The Leonard and Green duo

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Originally Posted by ceperez

If anyone is a guaranteed stopper against small guards, it's Leonard. Leonard or Westbrook is the key reason why the Spurs won against the Thunder. Westbrook's efficiency just drops even if his attempts don't.

Green despite being very good, can't affect Westbrook.

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Usually it's the opposite, although I've seen Leonard do great on guys like Cp3 before.

Green was getting bullied out there, WB is a stocky guy and was going right at him. Same thing happened last year's Finals against Miami with Green guarding Wade.

Leonard on the other hand is probably the 2nd biggest SF behind LBJ in the NBA, he used his strength to body up WB and prevent him from penetrating and creating separation.

Green was doing solid on KD too. That's actually a great defensive match up, Green on KD, Leonard on WB. I noticed KD can struggle at times against guards like Green and T. Allen (both defensive minded guards, same height), he has a tendency to put the ball down and get it stripped or stolen by quicker players.

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Originally Posted by ceperez

Leonard or Westbrook is the key reason why the Spurs won against the Thunder. Westbrook's efficiency just drops even if his attempts don't.

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Agree. I've said before Kawhi didn't allow Westbrook get many looks in paint -his penetration killed us in previous games, in game 4, he was 6-of-8 in the paint- holding him to only 1/2 shots at the rim. Plus, Westbrook got up just 12 shots in all game.
But I missed about offensive rebounds, turnovers, etc...

As this guy (PtR) said:

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The brilliant play of the Spurs in the Western Conference Finals was yet another example of the genius of Gregg Popovich. He made headlines in Game 5 when he placed Matt Bonner in the starting lineup to help space the floor and open up driving lanes, relegating Tiago Splitter to a backup role, coming off the bench for Tim Duncan. But that wasn't his most important rearrangement of the chess pieces on the NBA court, the pivotal move had to be using Kawhi Leonard to defend Russell Westbrook.
...In the first half of game five, Kawhi's defense on Westbrook did not look good, Russ just seemed too quick off the dribble for Kawhi. In the second half, Leonard made an adjustment that had Popovich written all over it. He backed off of Westbrook and gave him the deep, low percentage jumper if he wanted it.
This proved extremely effective as Westbrook ended up going 5-of-9 from the field and 1-of-4 from the three point line in Game 5.
In Game 6, Kawhi really settled in against Westbrook. Russell went 8-for-23 and only managed to make one three pointer....
The most impressive aspect of the matchup between Kawhi and Westbrook was the serious problems he caused for Westbrook trying to pass the ball to his teammates. Westbrook turned the ball over seven times in Game 6, after having just 15 in the previous 5 games.
But perhaps even more important was the way Kawhi kept Westbrook off the offensive glass. After getting nine offensive rebounds through the first four games, Westbrook was shut out in games 5 and 6. That's a crucial adjustment in a series where the team who won the rebound battle won every game..."

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http://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/...den-adjustment

Green-Leonard = the best perimeter defensive duo in the league, better than Conley-Allen, Deng-Buttler (before until Deng got traded) or Thompson-Iguodala (Klay defense isn't at an elite level)

These two guys complement each other perfectly, exploit each other's strengths and complimenting their weaknesses.

I explicitly did not mention Westbrook because I remembered Leonard stopping him pretty well ... so he is an exception regarding quick PGs ...but he is also taller than most PGs which makes it more logic for Leonard to guard him

:lol Remember when just signed Udoka and Bowen was still on the team and suddenly there are 2 great perimeter defensive players.

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Originally Posted by Fireball

I explicitly did not mention Westbrook because I remembered Leonard stopping him pretty well ... so he is an exception regarding quick PGs ...but he is also taller than most PGs which makes it more logic for Leonard to guard him

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Not only tall and athletic, but very strong too, that's why Leonard does a bit better on him, but Green is the guy for the Lillard, Curry, Ellis types.

Their defense will be challenged like never before this season.

Defending the title will be the ultimate goal. Pop will push these guys to improve on last year's heroics.
But, yeah, this is a tremendous one-two punch defensively. As strange as this might sound, reminds me of Jordan and Pippen pairing defensively. Kawhi being more Jordanesque with his strength. Or maybe Dennis Johnson/Reggie Lewis, too. DJ was so smart though, Danny Green has a ways to go in that dept.

It looked like DG has figured out a few things personally in his game and in terms of his role on the team. He was spectacular at times in the playoffs. They are already near or at the top of the league defensively and have a LOT of room to grow.

Still can't believe how little credit Green gets for destroying Wade in the Finals. All the media wants to do is say Wade is washed up, but he looked pretty strong in the playoffs up until the Finals. And call the guy washed up, but he had a monster Game 7 in the 2013 Finals.

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Originally Posted by ginobilized

Their defense will be challenged like never before this season.

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Good thing is that Leonard is not satisfied with 1 title and will do everything to improve ... and for Green its a contract year (is it not?), so he will not slow down as well, although he might try to force it on offense a little more

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Originally Posted by ceperez

If anyone is a guaranteed stopper against small guards, it's Leonard. Leonard or Westbrook is the key reason why the Spurs won against the Thunder. Westbrook's efficiency just drops even if his attempts don't.

Green despite being very good, can't affect Westbrook.

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Damn it. Not this again. Green was significantly better on Russ in the WCF. I took the time to quantify the whole thing so people wouldn't make these types of statements. Pop switched Leonard on Westbrook anticipating a 1/3 PnR (meaning Kawhi would get Durant). Brooks countered with isos, which Westbrook won easily (but kept passing out instead of challenging Duncan for some reason) and Durant post-ups which became less and less effective as time went on.

Kawhi's Game Five versus Westbrook was relatively nice (14 points on 13 possessions), but it was still well below what Green (and Parker) held him to for the series. The Thunder offense main stalled because they stopped running their best play, and because neither Durant nor Ibaka could dominate their match-ups.

Plus, Westbrook is 6-6. He's not a small guard at all.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Damn it. Not this again. Green was significantly better on Russ in the WCF. I took the time to quantify the whole thing so people wouldn't make these types of statements. Pop switched Leonard on Westbrook anticipating a 1/3 PnR (meaning Kawhi would get Durant). Brooks countered with isos, which Westbrook won easily (but kept passing out instead of challenging Duncan for some reason) and Durant post-ups which became less and less effective as time went on.

Kawhi's Game Five versus Westbrook was relatively nice (14 points on 13 possessions), but it was still well below what Green (and Parker) held him to for the series. The Thunder offense main stalled because they stopped running their best play, and because neither Durant nor Ibaka could dominate their match-ups.

Plus, Westbrook is 6-6. He's not a small guard at all.

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Yes, that was a great job. But based on those stats, Belli was better, too. So it should be a wake-up call, your stats aren't the one and only truth.
PPP is the only stat deserves to be considered? Shot denied, turnovers, rebounds...a lot of points to take into account.

Maybe people make these types of statements because all media said -and they were right- Kawhi was great on Westbrook in game 5 and 6. All media, not only local media like PtR, 48m or ProjectSpurs.

One of the best OKC offensive weapons is Westbrook penetration. Who can still ignore that Russ killed us in the paint previous games, then with Leonard on him he couldn't create and score with his ability to penetrate.
Plus turnovers, offensive rebounds, etc.

Sorry, but I don't want to debate or argue with you either, I just respond to your opinion. IMO "Leonard was great on Westbrook in game 5 and 6/ best Pop's adjustment", isn't a crazy statement.

A lot has been said about Leonard's defense, so I am going to leave it at that.

But Green's defense has often been overlooked. What is amazing is how quick his hands are, and how well he defends the break. He's a very smart player who obviously spends hours upon hours studying the tendencies of his man, because he seems to know what the players will do before it's done. Green may not have the physical strengths that Leonard has, but he is just as smart, if not smarter, of a defender as Leonard.

His improvement on the offense last year was great as well. I used to cringe whenever he drives, or shoots anything that is not a three or a FT, but he has shown in last year's playoffs that his game has expanded. He can put the ball and drive some, he can shoot pull up 2s, all he has to work on is passing off the dribble, and he'd be a very complete offensive player in the Spurs system.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

Still can't believe how little credit Green gets for destroying Wade in the Finals. All the media wants to do is say Wade is washed up, but he looked pretty strong in the playoffs up until the Finals. And call the guy washed up, but he had a monster Game 7 in the 2013 Finals.

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yep. at the end of the ECF all the talk was about how healthy wade looked, and how much better he'd be in the finals than he was in 2013 because of it.

but the narrative quickly shifted to "oh he's hurt/done" just because Green went in raw

Green whooping Kobe's ass on nba 2k14 lol

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Originally Posted by wildchild

Yes, that was a great job. But based on those stats, Belli was better, too. So it should be a wake-up call, your stats aren't the one and only truth.
PPP is the only stat deserves to be considered? Shot denied, turnovers, rebounds...a lot of points to take into account.

Maybe people make these types of statements because all media said -and they were right- Kawhi was great on Westbrook in game 5 and 6. All media, not only local media like PtR, 48m or ProjectSpurs.

One of the best OKC offensive weapons is Westbrook penetration. Who can still ignore that Russ killed us in the paint previous games, then with Leonard on him he couldn't create and score with his ability to penetrate.
Plus turnovers, offensive rebounds, etc.

Sorry, but I don't want to debate or argue with you either, I just respond to your opinion. IMO "Leonard was great on Westbrook in game 5 and 6/ best Pop's adjustment", isn't a crazy statement.

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I'll leave out much of the stats talk. But Beli doing better on a tiny sample size isn't the same as Green doing better on a sample size as large as Kawhi's. It's simply wrong-headed to use blanket statements to attack all statistical findings.

I just can't understand this whole, "I know what I saw, even though I'm misremembering it," that so many people are taking with this. Westbrook penetrated against Leonard any time he wanted. But Russ just didn't want to attack Duncan for some reason. The Thunder being unable to run the 1/3 PnR was huge, because in the first four games, Kawhi often got confused over whether he was supposed to stay with Durant or switch on Russ. So that left Westbrook open coming off the screen a lot. By Games Five and Six, the Thunder pretty much abandoned their PnR. They instead tried to iso on Green and Bonner, and it didn't work.

The national narrative of the WCF is silly, and it just keeps perpetuating the same misconceptions over and over again. People assume that if a Spur played great defense, then it was probably Leonard, so they attribute it to him. Like you have Mike Breen saying that Green "has become a very solid defender" in the Finals after he had sat there and watched Green dominate defensively the year before. The national media will simply not give Danny credit, which is why Harden got more All-Defense votes.

Again, Leonard was not bad on Westbrook. But he was the third-best Spur against him over the course of the series. I find it absurd to think that was the adjustment that changed the series. That would be like saying that putting Green on Ray Allen is why the Spurs won the Finals.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Westbrook penetrated against Leonard any time he wanted.

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It's hard to believe that a player could penetrate any time he wanted but only got 2 shots in the paint all game.

He didn't shoot, pass, assist in the paint...he didn't create good looks or open 3's, he couldn't cause havoc like other games, so what was the result of those many Westbrook penetrations against Leonard in game 5 and 6?

He didn't want to attack Duncan? Well, I'm not sure. Russ attacked the paint without mercy in previous games but not in game 5/6. You said Leonard had nothing to do with that, obviously I disagree.

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Originally Posted by wildchild

It's hard to believe that a player could penetrate any time he wanted but only got 2 shots in the paint all game.

He didn't shoot, pass, assist in the paint...he didn't create good looks or open 3's, he couldn't cause havoc like other games, so what was the result of those many Westbrook penetrations against Leonard in game 5 and 6?

He didn't want to attack Duncan? Well, I'm not sure. Russ attacked the paint without mercy in previous games but not in game 5/6. You said Leonard had nothing to do with that, obviously I disagree.

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He literally passed the ball back out on nearly every drive into the paint. The reason he didn't get assists is because no Thunder role-player could get going (that was the game where no OKC player outside their Big Four scored until the end of the third quarter). When Russ actually went for it the next game, he scored 34 points and drew four shooting fouls on Leonard.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

The national narrative of the WCF is silly, and it just keeps perpetuating the same misconceptions over and over again. People assume that if a Spur played great defense, then it was probably Leonard, so they attribute it to him. Like you have Mike Breen saying that Green "has become a very solid defender" in the Finals after he had sat there and watched Green dominate defensively the year before. The national media will simply not give Danny credit, which is why Harden got more All-Defense votes.

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People get confused and think Leonard's hype eclipses Green's performances. So wrong, San Antonio never get the media attention, what's new if a Spur/great defender doesn't receive the credit he deserves? It has always been like that...

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Originally Posted by Chinook

He literally passed the ball back out on nearly every drive into the paint. The reason he didn't get assists is because no Thunder role-player could get going (that was the game where no OKC player outside their Big Four scored until the end of the third quarter). When Russ actually went for it the next game, he scored 34 points and drew four shooting fouls on Leonard.

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34 points in the paint...I don't remember that, but if you say so OK.

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Originally Posted by wildchild

34 points in the paint...I don't remember that, but if you say so OK.

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It doesn't matter how Westbrook scored. He scored on Leonard on a higher clip that he did on any of the other primary defenders. And it's not like Russ just got lucky and hit a few threes. Kawhi couldn't stop fouling him. OKC in general stopped attacking the paint because they went away from the 1/3 PnR, which was how Russ was getting open in the first four games.

The biggest reason why the Thunder's offense fell apart was Brooks going away from the PnR, especially the 1/3, but also the 1/4 and 3/4. Brooks tried to outsmart Pop by calling ISO plays, thinking that Durant and Westbrook would win their match-ups. He was very wrong in that regard, and combined with Bonner stonewalling Ibaka, the Thunder were sunk. Also, as I noted back then, the Thunder made a concerted effort to get the others involved in Game Five, and it failed miserably. In Game Six, Brooks abandoned the others, which is why OKC was leading for so much of the game.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

It doesn't matter how Westbrook scored.

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It really matters, 34 points but only 8-23 34% 7 turnovers.

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Originally Posted by wildchild

It really matters, 34 points but only 8-23 34% 7 turnovers.

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Against Leonard, Westbrook scored 14 points off 3/6 shooting and two turnovers. You're gonna either have to accept stats or reject them. No matter how you manipulate them, they don't make Kawhi out to have been a difference-maker on Russ in Game Six.

And just to dispell the idea that Leonard was qualitatively superior in Game Five even if he wasn't quantitatively distinguished, I've charted every possession Westbrook attempted to end in Game Five (meaning every time he tried to shoot, was fouled, turned the ball over or passed to an open man in scoring position). They are listed below:

Quarter	Time	Defender	Move	Place	Shooter	Result	Points
1	11:27	Leonard	Shoot	Elbow	Westbrook	M	2
1	10:08	Green	Pass	Circle	Ibaka	X	0
1	9:29	Leonard	Pass	Elbow	Ibaka	X	0
1	6:55	Green	Pass	Paint	Ibaka	X	0
1	5:17	Leonard	Pass	Wing	Ibaka	M	2
1	4:20	Parker	Pass	FT	Durant	M	2
1	3:30	Leonard	Pass	Paint	Jackson	M	3
1	2:42	Leonard	Shoot	Circle	Westbrook	M	2
1	2:13	Leonard	Foul	FT	Westbrook	N/A	N/A
1	1:35	Mills	Foul	Paint	Westbrook	F	2
2	8:06	Leonard	Pass	FT	Butler	X	0
2	7:38	Leonard	Pass	Elbow	Butler	T	0
2	7:15	Leonard	Pass	Elbow	Butler	F	2
2	6:47	Leonard	Pass	Paint	Collison	T	0
2	5:56	Leonard	Foul	Paint	Westbrook	F	1
2	5:25	Leonard	Pass	Elbow	Ibaka	X	0
2	4:30	Leonard	Pass	Paint	Jackson	X	0
2	4:11	Leonard	Shoot	FT	Westbrook	M	2
2	3:35	Leonard	Shoot	Wing	Westbrook	M	3
2	3:04	Ginobili	Pass	Wing	Jackson	X	0
2	2:42	Leonard	Pass	Wing	Ibaka	M	2
2	2:04	Leonard	Shoot	Wing	Westbrook	X	0
2	1:39	Leonard	Pass	Key	Durant	M	2
2	0:49	Leonard	Shoot	Wing	Westbrook	X	0
2	0:30	Leonard	Pass	SC	Perkins	X	0
2	0:04	Green	Shoot	Wing	Westbrook	M	3
3	10:43	Leonard	Shoot	Wing	Westbrook	X	0
3	10:17	Leonard	Pass	Key	Durant	M	2
3	9:36	Green	Pass	Wing	Durant	X	0
3	8:51	Leonard	Foul	Paint	Westbrook	F	2
3	8:04	Leonard	Shoot	FT	Westbrook	M	2
3	6:53	Leonard	Pass	Wing	Durant	X	0
3	4:16	Leonard	Turnover	Paint	Westbrook	T	0
3	3:34	Leonard	Pass	Elbow	Butler	X	0
3	2:33	Duncan	Shoot	Circle	Westbrook	X	0
3	2:31	Parker	Turnover	SC	Westbrook	T	0
3	2:01	Parker	Foul	Wing	Westbrook	F	2
3	1:56	Ginobili	Pass	FT	Durant	X	0
3	1:18	Ginobili	Turnover	FT	Westbrook	T	0
4	8:54	Leonard	Turnover	Wing	Jones	T	0

As the chart shows, Westbrook didn't really attack the paint much at all, regardless of who was on him. Kawhi had some five-star possessions for sure, including a great effort to fight through a really low screen in the second quarter and an awesome strip of Russ in the third. I have little bad to say about his defense; it simply wasn't as superlative as people remember it.

Watching the game again to make this chart, I now have a clearer understanding of what happened in Game Five:

-Westbrook deferred to Jackson in the first quarter. According to the TNT crew, that was very much part of OKC's plan, as they wanted to make Parker work on defense. It started off great as Reggie torched Tony. But as we all know, that ended up being unsustainable.

-Russ had some early success from deep, making a couple of long-twos and a three against Kawhi and a three from San Marcos against Green to end the first half. That encouraged him to take a few more bad shots. As we all know, that's been the Spurs' game plan against Westbrook for a long time now. It worked great.

-Russ only netted seven assists despite making 21 passes to open players in scoring position. His numbers were really hurt by Ibaka missing so many shots against Bonner, Jackson going cold after the first quarter and generally poor games from the role-players. I feel even more strongly now than I did before that Brooks' very much game-planned for Westbrook to start off as a distributor before trying to score. You can see how pissed Russ was getting as Ibaka and Butler kept clanking shots they usually make.

-Brooks actually predicted Pop correctly in that the Spurs gave Westbrook the full Lebron treatment with Leonard checking him and the bigs determined to clog the paint whenever Russ got past Kawhi. The Spurs guards also dug constantly at the drives of both the OKC stars. That left open men quite a few times, and Westbrook was very proficient at finding them. They just kept missing.

-The bigger story in my mind is that Durant was pretty much held down all game, save for a few spurts which padded his stat totals. It's funny that people seem to be so obsessed with Kawhi sort of guarding Westbrook when the MVP was reduced to a by-stander by Leonard's teammates. Green was tasked with guarding KD most of the game and did a really good job at it. Kawhi was also very strong the few possessions he had to face Durant. Really, everyone but Ginobili held their own.

As I said before: Leonard did a solid job on Westbrook, and the effort was very good. But by no means was that the reason why the Spurs won. I wouldn't even put it in the top five.

Stats hardly tell the entire story, anyone with half a brain knows that. Kawhi did a great job on Westbrook and Green did a great job on KD, I don't know why people need to nitpick these things.

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Originally Posted by rasuo214

Stats hardly tell the entire story, anyone with half a brain knows that. Kawhi did a great job on Westbrook and Green did a great job on KD, I don't know why people need to nitpick these things.

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Those aren't stats. They're literally every play OKC ran involving Westbrook beyond a token extent in Game Five. That's the best I can do for people who don't have the game themselves. What's clear is that some people want to believe in a certain narrative and can't be convinced otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

As the chart shows, Westbrook didn't really attack the paint much at all, regardless of who was on him.

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The chart shows Leonard was on him 28 of 40 possesions, only 2 shots over him in the paint.
You still think Leonard's defense had absolutely nothing to do with it, I still disagree.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

That's the best I can do for people who don't have the game themselves.

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Thanks! I appreciate your effort tying to enlighten us!

It must be very hard for you that people -like me and some hundred thousands- still think Leonard was great on Westbrook.

So if you think you're the responsible for establishing the bases for the correct reading of the stats or just has a deniable Leonard great defense delirium...I'll support you. That's what we do here on ST, support each other.