Battle Blog: David vs Hakeem

Battle Blog: David Robinson: Hakeem Olajuwon's Bitch

Brodels: Both were great centers, but Olajuwon was better than Robinson. A consideration of playoff success, offensive skills, longevity, and defensive ability demonstrates that Hakeem was superior.

While Hakeem led his team to back-to-back titles and was Finals MVP twice, Robinson will be remembered for his playoff failures. Robinson played with limited talent, but Olajuwon won without a dominant second scorer in 1994 and with an aging, talent-thin team in 1995.

Hakeem averaged more points, rebounds, steals, and blocks during the regular season, but he cemented his legacy in the playoffs. While Hakeem increased his scoring, rebounding, assists, blocks, and steals in the playoffs, Robinson's numbers in each of those areas except for rebounding fell. Hakeem dominated because he possessed something Robinson never had: a go-to move. When defenses tighten up in the playoffs, players with refined post skills are better able to score than players relying on pure athleticism.

Robinson was a great defender, but Hakeem was equally good. Hakeem averaged more steals and blocks in his career, and his best seasons in those areas surpass Robinson's best statistical seasons. While Hakeem made the defensive first team five times, Robinson only did so four times.

Finally, Hakeem's longevity supports his dominance. He averaged over 20 points and 10 rebounds twelve times in his career, a feat that Robinson only matched eight times. Hakeem was the better player because he won in the playoffs, had a go-to move, remained dominant for many years, and defended the post as well as anyone.

Guru of Nothing: Your thoughts represent all that is wrong with NBA basketball. Despite David Stern's best efforts to convince us otherwise, basketball is a team sport. Always has been, always will be. To proclaim that David Robinson was Hakeem's "bitch" completely ignores this fundamental fact.

You also ignore many other facts:

In his umpteen years in the NBA, Hakeem won his two titles during the only two years Michael Jordan was sentenced to double-secret probation. Coincidence? Was Hakeem someone else's "bitch" all those other years. If you review the past 25 years of NBA playoff basketball, nowhere but the mid-90s will you find a championship team that stumbled so much as "clutch-city." 6th seed .... down repeatedly in playoff series ... LOST 2 IN A ROW AT HOME AGAINST THE SPURS, after winning the first two in SA.

Clutch? I think of Hakeem as the accidental champion.

Seriously, all bluster aside, I think Hakeem's Rockets defeated Robinson's Spurs in the playoffs because the Rockets had the better TEAM, and the better coach. The Rockets redefined the role of the 3-point shot in 1994 playoffs; Bob Hill redefined the role of abject reject.

... And by the way, defensive dominance is not measured by stats and press recognition. Any Spurs fan would know this.

Brodels: When comparing careers, it’s necessary to consider success and ability to dominate. Success is carrying your team to championships, and Hakeem’s got the edge. It’s statistical superiority, and Hakeem’s got the edge. It’s longevity and raising your game in the playoffs, and Hakeem’s got the edge.

Dominance is measured in many ways, but the ability to carry a team to a championship is paramount. Hakeem increased his statistical output in the playoffs and carried his teams to championships. David’s statistics decreased and he never carried his team to a title. Dominance also is measured by a player’s ability to score in the clutch. Hakeem had failsafe post moves; David was limited to using his athleticism to score against athletic defenders.

Titles are titles, and Hakeem won more. The validity of every championship is questioned by someone, but the very best players in league history usually end up winning them.

Guru of Nothing: Hakeem had phenomenal moves near the basket, far better than Robinson; however, using your definitions of success and dominance, he excelled for only two years - the two years Michael Jordan sat out. Coincidence?

I maintain Hakeem and the Rockets dominated the Spurs in the mid-90s because they were the better TEAM. Look beyond the hype - teams win championships. Do not forget, David Robinson played Hakeem straight up in the playoffs, while Hakeem had help (from his TEAMmates) defending Robinson.

Go way back to June of 2005. The Spurs won as a team, not because Tim Duncan dominated another player; likewise for Detroit in 2004.

Reach for the obvious!

Olajuwon and Robinson were rare specimens. It’s disingenuous to argue the merits of one legacy against the other while removing the team element from the discussion – it’s Stephen A. Smith-esque.

In closing, I give to you arithmetic.

2 = 2.

The judges determined that Guru of Nothing won the Blog by the narrowest margin in Battle Blog history.

Hakeem was better hate to say it but it's true.

Hakeem owned David, Thats a hard fact that I have trouble swallowing.

1 on 1?

Robinson.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brutalis

1 on 1?

Robinson.

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Sorry, but no. Hakeem has a bad of jukes that david can't seem to handle.

wow guruofnothing won? that was close

brodels would have won if he said that david only got rings with the help of a number scorer (duncan) etc etc

while dream won with a shitty cast...even though they had clyde horry cassell ellie

Olajuwon was a monster on the defensive end. Dude averaged over four blocks a game in three different seasons. For a 6'10 player, that is incredible to me.

Guru pulled that one out of his ass because there is no way that Hakeem is secondary to Dave, and I LOVE Dave.

Before Duncan came along, I practically worshipped Olajuwon, and knew that Robinson was his mirror image. But when it came down to leading their teams to a title, we all know who wins that argument.

David Robinson is one of the classiest guys who has ever played basketball, and was a phenomenal basketball specimen. But next to Hakeem? Anybody remember the 1995 playoffs?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flipcritic

Before Duncan came along, I practically worshipped Olajuwon, and knew that Robinson was his mirror image. But when it came down to leading their teams to a title, we all know who wins that argument.

David Robinson is one of the classiest guys who has ever played basketball, and was a phenomenal basketball specimen. But next to Hakeem? Anybody remember the 1995 playoffs?

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How can we forget 95, I'm sure David had nightmares of those jukes, pumps, and blocks.

Good job Gon...It does my heart good to see a Spurfan that knows enough about the game to realize it's a team game and it takes more than just running Duncan out there to win a title.

Anyone that ever watched them play against each other...one on one...knows that David Robinson was never in any way shape or form Hakeem's bitch...and Drob was as tough of a match for Hakeem as Hakeem was for Drob. Yeah Hakeem had the moves Drob could not match...and Drob had speed that neither Hakeem...or anyone else could match...

Which is why he was one of the best in NBA history at getting to the FT line..and which is why he was always double teamed in the postseason after his first season in the NBA. To guard the Admiral one on one in his prime was an instant trip to the bench in foul trouble. Teams effectively defended him by having multiple defenders on him and fouling him. He had a go to move...it was called being faster at his position than anyone else in NBA history.

David Robinson wasn't anyones bitch on the basketball court...and in the one on one matchups David got the best of all of them, and they know it.

A one man team cannot win an NBA title...and please don't say any team with Robert Horry and Mario Elie on it was a one man team.

Anybody who actually votes for DRob in this one, please feel free to borrow my username! :lol



I'm a little confused, though. The thread title is David vs Hakeem, but the blog is titled David: Hakeem's Biitch. He most certainly was NOT Hakeem's bitch and Hakeem would be the first to tell you that. But if we're talking just the basic David vs Hakeem, they were pretty much equal defensively and I've always thought the biggest differences between them came down to two distinct advantages:

1. Offensive diversity. David had an outside game plus outstanding quickness that he used both facing and back to the basket. Hakeem had an outside game, quickness to the basket, back to the basket quickness AND power, and go to moves that were only stoppable if he missed. His dreamshakes, footwork, and spins are well documented, but each season he'd come back with extra counter-moves off those shakes and spins so he almost always ended up with a clean release. His offseason work set him apart. Remember, he came into the league as a defensive player with limited offensive game.

2. Inner drive and will. This is an intangible, but Hakeem always seemed to play with a no prisoners effort and mentality. Win or lose, he always seemed to embrace the moment and leave every ounce of effort on the floor. David could play this way as well, but these Herculean efforts seemed to come most often and easily on Olympic teams or All Star teams when he was free to be "the most talented guy" and didn't necessarily have to be "the everything rides on me guy". It always seemed to me that Hakeem was more at ease in that role. Remember when Elie came to the Spurs and started riding/chiding Robinson. It was apparent David didn't like it, but it did bring that something extra out of David. Simply put, Hakeem didn't need Elie, or anyone else, to shift into that gear.

Look, before you flame away, I LOVE DAVID and I'm forever grateful he was here. Without him, the Spurs wouldn't even be here. And I hate having to compare these particular two players because they were so awesome on and off the court. It's almost like splitting hairs. If you were drafting them, it wouldn't suck to pick second,right? But if you were picking first...

Hakeem may or may not have been better than David, but David certainly wasn't his "Bitch". Sorry.

Hakeem was definitely better than Robinson. Not by much though

I, up to the last few months have always thought that hakeem was a better player then drob. But then I realized that the series that both players are compared are the 95 playoff series.

I felt that hakeem "schooled" drob during that series. Now I've come to realize that drob didn't have much of a supporting cast while hakeem had a good supporting cast. And that hakeem had the help of thorpe. David never really had that other post guy besides cummings in his first 2 years and of course td.

I still think hakeem is 1mm of a notch better then drob. Because:

1. Hakeem has the best back to the basket game only rivaled by td as far as footwork and playing by the rules (you hear that shaq).

2. Hakeem knew how to play basketball. In other words he knew how to use his body when he was scoring or maybe he just had more coordination then drob. Drob was all speed on offense, he just almost recklessly went to the hoop and always seemed uncoordinated to me.

On a side note, I wonder how the media would view drob if he had clyde on his team during drob's prime in a major market team ala LA.

Out of the 48 times Hakeem and David met during their careers, David won his matchup 36 times or a 3:1 margin. I don't still have the link but it was in an ESPN article about comparing great centers head-to-head sometime last year. To me, that is far more statistically significant that a 6 game playoff series where David was double-teamed and Hakeem was not.

Those of you who feel Hakeem was the better player should explain how Dave bested Hakeem those 36 other times.

I'm listening.

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Originally Posted by TwoHandJam

Out of the 48 times Hakeem and David met during their careers, David won his matchup 36 times or a 3:1 margin. I don't still have the link but it was in an ESPN article about comparing great centers head-to-head sometime last year. To me, that is far more statistically significant that a 6 game playoff series where David was double-teamed and Hakeem was not.

Those of you feel Hakeem was the better player should explain how Dave bested Hakeem those 36 other times.

I'm listening.

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Nice post, unfortunately I didn't have the chance to watch as many games as I do now (living in iowa). I'm sure that if I got to watch at least a game or 2 per season of hou v sa I would have come to the same conclusion, or at least had more evidence to support my claim either way. You could also look at the shaq v drob, drob in his prime always schooled shaq.

I want a Rudy T. vs. Bob Hill blog.

It seems to me that GoN won not because he proved David was better, but because he proved David wasn't Hakeem's bitch. The title of the battle started by Brodels states as his position: "David Robinson: Hakeem Olajuwon's Bitch". If that statement is proved false in the eyes of the judges, he loses. Hakeem can be considered the better player and Brodels could lose this battle because he didn't prove that Hakeem was VASTLY superior to Dave, which is what his title implies.

I personally think Hakeem was a better playoff performer because of his moves around the basket; and usually I wind up ranking Big Dave either right behind Hakeem or at most with one center in between them.

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Originally Posted by TwoHandJam

Out of the 48 times Hakeem and David met during their careers, David won his matchup 36 times or a 3:1 margin. I don't still have the link but it was in an ESPN article about comparing great centers head-to-head sometime last year. To me, that is far more statistically significant that a 6 game playoff series where David was double-teamed and Hakeem was not.

Those of you who feel Hakeem was the better player should explain how Dave bested Hakeem those 36 other times.

I'm listening.

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Indeed.

Look...when Hakeem was going off no one man could stop him....it's the truth. And for that 2 year period he went off a lot. But for the rest of his career he really didn't do a good job of carrying his team...anywhere.

What cannot be denied is that for that two years period...You could not double Hakeem...if you did...his supporting cast would bomb you into submission.

But people don't understand just how important it was that Hakeem didn't have to defend David by himself in that series...IF he had he would have not have scored as much because he would have been in foul trouble....he would have been on the court less....


Career FTA Leaders

Player FTA Seasons
1 Karl Malone 13188 19
2 Wilt Chamberlain 11862 14
3 Moses Malone 11090 19
4 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 9304 20
5 Shaquille O'neal 9274 13
6 Oscar Robertson 9185 14
7 Jerry West 8801 14
8 Michael Jordan 8772 15
9 Charles Barkley 8643 16
10 Adrian Dantley 8351 15
11 David Robinson 8201 14
16 Hakeem Olajuwon 7621 18


And David would have a scored a lot more....

Why do you guys think outside shooters, that can hit in the playoffs, are always priority on this team with Tim Duncan? Just go look at what happens to Duncan when we don't have them.

Take a look at how effective David was...at how hard he was to guard....

David being ranked where he is on this list after 14 years is very impressive...keep in mind..he missed virtually a full season of his career and was an offensive sidekick/garbageman for the last 5 years of his career..

So basically David put himself at the top of the list in an 8 year period...

Yes Shaq and Wilt are also on that list in a similar period of time and ranked higher...keep in mind that they were two of the worst FT shooters in NBA history, fouling them was actual strategy in playing them...fouling David Robinson wasn't...teams weren't trying to put David on the line as part of a strategy....and they also were the main guys for virutally all of their careers...

Now take a look at that list again...

Career FTA Leaders

Player FTA Seasons
1 Karl Malone 13188 19
2 Wilt Chamberlain 11862 14
3 Moses Malone 11090 19
4 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 9304 20
5 Shaquille O'neal 9274 13
6 Oscar Robertson 9185 14
7 Jerry West 8801 14
8 Michael Jordan 8772 15
9 Charles Barkley 8643 16
10 Adrian Dantley 8351 15
11 David Robinson 8201 14
16 Hakeem Olajuwon 7621 18

And tell me who was harder to guard one on one?






And for everyone that thinks David was some kind of choker soft guy in the playoffs...

How come his playoff numbers were so awesome his first 2 years in the NBA?

When he had the best supporting casts of his career.


Everyone that thinks David Robinson was unmotivated or didn't care about helping his team win...

The man won a scoring title and a Defensive Poy of the year award, no one else but Jordan has done that......You can't do that if you aren't working hard....

Year in and year out his teams were upper echelon playoff contenders as long as he was healthy...

Hakeem can't say that...


David Robinson was no one's bitch....and in fact...he had few peers in NBA history as a player capable of carrying a weak team.

Did anybody hear Charlie Rosen on Charlie & Chance this morning? They talked to him about DRob and GG being on his overrated list.

did they nail him for it or were they nice?

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Originally Posted by samikeyp

did they nail him for it or were they nice?

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Parker had gone off on him yesterday as the article was brought up, so I guess that's why they had Rosen on today. Rosen sounded very pompous. Parker and Chance were civil, but definitely annoyed.

He's a dick. He isn't even a hasbeen...he is a never was.

the one thing that cannot be disputed is that David went out on top
while the dream over stayed his welcome in the league

David's last image in the league was raising the championship trophy for the only team he ever played for
while dream's last image in the league was hobbling around for the raptors

Out of curiosity, does anyone have the box scores of the 1995 WCF?

It's funny, on Rocket sites it is said that Hakeem was doubled moreso than Drob, here it is said that Drob was doubled and Hakeem was purely covered by one man. Which is it? Is the truth, that BOTH players got doubled, just Hakeem's role players hit the open shots at a higher rate?

FWDT posted the stats a long time ago....

Drob averaged IIRC about 16 FT's per game...

Hakeem averaged about 6....


Now that's 8 fouls on Drob per game...just of the shooting kind....

Unless they were giving Hakeem 8 fouls per game there is no way for him to have been the primary defender on Drob....

In fact I think I remember Hakeem averaged about 3 PF per game in that series.


On top of that...the Rockets had the most prolific 3 point shooting team in NBA history...if Hakeem was being doubled then the Rockets were stupid. Those Rockets weren't stupid.

It was more like a synthises of the 2....

The Rockets doubled Drob for the majority of the game and then would flip Hakeem on to DRob at the end...the Spurs did it the opposite..Drob had some huge 4th quarters in that series....and Hakeem had some no shows. And the two games in Houston were Drob VS Hakeem one on one more than any other games of the series...

But no...Rodman was a non factor defensively in that series...


David was doubled a lot more than any of these guys were....it was the best way to stop him...if you had a mass of flesh on him there was less likely to be a foul call....and what was he going to do about it?

Kick it out to AJ for 3?

Even Vinny wasn't a prolific 3 shooter and Vinny had that same problem of hitting open threes that a lot Duncan's teamates have had...Vinny would usually do a good job of hitting the ones with a guy in his face.

By the way...

In David's first 2 years in the NBA, with Rod Strickland and Willie Anderson as his guards...he did this in the playoffs:

PPG: 24.4
FG%: 56.8%

That is among the best ever for a player in his first 2 years in the playoffs...compare it to Duncan.

In the early Vinny and AJ era of 92-93 and 93-94 he did this:
PPG: 22.21
FG%: 44.8%

One of those years he had AJ and no Vinny...the other year he had Vinny and no AJ(this year was awful in the post season)...But she Spurs still kept winning @ 50+ games per year in the regular season.

In the AJ Vinny era of 94-95 and 95-96 he did this:
PPG: 24.64
FG%: 47.1%

The guards matter....

David didn't all of sudden become a soft player, a guy who didn't care about winning, a choker...after ripping ass his first 2 years in the NBA...His teamates changed...his coaches changes. And his college career proves this as well.

Everyone thinks the Spurs teams didn't win because of David Robinson...

Just take a look at what happened when Robinson wasn't healthy...the Spurs lost like a mothrfucker...none of this 18 game winning streak stuff like the Rockets pulled off without Hakeem...none of this 15-8 stuff like the Spurs have pulled off without Duncan...We are talking big time losing records.

David masked the weaknesses for his team and altered his game to fill them...like no other player in NBA history...

This is why a C who "can't score"...all of sudden becomes the first C in 20 years to win a scoring title. Something Hakeem never did.

This is why a soft player...leads the league in blocks and rebounds...something Shaq has never done.

This is why without a point guard...a C who "can't pass" like David Robinson..drop 4.8 assists per game...becoming only the 6th or 7th C in history to pull that off...and one of the few to ever lead his team in assists.

No...David Robinson was not the reason his teams did not win...he was the only thing that made them a good team...


He was John Elway...he carried shit teams much further than they had any business going...and giving their fans much more expectation than they should have had...

David was good enough to get his teams in over their heads...

That's why you look at Hakeem...Kareem....Shaq....Wilt...they all had years they failed to get their teams to the playoffs...Kareem and Hakeem had last place teams...

A Drob never finished lower than second in the division...no matter who the teamates were.

David Robinson never did. And he didn't have Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant, Clyde Drexler, Scottie Pippen, Oscrar Robertson...like those guys did either.

Learn the game and stop the hate....

Mr.Robinson is the MOST Under-rated player in NBA history...all because of 1 playoff series he lost 2-4 against the defending champions...

And one other thing....

This year against the Suns...

Amare Stoudamire averaged 37 PPG...

Use the same logic people use against David.

David was taller, longer, and much much more athletic than Hakeem. He just didn't have the moves.

He also didn't have the team...

Hakeem was better for me sory........ But not so much better than David

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Originally Posted by inagra

while dream won with a shitty cast...even though they had clyde horry cassell ellie

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What?

The arguement of a player having a bad supporting cast is weak IMO. You don't get to win a ring not having a great supporting cast. MJ tried doing it on his own in his early days in the nba, but was then dubbed as one who couldn't carry his team to a championship. In comes pipen and co.

As much as I love Drob, the answer to this question is the Dream

I remember after the 95 wcf I came to the conclusion that David would never win anything alone, all those years from 91-94 carrying the crappy teams on his back took its toll.

But overall I would take Hakeem over David, and I like David a lot. I am just being realistic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TwoHandJam

Out of the 48 times Hakeem and David met during their careers, David won his matchup 36 times or a 3:1 margin. I don't still have the link but it was in an ESPN article about comparing great centers head-to-head sometime last year. To me, that is far more statistically significant that a 6 game playoff series where David was double-teamed and Hakeem was not.

Those of you who feel Hakeem was the better player should explain how Dave bested Hakeem those 36 other times.

I'm listening.

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After getting Duncan, the Spurs beat Houston something like 14 out of 16. Both Hakeem and DRob were way past their prime post 98, but the Spurs had Duncan and Houston didnt. These games are included in the regular season games you reference, so its completely misleading and highly irrelevant. Also, the ESPN article showed that Hakeem won the individual matchups with Robinson because of better stats, but the Spurs team beat the Rockets teams more often.

But in 95, both players were in their primes playing for an NBA Championship, so that series absolutely deserves significant consideration in evaluating the players. Playoffs are infiniitely more important than the regular season and Hakeem abused Robinson at Robinson's absolute peak, his MVP season. 95 is a helluva lot more relevant than games in 98, 99, 00, and 01 when Hakeem was a shade of his former self and Duncan was tearing up the NBA and DRob was coattail riding.

The Jazz were 3-1 against the Bulls in the 97-98 Regular seasons but lost in the Finals to them both seasons. You tell me which games were more statistically significant. The Rockets were 1-7 in the 95 regular season against Orlando and San Antonio. Does that mean Hakeem was the third best Center out of Hakeem, Shaq, and DRob despite the fact that he torched both Rob and Shaq in the playoffs en route to back to back titles, when the games actually mattered? Is Peyton Manning a better QB than Tom Brady because he has better regular season #'s? His playoff failures mean nothing, relative to that all important regular season, where titles are not won?

The double team argument is just trash because Hakeem averaged 5.5 assists in that series WCF, double his career average. The reasons Cassell and Elie and Horry were wide open for back breaking shots was that Hakeem was spinnning Rob out of his jock strap every play, shooting 56%, and dropping nearly 40 a night. Had Dave even controlled Hakeem to a degree, Spurs sweep that series. You don't average that many assists if you aren't double teamed.

Anyway, I do agree that you can't base everything of one playoff series, even if it is the WCF with 2 players who are both at their primes at the same time.

The reasons that Hakeem is universally (outside of course of SA) regarded as a superior player than David Robinson are several:

1) Hakeem led his teams to 2 titles as the #1 option on a team. His 94 team and Duncan's 03 teams are probably the 2 weakest supporting casts in league history among title teams, which tells you how great hakeem and duncan were in those years. DRob would never have even BEEN to the nba finals if not for duncan. He won 2 titles, but in the Scottie Pippen role. He was a minimal part of the 03 team's success. Duncan won without DRob but not vice versa.

2) Both players were in the same tier defensively, but Hakeem had a much more diverse offensive repertoire and was much more clutch: Hakeem had as many post moves as any big man, David did not and this really hurt him and SA in the playoffs.

3) Hakeem was an elite playoff performer. David was not. While both are very close in regular season stats, the playoff disparity is overwhelming:

PPG FG% REB ASSISTS BLK STL
Hakeem 25.9 53 11.2 3.2 3.3 1.7
DRob 18.1 48 10.6 2.3 2.5 1.2

Hakeem beats DRob in literally every statistic. The lack of go-to move vs. hakeem's unstoppable pet moves is the difference for the huge disparity in FG%. These stats show players who are in 2 different tiers. Hakeem is in the tier with Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Russell while DRob belongs in the tier with Ewing, Mikan, Reed, etc.

4) 95 demolition with DRob at his peak and hakeem at his peak. Not even the staunchest Spurs homer will argue that dave ever reached a level hakeem did in the 94-95 playoffs. Hakeem in those yrs played at a level that was up there with MJ at his peak and Shaq at his peak from 00-02. Rob never sniffed that level of play.

Saying Rob>Hakeem would be like a homer Wolves fan saying KG>TD

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Originally Posted by duncan_21

I, up to the last few months have always thought that hakeem was a better player then drob. But then I realized that the series that both players are compared are the 95 playoff series.

I felt that hakeem "schooled" drob during that series. Now I've come to realize that drob didn't have much of a supporting cast while hakeem had a good supporting cast. And that hakeem had the help of thorpe. David never really had that other post guy besides cummings in his first 2 years and of course td.

I still think hakeem is 1mm of a notch better then drob. Because:

1. Hakeem has the best back to the basket game only rivaled by td as far as footwork and playing by the rules (you hear that shaq).

2. Hakeem knew how to play basketball. In other words he knew how to use his body when he was scoring or maybe he just had more coordination then drob. Drob was all speed on offense, he just almost recklessly went to the hoop and always seemed uncoordinated to me.

On a side note, I wonder how the media would view drob if he had clyde on his team during drob's prime in a major market team ala LA.

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Couple of things:

-Clyde was a few years removed from his prime by the time he got to Houston. Hakeem and him never played in their primes together, although they would have had Houston taken MJ instead of hakeem.

-Otis Thorpe wasn't on the 95 team for Houston. This is why hakeem assumed legendary status that year. On a team which started CHucky Brown, a CBA talent, at PF facing Barkley, Malone, Rodman, and then Horace Grant in the playoffs, Hakeem's dominance allowed Houston to overcome huge talent disadvantages at the PF position. hakeem's front court mates in 95 were chucky brown and charles jones, a 38 year old. Rob's was a HOF PF Dennis Rodman.

Rob had Sean Elliott and Dennis Rodman, 2 all stars, one HOFer. if the spurs cast was that bad, no way do they win 62 games in the reg season. Rob fell short in the playoffs, got torched by hakeem, and shot poorly vs. houston from field. The domination at that position was easily the #1 reason for the series loss.

The spurs have celebrated 3 titles since the Dream put this to rest. Whott its time to accept and move on...

Many of the arguements you use for Drob are similiar excuses Twolves fans use

Do you think KG is better then TD also?

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Originally Posted by ceds

The spurs have celebrated 3 titles since the Dream put this to rest. Whott its time to accept and move on...

Many of the arguements you use for Drob are similiar excuses Twolves fans use

Do you think KG is better then TD also?

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Well since KG pulled a Hakeem this season, and laid a big stinky turd in the regular season FAILING...that's right FAILING, to make the playoffs...

Just like the guy ya'll are giving credit for single handedly winning a title....

No I don't.


Get smarter....And stop hitting women on the on the head with clubs...



Hakeem was doing good to get the Rockets over 500%...most years of his career...and now ya'll want to act like he was a one man championship team....he wasn't.

No excuses..you had the best team in 94. Dream had to depend heavily on two rookies and no 2nd all star. Spurs had an all star, best record , home court, legendary role player (Rodman) and the mighty MVP.

MJ had retired and it was time for one of robinson, malone, dream , ewing and barkley to stake claim as the leagues best player. Hakeems dominance in 94 / 95 puts him above anything robinson has done

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Hakeems dominance in 94 / 95 puts him above anything robinson has done

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I disagree with that. Hakeem has better career numbers and they both have two titles. Hakeem was awesome in that post-season but one post-season does not a career make. Hakeem may have had a better career but in no way does one season outweigh an entire career. I do agree though that the Spurs were better and should have taken that series and the title that year...they pissed that away. Besides...its all irrelevant. They were both outstanding players on the court and more importantly outstanding men on the court. They are both Hall of Famers. In the end, history looks at titles and the HOF....in those categories, the two are equal.

Tell me a better way to judge two superstars then to have them match up for a 7 game series in the primes of their careers?.

Once again, David was the MVP and had the more talented team. Hakeem put on one of the greatest playoff performances in history and showed the world he was the better player. Almost every basketball expert in the country ranks dream over robinson and that series has alot to do with it.

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Originally Posted by ceds

No excuses..you had the best team in 94.

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Um...The Rockets were the defending champions.

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Dream had to depend heavily on two rookies and no 2nd all star. Spurs had two all stars, best record , home court, legendary role player (Rodman) and the mighty MVP.

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Oh please...you guys had fucking Drexler...stop acting he was Matheusela....he was fucking 32 years old, the same age as Rodman...and if you don't think he in the class of a second All Star you don't know what hell you are talking...he was most definitely a dominant second scorer..something Drob didn't have.


And fucking Casell came off the bench and dropped 30 on us...

When did David's starting PG ever drop 30 someone....let alone his backup PG.

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MJ had retired and it was time for one of robinson, malone, dream , ewing and barkley to stake claim as the leagues best player. Hakeems dominance in 94 / 95 puts him above anything robinson has done

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Try as I might, I can't find Hakeem Olajuwon ever listed as the NBA champion...there's a reason for that...


Until you figure it out...I suggest you try tennis...I think it's more your kind of sport.

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Once again, David was the MVP and had the more talented team. Hakeem put on one of the greatest playoff performances in history and showed the world he was the better player

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Once again...I agreed with all that.

I still say Hakeem was a better player, but I also still say that he was not as dominant throughout his career over David as a lot of people say. People tend to use just that series as a bench mark for the two players entire careers and I don't agree with that.

If Hakeem was so great, why did the Rockets fail to reach the playoffs in his prime (92?)

If Hakeem was so great, why did his Rockets fail to win 50 games 11 times in Hakeems Houston Career?

If Hakeem was so great, why did his Rockets only win the Midwest Division twice?

Robinson guarded Hakeem straight up in the WCF, but Hakeem didnt guard Robinson, he guarded Rodman until Rodman got suspended. Hakeem got to rest on defense while Robinson worked hard both ends, because he had a heavier load to carry than Hakeem.

Clyde > Elliott (Clyde was still getting 22/7/5)
Elie > Vinny Del Negro
Sam I Am/Kenny Smith > Avery (Avery was a better leader, but Houston ran inside-out and they just needed PGs to hit open shots.)
Robert Horry > Chuck Person
Rodman < Chilcutt/Brown (but Rodman was suspended for the last two games and Houston won both)

entire career stats for both:

Hakeem: 21.8ppg 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 1.75spg, 3.09bpg

David: 21.1, 10.6, 2.5, 1.4, 3.0

I don't see the dominance over the length of the two careers. Hakeem was better, not dominantly but better.

Now would that have changed if Dave had not agreed to reduce his offensive role when TD came along? Who knows...but then again...the Spurs may not have had two titles when Dave retired.

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Um...The Rockets were the defending champions.

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We were written off by everyone going into the playoffs and were a low seed. Spurs were favoured by many going in the series

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When did David's starting PG ever drop 30 someone....let alone his backup PG.

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BS excuses.. how about david increasing his output in playoff games for a change

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Oh please...you guys had fucking Drexler...stop acting he was Matheusela....he was fucking 32 years old, the same age as Rodman

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At best a 32yr old clyde cancels out Elliot..either way the team were matched evenly enough to the point where one of the superstars had to raise the bar.

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Robinson guarded Hakeem straight up in the WCF, but Hakeem didnt guard Robinson

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Dreams presense led to many open 3 point shots..yeah he was played straight up but not as much as people on this board make out

Ill apply the homer logic you use for Robinson against TD

KG has had better stats then TD for about 3 seasons now. He has made it as far in the playoffs as Robinson ever did as team superstar and regularly leads his team to 50 wins seasons. Injury, poor management and no draft are to blame for this man not to have won a ring yet or have a better playoff record.

So he's the better player then TD right?? :rolleyes

KG is just like Robinson..great players but a notch below their rival.
Playoffs are where the legends are made

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Ill apply the homer logic you use for Robinson against TD

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Homer logic? I was agreeing with you.

Nice.

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Originally Posted by ceds

Ill apply the homer logic you use for Robinson against TD

KG has had better stats then TD for about 3 seasons now. He has made it as far in the playoffs as Robinson ever did as team superstar and regularly leads his team to 50 wins seasons. Injury, poor management and no draft are to blame for this man not to have won a ring yet or have a better playoff record.

So he's the better player then TD right?? :rolleyes

KG is just like Robinson..great players but a notch below their rival.
Playoffs are where the legends are made

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Bad comparison...#1. TD has had a better supporting cast than KG...a better organization backing him...and a better coach.

I mean did Duncan's organization fuck up thier draft for a decade?


But Robinson's ability to carry a team was far superior to KG's and Hakeem's...

Hakeem failed to make it out of the first round more times than Robinson...he failef to make the playoffs more times than Robinson. Robinson has a winning record against him.

For all but 3 years of the 13 years they played together Robinson's teams outperformed Hakeem's.

For 5 of the 7 years they were in their primes together Robinsons teams out performed Hakeem's....


and Hakeem's list of teamates is far more illustrious than Robinsons.......And Robinson has a winning record against Hakeem.

You choose to judge them by one playoff series...one playoff series does not a career make.

Judge Hakeem by one playoff series...Parish>Hakeem?

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Originally Posted by samikeyp

entire career stats for both:

Hakeem: 21.8ppg 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 1.75spg, 3.09bpg

David: 21.1, 10.6, 2.5, 1.4, 3.0

I don't see the dominance over the length of the two careers. Hakeem was better, not dominantly but better.

Now would that have changed if Dave had not agreed to reduce his offensive role when TD came along? Who knows...but then again...the Spurs may not have had two titles when Dave retired.

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Look at the playoff stats and they are not even close. DRob is a distant 2nd in playoff stats. You can see thim in this very thread and that's really what separates the 2 guys.

Also, it's been shown that Clyde may have been "only" 32 when he was in Houston, but as the #'s show he was not even close to the player he was in his prime. His FG% and PPG had plummeted by the time he came to Houston. He rode hakeem's coattails the same way pippen did with mj.

I get that and I have posted them before. My point is that one playoff series, which ceds alludes to, should not be the sole basis for an entire career. My point still stands...IMO Hakeem was better but dominant over Dave for the length of his career.

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Originally Posted by 2pac

If Hakeem was so great, why did the Rockets fail to reach the playoffs in his prime (92?)

If Hakeem was so great, why did his Rockets fail to win 50 games 11 times in Hakeems Houston Career?

If Hakeem was so great, why did his Rockets only win the Midwest Division twice?

Robinson guarded Hakeem straight up in the WCF, but Hakeem didnt guard Robinson, he guarded Rodman until Rodman got suspended. Hakeem got to rest on defense while Robinson worked hard both ends, because he had a heavier load to carry than Hakeem.

Clyde > Elliott (Clyde was still getting 22/7/5)
Elie > Vinny Del Negro
Sam I Am/Kenny Smith > Avery (Avery was a better leader, but Houston ran inside-out and they just needed PGs to hit open shots.)
Robert Horry > Chuck Person
Rodman < Chilcutt/Brown (but Rodman was suspended for the last two games and Houston won both)

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This is the homer post of all time.

Dennis Rodman was not as good as Chilcutt/Chucky Brown. That's asinine.
Avery dominated Kenny Smith in the WCF. Avery's the reason it wasn't a sweep.

And Hakeem did not guard Rodman that series. That's a blatantly false statement. He guarded DRob. DRob's game offensively was really one fold: beat his man off the dribble. Against most C's, that was good enough, not against a guy who was just as quick and athletic as he was. Rodman played in both games 5 and game 6, so now we are so desperate we are just lying or we didnt watch that series but just want to grasp at straws to avoid admitting Rob was torched by hakeem that series.

And you don't average 5.5 assists in a series as a Center without getting double teamed. It's amazing the crap some come up with to avoid facing the obvious reality that Robinson was dominated that series.

Hakeem took his teams to 3 NBA Finals. He beat Shaq, DRob, and Ewing in the playoffs largely because he dominated those guys individually. He helped get past Kareem and Showtime in 86. THese are things DRob did not do.

If not for Duncan, David Robinson would never even have MADE the NBA FInals. He had his chances and came up short.

Rob's individual game went down notches in the playoffs and hakeem's went the other direction. The stats prove that, the titles do, and so diid human eyes if not covered by silver and black shades.

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Originally Posted by samikeyp

I get that and I have posted them before. My point is that one playoff series, which ceds alludes to, should not be the sole basis for an entire career. My point still stands...IMO Hakeem was better but dominant over Dave for the length of his career.

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Those playoff stats you see are not from one series brother. Those are hakeem's and david's playoff #'s over their ENTIRE CAREERS. The playoff #'s from just 95 are a lot further apart than the career playoff #'s.

If DRob was a better playoff performer than hakeem over the course of his career, then your argument would have some merit. But that 95 series was a microcosm of hakeem and drob's playoff games. One's elevated in postseason, one's declined, which created an indinstinguishable performance gap between the 2.

Hakeem was quite a bit better than Robinson. Enough so that both players are clearly in different tiers when evaluated by nba experts (neutral ones).

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Originally Posted by bobbyjoe

And Hakeem did not guard Rodman that series. That's a blatantly false statement.

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No it's not.

Drob averaged more shooting fouls per game than Hakeem had to give....

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DRob's game offensively was really one fold: beat his man off the dribble. Against most C's, that was good enough,

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This is very true. He had a good J too though.

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not against a guy who was just as quick and athletic as he was.

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Hakeem was not as quick as Drob...not even close. He was about as quick Duncan...and Duncan wasn't as fast as Drob even in Drob's last season.

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And you don't average 5.5 assists in a series as a Center without getting double teamed.

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You also don't average 5.5 assists per game without your teamsates hitting their shots and therefore punishing the other team when it was trying to double you.

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Hakeem took his teams to 3 NBA Finals. He beat Shaq, DRob, and Ewing in the playoffs largely because he dominated those guys individually. He helped get past Kareem and Showtime in 86. THese are things DRob did not do.

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Drob, Shaq and Ewings teams also never lead the NBA in 3PA made...thereby punishing the shit out of anyone that thought of doubling them.

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If not for Duncan, David Robinson would never even have MADE the NBA FInals. He had his chances and came up short.

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If not for Robert Horry Hakeem wouldn't have beaten us in game 1....

If not for Robert Horry Shaq wouldn't have 3 titles...

If not for Robert Horry we wouldn't be the defending champions right now.

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Rob's individual game went down notches in the playoffs and hakeem's went the other direction. The stats prove that, the titles do, and so diid human eyes if not covered by silver and black shades.

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The only thing on anyone eyes is Hakeem's nutsac on yours....

Hakeem didn't do shit until Rudy T got there and surrounded him with shooters that could hit under pressure...

That was the catalyst....AFTER they became the most prolific 3 shooting team in NBA history...they won titles.

And I don't give a fuck how good Hakeem was...if you put Avery fucking Johnson on his team...AJ was not going to get any better at hitting threes.

Hakeem never changed that much in his career...true he finally stopped being lazy and cancerous for that 2 year period...but basically he was the same player he always was....in fact I'd say he was more dominant in other seasons...


And you kick your own ass every time you bring up the Celtics Finals...

Hakeem got kicked out of the game that put them in the finals...Ralph fucking Sampson was the reason they won that game....he hit the winning shot.

I know from when they were posted....never once was a speaking about career playoff numbers.....I was specifically referring to Ceds implication that the one series in 95 was the end all, be all of Hakeem's career. Hakeem was quite a bit better than David in your opinion but that doesn't make it anymore so than mine does but there are many NBA experts (neutral ones) who also feel that it was pretty close and even some who think David was better. I admit that I am not neutral but I also have the mental ability to be objective when it comes to Spurs players. A quality you seem to think no Spurs fans possess and you base that solely on the fact that "they don't agree with me, therefore they must be homers" I could say the same about you. You are a Laker fan, you could be just as biased against DRob and the Spurs as some here are biased for them. I don't know that for sure because I don't know you. Because I don't know you, it would be ignorant to assume that you are biased so I am not going to make that claim. You have made several posts that could be construed as anti-Spur, anti-Spur fan and anti-Robinson. The only respectable thing to do is to give you the benefit of the doubt, which I am.

These comparisons between AJ and Kenny Smith are whack too....

Kenny Smith was the #6 pick in the entire draft...he had a great college career a Carolina...he was a stud in international competition..

He is the only guy I know of that was ever in the dunk and 3 point contest in the same all star break...when Hakeem went down with cracked skull...Kenny and Mr.Mean lead the Rockets on the longest winning streak in team history, they finished with the best record in team history...and on top of all that...he was clutch...always clutch....

When Drob got injured the Spurs lost 10 out of 15(still finished with a better record than the AJ Rockets though).

From the time he hit a game winning shot over Sabonis to capture Team USA's first Gold Medal in the World Championships in 30 something years...to the time he was doing for Hakeem...he was a threatening presence...especially when he was playing with a dominant big like Hakeem.


AJ...was undrafred...he was cut by 4 different teams...including the fucking Rockets...and the only team he ever started for was the Spurs...because he wasn't good enough to do it anywhere else.

Yes he was feisty...but he was severely limited in his offensive abilities, even with a dominant bigman, all he could do was pass...that was his only skill....that's why he got cut...by both the Spurs and the Rockets, and the Sonics, and the Warriors.

And Smith and AJ are the same age....

What you see when you look back on the careers of Duncan...Robinson...Shaq...Hakeem...

You see Sean Elliott hitting a game winning shot with Duncan(because Elie would have kicked his ass if he'd missed)...you see him missing two game winning FT's with David.

You see Robert Horry hitting pivotal game winners for all these guys...

Do you see that with Robinson?

You see Derek Fisher and .04....

You see Jaren Jacksnon just going off on the fucking Lakers...

You don't see that with Robinson...you don't see memorable moments by his teamates...and don't tell me the chances weren't there...we lost a lot of 1 and 2 point game in the Drob era...

David never had a teamate step up, never....the others all did. It was all entirely on David.

The pressure was all on David....and he did it so well in the regular season it masked how weak some of those teams were...

His starting backcourt for the glory years was a pair of oft waived journeymen.

When the playoffs started and the double teams began....and the level of competition increased...and teams got real familiar with each other real quick...and could concentrate on attacking the strenghts of the other teams...David teams were exposed for the weak teams they were...just like they got exposed any time he was injured.

That's the reality. Deal with it. There's a reason Hakeem took so long to get back to the finals after Samson declined....it was his team.

Robinson and Kobe... Imagine.

You are seriously on crack if you think Hakeem was only as quick as Duncan?

How the hell did he crush DRob in steals every year and have more blocks if he wasn't as quick? He was quicker than Robinson, Robinson was faster. Look at Hakeem and Robinson's steal #'s, not even close.

Hakeem's athleticism by big man standards is 2nd to no one's, DRob included. To compare his quicks to Duncan is just stupid.

Saying Hakeem was about as quick as Duncan is like saying Duncan and Shaq are the same strength wise.

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Originally Posted by samikeyp

I know from when they were posted....never once was a speaking about career playoff numbers.....I was specifically referring to Ceds implication that the one series in 95 was the end all, be all of Hakeem's career. Hakeem was quite a bit better than David in your opinion but that doesn't make it anymore so than mine does but there are many NBA experts (neutral ones) who also feel that it was pretty close and even some who think David was better. I admit that I am not neutral but I also have the mental ability to be objective when it comes to Spurs players. A quality you seem to think no Spurs fans possess and you base that solely on the fact that "they don't agree with me, therefore they must be homers" I could say the same about you. You are a Laker fan, you could be just as biased against DRob and the Spurs as some here are biased for them. I don't know that for sure because I don't know you. Because I don't know you, it would be ignorant to assume that you are biased so I am not going to make that claim. You have made several posts that could be construed as anti-Spur, anti-Spur fan and anti-Robinson. The only respectable thing to do is to give you the benefit of the doubt, which I am.

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Never seen a list outside of SA fans ranking DRob over Hakeem, ever. That's seriously delusional.

Even if you completely throw out 95 like it never happened, Hakeem's career playoff stats are clearly and significantly better than Robinson's. Can you seriously disagree?

I am not biased against Robinson. He has his place in history, but it's clearly and definitely behind guys like hakeem, duncan, and o'neal.

Would a Bulls fan be biased if he thought MJ was better than Kobe? No, because that's a view most hold.

The vast majority of NBA fans, yourself included, view hakeem as a better player than robinson.

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Never seen a list outside of SA fans ranking DRob over Hakeem, ever. That's seriously delusional.

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So because you have never seen, it doesn't exist and I am delusional....and its delusional because you say so?

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Would a Bulls fan be biased if he thought MJ was better than Kobe? No, because that's a view most hold.

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So because most hold a view...means its absolute truth? Actually you proved my point...a fan of any team can be biased and can still be right.

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Even if you completely throw out 95 like it never happened, Hakeem's career playoff stats are clearly and significantly better than Robinson's. Can you seriously disagree?

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Never said otherwise...now you are lying.

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The vast majority of NBA fans, yourself included, view hakeem as a better player than robinson.

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Speculation and opinion....not fact...except the part about how I feel.

So is it speculation and opinion to say most nba fans don't put robinson in the tier of MJ, Wilt, and O'Neal?

Or is it simply obvious?

Didnt that last list of all-time nba centers not even have drob in the top 10 and diss his game? (not that I agree he's not top 10).

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Didnt that last list of all-time nba centers not even have drob in the top 10 and diss his game? (not that I agree he's not top 10

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It did...and that was the opinion of the author of the list, just like its your opinion that he is top 10.

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So is it speculation and opinion to say most nba fans don't put robinson in the tier of MJ, Wilt, and O'Neal?

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its speculation and opinion. for it to be fact, you would have to establish the exact number of NBA fans, figure out how many of those would comprise a majority and poll all of those fans. Just because it seems obvious to you or I, does not mean someone else may feel different. Everyone is entitled to think how they would like and no one has the right to discount them for it.

I'd just like to say welcome to bobbyjoe. It took you all of 35 posts to join the pantheon of highly intelligent an reasonable Laker fans that visit this board. It's nice to have you. We get so many idiot Laker fans during the season, that guys like you and the legendary adidas11 really stand out. Good posts, excellent reasoning.

And don't pay too much attention to the homers. Unless you grew up in San Antonio, you'll never understand the pedestal David is place upon. It gets ridiculous sometimes (as in the "David was a better basketball player than Hakeem" arguement). Most Spurs fans don't have the ability to separate David Robinson the Once-In-A-Lifetime, Exceptional, Incredible, Truly Honorable Human Being (which he most certainly is) from David Robinson Exceptionally Gifted Athlete and Better-than-Average Basketball Player. To Spurs fans, there is no separation between his off-court excellence and his on-court performance. He's that kind of icon in the community. Of course, these are the same people who won't give Kobe the on-court credit he deserves based on his off-court transgressions.

To a certain degree, I'm one of those Spurs fans, too. But I can see that Hakeem was a superior basketball player (not person, Spurs fans). I don't know what series these folks were watching, but what I saw was my favorite player getting schooled one-on-one repeatedly. I realized then that Hakeem was the better basketball player. And that hurt like hell to accept. Some people don't want to deal with that hurt, and never will. To them, they truly believe that the entire world (outside of San Antonio) must be wrong.

Save your rant, whottt. I'm not going to read it.

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I'd just like to say welcome to bobbyjoe. It took you all of 35 posts to join the pantheon of highly intelligent an reasonable Laker fans that visit this board. It's nice to have you. We get so many idiot Laker fans during the season, that guys like you and the legendary adidas11 really stand out. Good posts, excellent reasoning.

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I would echo this....even though you and I don't see necessarily eye to eye bobbyjoe, you know your stuff. Welcome.

For the most part...Tek is right...I don't think all Spurs fans see big Dave with silver and black glasses...but he is highly revered here and with good reason.

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Originally Posted by tekdragon

I'd just like to say welcome to bobbyjoe. It took you all of 35 posts to join the pantheon of highly intelligent an reasonable Laker fans that visit this board. It's nice to have you. We get so many idiot Laker fans during the season, that guys like you and the legendary adidas11 really stand out. Good posts, excellent reasoning.

And don't pay too much attention to the homers. Unless you grew up in San Antonio, you'll never understand the pedestal David is place upon. It gets ridiculous sometimes (as in the "David was a better basketball player than Hakeem" arguement). Most Spurs fans don't have the ability to separate David Robinson the Once-In-A-Lifetime, Exceptional, Incredible, Truly Honorable Human Being (which he most certainly is) from David Robinson Exceptionally Gifted Athlete and Better-than-Average Basketball Player. To Spurs fans, there is no separation between his off-court excellence and his on-court performance. He's that kind of icon in the community. Of course, these are the same people who won't give Kobe the on-court credit he deserves based on his off-court transgressions.

To a certain degree, I'm one of those Spurs fans, too. But I can see that Hakeem was a superior basketball player (not person, Spurs fans). I don't know what series these folks were watching, but what I saw was my favorite player getting schooled one-on-one repeatedly. I realized then that Hakeem was the better basketball player. And that hurt like hell to accept. Some people don't want to deal with that hurt, and never will. To them, they truly believe that the entire world (outside of San Antonio) must be wrong.

Save your rant, whottt. I'm not going to read it.

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Mind explaining why you think Drob is inferior to Hakeem and overratted as a basketball player (not neccesarily whott's opinion, but others)? Not that I think he is better than Hakeem....

Chauncey Billups > Kobe Bryant

Ben Wallace > Shaq

Yes...welcome bobbyjoe...and as soon as you get tekdragon's tongue out of your ass(guy thinks sucking up to opposing fans and shitting on his own media shitted on players makes him sound knowledgable, what a rarity on these boards) feel free to try and back your argument up with something other than a Stephen A Soundbite and self asskicking contradictory statements...

That's what I love about the 1 playoff series argument...it's impossible to defend when applied from player to player...

Ohh shotblocking and steals are an indication of speed?

I guess we've figured out that Mark Eaton was the fastest C in NBA history...brilliant.

Meanwhile I leave you trying to explain how AJ was better than Kenny when in fact AJ was cut by the Rockets when they had them both...

I'll leave you tout Elliott's dominance over Horry...but then you still have to explain why the Rockets nixed a trade of Elliott for Horry...

But most of all I want you to fucking explain to me how Vinny fucking Del Negro even belongs on the same fucking court as Clyde Drexler...much less how Vinny was an advantage for Drob.

And then I want you to take a look at all the other years Hakeem didn't win titles...and see whose team performed better year in and year out, without the same payroll...


But yes...I echo Texsucks greeting to the latest and greatest member of the flat earth society, who can't differentiate between a basketball game and a boxing match. What rare knowlede...and wow...nobody ever argued that Hakeem was better than David based on the 94-95 playoffs and media perception before....how unique.

Nice try Whott.

Mark Eaton was 7'4". Not hard to figure out why he was a prolific shot blocker. And by the way, Eaton was never a leader in the Steals category.

When a guy who's 6'11" like Hakeem is blocking more shots than David Robinson, 7'2" and other taller guys in the league (6'11" is not an atypical height for a Center), it either means that he:

-Has superior defensive instincts (i don't believe that's the main reason)
-Has better hops (I don't think this is true either)
-Is quicker and more agile (bingo)

Hakeem had 4 seasons where he averaged over 2.0 steals per game. One year he was at 2.60. Tim Duncan has never averaged higher than 0.9 steals a game. DRob did average over 2.0 once, although like Hakeem he also posted excellent steal #'s for a Center due to his quicks (though not as many as hakeem)

Hakeem was much quicker than Tim Duncan and quicker than DRob. When you see guys like Kirilenko, DRob, Hakeem, Ben Wallace, etc among the nba season steal leaders it's because they are athletic freaks.

How else do you explain Hakeem averaging more steals per game every year in the league than DRob besides a quickness advantage? He was quicker to the ball.

And save the Eaton comment because he was a block leader, but never remotely close to a steal leader. You see the quick guys like GP, Stockton, MJ, etc atop steal leaders, not stiffs like Eaton. Mutombo's another example: Great shotblocker due to height, anticipation, and wingspan, but not quick, thust very low steal #'s.

You really must never have watched Hakeem play if you think he was no quicker than Tim. Tim's game isn't quickness, it's vastly superior fundamentals and skills. Hakeem's game was a combination of both, but he was definitely just as athletic if not moreso than DRob. I give Robinson the edge in pure speed (as in if they were racing down the court, I'd bet on DRob) but i give hakeem the edge in lateral quickness and agility, thus the superior steal and block #'s. Hops I'd probably give to DRob as well. Strength to hakeem, though DRob was more cut.

Whott,

It's already been established that even if you completely 100% discount the 95 WCF, Hakeem has much better career playoff stats than Robinson.

Not one year, not 2, not 3, not 5. Career playoff stats. They aren't close. That's always a huge factor when comparing 2 greats. Always.