loyatly BS. If Manu really wants to play another year and retire as a Spur, then he can play for the veteran's minimum at a very reduced role. He won't go to another team because he knows he wouldn't last. If he changes teams then he will be overplayed in minutes, he will get more injuries, and he will play as bad as the Game 6 Manu or worst.

I agree that business is business. Life goes on. One can't stay living in the past. Stop throwing the "three championships or three rings thanks to Manu" bullsh*t because Tim Duncan is the main reason why the Spurs are even good and have been good for the past 15 years. Without Tim Duncan, Manu would just be an above average player, Parker would be an above average PG, Pop wouldn't even be a Hall of Fame coach, and most importantly the Spurs would have ZERO championships.

So fu*k Manu. He can retire for all I care. He already cost Timmy two championships or even three if you want to include the Derek Fisher shot. Enough of this loyalty BS from you Manu lovers.

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

If Pop thinks like you then I guarantee you that the Spurs are NOT winning the championship next year. Manu plays like a scrub now. He's washed up. The man just wants to be with his family. He doesn't enjoy basketball anymore. Basketball is like a job to him now and not a passion. If he really cared about winning, he would work on his diet and body this offseason.

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?
really? 8 turnovers in a single game is not bad for you because in the previus game he didnt had one? really? is that how you think it is?

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Originally Posted by rayweb_on

?
really? 8 turnovers in a single game is not bad for you because in the previus game he didnt had one? really? is that how you think it is?

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That was only one game bro, it's not like he has 8 turnovers per game. And turnovers mean nothing if the other team does not score inmediately

Again, if you think 8 turnovers in a single game is too bad, then scoring 100 points in ONE GAME and 0 points in the previous 15 games that's being A VEEEEEEEERY GOOD PLAYER BRO!!

That stats are on par, but he played terrible when it mattered the most. That is obviously very bad. He and Parker both shat the bed. The only difference is no one is upset with Parker. Even though Parker is only 31 and Manu is 35. Double standard for sure. But at the same time, Manu wasn't scoring a whole lot. When he is scoring more, you can deal with his turnovers. We didn't get nearly enough from 2 of our big 3. The Spurs would be wise to make some upgrades somewhere on the court....

Most Turnovers in NBA History by Player

1. Karl Malone - 4,524

Karl Malone turned the ball over an all-time high of 4,524 times in his 19 year NBA career. He only led the league once in a season in turnovers, and his being number one on the list is mainly because he played so many games in his career. Still, he averaged 3.1 turnovers per game.

For comparison purposes, that is about the same average number of turnovers per game that Dwight Howard has so far in his career.

In the playoffs, Malone averaged 2.85 turnovers per game. A much better rate than he had during regular season play.

2. John Stockton - 4,244

Malone's long-time Utah Jazz teammate, John Stockton, is number two all-time in turnovers with 4,244. Stockton also had a very long career, and that is mainly why he is on this list. Stockton averaged 2.82 turnovers per game, which is the lowest per game turnover rate on this list.

Stockton averaged 2.84 turnovers per playoff game in his career. Just about the same rate as during regular season play.

3. Jason Kidd(notes) - 3,836

So far in his career, Jason Kidd has 3,836 turnovers in his career. Kidd has played in 1,267 games and has averaged 3.03 turnovers per game played. Kidd has led the league twice in turnovers so far in his career, including in 2001-02 when he played for my Nets team.

In the playoffs in his career, Jason Kidd is averaging 3.02 turnovers per game. In both 2002 and 2003, Kidd led my Nets to the NBA Finals. He turned the ball over 146 total times in 40 games in the playoffs over those two years. That's 3.70 turnovers per playoff game. The Nets lost both times in the finals, but we were never sniffing the NBA Finals those two years without the great play of Jason Kidd.

In the 2011 post-season, Jason Kidd has just 25 turnovers in 10 games played. His Dallas Mavericks shocked the NBA by sweeping the two-time defending champion Los Angeles Lakers right out of the playoffs.

4. Moses Malone - 3,804

Moses Malone turned the ball over 3,804 times in 1,329 NBA games. So his turnover average per game was 3.05. Malone was a great playoff competitor, and in the NBA playoffs he turned the ball over 215 times in 94 games. A 2.29 average, which is much better than his regular season average. Clearly, Malone was more careful, and more efficient, with the basketball in the playoffs.

5. Isiah Thomas - 3,682

Isiah Thomas turned the ball over 3,682 times in his career in 979 games played. So he averaged 3.76 turnovers per game. That is the second highest total on this list. Isiah was a bit more careful with the ball in the playoffs (369 turnovers in 111 playoff games), averaging 3.32 turnovers per game.

6. Hakeem Olajuwon - 3,667

Hakeem Olajuwon turned the ball over 3,667 times in 1,238 games played. So he averaged 2.96 turnovers per game. In the playoffs, Hakeem turned the ball over 424 times in 145 games, for a an average of 2.92. Just about the same as during regular season play.

7. Patrick Ewing - 3,537

Patrick Ewing turned the ball over 3,537 times in 1,183 games played, for an average of 2.99 turnovers per game. In the playoffs, Ewing turned the ball over 345 times in 139 games, for an average of 2.48 per game. So Ewing was more carefull with the basketball in playoffs, but still never won an NBA Championship despite all his guarantees.

8. Magic Johnson - 3,506

Magic Johnson turned the ball over 3,506 times in 906 games played. His average per game of 3.87 is the highest on this list. In the playoffs, Magic averaged 3.66 turnovers per game. A better rate than during regular season play, but still high. All the turnovers didn't stop Magic from winning five NBA Championships, and being named NBA Finals MVP three times.

9. Reggie Theus - 3,493

Reggie Theus was a pretty good NBA player, who turned the ball over a lot. Theus had 3,493 turnovers in 1,026 NBA games, for an average of 3.40 turnovers per game. He also averaged 18.5 points and 6.3 assists per game. Theus scored 19,015 points in his NBA career, but is unlikely to ever make the Basketball Hall of Fame. He finished his NBA career playing for the Nets, and I remember him as a player in love with his looks.

10. Charles Barkley - 3,376

Charles Barkley turned the ball over 3,376 times in 1,073 NBA games. So he averaged 3.15 turnovers per game. In the playoffs, Barkley averaged 2.87 turnovers per game.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-8448675

Lol

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Originally Posted by Diego20

That was only one game bro, it's not like he has 8 turnovers per game. And turnovers mean nothing if the other team does not score inmediately

Again, if you think 8 turnovers in a single game is too bad, then scoring 100 points in ONE GAME and 0 points in the previous 15 games that's being A VEEEEEEEERY GOOD PLAYER BRO!!

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ok BRO!
you really know about basketball huh?
I have been watching Manu since neuquen 2001, and he is smart and has heart ..but the in this NBA finals he just chocked, it happens BRO! part of being a true fan is to admit that you cant always win and realize what was wrong. Manu was awful like it or not BRO!

Manus turnovers are bad enough. His "we" have to play better comments are even more ridiculous. no dude, YOU have to play better. Take responsibility like Danny Green did. You single handedly cost the team the champiobship. Own up and admit it.

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Originally Posted by UZER

Manus turnovers are bad enough. His "we" have to play better comments are even more ridiculous. no dude, YOU have to play better. Take responsibility like Danny Green did. You single handedly cost the team the champiobship. Own up and admit it.

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Exactly. That motherfuc*er is stubborn. He won't admit his mistakes. Sh*t even Tim Duncan blamed himself for the championship failure because of his Game 7 missed hook shot which is totally unfair. Timmy and Kawhi put the Spurs on their backs for Games 6 and 7. I'm not too surprised about Manu's attitude TBH because Argentinians are known to be stubborn and close-minded people.

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

Exactly. That motherfuc*er is stubborn. He won't admit his mistakes. Sh*t even Tim Duncan blamed himself for the championship failure because of his Game 7 missed hook shot which is totally unfair. Timmy and Kawhi put the Spurs on their backs for Games 6 and 7. I'm not too surprised about Manu's attitude TBH because Argentinians are known to be stubborn and close-minded people.

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Huh? You only knew 2 argentinians in your f*cking life, Ginobili and Oberto, stop saying bs please and keep talking about this thread. You the Manu haters are mad cause this thread is showing the truth.

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Originally Posted by Diego20

Huh? You only knew 2 argentinians in your f*cking life, Ginobili and Oberto, stop saying bs please and keep talking about this thread. You the Manu haters are mad cause this thread is showing the truth.

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exhibit A

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Originally Posted by Diego20

Huh? You only knew 2 argentinians in your f*cking life, Ginobili and Oberto, stop saying bs please and keep talking about this thread. You the Manu haters are mad cause this thread is showing the truth.

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BTW my old job required me to deal with all types of Hispanic people around the world so I know a lot about cultures. I may be stereotyping but I know people's tendencies better than the average person. LMAO truth my a*s. People like yourself are the ones that are in denial. Manu is past his expiration date. When will reality hit you?

ginobili was bad in game 6...pop should have never playing him this long
but he was huge game 5
and overall game 7 he had a good
I thought duncan miss vs battier was more the reason for our loss in game 7 than his 2 turnovers
there was also a sequence where we stole the ball (who??) and he passed it to green or leonard for a 3 and they missed
anyone rmber this from gm 7? wish he had taken the shot himself

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Originally Posted by UZER

Manus turnovers are bad enough. His "we" have to play better comments are even more ridiculous. no dude, YOU have to play better. Take responsibility like Danny Green did. You single handedly cost the team the champiobship. Own up and admit it.

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In my opinion, saying "we lost because of my fault" is worst than saying "we lost because of all us". You wanted manu say that? WHATTTTTTTTTT?!! This is a sport team, you win together and lose together. Go play Golf or Tenis dear Uzer.

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Originally Posted by perfectdark

ginobili was bad in game 6...pop should have never playing him this long
but he was huge game 5
and overall game 7 he had a good
I thought duncan miss vs battier was more the reason for our loss in game 7 than his 2 turnovers
there was also a sequence where we stole the ball (who??) and he passed it to green or leonard for a 3 and they missed
anyone rmber this from gm 7? wish he had taken the shot himself

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Yeah I do remember it, Leonard missed the 3 point shot after a steal of Green.

The problem is not his average turnovers during the POs the problem is 8 T/Os during game 6

but once again I don't understand why people are looking scapegoats everywhere for this lost serie: manu, tp, green etc... people need probably to realize that the fact that their struggles are due to an impressive Miami D effort. Forcing T/Os is one of their main strength, they have the best perimeter defense of the nba.

Defense wins championships, MIA has a great one, and that made adjustments within the series. Pop was out-coached.

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Originally Posted by Brazil

The problem is not his average turnovers during the POs the problem is 8 T/Os during game 6

but once again I don't understand why people are looking scapegoats everywhere for this lost serie: manu, tp, green etc... people need probably to realize that the fact that their struggles are due to an impressive Miami D effort. Forcing T/Os is one of their main strength, they have the best perimeter defense of the nba.

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But they were calling him "Turnobili" even before game 6. Btw I agree with the red part.

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Originally Posted by Brazil

The problem is not his average turnovers during the POs the problem is 8 T/Os during game 6

but once again I don't understand why people are looking scapegoats everywhere for this lost serie: manu, tp, green etc... people need probably to realize that the fact that their struggles are due to an impressive Miami D effort. Forcing T/Os is one of their main strength, they have the best perimeter defense of the nba.

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Bullshit! in 2K14 Miami is nothing on defense! I already had Manu retire there and Iggy took a paycut to be here! These bozos in the FO know nothing! :madrun

brb, finishing my "retire Manu" online petition, tbh

Maybe his turnovers were lower. His reduced minutes probably contributed to that. But honestly his turnovers this postseason looked to be from poor decisions, bad passing, and bad ball handling. They stood out much worse than a typical turnover. I have always been a huge Manu fan but his poor decision making this postseason was unlike anything any of us were used to seeing on such a consistent basis.

Turnovers are only one side of the story. Ginobili also shot 40% from the field and 30% from 3 pt land and also shot a lower FT%. So not only did he average more turnovers in the playoffs, his FG%, 3PT%, and FT% all plummeted from his career averages. If that was Kobe or Lebron, Spurstalk would be laughing and taking glee in pointing at how they choked and how finished/overrated they are. Either bring Ginobili back as the 6-7th scoring option for far less money or don't bring him back at all.

There is no myth here. He was awful when it mattered most. Stats don't measure how his bad passes turned in to terrible offensive possessions. Other times, he threw the ball right to the defender who turned it in to points. There were some occasions that defenders got their hands on his passes but knocked the ball out of bounds. That's not counted as a turnover.

Eight turnovers in one game and four in the fourth quarter of a game 7 can't be ignored or explained away. Take in to account who we are talking about too. This is Manu Ginobili, a 3 time Champion and Olympic Gold Medal winner. His play was atrocious. I'm not sure he even realizes how bad he was just yet. His open letter to the Argentinian paper seemed to hint of a bit of denial. Look no further than his terrible FT shooting to see how his head was not in the game. He used to NEVER miss when they counted. It was 50-50 this year. Just bad. I'm getting pissed off just thinking about it again.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Bullshit! in 2K14 Miami is nothing on defense! I already had Manu retire there and Iggy took a paycut to be here! These bozos in the FO know nothing! :madrun

brb, finishing my "retire Manu" online petition, tbh

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NASFs are unbelievable, when you read this board it's like Spurs played Utah Jazz

I agree with the bad timing, but as Brazil and others have said, Miami deserves a lot of credit for that...

Paul George had 5 TOs in Game 5 and 6 TOs Game 6 in the ECF. David West had 6 in Game 7. Those guys are washed up too?

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Originally Posted by D-rob fan

Maybe his turnovers were lower. His reduced minutes probably contributed to that. But honestly his turnovers this postseason looked to be from poor decisions, bad passing, and bad ball handling. They stood out much worse than a typical turnover. I have always been a huge Manu fan but his poor decision making this postseason was unlike anything any of us were used to seeing on such a consistent basis.

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Yet he has more assists and I posted his higher ast% in another thread. That and Miami's identity on D. Spurs identity on offense, should tell people everything they need to know. Instead they'll rather use incredibly flawed imagination and use that to grasp at straws when uncomfortable facts stare at them right in their faces.

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Originally Posted by 024

Turnovers are only one side of the story. Ginobili also shot 40% from the field and 30% from 3 pt land and also shot a lower FT%. So not only did he average more turnovers in the playoffs, his FG%, 3PT%, and FT% all plummeted from his career averages. If that was Kobe or Lebron, Spurstalk would be laughing and taking glee in pointing at how they choked and how finished/overrated they are. Either bring Ginobili back as the 6-7th scoring option for far less money or don't bring him back at all.

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He didn't shoot well. Yet is there a possibility that it hurt the team much less than what is being imagined? For starters shooting isn't a main part of his role in the Spurs lead leading create through assists-play as a team always-system. And in one interesting curveball his True shooting pct was better than Duncan's these playoffs.
Not in any way am I saying he is more valuable than our clear MVP Duncan, just throwing the possibility out there that even this poor shooting from Manu isn't enough for him to hurt the team overall on offense when you factor in his huge role in handling and creating with the ball. An area where he has career high numbers. A key area in the offensive identity that the Spurs team-version of the last two seasons is not a serious contender without. Then the haters only really have the Turnobili-myth to desperately cling on to. But it's a myth being debunked right in front of them.

edit: removed mixed up fga/fgm

he played less minutes than he ever did, especially in the first few rounds, so it's no mystery that his turnovers/game were lower than his averages. so were his points, assists, steals, etc. in the finals he had big minutes and committed crucial turnovers. 8 of them in the infamous game 6 that went to OT, and while i thought he played a good game 7 (18 points 6-12, 5 assists, 4 turnovers), all 4 of his turnovers came in the 4th quarter, especially the back to back where he 1) dropped the ball by the sideline 2) on the very next possession whizzed a pass out of bounds.

still, i think the suddenly increased role did play a huge factor in this, and had he not gotten hurt prior to the playoffs, i think he would have played much better. either that, or they had to get him going earlier in the playoffs with the big minutes. the turnovers in the finals mattered so much more because it came against miami. if you turn it over against the grizzlies, lakers, or a team out east like the pacers, it doesn't matter nearly as match as it would against a team like miami or OKC.

still, i thought manu played better than most give him credit for, but after watching game 5 and seeing how well manu played throughout game 7 (outside of that one stretch), there is ZERO doubt in my mind that we absolutely need him back. all the people calling for him to retire or for the spurs to "let him walk" are out of their damn minds and probably weren't old enough to appreciate just how valuable he has been to the team over the years, which would help you see the little things he does that still makes him valuable now

I dont care about shooting. Bad shooting nights happen. my issues were the turnovers.

For those saying to give miami credit for thier D, fine, but somehow the rest of the team only had 5 turnovers in game 6. ill say it again...5 turnovers, while manu had 8 on his own. I think you guys are giving miamis D too much credit. How many passes were unforced on the pick n roll? How many turnovers did he jump to pass and ended up caught in the air with nowhere to go?

And ive said it before, if pop is seeing that manu cant help himself and turning it over running pnr, its pop job to call off the pnr while manu had the ball. I cant count how many times I predicted a turnover as soon as tim started coming to set the pick. if I can see it, othets can see it, why cant pop see it?

Manu had this rep of being so smart on the court, but obviously thats not the case anymore.

12 turnovers in games 6 & 7 just shat over your Manu apologetics. According to Manu fanboi, these are the kinds of games in which he's supposed to shine, because he's so very competitive, or "He's Manu Ginobili," or some other tedious bollocks.
The excuses never end with Manu fanboi.

Who cares about turnovers/game if he had 8 of them in a game in which we could've rang?

Manu didn't just have the listed turn overs he also had a bunch of passes and plays that put other players on the spurs in a bad position.

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Originally Posted by spurraider21

still, i thought manu played better than most give him credit for, but after watching game 5 and seeing how well manu played throughout game 7 (outside of that one stretch), there is ZERO doubt in my mind that we absolutely need him back. all the people calling for him to retire or for the spurs to "let him walk" are out of their damn minds and probably weren't old enough to appreciate just how valuable he has been to the team over the years, which would help you see the little things he does that still makes him valuable now

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To put it in perspective, for the series, Tony led the team in assists with 45, Manu was 2nd with 30, and the next best guys were Diaw and Timmy, with 10 a piece...

Sure, he screwed the pooch in Game 6. But overall for the series, Miami played a large role in making sure the Spurs couldn't play their game. They dictated a lot of things, including matchups, and you can only do that when you're a great defensive team. I frankly can't be more proud of how the team fought in that series.

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Originally Posted by UZER

I dont care about shooting. Bad shooting nights happen. my issues were the turnovers.

For those saying to give miami credit for thier D, fine, but somehow the rest of the team only had 5 turnovers in game 6. ill say it again...5 turnovers, while manu had 8 on his own. I think you guys are giving miamis D too much credit. How many passes were unforced on the pick n roll? How many turnovers did he jump to pass and ended up caught in the air with nowhere to go?

And ive said it before, if pop is seeing that manu cant help himself and turning it over running pnr, its pop job to call off the pnr while manu had the ball. I cant count how many times I predicted a turnover as soon as tim started coming to set the pick. if I can see it, othets can see it, why cant pop see it?

Manu had this rep of being so smart on the court, but obviously thats not the case anymore.

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people giving Miami credit are not saying that Manu didn't have a poor game just saying that Miami is putting a lot of pressure on ball handlers in general and they are the best at doing it. Parker globally did a good job not turning over because dude even bothered by his injury had more legs than Manu to escape pressure and traps. I believe a two years ago Manu would have done a better job and would have taken the opportunity to drive all night long. Issue as most have commented is that Manu has still the vision but has no more the legs to make that tricky pass. Some T/Os were unforced but it was a very physical and intense serie, when u are tired u make this kind of mistake and again give Miami credit for pushing the pace and put our guys in the red, see exhibit a. Tim first half vs. second.

:rolleyes

I would like to see the usage % from the previous years compared to this one. It surely seemed like Manu turned the ball over a lot more per every touch he had.

"team had 5 turnovers, while manu had 8 on his own."

yep, no way around that. his inconsistency game-to-game was dumbfounding.

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Originally Posted by rayweb_on

?
really? 8 turnovers in a single game is not bad for you because in the previus game he didnt had one? really? is that how you think it is?

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Some are just blind now as far as homers go. The truth is the truth and what we saw out there and there is no sugar coating some of those passes. I love Manu to death but just let it go already people it is what it is and he had a nightmare finals and everyone saw it. Fans of other teams I talked to say it and people on the radio here in VA etc., can't defend it. He was just walking down and stumbling and throwing the ball to the other team, fact.


Do I want him back? Yep! I like Manu! At a different role and for less though obviously. .

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Originally Posted by Gagnrath

Manu didn't just have the listed turn overs he also had a bunch of passes and plays that put other players on the spurs in a bad position.

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This is very true as well.

The guys who want Manu back are blindly hoping that he can turn it around or rebound from the mediocre year and awful postseason he just wrapped up. I used to be annoyed at threads proclaiming he is done and thought they were premature. But nostalgia, hoping, and wishing will not change reality. Manu is as done as burnt steak. I would be okay if he came back in a limited role with a new SG on the roster, but that is not going to happen and Pop will continue to ride a broken horse. It's incredibly frustrating with this guy. He's either injured, recovering from injury, or he mindfucks himself with his confidence issues. Remember how the team was rolling when manu was injured this season? In the playoffs he seemed healthy enough for once, but his decisions were horrible. The truth hurts. Why would the spurs want a player who plays like he has double vision and is drunk??? It's time to retire.

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Originally Posted by superbigtime

The guys who want Manu back are blindly hoping that he can turn it around or rebound from the mediocre year and awful postseason he just wrapped up. I used to be annoyed at threads proclaiming he is done and thought they were premature. But nostalgia, hoping, and wishing will not change reality. Manu is as done as burnt steak. I would be okay if he came back in a limited role with a new SG on the roster, but that is not going to happen and Pop will continue to ride a broken horse. It's incredibly frustrating with this guy. He's either injured, recovering from injury, or he mindfucks himself with his confidence issues. Remember how the team was rolling when manu was injured this season? In the playoffs he seemed healthy enough for once, but his decisions were horrible. The truth hurts. Why would the spurs want a player who plays like he has double vision and is drunk??? It's time to retire.

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:toast Well said. Time to bring these ppl to reality.

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Originally Posted by Sean Cagney

Some are just blind now as far as homers go. The truth is the truth and what we saw out there and there is no sugar coating some of those passes. I love Manu to death but just let it go already people it is what it is and he had a nightmare finals and everyone saw it. Fans of other teams I talked to say it and people on the radio here in VA etc., can't defend it. He was just walking down and stumbling and throwing the ball to the other team, fact.


Do I want him back? Yep! I like Manu! At a different role and for less though obviously. .

This is very true as well.

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Well said. All of it. Lower salary, changed role and lower minutes..And not another word about international play. Give that shit a rest.

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

Exactly. That motherfuc*er is stubborn. He won't admit his mistakes. Sh*t even Tim Duncan blamed himself for the championship failure because of his Game 7 missed hook shot which is totally unfair. Timmy and Kawhi put the Spurs on their backs for Games 6 and 7. I'm not too surprised about Manu's attitude TBH because Argentinians are known to be stubborn and close-minded people.

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

BTW my old job required me to deal with all types of Hispanic people around the world so I know a lot about cultures. I may be stereotyping but I know people's tendencies better than the average person. LMAO truth my a*s. People like yourself are the ones that are in denial. Manu is past his expiration date. When will reality hit you?

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In the running for dumbest post(s) of the year tbh.

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Originally Posted by Sean Cagney

Some are just blind now as far as homers go. The truth is the truth and what we saw out there and there is no sugar coating some of those passes. I love Manu to death but just let it go already people it is what it is and he had a nightmare finals and everyone saw it. Fans of other teams I talked to say it and people on the radio here in VA etc., can't defend it. He was just walking down and stumbling and throwing the ball to the other team, fact.


Do I want him back? Yep! I like Manu! At a different role and for less though obviously. .

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this.

I've always liked Manu more than Parker, probably still do, but CoP >>>> CoM. I can't believe some of his fanbois are still trying to defend the shit that happened. Some of them are probably emailing John Hollinger to see if he can come up with a new advanced metric to prove the opposite of what we all saw.

Manu had like 8-12 Bill Buckner moments in games 6-7 (not counting some of his really stupid passes previously), stuff that we are still trying to make sense of. I just don't think his mind was in this for some reason. I honestly don't know what happened to him. I think what pisses me off, what still gets to me, is how absolutely badass Timmy was throughout this series. At 3fucking7 years old, he was playing more badass than Lebron throughout this series. You could tell Bill Russell couldn't wait to give him that Finals MVP, and then .....nothing.

Parker deserves his blame too, but I think most of us just accept him heroballing away several key possessions, we're probably numb to it. But Manu was like watching an accident waiting to happen, in fact it did happen many different times. Maybe his body has broken down more than he's admitting and he couldn't play through it, I really don't know.

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Originally Posted by HI-FI

this.

I've always liked Manu more than Parker, probably still do, but CoP >>>> CoM. I can't believe some of his fanbois are still trying to defend the shit that happened. Some of them are probably emailing John Hollinger to see if he can come up with a new advanced metric to prove the opposite of what we all saw.

Manu had like 8-12 Bill Buckner moments in games 6-7 (not counting some of his really stupid passes previously), stuff that we are still trying to make sense of. I just don't think his mind was in this for some reason. I honestly don't know what happened to him. I think what pisses me off, what still gets to me, is how absolutely badass Timmy was throughout this series. At 3fucking7 years old, he was playing more badass than Lebron throughout this series. You could tell Bill Russell couldn't wait to give him that Finals MVP, and then .....nothing.

Parker deserves his blame too, but I think most of us just accept him heroballing away several key possessions, we're probably numb to it. But Manu was like watching an accident waiting to happen, in fact it did happen many different times. Maybe his body has broken down more than he's admitting and he couldn't play through it, I really don't know.

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cant count the number of times I would see tim start making the move from the post to go set the screen for manu, and I was saying out loud, "no...no...no! hes gonna turn it over!" and surprise surprise, he turned it over.

its one thing to play bad. But its inexcusable to have that many unforced turnovers in a game 6 of the finals. Dudes mind is writing checks his body cant cash. If hes not willing to accept a lesser role and adjust his game, then he is at Kobe levels of stubborness and needs to go.

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Originally Posted by HI-FI

this.

I've always liked Manu more than Parker, probably still do, but CoP >>>> CoM. I can't believe some of his fanbois are still trying to defend the shit that happened. Some of them are probably emailing John Hollinger to see if he can come up with a new advanced metric to prove the opposite of what we all saw.

Manu had like 8-12 Bill Buckner moments in games 6-7 (not counting some of his really stupid passes previously), stuff that we are still trying to make sense of. I just don't think his mind was in this for some reason. I honestly don't know what happened to him. I think what pisses me off, what still gets to me, is how absolutely badass Timmy was throughout this series. At 3fucking7 years old, he was playing more badass than Lebron throughout this series. You could tell Bill Russell couldn't wait to give him that Finals MVP, and then .....nothing.

Parker deserves his blame too, but I think most of us just accept him heroballing away several key possessions, we're probably numb to it. But Manu was like watching an accident waiting to happen, in fact it did happen many different times. Maybe his body has broken down more than he's admitting and he couldn't play through it, I really don't know.

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Originally Posted by UZER

cant count the number of times I would see tim start making the move from the post to go set the screen for manu, and I was saying out loud, "no...no...no! hes gonna turn it over!" and surprise surprise, he turned it over.

its one thing to play bad. But its inexcusable to have that many unforced turnovers in a game 6 of the finals. Dudes mind is writing checks his body cant cash. If hes not willing to accept a lesser role and adjust his game, then he is at Kobe levels of stubborness and needs to go.

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Good points but good luck trying to convince these delusional Manu lovers. They are the most stubborn people I have ever seen on the internet. I think they're worst than the Kobetards and Lebrontards calling their favorite player the GOAT.

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Originally Posted by UZER

cant count the number of times I would see tim start making the move from the post to go set the screen for manu, and I was saying out loud, "no...no...no! hes gonna turn it over!" and surprise surprise, he turned it over.

its one thing to play bad. But its inexcusable to have that many unforced turnovers in a game 6 of the finals. Dudes mind is writing checks his body cant cash. If hes not willing to accept a lesser role and adjust his game, then he is at Kobe levels of stubborness and needs to go.

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i've said as much, that if his heart isn't into it anymore or if he isn't into a redemptive frame of mind, then it's best to move on. I don't think Manu would want to go out with that being his final memory, but we'll see. All that matters is the price is right.

tbh, i've watched every replay of the Spurs playoff games, but still haven't bothered watching games 6 or 7. i don't think I will for quite some time. my mind is fried from choking it away. in 2012 I blamed the officiating but this was definitely a self inflicted wound. How we clean up and move on will define this organization for a long time.

http://i43.tinypic.com/262qnvc.gif

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Originally Posted by ElNono

http://i43.tinypic.com/262qnvc.gif

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http://marisakeegan.com/wp-content/u...-the-truth.jpg

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Originally Posted by chaco

Most Turnovers in NBA History by Player

1. Karl Malone - 4,524

Karl Malone turned the ball over an all-time high of 4,524 times in his 19 year NBA career. He only led the league once in a season in turnovers, and his being number one on the list is mainly because he played so many games in his career. Still, he averaged 3.1 turnovers per game.

For comparison purposes, that is about the same average number of turnovers per game that Dwight Howard has so far in his career.

In the playoffs, Malone averaged 2.85 turnovers per game. A much better rate than he had during regular season play.

2. John Stockton - 4,244

Malone's long-time Utah Jazz teammate, John Stockton, is number two all-time in turnovers with 4,244. Stockton also had a very long career, and that is mainly why he is on this list. Stockton averaged 2.82 turnovers per game, which is the lowest per game turnover rate on this list.

Stockton averaged 2.84 turnovers per playoff game in his career. Just about the same rate as during regular season play.

3. Jason Kidd(notes) - 3,836

So far in his career, Jason Kidd has 3,836 turnovers in his career. Kidd has played in 1,267 games and has averaged 3.03 turnovers per game played. Kidd has led the league twice in turnovers so far in his career, including in 2001-02 when he played for my Nets team.

In the playoffs in his career, Jason Kidd is averaging 3.02 turnovers per game. In both 2002 and 2003, Kidd led my Nets to the NBA Finals. He turned the ball over 146 total times in 40 games in the playoffs over those two years. That's 3.70 turnovers per playoff game. The Nets lost both times in the finals, but we were never sniffing the NBA Finals those two years without the great play of Jason Kidd.

In the 2011 post-season, Jason Kidd has just 25 turnovers in 10 games played. His Dallas Mavericks shocked the NBA by sweeping the two-time defending champion Los Angeles Lakers right out of the playoffs.

4. Moses Malone - 3,804

Moses Malone turned the ball over 3,804 times in 1,329 NBA games. So his turnover average per game was 3.05. Malone was a great playoff competitor, and in the NBA playoffs he turned the ball over 215 times in 94 games. A 2.29 average, which is much better than his regular season average. Clearly, Malone was more careful, and more efficient, with the basketball in the playoffs.

5. Isiah Thomas - 3,682

Isiah Thomas turned the ball over 3,682 times in his career in 979 games played. So he averaged 3.76 turnovers per game. That is the second highest total on this list. Isiah was a bit more careful with the ball in the playoffs (369 turnovers in 111 playoff games), averaging 3.32 turnovers per game.

6. Hakeem Olajuwon - 3,667

Hakeem Olajuwon turned the ball over 3,667 times in 1,238 games played. So he averaged 2.96 turnovers per game. In the playoffs, Hakeem turned the ball over 424 times in 145 games, for a an average of 2.92. Just about the same as during regular season play.

7. Patrick Ewing - 3,537

Patrick Ewing turned the ball over 3,537 times in 1,183 games played, for an average of 2.99 turnovers per game. In the playoffs, Ewing turned the ball over 345 times in 139 games, for an average of 2.48 per game. So Ewing was more carefull with the basketball in playoffs, but still never won an NBA Championship despite all his guarantees.

8. Magic Johnson - 3,506

Magic Johnson turned the ball over 3,506 times in 906 games played. His average per game of 3.87 is the highest on this list. In the playoffs, Magic averaged 3.66 turnovers per game. A better rate than during regular season play, but still high. All the turnovers didn't stop Magic from winning five NBA Championships, and being named NBA Finals MVP three times.

9. Reggie Theus - 3,493

Reggie Theus was a pretty good NBA player, who turned the ball over a lot. Theus had 3,493 turnovers in 1,026 NBA games, for an average of 3.40 turnovers per game. He also averaged 18.5 points and 6.3 assists per game. Theus scored 19,015 points in his NBA career, but is unlikely to ever make the Basketball Hall of Fame. He finished his NBA career playing for the Nets, and I remember him as a player in love with his looks.

10. Charles Barkley - 3,376

Charles Barkley turned the ball over 3,376 times in 1,073 NBA games. So he averaged 3.15 turnovers per game. In the playoffs, Barkley averaged 2.87 turnovers per game.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-8448675

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Can you translate this rubbish into TOV% and give a breakdown of A:T ratios so it's actually meaningful input?

Also, Josh "Smoove" Smith's TOV% in the playoffs was 14.6 and 11.4 a year ago vs. Ginobili's 100 (19.4 really) and 19.8 last season. Ginobili is a post-season plague; sign SMOOOOOOOOOVEE!!!!!!!

lol troof

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Originally Posted by boutons_deux

Defense wins championships, MIA has a great one, and that made adjustments within the series. Pop was out-coached.

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Pretty much Pop is unfortunate Spoelstra learned from '11 is ready to make adjustments. I am tired of Pop's adjustment of starting Ginobili and hoping it works. The only time it worked was in '05. He's got to learn how to make everyone an offensive threat to respond to matchups. The playoffs are all about matchups. The only way to counter bad matchups is by forcing your own. We weren't going to win a championship by TP beating Lebron's defense. We've got to learn how to attack the Chalmers and Mike Miller's on defense. The irony is we attacked matchups in game 5 and it worked.

The problem is, Manu was healthy this postseason. Healthiest he had been in a year, according to Manu himself.

Unhealthy Manu is expected higher TO's, not a healthy Manu.

Furthermore, 4 TO's in the 4th Q of a game 7 in the finals is inexcusable regardless of player.

you would expect more from Ginobili, he was the REAL MVP of this team many times , when it matter the most in many games he was the one making the great plays, he always made something for this team, scoring, stealing ..something, I read many times in his blogs, interviews etc that if he was not feeling it ,he didnt force the things,. but in the finals he did that, force very stupid things.
why cant you accept that?
I dont care about the statistics, the statistics will lie about how good ginogili was his entire carrer, as statistics lie about how bad he was in this finals.

I cant believe that he is the same guy making unreal passes from midcourt, between the legs no look damm it.

but even worse than his torunovers it was his defence ..awful, but no one blames him for that because everyone thinks that it was the oponent the one doing the things right, well its not like that he played poor defence... Im a huge fan of him thats why I cant believe what I saw

The Hindenburg only had 1 bad day.

It was only a matter of time until the Great yacht played the racism card. If he can't make his point about Manu he puts down an entire country. Who the F### is he? Cheapens everything he writes.

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

Exactly. That motherfuc*er is stubborn. He won't admit his mistakes. Sh*t even Tim Duncan blamed himself for the championship failure because of his Game 7 missed hook shot which is totally unfair. Timmy and Kawhi put the Spurs on their backs for Games 6 and 7. I'm not too surprised about Manu's attitude TBH because Argentinians are known to be stubborn and close-minded people.

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man you are really something - the finals was like a year ago and you are still pounding the Manu rock big time. And you call yourself a Spurs' fan. And calling Argentinians out lol???? is like saying all Americas are wife beaters hillbillies because they are white!!!! LOL

You are a true moron.

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Originally Posted by doldrums

It was only a matter of time until the Great yacht played the racism card. If he can't make his point about Manu he puts down an entire country. Who the F### is he? Cheapens everything he writes.

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and take a look at his sig - he has westbrook next to the monkey from planet of the apes - if that's not racist i dont know what is.

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Originally Posted by superbigtime

The guys who want Manu back are blindly hoping that he can turn it around or rebound from the mediocre year and awful postseason he just wrapped up

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No, those who want Manu back (at least guys like myself) want him to:

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came back in a limited role

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At a much lower salary. There won't be many role players that will be better than Manu next year.

but the problem is you're focusing solely on turnovers.

if you're scoring and making plays while committing turnovers, you live with it.

but if you're not doing anything and just turning it over, you have a problem.

end of story.