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Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Prayer
Christian theocratic supremacists go nuts!
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-pol...tter989173&t=5
America gets more fucked every time The Five vote.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
That basically follows precedent -- Marsh v. Chambers, specifically. Ceremonial prayers during the meetings of governmental bodies have been permissible for some time. This case might have been a closer call than Marsh if only because the town was less pluralistic in who is permitted to pray, but I don't find this result particularly surprising.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
I hope somebody keeps score of how many govt meetings open with Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc prayers.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Shitty shitty ruling.
Slippery slope imo is that it leads to allowing prayer in the public classrooms too.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blake
Shitty shitty ruling.
Slippery slope imo is that it leads to allowing prayer in the public classrooms too.
Without reading the specific reasoning in the majority opinion, the Court's jurisprudence for about 30 years or so has drawn a pretty clear distinction between the constitutionality of prayer in forums where the likelihood of coercion is small (i.e., public forums where mostly adults who understand that they can walk out or protest without meaningful reprisals and where parents can remove children if they would prefer they not be in that environment) and those where the likelihood of coercion is high (i.e., schools, where impressionable children may not understand that they can opt-out or protest and where participation might be expected because of peer pressures or fear of gaining the disapproval of teachers (for example)).
Unless there's something in the majority today that suggests that those considerations should be ignored, I'm personally not terribly concerned with a drift toward organized school prayer.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FromWayDowntown
Without reading the specific reasoning in the majority opinion, the Court's jurisprudence for about 30 years or so has drawn a pretty clear distinction between the constitutionality of prayer in forums where the likelihood of coercion is small (i.e., public forums where mostly adults who understand that they can walk out or protest without meaningful reprisals and where parents can remove children if they would prefer they not be in that environment) and those where the likelihood of coercion is high (i.e., schools, where impressionable children may not understand that they can opt-out or protest and where participation might be expected because of peer pressures or fear of gaining the disapproval of teachers (for example)).
Unless there's something in the majority today that suggests that those considerations should be ignored, I'm personally not terribly concerned with a drift toward organized school prayer.
Kennedy states there is no coercion at all.
if a simple prayer by the speaker is not indicative of coercion, then age is basically irrelevant and prayer in public school is going to make a comeback, imo.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blake
if a simple prayer by the speaker is not indicative of coercion, then age is basically irrelevant and prayer in public school is going to make a comeback, imo.
Possible difference would be that in a classroom setting, children would be coerced to behave/keep quiet during the prayer, etc., and that would be basically the same as coercing them to listen/pray.
Also, children are seen as more prone to coercion, legally speaking.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Ah, check this out:
Quote:
Public school teachers in Alabama would be required to begin each day by reading opening prayers that were given in Congress under a bill proposed by a Republican lawmaker.The bill would set aside 15 minutes at the start of each school day to study the procedures of Congress, and give a verbatim reading of a congressional opening prayer, The Anniston Star reported.......
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...-read-prayers/
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blake
Ah, check this out:
From the comment section. ""The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-8"
Interesting quote from Jefferson.
I"ll fall in with you, Blake. I'm not behind prayers in public schools. Seems like to me, prayer is not, in and of itself, beholden to a structural setting. A person is free to pray whenever they deem appropriate. Those that wish to pray do not need a time set aside for that.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TeyshaBlue
I"ll fall in with you, Blake. I'm not behind prayers in public schools. Seems like to me, prayer is not, in and of itself, beholden to a structural setting. A person is free to pray whenever they deem appropriate. Those that wish to pray do not need a time set aside for that.
I'm against prayer in any public setting that is set up by tax dollars in which the speaker basically has a captive audience.
i.e. government meetings and public school classrooms
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
The same situational logic would apply to prayer anywhere. I dont see the need for structure to facilitate prayer.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
boutons_deux
Why?
There is no such thing as "separation of church and state."
lease show me where is the constitution that applies.
Have you ever read the first amendment?
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Shall make no law. under freedom of speech, this means no law shall be made prohibiting religion as well.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wild Cobra
Why?
There is no such thing as "separation of church and state."
lease show me where is the constitution that applies.
Have you ever read the first amendment?
Shall make no law. under freedom of speech, this means no law shall be made prohibiting religion as well.
You think the idea must reside in the constitution to apply?
So segregation of races is fine because the constitution does not explicitly define this question?
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
we had moments of silence tbh
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Reckoning
we had moments of silence tbh
We still do in Texas.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
If meetings can begin with prayers in theses structured settings just bog em down with prayers from Hindus to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Jesus just get to work, this meeting will last into eternity, Amen.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wild Cobra
Why?
There is no such thing as "separation of church and state."
lease show me where is the constitution that applies.
Have you ever read the first amendment?
Shall make no law. under freedom of speech, this means no law shall be made prohibiting religion as well.
Congress starting session with a Judeo-Christian prayer is very close to establishing a religion if it's not.
In any case, it can be offensive to non-Jew/Christians. It's definitively un-American, tbh.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pgardn
If meetings can begin with prayers in theses structured settings just bog em down with prayers from Hindus to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Jesus just get to work, this meeting will last into eternity, Amen.
Need an atheist prayer
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TeyshaBlue
Pray for steak.
Holy cow
Rimshot.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pgardn
You think the idea must reside in the constitution to apply?
No, I'm saying the constitution specifically says the government may not make such laws.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pgardn
So segregation of races is fine because the constitution does not explicitly define this question?
That's why we had the 13th and 14th amendments.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blake
Holy cow
Rimshot.
:lol
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wild Cobra
No, I'm saying the constitution specifically says the government may not make such laws.
Nobody's making laws prohibiting religion.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wild Cobra
No, I'm saying the constitution specifically says the government may not make such laws.
That's why we had the 13th and 14th amendments.
Yes so what?
You brought the constitution into it.
The 1st amendment could be interpreted in different ways. That's ultimately why these things are argued over. You imply the constitution makes this case clear and it does no such thing.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
This whole prayer bullshit is nothing but Pharisiacal "look at me and how religious I am, plus Christ told me to kick all y'all's non-Christian asses".
WTF good, or difference, does an opening prayer make to a classroom or govt meeting? Totally gratuitous religion-izing bullshit.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
boutons_deux
This whole prayer bullshit is nothing but Pharisiacal "look at me and how religious I am, plus Christ told me to kick all y'all's non-Christian asses".
WTF good, or difference, does an opening prayer make to a classroom or govt meeting? Totally gratuitous religion-izing bullshit.
What about the pledge?
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pgardn
What about the pledge?
fuck the Pledge, too, esp the fake "Under God" modification. :lol
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
boutons_deux
fuck the Pledge, too, esp the fake "Under God" modification. :lol
So just a good wrap with the gavel and get things started.
I always thought a good monotonous chant was the right way to settle the masses for business.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pgardn
So just a good wrap with the gavel and get things started.
I always thought a good monotonous chant was the right way to settle the masses for business.
saying "let's get things started" works just fine
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
boutons_deux
fuck the Pledge, too, esp the fake "Under God" modification. :lol
And y'all Super Patriots can stick Red-Glaring Rockets up your asses and give up on the bloody, war-minded National Anthem and the accompanying multi-branch, military-glorifying color guard. :lol
It's ALL bullshit and self-stroking myths.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wild Cobra
Why?
Shall make no law. under freedom of speech, this means no law shall be made prohibiting religion as well.
who's prohibiting religion?
the FFs were extremely aware of the ancient, corrupt, toxic power amalgam of Church + State in Europe, want to preclude, FIRST! amendment, any such horror in USA.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
boutons undoubtedly enjoyed the hell out of Super Patriot, uber conservative local radio talking head Joe Pags turning the National Anthem into some jazzy/bluesy tune before Game 7 of the Spurs-Mavericks' series.
I doubt that guy (Pags) has ever taken anyone to task for not correctly honoring the flag or the anthem.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
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Originally Posted by
Winehole23
"When asked if he would allow representatives from non-Christian faiths and non-faiths, including Jews, Muslims, atheists and others, the Hollins District supervisor said he likely would not."
iow, "My Fairy Tales are better than Your Fairy Tales".
Thanks, SCOTUS FIVE! Fucking up the country with every decision
and SCOTUS FIVE lets NDAA continue to lock up Americans forever, no access to lawyers, no trial.
VRWC SCOTUS is pushing the Constitution aside, we are now post-Constitutional, exactly as the VRWC always intended.
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Re: Separation of Church and State: SCOTUS Rules Town Can Begin Meetings with a Praye
Lol
Scotus 5 sounds like a navy seal unit or something
