It hasn't been stated enough, but Kawhi Leonard Is more Valuable than Manu..

Just a refresher..I hope to God none of the Morons in ST think Ginobili at this point of his career is more valuable.

Leonard>>>>>Ginobili...

I just needed to say that.

psst...this is spurstalk.

I don't think anybody thinks otherwise.

It was really noticeable for those 7 games against dallas how incredibly more valuable. If only 36 year old manu were as consistent as him.

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Originally Posted by dg7md

I don't think anybody thinks otherwise.

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Wow, the OP really hasn't been reading this board for the past 3 years. 2 Years ago many said Kawhi surpassed Manu as the 3rd best player on this team, and I agree. Honestly, I have Manu as the 5th best player behind Parker, Duncan, Kawhi, Splitter. Even then, Mills, Diaw, Beli, Green can outplay Manu on a given night.

Spurs are not depended on Manu like they use to be. But he is still a vital part of this team's success. He was crucial in the Spurs going on the 19 games winning streak (over half the games w/o Parker) and getting HC advantage in this year's playoff.

Quit hating on Manu, IMO he has done his part this year in helping the Spurs (HC and getting them past Dallas). Anything more is just gravy. He hasn't done anything thus far to screw the Spurs this year and hopefully it stays that way.

I see a bunch of Manu hate, more than praise these days. Ever since 6, I have found that the majority are anti-Manu, but I might have just been looking in the wrong places.

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Originally Posted by dg7md

I see a bunch of Manu hate, more than praise these days. Ever since 6, I have found that the majority are anti-Manu, but I might have just been looking in the wrong places.

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You aren't looking in the wrong places. Nearly everyone either turned on Manu or stopped backing him/being a fan.

3 years ago I felt MUCH differently about him than I do now. He has not aged gracefully. I still appreciate what he did, and the lesser extent of it that he does now, but honestly, I don't get excited for big Manu games anymore. He shat the bed and was the worst player on the team by far during the game that we should have won the title in. He literally can't make up for it unless we're getting steamrolled in the Finals this year and he puts us on his back and carries us to multiple wins while playing way above his head. Nothing else will undo it for me. Even that barely will since we should be going for #6 this year, not #5.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

You aren't looking in the wrong places. Nearly everyone either turned on Manu or stopped backing him/being a fan.

3 years ago I felt MUCH differently about him than I do now. He has not aged gracefully. I still appreciate what he did, and the lesser extent of it that he does now, but honestly, I don't get excited for big Manu games anymore. He shat the bed and was the worst player on the team by far during the game that we should have won the title in. He literally can't make up for it unless we're getting steamrolled in the Finals this year and he puts us on his back and carries us to multiple wins while playing way above his head. Nothing else will undo it for me. Even that barely will since we should be going for #6 this year, not #5.

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I don't know why people blame Manu. Spurs were up by double digit by the time he had 6 of his 8 TOs. To me Neal's atrocious D on Miller and Pops decision to take Tim out the game is what ultimately cost the Spurs the game.

IMO, Miami does not get two offensive Rebounds with Tim in the game on TWO FREAKIN CONSECUTIVE POSSESSIONS. That IMO, will be the decision that cost the Spurs the title, BOTTOM LINE. Pop cost the Spurs the title, not Manu.

How can legit Spurs fan speak negatively about one the top 6 Spurs players all time??/ Yes he's getting old, but you can never question his heart and hustle. All the greats slide at the age of 36, give him a break, you moron.
:nope

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Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

I don't know why people blame Manu. Spurs were up by double digit by the time he had 6 of his 8 TOs. To me Neal's atrocious D on Miller and Pops decision to take Tim out the game is what ultimately cost the Spurs the game.

IMO, Miami does not get two offensive Rebounds with Tim in the game on TWO FREAKIN CONSECUTIVE POSSESSIONS. That IMO, will be the decision that cost the Spurs the title, BOTTOM LINE. Pop cost the Spurs the title, not Manu.

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Don't get it twisted. Manu cost the spurs a title. He wasn't the only one who made mistakes in game 6, but he sure as hell made the most of them. That's why he should rightfully be blamed.

Manu was Portlands best player last night...and it wasn't close.

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Originally Posted by jARS mEsH sEt

Don't get it twisted. Manu cost the spurs a title. He wasn't the only one who made mistakes in game 6, but he sure as hell made the most of them. That's why he should rightfully be blamed.

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6 of his TOs came in the 1st half I believe. He only had two in the 2nd half and the Spurs had a double digit lead. Parker took the majority of the shots in the 2nd half and finish 6-23 shooting. Tell me how its Manu's fault. People just look at those 8 TOs in the stat sheet and say it was Manu's fault.

It came down to two plays, two plays and the best player ever in your franchise history and the best PF ever in the NBA wasn't even on the floor. Tell me who was responsible for this happening.

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Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

6 of his TOs came in the 1st half I believe. He only had two in the 2nd half and the Spurs had a double digit lead. Parker took the majority of the shots in the 2nd half and finish 6-23 shooting. Tell me how its Manu's fault. People just look at those 8 TOs in the stat sheet and say it was Manu's fault.

It came down to two plays, two plays and the best player ever in your franchise history and the best PF ever in the NBA wasn't even on the floor. Tell me who was responsible for this happening.

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It doesn't matter when the mistake happened. All that matters is that it happened. Again, no player ever plays a perfect game so everyone is culpable to some degree. Parker shot like ass for the game. That's a mistake. Leonard missed a game winning free throw. That's a mistake. Pop pulled Duncan for the last play. That's a mistake...in hindsight.

Manu missed a game winning free throw. That's a mistake. Manu turned the ball over. That's a mistake. Manu turned the ball over..again. That's a mistake. Manu turned the ball over..again. That's a mistake. Manu turned the ball over.. yet again. That's a mistake. Manu then proceeded to turn the ball over another time. That's a mistake. Manu then followed up that gaffe by..you guessed it..turning the ball over, yet again. He then proceeded to turn the ball over, which flowed naturally into turning the ball over.

We we lost a ring because of Manu.

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Originally Posted by jARS mEsH sEt

It doesn't matter when the mistake happened. All that matters is that it happened. Again, no player ever plays a perfect game so everyone is culpable to some degree. Parker shot like ass for the game. That's a mistake. Leonard missed a game winning free throw. That's a mistake. Pop pulled Duncan for the last play. That's a mistake...in hindsight.

Manu missed a game winning free throw. That's a mistake. Manu turned the ball over. That's a mistake. Manu turned the ball over..again. That's a mistake. Manu turned the ball over..again. That's a mistake. Manu turned the ball over.. yet again. That's a mistake. Manu then proceeded to turn the ball over another time. That's a mistake. Manu then followed up that gaffe by..you guessed it..turning the ball over, yet again. He then proceeded to turn the ball over, which flowed naturally into turning the ball over.

We we lost a ring because of Manu.

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As any great coach would say, it doesn't matter what happens beforehand, it if you are in the game at the end, its the last plays that matter.

Spurs had the momentum, then Boom, Pop pulls Duncan and the rest is history. You say it was Manu, fine, that is your opinion. But there is nothing you can ever say to change my mind that Pop cost the Spurs the game.

I was FUCKIN LIVID when Pop benched Duncan and wasn't the least surprised of the outcome. All it reminded me of was the Pacers doing the same exact thing the previous round w/ Hibbert. Guess what, Pacers lost game 1, and one play the Heat got the Off rb and a put back, the other, Lebron waltz right in for an easy layup.

You can throw all of Manu's TO out the window, the Spurs were up by 5 with 28 seconds and just needed 1 defensive rebound and that game would have been over.

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Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

6 of his TOs came in the 1st half I believe. He only had two in the 2nd half and the Spurs had a double digit lead. Parker took the majority of the shots in the 2nd half and finish 6-23 shooting. Tell me how its Manu's fault. People just look at those 8 TOs in the stat sheet and say it was Manu's fault.

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It was Manu's fault, the TO's and his poor play prevented the Spurs from gaining any sort of rhythm, from going on any runs, just like last night.

Nba games are often won and lost by teams making runs, just look at the 1st game against POR (I think) that game was over in the 1st Quarter, no matter how well they played in the 2nd half, it was not enough to overcome the lead they had lost in the 1st.

And I agree with the OP. The only thing Manu is better at is creating, however Leonard is no slouch, he has shown flashes of potential when they decide to run the offense through him.

He can take over on defense, which leads to transition points, dunks, wide open layups, etc. the Spurs start playing as a team offensively and defensively which makes them hard to beat. Plus he's extremely efficient, each missed shot is basically giving the other team another chance.

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Originally Posted by KL2

It was Manu's fault, the TO's and his poor play prevented the Spurs from gaining any sort of rhythm, from going on any runs, just like last night.

Nba games are often won and lost by teams making runs, just look at the 1st game against POR (I think) that game was over in the 1st Quarter, no matter how well they played in the 2nd half, it was not enough to overcome the lead they had lost in the 1st.

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Wow, so being up 5 points with 28 seconds and your blaming Manu for the lack of runs. And Parker missing like 12 shots in the 2nd half didn't stop the Spurs from making runs. Love the logic.

I might be the minority, and in my book Timmy and Kawhi are 1A and 1B, and Tony is 2, even not considering last night's game. At least that should be the way for the Spurs to have a chance against OKC and the Heat. As much as fans like to see the offense, it's the defense that wins the championship, the same for LeBron and the Heat.

Jars keeping it real. Manu had two turnovers in Game Six at the worst time. Out of control silly turnovers. And early shot clock hero bricks. Change any of that and Miami doesn't have time to tie us. We win.

Wow this blows my mind, a 22 year old with a bright future ahead is more valuable than a 36 year old man as a player, as an investment and to god if he is not squashed by a truck/train.
Manu has already done good stuff here, apalisuck you are just a bandwagoner.

Well, if we take into account future value, Leonard is more valuable than Timmy, too, and quite possibly Tony. It's just the way it is when two of your better players are TOSBs in their upper 30s with a year or two left before they hang it up.

Our TOSBs actually are doing pretty well for their ages, though. Manu and Timmy are the two best players in the upper 30s in the NBA. Just look at Kevin Garnett. :lol

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Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

It came down to two plays, two plays and the best player ever in your franchise history and the best PF ever in the NBA wasn't even on the floor. Tell me who was responsible for this happening.

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Who on earth was Duncan going to guard on those possessions? Miami had the floor stacked with shooters (though we all know Wade isn't the best from three) - Miller on the first possession and Bosh on the second (Miller had 5 fouls and Heat needed rebounding after Kawhi's miss), Lebron/Wade/Allen/Chalmers. The last thing you want Timmy doing is chasing down a three point shooter; Diaw was simply the better option. Anyone would rather not allow an open three attempt and take their chances to get the rebound.

Who knows that Duncan is in rebounding position anyway if he's out at the line guarding Bosh or Miller? Plus Lebron's two misses were absolute bricks which tend to have funky rebounds.

Hindsight is 20/20 and this horse is beaten to death.

Gino had some kind words about Leonard and Danny after yesterday's game. I'll try to find them.

Manu is getting old so I don't expect him to play the way he did 10 years ago but at the same time for being a part of the legendary Spurs Big 3 we CAN NOT afford for him to be the worst, or even one of the worst, players on this team. If Manu can just put up modest numbers with good efficiency that's all we can realistically ask of him, with anything else being gravy. That being said the only way the Spurs win it all this year is if Manu plays like he's still a top 3 player on this team.

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Originally Posted by cjw

Who on earth was Duncan going to guard on those possessions? Miami had the floor stacked with shooters (though we all know Wade isn't the best from three) - Miller on the first possession and Bosh on the second (Miller had 5 fouls and Heat needed rebounding after Kawhi's miss), Lebron/Wade/Allen/Chalmers. The last thing you want Timmy doing is chasing down a three point shooter; Diaw was simply the better option. Anyone would rather not allow an open three attempt and take their chances to get the rebound.

Who knows that Duncan is in rebounding position anyway if he's out at the line guarding Bosh or Miller? Plus Lebron's two misses were absolute bricks which tend to have funky rebounds.

Hindsight is 20/20 and this horse is beaten to death.

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Zone, ever heard of it play a 4-1 zone and have Duncan guard the paint or the guy closest to the paint whoever, that might be. Never under any circumstances do you take out your best rebounder and shot blocker out in the final moments of a game. Both the Pacers and the Spurs learn that lesson the hard way last year.

And it wasn't hindsight for me. I knew the Pop was making a big mistake when he took Duncan out. Bosh shot 28% or something like that for the series. Were you really worry about him hitting a 3 at that point.

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Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

Wow, so being up 5 points with 28 seconds and your blaming Manu for the lack of runs. And Parker missing like 12 shots in the 2nd half didn't stop the Spurs from making runs. Love the logic.

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Manu's TO's kept that game from being wide open, Parker certainly had something to do with the loss, however I somewhat give him a pass considering he was injured. The Spurs could've easily and I mean easily blown that game wide open, Manu completely halted the offense, as he did yesterday.

Either way Manu was pretty bad the entire playoffs, even in the GS series where he played "well".

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

You aren't looking in the wrong places. Nearly everyone either turned on Manu or stopped backing him/being a fan.

3 years ago I felt MUCH differently about him than I do now. He has not aged gracefully. I still appreciate what he did, and the lesser extent of it that he does now, but honestly, I don't get excited for big Manu games anymore. He shat the bed and was the worst player on the team by far during the game that we should have won the title in. He literally can't make up for it unless we're getting steamrolled in the Finals this year and he puts us on his back and carries us to multiple wins while playing way above his head. Nothing else will undo it for me. Even that barely will since we should be going for #6 this year, not #5.

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him aging is not the issue. everyone gets older and doens't play as good as they did in their prime, but ginobli is STILL taking bad shots and trying to do too much at his age now. he thinks it's 2005 and it's not. he gets in the game and starts to turn the ball over, taking bad 3 point shots, flopping all over the place and it screws with us on offense.

People forget Manu was the best player in the fourth quarter of game seven. Down by 4, Manu hits the big 3, steals the ball and makes a nice Euro in to cut the lead to one. People also forget that Timmy didn't run the PNR, which caused that horrible TO by Manu..

Too much hate. He's not as valuable to the team as Leonard... but he is still the better all-around player IMO.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Gino had some kind words about Leonard and Danny after yesterday's game. I'll try to find them.

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here we go sir

"What Patty (Mills) did today was outstanding," Ginobili said. "Patty, Danny, and Kawhi, especially, were fantastic. We struggled all series in the third quarters, and they really stepped up. They were aggressive, getting steals, running the transition and ones we got that lead back to 20, it kind of felt like it was over."

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Originally Posted by KL2

Manu's TO's kept that game from being wide open, Parker certainly had something to do with the loss, however I somewhat give him a pass considering he was injured. The Spurs could've easily and I mean easily blown that game wide open, Manu completely halted the offense, as he did yesterday.

Either way Manu was pretty bad the entire playoffs, even in the GS series where he played "well".

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Do you guys hear yourselves? "Manu's 2 TO's the entire game caused the game to not be a blowout". Stop picking and choosing. Literally any team would love to have Manu's services..

:lol at the continual gnashing of teeth over Manu's supposed turnover woes.

The bitching about shot selection is kind of warranted, but not the turnovers as it's really not different than it's ever been with Manu.

Manu is averaging 2.8 TOPG in these playoffs. That's less than Parker (3.0).

Now, let's look at Manu's TOPG in the playoffs throughout his career. You'll see that this year is better than some years, but mostly in line with his entire career. Manu is a high-risk, high-reward player. Duh.

2002-2003: 1.5
2003-2004: 2.5
2004-2005: 2.9 (Manu's God-mode playoff run)
2005-2006: 2.5
2006-2007: 2.1
2007-2008: 2.8
2008-2009: DNP (Injured)
2009-2010: 3.0
2010-2011: 3.4
2011-2012: 3.0
2012-2013: 2.7
2013-2014: 2.8

So, right now he is averaging the second-least turnovers committed since the Spurs last won the LOB.

Now, his shooting percentage right now (39%) is another story, but that's neither here, nor there... :downspin:

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Originally Posted by jARS mEsH sEt

It doesn't matter when the mistake happened. All that matters is that it happened. Again, no player ever plays a perfect game so everyone is culpable to some degree. Parker shot like ass for the game. That's a mistake. Leonard missed a game winning free throw. That's a mistake. Pop pulled Duncan for the last play. That's a mistake...in hindsight.

Manu missed a game winning free throw. That's a mistake. Manu turned the ball over. That's a mistake. Manu turned the ball over..again. That's a mistake. Manu turned the ball over..again. That's a mistake. Manu turned the ball over.. yet again. That's a mistake. Manu then proceeded to turn the ball over another time. That's a mistake. Manu then followed up that gaffe by..you guessed it..turning the ball over, yet again. He then proceeded to turn the ball over, which flowed naturally into turning the ball over.

We we lost a ring because of Manu.

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And we won three with him, two because of him. I'll take it.

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Originally Posted by N0 LyF3 ScRuB

And we won three with him, two because of him. I'll take it.

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We won one because of him (2005), lost one because of him (2013), and potentially lost one because of him (2006), although to be brutally honest with the way Wade was treated during that series we may not have beaten Miami in '06 so that one deserves a *.

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Originally Posted by Brazil

here we go sir

"What Patty (Mills) did today was outstanding," Ginobili said. "Patty, Danny, and Kawhi, especially, were fantastic. We struggled all series in the third quarters, and they really stepped up. They were aggressive, getting steals, running the transition and ones we got that lead back to 20, it kind of felt like it was over."

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Thank you. I read it last night and couldn't find the quote.

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Originally Posted by james evans

him aging is not the issue. everyone gets older and doens't play as good as they did in their prime, but ginobli is STILL taking bad shots and trying to do too much at his age now. he thinks it's 2005 and it's not. he gets in the game and starts to turn the ball over, taking bad 3 point shots, flopping all over the place and it screws with us on offense.

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Is what we have for good and bad, when he played great against Dallas nobody said a thing, he took shots, attacked the rim and tony helped the last 2 games.
Against Dallas Manu took the risk because our young promises (belli, patty and boris who is not so young anyway) were failing.
When role dudes sucks Manu feels he needs to do things and sometimes he screws it but it worked for game 5, people tend to forget Danny Tony and Gary shitting the bed in game 6, Manu was horrible and he missed the freebie, and so Kawhi, the pressure was too much it doesnt matter if he made 20 points he missed too.
Add to the mix Pop benching Duncan and refs swallowing whistles on Gay Ray 2 times the last 40 seconds and you have a big Turd Cake.
Bandwagoners needs to be objective just like pigs needs to fly.

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Originally Posted by superjames1992

:lol at the continual gnashing of teeth over Manu's supposed turnover woes.

The bitching about shot selection is kind of warranted, but not the turnovers as it's really not different than it's ever been with Manu.

Manu is averaging 2.8 TOPG in these playoffs. That's less than Parker (3.0).

Now, let's look at Manu's TOPG in the playoffs throughout his career. You'll see that this year is better than some years, but mostly in line with his entire career. Manu is a high-risk, high-reward player. Duh.

2002-2003: 1.5
2003-2004: 2.5
2004-2005: 2.9 (Manu's God-mode playoff run)
2005-2006: 2.5
2006-2007: 2.1
2007-2008: 2.8
2008-2009: DNP (Injured)
2009-2010: 3.0
2010-2011: 3.4
2011-2012: 3.0
2012-2013: 2.7
2013-2014: 2.8

So, right now he is averaging the second-least turnovers committed since the Spurs last won the LOB.

Now, his shooting percentage right now (39%) is another story, but that's neither here, nor there... :downspin:

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His turnovers per game are down because Pop is sitting him, finally. After he sparks the other team to a run with bad shots and turnovers he gets the hook. Finally. Thank gawd.

and TOPG is meaningless without context. A game or two with no turnovers in a blowout cannot makeup for a Game Six with eight and a lost title.

I was pretty hesitant to say that all year considering how much Manu facilitates the 2nd unit, but I'd agree with the statement now. He's the only person on the team who can do the things he does, and what he does is get us easy baskets and a great defender for elite wing players. He's really starting to look like a star

There's a reason why Manu is getting so many TOs: the Spurs don't include him on the pick and rolls and rotation offenses. Manu's in the game for one reason, to become a disruptor for the other team. Manu's the reason that when teams figure out the double and triple screens, he'll be the guy to throw up untimely shots to keep the defenders on their toes and guessing throughout the game. While letting Manu do this, the Spurs have a huge advantage, but it's also a big disadvantage in that Manu doesn't know where the players are running to and their spots.

I said it before, and I'll say it again... a lot of Manu's turnovers during game 6 of the finals was NOT HIS FAULT. It was the result of all the other players clenching their assholes and scared to get another turnover on motion plays. As a result, when Manu passes the ball to where the teammates are running to, they suddenly stop since they're so scared to get the ball stolen. The ball then goes out of bounds or becomes a turnover. Manu's the one registering the turnovers, but it's seriously not his fault - it's the system's flaw.

Kawhi's importance is somewhere in between Green and Mills

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Originally Posted by spurraider21

Kawhi's importance is somewhere in between Green and Mills

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Yeah I bet it is nigga

http://www.deverillweekes.com/blog/w...hn-ireland.jpg

Kawhi is the most important part of this team, Parker can go down and we still have a shot at the title no if Kawhi goes, its over trust me. NO ONE on the team can save us. No Mills, No Diaw, No Belli, No Tim, No Manu, No Green, NOBODY

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Originally Posted by wtgspurs

Kawhi is the most important part of this team, Parker can go down and we still have a shot at the title no if Kawhi goes, its over trust me. NO ONE on the team can save us. No Mills, No Diaw, No Belli, No Tim, No Manu, No Green, NOBODY

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:lol

NO.

Parker is the most important player on the team and it really isn't even debatable, tbh..... It's no coincidence that the Spurs lost games 6 and 7 in last year's Finals when Parker shot a combined 9-35 (25%), tbqh. As Parker goes, the Spurs go.

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Originally Posted by N0 LyF3 ScRuB

Do you guys hear yourselves? "Manu's 2 TO's the entire game caused the game to not be a blowout". Stop picking and choosing. Literally any team would love to have Manu's services..

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2 TO's? :lmao revisionist history

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Originally Posted by superjames1992

:lol

NO.

Parker is the most important player on the team and it really isn't even debatable, tbh..... It's no coincidence that the Spurs lost games 6 and 7 in last year's Finals when Parker shot a combined 9-35 (25%), tbqh. As Parker goes, the Spurs go.

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Lmao, Parker has never lead us to a championship and never will. PG's don't win championships period. Everyone knows his 2007 Finals MVP was a joke, taking advantage of Daniel "Boobie" Gibson :lol, that's some Kobe type shit tbh. Go back and you'll see the last PG Finals MVP was Billups, that year it took Kobe chucking LA out of the Finals. Before that you've got to go back to '90.


Look at what the franchise has done since they gave Parker the green light, 0 championships, year after year of this guy getting locked down by a long defender, the Spurs wondering why they lose :lmao. All these regular season wins don't matter, these consecutive playoff appearances don't mean shit, it's championship or bust.

You're supposed to learn from history, not repeat it, I'm not surprised by your dumb ass though.

I hope Manu breaks his fucking legs so these pathetic morons stop complaining. Stupid haters.

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Originally Posted by Pocho La Pantera

I hope Manu breaks his fucking legs so these pathetic morons stop complaining. Stupid haters.

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better than the haters die

Who gives a shit like fighting over which chick is hotter.........Glad we have both players for Manu to bring his experience and work ethic to the new guys and for the new guys to step up and take over the torch is nice to see.

Manu will always be one of my all time favorite Spur player and yes he is not the player he was but he has my respect. As far as his playing time that's on Pop if a player is not playing good than the coach can put in another player. The problem though is that Green does not have the handles to create like Manu does even at his age. So I guess he is rolling the dice....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KL2

Lmao, Parker has never lead us to a championship and never will. PG's don't win championships period. Everyone knows his 2007 Finals MVP was a joke, taking advantage of Daniel "Boobie" Gibson :lol, that's some Kobe type shit tbh. Go back and you'll see the last PG Finals MVP was Billups, that year it took Kobe chucking LA out of the Finals. Before that you've got to go back to '90.


Look at what the franchise has done since they gave Parker the green light, 0 championships, year after year of this guy getting locked down by a long defender, the Spurs wondering why they lose :lmao. All these regular season wins don't matter, these consecutive playoff appearances don't mean shit, it's championship or bust.

Yeah bro winning championships is just so easy...................:)

You're supposed to learn from history, not repeat it, I'm not surprised by your dumb ass though.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Thank you. I read it last night and couldn't find the quote.

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you're welcome

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

Zone, ever heard of it play a 4-1 zone and have Duncan guard the paint or the guy closest to the paint whoever, that might be. Never under any circumstances do you take out your best rebounder and shot blocker out in the final moments of a game. Both the Pacers and the Spurs learn that lesson the hard way last year.

And it wasn't hindsight for me. I knew the Pop was making a big mistake when he took Duncan out. Bosh shot 28% or something like that for the series. Were you really worry about him hitting a 3 at that point.

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Bosh did hit a game winning three earlier in the year against the Spurs. Parker also stunk in that game until he made what would have been championship winning plays down the stretch. Did the Heat take Lebron off him? No.

How on earth does having someone at the rim help when you KNOW they are shooting a three? Except if you're playing the 06 Mavs and Manu fouls Dirk on a drive to the hole for an and-1.

Very unlikely for the Heat to be going for two on the first possession given the timeout situation and that they were down 5. Down 4, I understand it.

Manu was definitely my favorite Spur and his contributions to the Spurs over the years are priceless...but these days it's gotten more and more painful to watch his often inconsistent and wild play. That style used to be what made him appealing, the Manu giveth and he taketh away...but these days more and more it feels like he damns more than saves.
Like dwelling on that Manu buzzerbeater against GSW last year, that was such an epic moment for me as a Manu fan...but post-G6 I look back and think "You know, Manu's heroics were only necessary because he took some really dumb shots like that totally unnecessary earlier impulsive three that gave the Warriors an opportunity".
These days we're thankful if Manu's gambling break even. Whereas before his wild unpredictable style was IMO the most beautiful basketball out there, now his "wildness" seems to be "take impulsive bad look at a three". I want Manu, not fucking Antoine Walker.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't blame the guy, I'm not going to be that lame fan who calls him "Turnobili"or w/e. Father time is father time (and besides it's not like it's Manu's fault Parker's injury woes forced him into taking on more and more ballhandling duty) Manu doesn't have the lifespan-lengthening benefit of being a seven footer like Timmy. He's lost some steps, some style, and years and years of playing hard and body-sacrificing basketball have caught up to him. It happens to everyone, and hell he still had a great season this year that put him in the best sixth man award convo (plus he'll forever be King of Nutmegs).
It's just...not as fun to watch him play sometimes these days. It's not his fault but it doesn't change the reality: more often than not watching his basketball decisions is an unpleasant experience. That's hard for me to come to terms with or even grasp, considering he was always my favorite member of the Big Three.
And now on the other hand as I find myself deriving less and less enjoyment from watching him play, watching Kawhi is rapidly exponentially heading in the opposite direction (though obviously sadly there's really no one who can replace the thrills Prime Manu gave me).
Father time, man.

He drives me crazy and I wish he had a shorter leash, but he's a special player who has spent his entire career out-competing everyone else on the floor.

Every once in awhile you'll see glimpses of what he used to be and you're reminded of how special he is...and that there will never be another Manu. Then a few possessions later he'll shoot a fadeaway, 25-foot airball and you wish that MFer would retire already.

That's Manu though, and it's Pop's job to know when he can contribute, and when he's a liability. Either way, the Spurs will need he and Boris to be the best players on the 2nd unit if they're going to beat OKC or Miami.

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Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

I don't know why people blame Manu. Spurs were up by double digit by the time he had 6 of his 8 TOs. To me Neal's atrocious D on Miller and Pops decision to take Tim out the game is what ultimately cost the Spurs the game.

IMO, Miami does not get two offensive Rebounds with Tim in the game on TWO FREAKIN CONSECUTIVE POSSESSIONS. That IMO, will be the decision that cost the Spurs the title, BOTTOM LINE. Pop cost the Spurs the title, not Manu.

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Oh believe me, I feel that was a huge mistake too, as well as the unit Pop had on the floor to start the 4th.

MVParker
Duncan
Kawhi
Splitter
Diaw

all those guys are more valuable than Manu. no shit sherlock. way to go out on a limb on that one :lol

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Originally Posted by superjames1992

:lol

NO.

Parker is the most important player on the team and it really isn't even debatable, tbh..... It's no coincidence that the Spurs lost games 6 and 7 in last year's Finals when Parker shot a combined 9-35 (25%), tbqh. As Parker goes, the Spurs go.

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hahaah what?

For the sake of the team Kawhi has to be the 3rd best player. If Manu's the 4th then the Spurs are a pain in the ass to beat when he is on. Leonards per 36 minutes: 16 points, 8.5 RPG, 2.1 Steals

Leonard will likely eclipse 36 mpg during the WCF and the Finals (if we make it that far)

SI.com ran an article about how drastic the Spurs shooting percentages are when he is on/off the floor. At the time it was like +8% when he was on the floor (ridiculous).

His play-making ability can open the offense up and make the Spurs almost unguarded at times. Then there are the bouts with turnovers and inconsistent shooting.

His contributution thus far is pretty impressive 14 points, 5 assists and almost 2 steals per game in the playoffs. His 39% and 31% 3pt shooting numbers are poor but they could easily improve.

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Originally Posted by Kidd K

Oh believe me, I feel that was a huge mistake too, as well as the unit Pop had on the floor to start the 4th.

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Great point

I knew that was a train wreck when I first saw that lineup. I think it was Neal-Manu-Green-Diaw-Splitter

it was like he was playing keep away with the lead, Parker or Duncan should have been out there for the first 4 minutes then sub them out when the other returns for a couple of minutes to be ready to close out.

Splitter and Diaw were non threats on offense and Green was off. Manu struggled and Neal couldn't seem to get a clean shot off without having to pump fake and drive (he was clearly bothered by Miami's length and athleticism).

As for the Duncan sub out. Pop has, at least, been consistent with his use of the "switch everything" philosophy. It's not like he played a hunch and got burned the logic is there but it didn't work out.

It actually made some of sense not having Duncan in (A Bosh screen would have had Duncan either scrambling to cover Bosh our guarding Lebron. Duncan would have either had been mismatched or been waaay out of position to grab a board Splitter is would have been a better option, given his mobility and he is a better rebounder than Diaw.

Maybe even having a Green-Ginobili-Leonard-Diaw-Splitter lineup make sense ,in retrospect, makes sense in terms of versatility and rebounding.

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Originally Posted by cd021

[/B]

Great point

I knew that was a train wreck when I first saw that lineup. I think it was Neal-Manu-Green-Diaw-Splitter

it was like he was playing keep away with the lead, Parker or Duncan should have been out there for the first 4 minutes then sub them out when the other returns for a couple of minutes to be ready to close out.

Splitter and Diaw were non threats on offense and Green was off. Manu struggled and Neal couldn't seem to get a clean shot off without having to pump fake and drive (he was clearly bothered by Miami's length and athleticism).

As for the Duncan sub out. Pop has, at least, been consistent with his use of the "switch everything" philosophy. It's not like he played a hunch and got burned the logic is there but it didn't work out.

It actually made some of sense not having Duncan in (A Bosh screen would have had Duncan either scrambling to cover Bosh our guarding Lebron. Duncan would have either had been mismatched or been waaay out of position to grab a board Splitter is would have been a better option, given his mobility and he is a better rebounder than Diaw.

Maybe even having a Green-Ginobili-Leonard-Diaw-Splitter lineup make sense ,in retrospect, makes sense in terms of versatility and rebounding.

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I think everyone who's watched the Spurs for at least a couple years knew that lineup was going to fold. Imo that was by far Pop's worst mistake, not the Duncan sub. Miami was down by double figs and trying to rally in the early 4th to make it close quick and I am 100% sure they had LeBron out there and I believe also Bosh or Wade but not all 3. And we had NO playmakers out there at all, plus 2 poor defenders, a dude who barely played, and a guy who shat his pants all night.

I was literally yelling at my TV because Pop was treating it like a reg season game with basic rotations by using the 5 worst players of the night to give away all the momentum we had.

Totally agree though, at the very least we needed Parker out there if not Parker and Duncan. No punches should have been pulled, but Pop rolled the dice and crapped out with the quick 6 points getting taken off that big lead in less than 2 minutes.