While I don't think every case of propping a player from your favorite team automatically makes you a homer....I would agree with Dave being 4th among those 4.
In relation to 1st team all-NBA selections of that 4:
TD 8
Hakeem 6
DRob 4
Shaq 4
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While I don't think every case of propping a player from your favorite team automatically makes you a homer....I would agree with Dave being 4th among those 4.
In relation to 1st team all-NBA selections of that 4:
TD 8
Hakeem 6
DRob 4
Shaq 4
Sayind David Robinson is one of the greatest players ever is not homerism...
Thinking the players he was surrounded with were good enough to win a championship with...is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyjoe
I'll tell you what...I'll do your ranking if you do mine:
Rank these 4:
Clyde Drexler
Manu Ginobili
Kobe Bryant
Vinny Del Negro
And these 4:
Derek Fisher
Kenny Smith
Tony Parker
Avery Johnson
And these 4:
Robert Horry
Robert Horry
Chucky Brown
Dennis Rodman
And these 4:
Robert Horry
Rick Fox
Bruce Bowen
Sean Elliott
Then explain why they didn't win every year...Quote:
Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown
Why didn't we win a title in 04?
And the regular season is totally different in the playoffs.
In the playoffs the teams know how to take the best player out....and they will do so...whether his name is Wilt, Shaq or Duncan.
Quote:
I watched the Spurs very closely throughout David's career, often embarrassed (1996 WCSF v. Utah, for example; 1991 WCFR v. Golden State), occasionally proud (1990 WCSF v. Portland; 1993 WCFR v. Portland; 1995 WCSF v. LA), and often heartbroken. I have watched almost every game of Tim Duncan's career. I have absolutely no doubt that Tim Duncan is a better player than David Robinson. None.
You can point to sheer numbers all you want and say, well, Timmy's per game scoring averages aren't as good, but you also can't ignore the fact that Tim has never played for a team that averaged 100 points per game or averaged more than 80 shots per game.
Yeah? And Timmy also hasn't had a new head coach virtually every year of his career....
Quote:
I also don't think that you can completely ignore votes for league honors. I don't think those results are always gospel truth about players, but they tend to balance out over time. Tim plays in an era of great forwards (particularly PF) but he is a no-brainer First Team All-NBA player every year. David played in an era of great centers (himself, Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Mourning) and while there wasn't any doubt that he was an All-NBA guy (which is why I'd always argue that Dave was greater than Ewing, for example), he was rarely a no-brainer for the First Team. That, to me at least, is a dramatic difference.
If Tim Duncan had been playing C in the early 90's he wouldn't have 8 consectuve All NBA selections.
Someone needs to tell Duncan he didn't know what he was doing when he contemplated leaving San Antonio via Free Agency...twice...because he questioned the Spurs commitment/ability to win a title...someone needs to tell him that he is all we need. Because he obviously doesn't get it....then again...I imagine the buttfucking he got against LA in 2001 and 2002 probably gives him a different perspective on things.
Just be glad we got David first...if Duncan had been in David's situation...
#1. He would have never signed with us in the first place. He'd have a lot more $$$$$$ and a better team and been playing with Magic Johnson in LA. And won a title as a rookie.
#2. He damn sure wouldn't have stayed here in the early and mid 90's if he had been a FA.
Spurs fans don't deserve David Robinson....
One thing is for certain...David is certainly stupider than any of those other 3 ...none of those others would have stayed in SA through that era.
I'll end my participation in this argument with a quote from Michael Jordan...
What did Michael Jordan say when told he didn't make his teamates better?
"Get me better teamates"...
Now take a poll on this forum asking who the greatest player ever is...
This post is starting to make my brain seize. :bang
1) KobeQuote:
Originally Posted by whottt
2) Clyde
3) Manu
4) Vinny
1) T.P.
2) A.J.
3) Kenny Smith
4) Derek Fisher
1) Rodman
2) Horry young
3) Horry old
4) Chucky Brown
1) Elliott
2) Bruce Bowen
3) Fox
-Horry unranked because is it young or old horry? Yount horry #2 and old horry #3 behind bowen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyjoe
Houston Horry was a SF...that's why he is listed with SF's.
The two Horry's that were listed in the PF section were the ones that played with Shaq and Duncan.
I hope it isn't lost on you that the only one of those centers that didn't play with Horry was David Robinson, and neither Shaq nor Hakeem won titles without him...while he won multiple titles without them. And don't even say he nutrode...because he made pivotal championship determining plays for every one of them. He might not have been a franchise player..but he is one hell of a Championship Accessory.
I can understand you putting AJ ahead of the far and away superior Kenny Smith...even though the Rockets had both of them and chose Smith over AJ....because Kenny Smith was used a decoy in the 94-95 finals and spent most of his time camped out at the 3 line pumping it into Hakeem ad the defense being played by the Spurs demanded...
I cannot understand you putting Derek Fisher over him...DFish destroyed AJ.
As for my list...I'll give you my alltime list...
Wilt
Kareem
Haeem
Drob
Shaq
Duncan is not a C so he is not on my list. Neither is Russell a C in the sense we are talking about...besides if you are going to count Drob's low shooting PCT's against him...you damn sure need to count Russell's or else the inconsistent position you shallow analysts have will be even more so.
And why did Hakeem shoot so poorly in the 89 playoffs? Didn't feel like playing god that year?
David's career playoff PCT actually got worse with Duncan...
As for me...I can see that David's worst post season occurred after his most maginificent regular season...one that none of these other guys can match...and it's not hard to figure out why....because his team had no talent and none of those other guys wouldn't have even gotten that team to the post season.
I can also look and see that the teams of Shaq, Hakeem and yes even Duncan...were capable posting winning records without those guys, and did so from time to time...while the Spurs never posted a winning record without David in any season he missed more than 1 game.
Or IOW...
I know the difference between Manu Ginobili and fucking Vinny Del Negro...and I truly feel sorry for ya'll that ya'll don't.
.....jee-no-billy?
Whottt's making up words again!
Where did I say it wasn't Robinson's fault. All I am saying is that Robinson's teammates were just as responsible as he was, but all the blame has fallen on his shoulders all these years.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyjoe
Then why are all the failures Robinson's fault? Are you trying to tell me that Rodman's explosion, the lack of talent, and a coach who never found a gig after he was fired were all free of faults in those years?
I even said as much, Robinson was outplayed in that series, no question about it. But he just wasn't outplayed to a level you indicated. Stats were nice, but I wouldn't expect anybody to play well when his opponent is spending all their efforts in stopping him.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyjoe
The far and away #1 reason is because Rodman was not guarding anyone in the series, forcing his team to cover up his mistakes. Hakeem was great in the playoffs, and no doubt Robinson was outplayed in that series, but making it sound like Robinson was not doing his job, while Hakeem averaged 33ppg (2 points less) in the next series' sweep over Orlando with Shaq and Grant doubling him, is not being objective.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyjoe
If I remember correctly, that series was the ONLY series where Hakeem and Robinson met in the playoffs, where Hakeem was at his absolute peak. I have already said Hakeem had a higher peak, and that series proved it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyjoe
Playername PO FG%/Reg FG% PO FT% RS FT%Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyjoe
Shaq - 56.2%/57.9% 51.5%/53.1%
Duncan - 49.7%/50.7% 70.2%/69.2%
Jordan - 48.7%/49.7% 82.8%/83.5%
Robinson - 47.9%/51.8% 70.8%/73.6%
Hakeem - 52.8%/51.2% 71.9%/71.2%
Other than Hakeem, everybody had their FG% drop in the playoffs, and even though Robinson's drop was dramatic, so was Shaq's. Just to single out Robinson while ignoring others is presenting one side of the argument.
Yes, Robinson does not have a go to move, but it is also true that Robinson never had any sort of supporting cast.
I have said it before, Hakeem and Duncan were the ONLY two superstars to have won a championship without a significant supporting cast.
well, they both have cool hair. :)Quote:
I know the difference between Manu Ginobili and fucking Vinny Del Negro...and I truly feel sorry for ya'll that ya'll don't.
Yes, I guess that strategy by the Rockets is borne out by Smith's 3.7 assists per game in the 1995 West Finals. The truth of the matter is that by the 1995 West Finals, Smith started, but played fewer minutes in that series than his backup. Smith averaged 23.8 minutes per game in that series; Cassell averaged 27.3 minutes per game in that series. AJ, by contrast, averaged 37.2 minutes per game.Quote:
Originally Posted by whottt
What is ludicrous about this point is that it presumes that players remain static in their skills and abilities once they've crossed paths. When AJ and Kenny played together in Houston (1991-92), Smith had an established career and AJ was looking for a place to stick. Smith was a first round pick of the Kings in 1986, so in 1991-92, he'd been in the league for 5 seasons and had never played fewer than 1000 minutes in any season. He also had been acquired by Houston in a trade involving Ralph Sampson (IIRC) in 1990 AJ, by contrast, hadn't played a total of 2000 minutes in his career by the time he and Smith crossed paths in Houston. I'd agree that AJ's being Smith's backup in 1991-92 is indicative of the idea that AJ wasn't as good as Smith at that time. But, if you compare just their 1994-95 numbers, that notion seems absurd:
1994-95
AJ: 82 gm; 36.7 mpg, .519 FG, 670 ast (8.2 apg), 3.24 a/to, 13.4 ppg
KS: 82 gm; 25.1 mpg, .484 FG, 323 ast (4.0 apg), 2.63 a/to, 10.4 ppg
My point is that you can't look to one season, when players are at different points in their careers, and conclude that one was better than the other. I doubt that anyone truly believes that any of the players who started ahead of McGrady in Toronto (Tracy started 17 games in 1997-98, 2 games in 1998-99, and 34 games in 1999-2000) will end up being historically better, even though when those players were on the same team, the other guys started and McGrady didn't. AJ got better after 1991-92 and improved enough that he put up better numbers than the guys who once started ahead of him. I can't see that it is preposterous that anyone would choose AJ ahead of Kenny Smith. I would.
When exactly did that happen? Are you positing that Derek Fisher owned AJ for his entire career? Because that would be incorrect. In the only series in which both guys started every game, AJ had better numbers than Fisher and the Spurs swept the Lakers (and AJ drained the one 3 pointer you're always banging on).Quote:
Originally Posted by whottt
1999 WCSF
AJ: 4 gm (4), 39.3 mpg, 17-39 FG (.436), 1-1 3pt (1.000), 8-13 FT (.615), 10.8 ppg, 8.8 apg
DF: 4 gm (4), 30.3 mpg, 12-31 FG (.387), 2-11 3pt (.182), 7-8 FT (.875), 8.3 ppg, 5.3 apg
In the 2001 West Finals, AJ didn't start any games. Terry Porter started all 4 games opposite Fisher. Here's the head-to-head between AJ and Fisher:
2001 WCF
AJ: 4 gm (0), 22.3 mpg, 11-30 FG (.367), 0-1 3pt (.000), 3-6 FT (.500), 6.3 ppg, 2.3 apg
DF: 4 gm (4), 39.3 mpg, 27-44 FG (.614), 15-20 3pt (.750), 1-3 FT (.333), 17.5 ppg, 3.3 apg
I don't have either the time or the inclination to go back and watch the tape to break down Fisher's play against AJ, but the "matchup" as most think of such things, wasn't between AJ and Fisher. It is clear that Terry Porter got absolutely destroyed by Fisher in that series, though.
Perhaps because he had a bad playoff series. Who knows. What history says, though, is that Hakeem's shooting percentage went up at playoff time over the course of his career. You point to an exception as if it proves your theory. Generally, that's not the way that logical arguments work.Quote:
Originally Posted by whottt
Great post Downtown:
I took it as sarcasm by Whott about the K Smith/AJ argument. Anyone who watched bball back then knew the Spurs had the edge at that position. Smith was a much better outside shooter, but AJ was quicker, a much better passer and creator as the stats show, and much better defensively than Kenny and he also ran the break much better. AJ-K Smith that series was a lopsided matchup in SA's favor. Really the only one.
Shaq's drop of 1.5% is not nearly as dramatic as Robinson's of 3.9%. Obviously, you also have to consider absolute levels as ell and Shaq is second to none there. Robinson has the lowest FG% on the list, the largest dropoff on the list, and is also the 1 name on the list that sticks out like a sore thumb.Quote:
Originally Posted by ambchang
I'll ask again. What exactly does your supporting cast have to do with YOUR Go-to move. Did Hakeem have an unstoppable turnaround J because of the wizardry of his great PG's like Kenny Smith, Sleepy Floyd, Matt Maloney, etc or because of his individual skill?
Does Tim Duncan have an extensive repertoire of post up moves because of the great PG's A. Daniels, T. Porter, and T. Parker that he's played with or because he's invested the time and dedication to developing those moves individually?
Saying Robinson had no talent when he played with Elliott and Rodman is just disingenuous. Those guys were both all-star caliber players and DRob played with both for many stretches during his peak years. And AJ was an above average PG. The SPurs were always a good to very good regular season team in the DRob era but an underachieving playoff team. They took on the persona of their leader and star: David RObinson. If the talent was that bad, SA wouldn't have won 50 plus games every year in a very competitive era of MJ, Barkley, Malone, Hakeem, Shaq, etc.
Just try to read better next time, OK? Robinson does not have a goto move, and he is also a part with the Spurs playoff demise, but he is not the ONLY one, there are other reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyjoe
I have no problem saying that Hakeem outplayed Robinson in 95 playoffs, absolutely none whatsoever, because that is what happened. But to say that that is the only/major reason is just plain wrong. Rodman continuously refusing to guard Horry is a one of the major reasons the Spurs lost. If you are telling me that the Spurs can win a series vs. the eventual champs playing 4 on 5 on both offense and defense, then we will just have to disagree.
Yes the Spurs won 50+ games every season with a weak supporting cast. It just speaks to how important Robinson was to the Spurs. Is it a coincidence the year a whole bunch of Spurs players (Johnson, Elliott, Del Negro) had career years was Robinson's MVP year? Is it coincidence that the Spurs won only 20 games the year Robinson was injured? How would a team with Sean Elliott (only 39 games), Vinny Del Negro, Avery Johnson win only 20 games? I am not even asking for a playoff berth, I am saying 20 games, the 2nd worse in the league. And that is basically the exact same team from the year before that won 59 games, finishing first in the Midwest. Know what happened to the Bulls after Jordan went play baseball? They won TWO less games, not 39. And when a team is so overly reliant on ONE player, the team is going to be stopped (see Spurs from 00 to 02). How do you figure the Spurs could still have won the championship this year despite struggles from Duncan (I am taking the twisted ankles in account)? Manu Ginobili, Robert Horry, Bruce Bowen and Tony Parker. Role players have to step up for the team to win as well.
Let's look at the 95:
Robert Horry (PO): 13.5ppg/7RPG/3.5APG/40% 3pt. (2 for 5)
Robert Horry (RS): 10.5ppg/5.1rpg/ 3.4APG/37%3pt (1.3 for 3.5)
Cassell (PO): 11 ppg/4apg
Cassell (RS):9.5 ppg/4.9apg
while for the Spurs, Elliott, Del Negro and Rodman all see their production drop. (Just check basketball-reference, I am too lazy to type them all out)
Saying a certain superstar won more rings as the primary option is definitely the better player and ignoring the supporting cast is just plain wrong. By that logic, Gus Williams is better than John Stockton, Elvin Hayes is better than Malone and Barkley, and Shaq is better than Hakeem and Wilt.
Fact is Shaq had Bryant, Jordan had Pippen, Magic and Kareem and Worthy, Isiah had Dumars, Bird had McHale and Parish, and teams win championships.
And finally, when your teammates suck eggs, the other team will collapse on you to stop you. Scoring is much easier with a single-team than constant double/triple-teaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown
Kenny was used as a shooter.
The Spurs of the Pop era were a carbon copy of those Rockets teams offensively and similar in that they were tough defensively. Right down to Mario Elie.
Um...AJ was dishing it into a guy that was a near automatic assist...Kenny Smith was throwing it into a guy that would put it on the floor.Quote:
What is ludicrous about this point is that it presumes that players remain static in their skills and abilities once they've crossed paths. When AJ and Kenny played together in Houston (1991-92), Smith had an established career and AJ was looking for a place to stick. Smith was a first round pick of the Kings in 1986, so in 1991-92, he'd been in the league for 5 seasons and had never played fewer than 1000 minutes in any season. He also had been acquired by Houston in a trade involving Ralph Sampson (IIRC) in 1990 AJ, by contrast, hadn't played a total of 2000 minutes in his career by the time he and Smith crossed paths in Houston. I'd agree that AJ's being Smith's backup in 1991-92 is indicative of the idea that AJ wasn't as good as Smith at that time. But, if you compare just their 1994-95 numbers, that notion seems absurd:
1994-95
AJ: 82 gm; 36.7 mpg, .519 FG, 670 ast (8.2 apg), 3.24 a/to, 13.4 ppg
KS: 82 gm; 25.1 mpg, .484 FG, 323 ast (4.0 apg), 2.63 a/to, 10.4 ppg
Kenny Smith was also the guy that lead the Rockets on an 18 game winning streak or something like that when Hakeem got his skull cracked by Bill Cartwright.
Why can't I? You guys are looking at one playoff series to judge Drob.Quote:
My point is that you can't look to one season, when players are at different points in their careers, and conclude that one was better than the other.
Um...Rudy T would have...he loves the 3. He surrounded Hakeem with shooters that punished teams that doubled him...Quote:
I can't see that it is preposterous that anyone would choose AJ ahead of Kenny Smith. I would.
It's really not Rocket science.
Look at what Rudy tried to do in LA this year...
Look at the fact that Hakeem's teams started winning titles after they made more 3 pointers than any team in NBA history.
How hard is this stuff to see really?
Hakeem's title teams punished double teams...just like the Spurs title winning teams have done...
Drob never had anyone that punished a double team...and if you think AJ and Vinny D did this then your knowledge of the game is more limited than I realized.
Quote:
When exactly did that happen? Are you positing that Derek Fisher owned AJ for his entire career? Because that would be incorrect. In the only series in which both guys started every game, AJ had better numbers than Fisher and the Spurs swept the Lakers (and AJ drained the one 3 pointer you're always banging on).
1999 WCSF
AJ: 4 gm (4), 39.3 mpg, 17-39 FG (.436), 1-1 3pt (1.000), 8-13 FT (.615), 10.8 ppg, 8.8 apg
DF: 4 gm (4), 30.3 mpg, 12-31 FG (.387), 2-11 3pt (.182), 7-8 FT (.875), 8.3 ppg, 5.3 apg
Yeah...DFish sucked so bad that Pop tried to sign him the first chance he got.
Quote:
In the 2001 West Finals, AJ didn't start any games. Terry Porter started all 4 games opposite Fisher. Here's the head-to-head between AJ and Fisher:
2001 WCF
AJ: 4 gm (0), 22.3 mpg, 11-30 FG (.367), 0-1 3pt (.000), 3-6 FT (.500), 6.3 ppg, 2.3 apg
DF: 4 gm (4), 39.3 mpg, 27-44 FG (.614), 15-20 3pt (.750), 1-3 FT (.333), 17.5 ppg, 3.3 apg
I don't have either the time or the inclination to go back and watch the tape to break down Fisher's play against AJ, but the "matchup" as most think of such things, wasn't between AJ and Fisher. It is clear that Terry Porter got absolutely destroyed by Fisher in that series, though.
Yeah...that's why the Spurs kept Porter and let AJ go.
Quote:
Perhaps because he had a bad playoff series. Who knows. What history says, though, is that Hakeem's shooting percentage went up at playoff time over the course of his career. You point to an exception as if it proves your theory. Generally, that's not the way that logical arguments work.
Um...logic would dictate that you look at Drob's first two playoff series...
What is your reasoning behind him shooting so well?
He played good?
So he got worse when he played with the great AJ?
He got softer?
He turned into a choker?
Explain it...
I think it's a simple matter...he had guards that couldn't shoot and couldn't create, and would have been....no scratch that...were back ups on any team that didn't feature David Robinson.
Meanwhile...David had his greatest individual season..without AJ...without Elliott....yet it was also his most disappointing post season...why? Because it was the least talented team he ever played on.
And Duncan didn't win any titles with the Vinny AJ combo either, not even when he had David Robinson which is a hell of a lot more than Drob ever had. . They got Jazzed just like Drob's teams...and kinda like the Lakers did to us last year......
I'll respond to the rest of the post later. For now, though, reading this got me to wondering if you base your assertions about Smith on his 39 total shots over 6 games in the 1995 West Finals? (6 shots per game), or on his 13 total three pointers (2+ 3ptA per game)?Quote:
Originally Posted by whottt
If the Rockets were using Smith as a shooter in that series, he seemed to have not gotten that message.
Gm 1: 2-7 FG; 0-1 3pt
Gm 2: 2-4 FG; 1-2
Gm 3: 4-8 FG; 4-5
Gm 4: 6-12 FG; 1-3 (Spurs blowout win)
Gm 5: 0-0 FG; 0-0
Gm 6: 2-8 FG; 1-7
That's funny, comparing Saint David to the juvenile delinquent Bad News Bears outfielder.Quote:
You can point to IBM awards (btw -- if the absence of serviceable teammates explains David's playoff struggles, doesn't that same problem also explain David's regular season statistical greatness; I mean, isn't he, in a sense, the Kelly Leak of the mid-90's NBA?).
(I have nothing constructive to add to this argument.)