Hollinger on Oberto

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Originally Posted by ESPN Chat: Hollinger

Jeremiah (Miami Beach, FL): TRUE or FALSE? Nesterovic will be traded this summer. Also, How much will Fabricio help us at Center position?

John Hollinger: If Nesterovic isn't traded, it won't be for lack of trying. The Spurs are in full-on "what it would take for you to leave the lot today with a Rasho Nesterovic?" mode. Oberto would probably play PF with Duncan/Mohammed moving to C when he's out there, and only play C if paired with Horry. He's really too small to play center in the NBA but he's skilled and will be another source of points.

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Alot of analyst seem to think Rasho is outta here, I like that..


But do you really think Oberto is going to play mainly PF?

:rolleyes

The Spurs better be trying to move Rasho. This guy isn't worth what they're paying him. I couldn't understand the signing of this guy that one off-season. It even shocked me when the report came out saying Pop went to Rasho's homeland to convince him to sign with the Spurs. He is a good bench player on the Spurs roster when you have Nazr, but the question is will Nazr resign???

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I couldn't understand the signing of this guy that one off-season

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Who should they have signed instead?

"when you have Nazr"

Spurs didn't have Nazr in the summer of 03

Spurs may not have Nazr in summer of 06.

In those contexts, Rasho looks pretty damn signable/keepable.

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what it would take for you to leave the lot today with a Rasho Nesterovic?" mode

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:lol ok...that was funny.

I betcha Angel is buying! :)

I suppose my preconceived notion that Rasho is a serviceable NBA center that a lot of teams would like to have is being shattered before my very eyes.

*Sigh* It's high time we put aside all that "cerebral player" and "great positional defender" and "understands the system" talk aside and admit that Rasho is a crappy, passionless stiff.

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The Spurs are in full-on "what it would take for you to leave the lot today with a Rasho Nesterovic?" mode.

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You mean, like trying to trade him for Tariq Abdul-Wahad?

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Originally Posted by boutons

"when you have Nazr"

Spurs didn't have Nazr in the summer of 03

Spurs may not have Nazr in summer of 06.

In those contexts, Rasho looks pretty damn signable/keepable.

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Agreed. As much as I'd like to believe Nazr is guaranteed to stay, he's not. Considering the breakout performance he had throughout the Playoffs, he might demand more money than the Spurs have available.

As far as Oberto, I'd wait to see if he produces before I ship Rasho out of town. Considering Oberto is 6'10 (somewhat short for an NBA center) and thin, he very well might be a forward. No sense in letting a center go for a guy who might not even play the position.

Are we sure Hollinger isn't confusing Oberto with Scola?

Too small to play Center?

A source of point?

the spurs would not push that much without being not far on a agreement with nazr. they are not adverse to risk.

it is good news for Oberto, it would give him minutes but also a lot of pressure. I was one of the biggest "i do not think they will trade rasho" but i have to admit it sounds like they are. Guess it's my turn to be in wait and see mode...

PS: youou i am going back in france tomorrow for 10 days !!!! watch out the kilos

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Who should they have signed instead?

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That off-season Brad Miller was a FA. I certainly would have taken him over Rasho. Brad Miller isn't nowhere near the best center in the NBA, but is certainly better than Rasho. So, to answer your question, I would have tried hard to sign him that off-season.

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Originally Posted by Shawn Michaels

I don't think Duncan like to play center

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This myth is something that's been proven wrong every year yet keeps getting passed around as truth.

How can he not like playing center when he does everytime he plays along side Horry?

I think we really only need 1 fulltime center (Nazr) and some fill in's during the game (TD, Nazr,Horry, Oberto). Rarely did it seem that the spurs missed a beat when Nazr wasnt out there. Shaq is really the only player you really need Nazr for and everyone seems adequte enough to fill in against anyone else!! I say either trade Rasho for either 1st or 2nd round future pick and sign a cheap big man like we did with Tmas or Willis..

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He is a good bench player on the Spurs roster when you have Nazr, but the question is will Nazr resign???

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You guys obviously didn't understand. For the slow ones here let me rephrase it. I was saying since the Spurs have Nazr, Rasho becomes a good bench player and that's it. I didn't say the Spurs had Nazr that year when Rasho signed. I was talking about the now. Not the past. The Spurs now have Nazr and Rasho is on the bench because he isn't that good of a starting center. At the end of that post I wrote, the question is will Nazr resign.

I know the point has been made before, but I would not be in such a rush to trade Rasho. True, he was of no help during this playoff run, but next year figures to be different, I think. Houston looks a lot better...Rasho on Yao....Miami might just come out of the east..Rasho on Shaq...Pho will not be the same perimeter team without Q and JJ...Seattle won't win as many, and they have a couple of big stiffs at C. I just think Rasho might be more valuable in some playoff situations next year. The Spurs strength this year was they could adapt to the other teams so well. Rasho gives you a legit big body, not a 6-10 guy trying to guard 7+.

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Originally Posted by Shawn Michaels

that's what I heard, but Duncan at center and Scola at PF would of been fuckin sick

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That's what a myth is. Something you hear.

I heard eating Pop Rocks and drinking Cola will make your stomach burst. Stupid crap like that is proven false yet people still pass it about and people are still dumb enough to believe it.

Kip, let me ask you something.. Can you remember a player who spurs have made an effort to sign not sign with them?? I cant, especially someone who has experienced the best organization in the league the prior season....

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I heard eating Pop Rocks and drinking Cola will make your stomach burst.

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:lmao

Dang that was funny. I remember being in elementary when that rumor was out. I was freaking scared.

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I suppose my preconceived notion that Rasho is a serviceable NBA center that a lot of teams would like to have is being shattered before my very eyes.

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I think he is still serviceable. What you are dealing with is that

1. no team out there is too willing to help out the champs (well, at least not until Isiah has something worth trading for again)

and

2. there are reports in the media (granted they are highly inaccurate IMO) that the Spurs may be considering using the amnesty rule on Rasho.

So again, for one thing teams aren't too willing to help out the defending champs and a team that looks to be strong already for the next 5-6 years, and for another they are thinking that if the Spurs waive him they can sign him to a new deal and not have to give up any pieces that the Spurs are expecting in return.

In the end, push comes to shove, I think the Spurs will get a deal done with one of the teams with major cap room still left (namely, NO, Atlanta, Utah).

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Originally Posted by yavozerb

Kip, let me ask you something.. Can you remember a player who spurs have made an effort to sign not sign with them??

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Jason Kidd, PJ Brown, Jermaine O'Neal, Karl Malone, Chris Webber. That's off the top of my head.

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That off-season Brad Miller was a FA. I certainly would have taken him over Rasho. Brad Miller isn't nowhere near the best center in the NBA, but is certainly better than Rasho. So, to answer your question, I would have tried hard to sign him that off-season.

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If the Spurs sign Brad that summer they don't have the money for Manu. Which would you rather have?

'Nuff said.

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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan

If the Spurs sign Brad that summer they don't have the money for Manu. Which would you rather have?

'Nuff said.

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I thought we signed Manu with the LLE.

When Rasho gets traded, it opens the door for Scola next year! I'm all for it. I don't care who they get cause they will be coming off the bench anyway! Pick up someone with a year left on his contract and wait for Scola next year!...... Nazr, Oberto, Scola, Duncan, Horry! Looks like a good front court to me!!!!

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Originally Posted by TheWriter

I thought we signed Manu with the LLE.

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But wouldn't have had the $52 million to give him last summer, when that contract expired. They're pretty good at planning ahead, if you couldn't tell. :)

People are way too sold on Nazr. He's good, and he played well in the playoffs. We haven't even seen him for a whole season, and he disappeared in the Finals when he had to face Big Ben (so did Rasho).

Rasho is part of the reason the Spurs got the #2 seed last year. He is better defensively than Nazr in some ways, not as good in other ways. Neither of them is ever going to be as good as Shaq or David Robinson, maybe not as good as Brad Miller. But outside of that (and if I recall, the Spurs tried to woo Miller, too, but he chose the Kings) what centers in the NBA are better? In an age where Adonal Foyle, Erick Dampier, and Brian Scalabrine can get big money, you know the center position in the NBA is lacking.

Reality is, SPurs won this year with Rasho for 80% of the regular season, and Nazr in the playoffs and a gimpy Duncan. If Duncan stays healthy, either Rasho or Nazr will be a decent center - all they need is defense out of their center. If they can keep both, they should do it, but they shouldn't bail on Rasho before they have Nazr locked up.

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Originally Posted by SpursWoman

But wouldn't have had the $52 million to give him last summer, when that contract expired.

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Why wouldn't they have had the money to resign Manu?

How much more is Brad being paid than Rasho?

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They're pretty good at planning ahead, if you couldn't tell. :)

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So True.

- Malik Rose

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Originally Posted by yavozerb

I think we really only need 1 fulltime center (Nazr) and some fill in's during the game (TD, Nazr,Horry, Oberto). Rarely did it seem that the spurs missed a beat when Nazr wasnt out there. Shaq is really the only player you really need Nazr for and everyone seems adequte enough to fill in against anyone else!! I say either trade Rasho for either 1st or 2nd round future pick and sign a cheap big man like we did with Tmas or Willis..

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Amen!!!!

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People are way too sold on Nazr. He's good, and he played well in the playoffs. We haven't even seen him for a whole season,

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He was a pretty damn good starter for New York prior to his groin injury. He was then traded to us while he still had the injury.

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and he disappeared in the Finals when he had to face Big Ben (so did Rasho).

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He didn't disappear. He just played less minutes because of Horry. He was still playing in the fourth qt. during the finals. Not te entire fourth but he started of playing in the fourth until Horry was brought in.

His offense slipped in the finals but he wasn't all that good on offense anyway. His defense wasn't anything to brag about but he hustled, got the boards, the put bacls, which is why Nazr > Rasho.

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How much more is Brad being paid than Rasho?

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$25M (Rasho's contract was $42M total, Brad's $67M)

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

$25M (Rasho's contract was $42M total, Brad's $67M)

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How much was he on the pay roll for Sac last summer? 8 million?

nazrs contract expires so when we trade rasho we will have

oberto
and option to javkosas
big downgrade from
rasho , nazr , and oberto

Brad Miller signed in '03 for seven years at the price of $67 mil.
Rasho signed in '03 for six years at the price of $42 mil

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Originally Posted by TheWriter

How much was he on the pay roll for Sac last summer? 8 million?

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$6.872

It might very well be a blessing in disguise if the Spurs aren't able to dump Rasho this summer. Nazr's re-signing is far from a done deal and Oberto has yet to play a minute in this league. It wouldn't be the first time the Spurs were thwarted in making a move which ultimately was the worst move they never made.

My guess is that the Spurs are looking for long term cap relief in exchange for Radoslav and are finding no takers. And yes, who wants to help the champs pare down some payroll in order to be able to retain Mohammed?

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Originally Posted by Kip Fanatic

Brad Miller signed in '03 for seven years at the price of $67 mil.
Rasho signed in '03 for six years at the price of $42 mil

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So rough figure:

Brad - 9.5 million a year.

Rasho - 7 million a year.

Of course both start off with a smaller per year with increases every summer.

But can someone explain how we'd have no money to sign Manu had Brad been signed instead of Rasho. I'm not sayind it's wrong, just would like to know how it breaks down.

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Originally Posted by SpursWoman

$6.872

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So at 6.8 million, how would we not have had the money to resign Manu?

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Originally Posted by TheWriter

This myth is something that's been proven wrong every year yet keeps getting passed around as truth.

How can he not like playing center when he does everytime he plays along side Horry?

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manu said that one of the reasons why Scola didn't come is that the Spurs need a center because TD do not want to play Center full time.

Gus

brad would have NEVER came here so doesn't matter

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Originally Posted by Kip Fanatic

You guys obviously didn't understand. For the slow ones here let me rephrase it. I was saying since the Spurs have Nazr, Rasho becomes a good bench player and that's it. I didn't say the Spurs had Nazr that year when Rasho signed. I was talking about the now. Not the past. The Spurs now have Nazr and Rasho is on the bench because he isn't that good of a starting center. At the end of that post I wrote, the question is will Nazr resign.

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The problem is, You don't pay a bench player 5 million to sit. Rasho = bench is a dumb move. Get rid of the stiff! And pay someone Massenburg salary!

What's funny is how the Spurs are stockpiling foriegn "big men" overseas.

Ian
Robertas
The Russian guy

Maybe they know they have their big men waiting.

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Originally Posted by clubalien

brad would have NEVER came here so doesn't matter

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I know. But Aggie made the claim that if he was signed we wouldn't have resigned Manu.

I'm just trying to figure out if that's true or not.

I'm thinking not.

The real point is the Rasho signing was a mistake. Period. He was solid at best. He wasn't the reason the Spurs won the is past season. I want you people to name an important game this past season where you can say' "if it weren't for Rasho the Spurs wouldn't have won that game last." Please try to convince me the signing of Rasho wasn't a mistake. The Spurs front office isn't mistake free. We tend to forget that they have had bad signings because of the way we found Tony and Manu.

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Originally Posted by gus

manu said that one of the reasons why Scola didn't come is that the Spurs need a center because TD do not want to play Center full time.

Gus

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Him wanting to play center full time is different from someone saying he doesn't like to play center.

And why would the Spurs even play Scola at center? That'd be as dumb as playing Mike Wilks at the 2.

spurs aren't in Lux Tax territory, they vowed they wouldn't be.

why the hell would you want miller? the guy is about as overpaid as Rasho

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Originally Posted by spvrs

spurs aren't in Lux Tax territory, they vowed they wouldn't be.

why the hell would you want miller? the guy is about as overpaid as Rasho

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Reading is not something everyone here excels at.

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why the hell would you want miller? the guy is about as overpaid as Rasho

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No one said we wanted Brad Miller. The point was that in the off-season Brad Miller was available and the Spurs signed Rasho. That's it.

Ian is the future I could see him comering here maybe in two years
once he is here he will dominate the league more than amare did

Talk about reading comprehension...

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And why would the Spurs even play Scola at center?

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It doesn't say they'd play Scola at center. He said that one of the reason Scola isn't here is because he's a power forward and that would make Duncan play more at center.

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I'm just trying to figure out if that's true or not.

I'm thinking not.

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Of course not, you would know more than Spurs management right....

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

Talk about reading comprehension...


It doesn't say they'd play Scola at center. He said that one of the reason Scola isn't here is because he's a power forward and that would make Duncan play more at center.

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No more than when Horry's in the game.

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Originally Posted by Kip Fanatic

I want you people to name an important game this past season where you can say' "if it weren't for Rasho the Spurs wouldn't have won that game last."

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I seem to remember Rasho playing some pretty solid games when TD was injured. The shame is that when TD is playing, Rasho goes into his "world's largest shrinking violet" mode. If you could wave a magic wand and make him always play like he does when Tim's out, great ... but since we are in the real world, sayonara, Rash.

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Originally Posted by T Park

Of course not, you would know more than Spurs management right....

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Since when was Aggie part of Spurs management?

When the Spurs were trying to max out Kidd that summer, I don't think paying Miller 67 over 7 years is gonna keep them from signing Manu.

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No more than when Horry's in the game.

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Correct.

But you still misunderstood what the post said. So try not to put other people down when you do the same crap.

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Originally Posted by CubanMustGo

I seem to remember Rasho playing some pretty solid games when TD was injured.

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That was last year, not this season.

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

Correct.

But you still misunderstood what the post said. So try not to put other people down when you do the same crap.

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You're right, I did misread it. My fault.

Rasho had a lot of solid defensive games for the Spurs, which made a difference. But in the long-term, he just doesn't make sense here now because of Nazr/Oberto (though IMO the Spurs are taking a risk that Nazr will re-sign). The Spurs had a lot of opportunities to trade Rasho in the past and didn't. But now they are obviously willing to do whatever it takes to get his money off the books. It's just like Malik - there's no use to pay a guy upwards of $6M/year who isn't going to get any playing time to warrant that. It doesn't mean that Malik sucks or Rasho sucks. It just means that they weren't/aren't worth paying on this team.

.

And why would the Spurs even play Scola at center? That'd be as dumb as playing Mike Wilks at the 2.[/QUOTE]


Precisely, Scola can't play center and due to that they hired a Center. Besides the performance of Horry as PF in the Postseason closed any chance to Scola to play backup PF.

Gus

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Originally Posted by gus

Precisely, Scola can't play center and due to that they hired a Center.

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Due to his buyout the Spurs signed Oberto. Had Scola or his agent taken care of that buyout, he'd be holding up a Spurs jersey, not Oberto.

But it's better this way because now we have Oberto and if the Spurs keep Scola's rights, we might bring him in next summer.

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Reading is not something everyone here excels at.

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are kidding? I'll break it down for you.

when all is said and done this year we will be right on the Lux tax threshold.

Spurs aren't playing luxury tax (not just this year but going forward). Miller's contract is 25 million > Rasho's so going forward. Starting next year even with Nazr coming off the books we are right at Lux tax w/o signing anyone. So connect the dots... if we would be in a bad situation with a much smaller contract we'd be in a much worse situation with a 25 million dollar higher contract.

It takes a little foresight, but when Manu was coming up for contract Spurs brass would be able to look at the chart beyond the next couple years and see where they'd be. This would have effected the negotiations with Tony and Manu -- would we have lost Manu, who knows.

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Originally Posted by spvrs

are kidding? I'll break it down for you.

when all is said and done this year we will be right on the Lux tax threshold.

Spurs aren't playing luxury tax (not just this year but going forward). Miller's contract is 25 million > Rasho's so going forward. Starting next year even with Nazr coming off the books we are right at Lux tax w/o signing anyone. So connect the dots... if we would be in a bad situation with a much smaller contract we'd be in a much worse situation with a 25 million dollar higher contract.

It takes a little foresight, but when Manu was coming up for contract Spurs brass would be able to look at the chart beyond the next couple years and see where they'd be. This would have effected the negotiations with Tony and Manu -- would we have lost Manu, who knows.

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My quip was not at the lux. tax. That's true. My quip was directed towards this:

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why the hell would you want miller? the guy is about as overpaid as Rasho

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I say keep Rasho for one more year. If Nazr is not re-signing, Rasho stays, but if he's gone, trade Nesterovic.

I'm re-reading and I still can't figure out how Miller got brought into the whole thing.

Oh well. glad we are simpatico

miller got brought in because we were saying when we signed rasho there where NO OTHER OPTIONS

so someone brought up miller going to sac town

the other center avilable ended up in tpups and SUCKED

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People are way too sold on Nazr. He's good, and he played well in the playoffs. We haven't even seen him for a whole season, and he disappeared in the Finals when he had to face Big Ben (so did Rasho).

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Other guys whose numbers went down when facing Big Ben: Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan (at times). But yeah, Nazr obviously sucks because one of the best low post players in the league nicked two points and a board per game off his average.


TheWriter/Buddy Holly: Do you not see the Spurs trying to pare their payroll down right now? We'd already be over the lux tax right now with Brad Miller in the house. That's not something that was gonna jive with ownership two years ago.

Look, I think it's fairly obvious...

Spurs will wait til' February, see which one of NY's 5 small forwards is playing the best, and then call up Isiah and give him what he wanted last February - Rasho. :spin

I think the Spurs will experiment with Oberto at center to see how he handles that position.

The only thing worse than this Rasho contract, would have been a olawakandi contract!! Remember, that is who the spurs went after initially, freaken Scary!!!!!

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Originally Posted by yavozerb

The only thing worse than this Rasho contract, would have been a olawakandi contract!! Remember, that is who the spurs went after initially, freaken Scary!!!!!

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When did they go after Olowokandi? They went after Rasho on the first day of free agency.

I completely agree that this is another Malik scenario in terms of shopping Rasho. Here is my question... if they can't deal him this summer, how does that affect the Spurs immediately? Will that keep them from resigning Devin or signing someone else? If it doesn't hurt us to keep him as the season starts, it's a long way til February and I'd be willing to wait and see what else comes up before the trade deadline.

How is 6'10" too short to play C? :lol

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

I suppose my preconceived notion that Rasho is a serviceable NBA center that a lot of teams would like to have is being shattered before my very eyes.

*Sigh* It's high time we put aside all that "cerebral player" and "great positional defender" and "understands the system" talk aside and admit that Rasho is a crappy, passionless stiff.

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:tu

I'm getting close to admitting that as well.

I hated it when the Spurs signed Rasho. I thought it was a horrible fit and I saw him as the softest player in the league. I continued to dislike him for about 90% of his time on the Spurs. It wasn't until he went down with his ankle injury did I start to feel sorry for the big guy.

Despite people here calling him a top ten center and a player that could start in the league, I think the opposite is coming clear. Rasho plays like he doesn't care.

His offense is getting worse and worse. His free throws are getting worse and worse. He's not an overly good rebounder, despite being tall with long arms. His defense is pretty good, but let's be honest ... his defense is a byproduct of the Spurs' system. He just rotates and puts his arms up. It isn't exactly rocket science or something any other seven-footer couldn't do.

Worst of all, I don't think he cares. He doesn't play like he cares, at least. He's obviously not willing to put his body on the line as he rarely draws charges and almost never gets to the line. It's amazing he hasn't done more as a Spur, seeing as he's playing next to the best player in the game and for a coach who drove to Slovenia to recruit him.

Rasho is a good guy and and a great teammate, but that's about it. He's a below average NBA player with a bloated contract. He's been put in a perfect situation and blew it. If he would have just stayed on par with his T'Wolves output, he would've been worth his contract. But he's gotten worse and worse and is now just a burden.

Sorry Rasho, but you need to go ... for whatever the Spurs can get.

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Originally Posted by Horry For 3!

How is 6'10" too short to play C? :lol

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That's what I'm saying too.

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Originally Posted by spurschick

Here is my question... if they can't deal him this summer, how does that affect the Spurs immediately? Will that keep them from resigning Devin or signing someone else?

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It doesn't hurt their chances of signing Devin or using the rest of the MLE, etc.

It won't really effect them immediately, unless by some miracle they traded him for a trade exception or a major impact player right now.

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

It won't really effect them immediately, unless by some miracle they traded him for a trade exception or a major impact player right now.

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I'm losing faith in the possibility of that miracle. It appears that everyone is taking a wait-and-see position. Personally, if we can't get something good for Rasho right now, I'd rather hang on to him til we can.

LJ,

I don't think it's that he's not serviceable, or that he's not in the top half of centers in the league.

I think it's a byproduct of the fact that teams are historically hesitant to help out reigning champions in the trade department, and with the Spurs front office success others around the league are probably sitting there thinking "if the Spurs don't want this guy anymore, how good can he really be?"

You've also got the whole animosity thing about the Spurs doing well in the draft thing going on, where teams are probably somewhat bitter towards them and unwilling to help out.

I think the Spurs are just going to have to wait it out for now. I really think the best situation is going to come about as the season progresses and some marginal playoff contending team realizes it's in dire need of a big man, or has some player in the last year of their deal who has become disenchanted with one of the non-contending franchises that also happens to be in need of a center, something along those lines.

Then the Spurs will make their move.

Why help out the champs? It's fairly obvious the Spurs want Nazr instead of Rasho long term. Rasho's contract does reduce the amount of the lux tax distribution the Spurs are eligible for so he will cost them roughly double if they opt to go over the lux tax threshold to retain Nazr. The Spurs might be closer to making Rasho an amnesty casualty than we think.

Why trade for a player who might be waived? Why help the champs retain the center they prefer?

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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan

LJ,

I don't think it's that he's not serviceable, or that he's not in the top half of centers in the league.

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Considering contract, potential and basketball skills, I would say he's not top 25. I'll make a list if you disagree.

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I think it's a byproduct of the fact that teams are historically hesitant to help out reigning champions in the trade department

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I don't know if I buy that. The Spurs were given Hedo Turkoglu after their last championship for the rotting corpse of Danny Ferry. The Pistons were given Carlos Arroyo for nothing. The Lakers and Bulls teams made trades every year to improve.

That theory doesn't fly.

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You've also got the whole animosity thing about the Spurs doing well in the draft thing going on, where teams are probably somewhat bitter towards them and unwilling to help out.

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Again, teams will do trades if they think it will improve their team. If there was a team who was interested in Rasho, they wouldn't NOT pull the trigger because they are jealous of the Spurs. That doesn't make any sense and has no historical precedence.

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I think the Spurs are just going to have to wait it out for now. I really think the best situation is going to come about as the season progresses and some marginal playoff contending team realizes it's in dire need of a big man, or has some player in the last year of their deal who has become disenchanted with one of the non-contending franchises that also happens to be in need of a center, something along those lines.

Then the Spurs will make their move.

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I think the Spurs are waiting to find a deal in which they can just give him away. If a team offers an expiring contract for Rasho, the Spurs would pull the trigger. Even if a player has two years left on the deal (a la Steve Smith when the Spurs got him), I think the Spurs do it.

Dallas turning down Rasho for TAW is a sign that other teams were paying attention and want no part of Rasho, IMO.

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The Spurs were given Hedo Turkoglu after their last championship for the rotting corpse of Danny Ferry. The Pistons were given Carlos Arroyo for nothing. The Lakers and Bulls teams made trades every year to improve.

That theory doesn't fly.

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It wasn't the rotting corpse of Ferry, it was for the non-guaranteed final year of his contract.

Arroyo? Remind me how much he contributed to the Pistons this year.

There's a difference between those two guys and helping SA free room when you know they're trying to make a move to lock up Nazr long term and have another solid player in Scola waiting in the wings.

I think the big thing here is the combination of getting rid of Rasho, and the Spurs getting what they want in return - either a long three or cap relief to free up cash to extend Nazr.

I suspect we won't really see talks heat up again until closer to the Aug. 15 amnesty deadline, and then again as the free agent pool dries up and a few teams out there are still looking for big men (read, New Orleans, Atlanta, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan

I think it's a byproduct of the fact that teams are historically hesitant to help out reigning champions in the trade department, and with the Spurs front office success others around the league are probably sitting there thinking "if the Spurs don't want this guy anymore, how good can he really be?"

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Originally Posted by timvp

I don't know if I buy that. The Spurs were given Hedo Turkoglu after their last championship for the rotting corpse of Danny Ferry. The Pistons were given Carlos Arroyo for nothing. The Lakers and Bulls teams made trades every year to improve.

That theory doesn't fly.

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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan

You've also got the whole animosity thing about the Spurs doing well in the draft thing going on, where teams are probably somewhat bitter towards them and unwilling to help out.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Again, teams will do trades if they think it will improve their team. If there was a team who was interested in Rasho, they wouldn't NOT pull the trigger because they are jealous of the Spurs. That doesn't make any sense and has no historical precedence.

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Timvp beat me to this one and I totally agree. You might say possible contenders don't want to help the Spurs in the trade department but any team will pull the trigger on a deal that will help their team. This especially goes with the cellar dwellers that want to win a few more games to show improvement and fringe teams trying to make a move to get into the playoffs.

Even playoff teams will cut a deal with the Spurs if it moves them closer to where they want to be, whether to get an edge over a division rival or help them in their conference playoffs. Because realistically only 3-4 teams have championship potential, not everyone has championship aspirations. Some teams just want to get to the playoffs or advance another round and if dealing with the defending champ gets you there, you do it.

If I'm Dallas, I do the Rasho deal. They get a decent defensive bigman in exchange for a player that hasn't even suited up in two years and has never played more than 61 in a season. Even better yet, it may weaken the Spurs in a playoff run whether it be that Oberto doesn't work out or we need a big guy to match up with someone like Yao in an early round. Maybe Yao gets Nazr in foul trouble or posts him up too easily and Oberto isn't (possibly) strong enough or tall enough to be effective defensively/offensively against him. With the Spurs possibly knocked out of the playoffs early, it gives Dallas a better chance to advance.

And what if Nazr has a breakout season and the Spurs decide they don't want to play his pricetag? Suddenly a perceived strength for the Spurs turns into a liability. Again, Dallas may gain advantage by dealing with the Spurs. This looks like a gamble that could easily go the Mavs way and it's disturbing that they didn't accept.

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And what if Nazr has a breakout season and the Spurs decide they don't want to play his pricetag?

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I don't think we'd be shopping Rasho if we didn't already have some idea of what Nazr was going to cost us for the next 6 years.

another thread where aggie is making wayyyyy too much sense.

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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan

I don't think we'd be shopping Rasho if we didn't already have some idea of what Nazr was going to cost us for the next 6 years.

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Huh? How would they have an idea? If they had an amount that he would agree to, then they'd probably extend him right now. Nazr could sucks this season and not be worth more than $3M/year and if he performs well, he could easily demand $8-9M or more on the open market.

Rasho's contract is NOT that bloated, by NBA standards.

I still think the Spurs should just roll with Rasho/Nazr/Oberto for 2005/2006, and wait until next summer to make a decision.

I like Nazr, but, he has a ton of "bad contract" potential.

As a fan, I'm focused on a 4th NBA championship. The air is getting thinner, season by season.

Am I the only one who remembers how well Rasho was playing right after we got Nazr and up to when he twisted his ankle? Maybe I'm wrong?

The Spurs have decided that they want Nazr and do not feel like paying $60 mil over the next 4 years to keep Radoslav around. He's much more likely to be an amnesty clause casualty than this forum originally anticipated. This also explains why the Spurs are being so miserly with Devin Brown.

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Originally Posted by Guru of Nothing

Rasho's contract is NOT that bloated, by NBA standards.

I still think the Spurs should just roll with Rasho/Nazr/Oberto for 2005/2006, and wait until next summer to make a decision.

I like Nazr, but, he has a ton of "bad contract" potential.

As a fan, I'm focused on a 4th NBA championship. The air is getting thinner, season by season.

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Ditto. This has been my position all along.

Nazr's agent will have a huge bargaining position if the Spurs trade Rasho this summer. No matter whether Oberto starts and Nazr backs him up, and no matter Nazr's numbers are 9pts/5rbs next year as a backup, I am pretty sure he will still receive a good offer from some team.

Rasho, despite all his shortcomings, is a very nice insurance to have in case Nazr bolts next summer.

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Originally Posted by Rick Von Braun

Nazr's agent will have a huge bargaining position if the Spurs trade Rasho this summer.

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Most insightful thought!

Trading/Dumping Rasho, in and of its self, probably inflates Nazr's value by $10-20M at the bargaining table.

Nazr's value will be determined by what other teams offer. The Spurs always let their free agents go look to see what they can get. Based off of that, the Spurs make their offer.

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Huh? How would they have an idea?

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Well, I guess I am figuring (whether it's the right thing to do or not) that they wouldn't be shopping Rasho without an extension all but finalized for Nazr.

If they didn't, that would be pretty stupid to do (unless they are planning on keeping Nazr next summer regardless). They would have his (Nazr's) Bird Rights and the right of first refusal.

*shrugs*

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Originally Posted by timvp

Nazr's value will be determined by what other teams offer. The Spurs always let their free agents go look to see what they can get. Based off of that, the Spurs make their offer.

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Yes, BUT, in a world without Rasho, the Spurs would probably offer Nazr more money (say $15M more), unless Oberto blows up.

Then again, I'm not all that sold on the need for traditional position fillers.

Unathletic 7-footers are not ALL that desirable in the ever-evolving NBA. This includes Rasho AND Nazr.

What's left on Rasho's contract? 4 years at about 28 M? I'll take that over Nazr @ 6 years at (SAY) 55M.

Rasho's not perfect, but he might represent the best option available to the Spurs.

Rasho didn't step it up. Nazr is going to have to sep it up. So far neither has proven to be the answer. Last year the two best big men on the floor at cunch time were Duncan and a now 34 y.o., $2-3 million a year Horry. I wouldn't lay significant money on Nazr until he proved he was worth having on the floor at the end of the fourth.

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Originally Posted by Rick Von Braun

Ditto. This has been my position all along.

Nazr's agent will have a huge bargaining position if the Spurs trade Rasho this summer. No matter whether Oberto starts and Nazr backs him up, and no matter Nazr's numbers are 9pts/5rbs next year as a backup, I am pretty sure he will still receive a good offer from some team.

Rasho, despite all his shortcomings, is a very nice insurance to have in case Nazr bolts next summer.

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The Spurs seem set on moving Rasho because otherwise they'll be losing dollar for dollar in lux tax distributions the amount of the raise that Nazr's next contract would provide him.

But yeah, it's a bit of a gamble to give up Radoslav now with Nazr not under contract past next season. Hopefully Oberto is that good so as to mitigate the potential loss of Nazr.

i'm with grjr, we were rolling along damn well before rasho and tim both got hurt. should be an interesting battle for the center spot this year. i appreciate what nazr brought after rash got hurt, but let's not blow our wads too early. he could very easily revert.

Nazr's camp would be wise to not sign an extension right now. Technically we only saw the partial Nazr. Slowed by a groin injury, minimal practices to learn the system, playing with unfamiliar teammates and not completely knowing his role.

If he accepts an extension now it's because the Spurs are willing to give him a contract based on his potential, not what he's already done in our system. Otherwise Nazr should come in healthy, go through the whole training camp, learn the system and his teammates and maximize his performance.

If he's successful, which you would imagine he'd be better after truly being "processed" by the system, then his value to the Spurs and in the open market rises.

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Originally Posted by BigVee

I know the point has been made before, but I would not be in such a rush to trade Rasho. True, he was of no help during this playoff run, but next year figures to be different, I think. Houston looks a lot better...Rasho on Yao....Miami might just come out of the east..Rasho on Shaq...Pho will not be the same perimeter team without Q and JJ...Seattle won't win as many, and they have a couple of big stiffs at C. I just think Rasho might be more valuable in some playoff situations next year. The Spurs strength this year was they could adapt to the other teams so well. Rasho gives you a legit big body, not a 6-10 guy trying to guard 7+.

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True. I'm not a big fan of Rasho but imo keeping him is a better option. He matched up well against Shaq in '04 playoffs and is an underrated defender. May be his defense is decent because of Spurs' system. It's not like he doesn't fit into our system.

What if Nazr bolts? You'll end up having just oberto - not a good scenario.

I don't see spurs trading him away unless they improve in '5' position or get an expiring contract to re-sign Nazr or get a young,quality 3.

I think it's clear that the Spurs think Rasho is a bust. To say his contract is not bad is ridiculous, we are trying to unload him for NOTHING and we can't. What else could the answer be?

Signing Oberto, a guy with passion for the game, a hustler further proves it more. it's almost like the opposite of Rasho's staid personality, negative intangibles and shrinking from a fight.

IMO spurs will wait it out, hopefully there is no other time when Rasho's trade value is worse than now: he didn't play in the playoffs, reports are speculating about using the amnesty on him (never happen) and words gotten out the spurs want to dump him.

If it doesn't, happen next year is when palms will start getting sweaty and we'll have to part with assets like picks and beno...