Tony against other greats PGs

Throughout his career Tony faced a lot of great PGs in the playoffs: Marbury, Payton, Kidd, Nash, D.Williams, C.Paul, Billups, Curry, Westbrook, Lillard and beat them all. Tony has 4 rings, all those other combined have 3 (Payton, Kidd and Billups).
When you rank those PGs and all their achievements where you put Tony? For me there's no doubt he belongs to the top, with Kidd and Nash. All those other were great players, put great stats but I think we can't ignore Tony 4 rings. And also in the head to head match ups in the the Playoffs series none of those dominated Tony. What do you think?
It's also funny how long Tony has been in the top. He started in 2002 playing against Payton and last year was playing at a high level against Westbrook and Lillard.


Tony Parker :toast

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/T...U4RsizXKol.jpg

Tony is somewhat limited by the Spurs system. He's not the most athletic, but he's crafty and smart (the opposite of Westbrook). On a different team his numbers would have been higher. But he realized early he wanted to win, so he sacrificed numbers.

Patty>Tony.

/thread

He peaked in 07

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

He peaked in 07

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Nah

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

He peaked in 07

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Fine, you go with that. I'm going with 2013.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

He peaked in 07

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2013 tbh. But dude stunk it up in gm 6 & 7 though.

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Originally Posted by 100%duncan

Patty>Tony.

/thread

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I was going to tell you off then I saw the blue font.

:toast

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

Fine, you go with that. I'm going with 2013.

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this

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Originally Posted by scanry

2013 tbh. But dude stunk it up in gm 6 & 7 though.

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You go score on LeBron James with a grade 2 hamstring strain tbh

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

You go score on LeBron James with a grade 2 hamstring strain tbh

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That was the problem tbh.

I'd actually like to know his stats vs other PG's, because I can remember quite clearly the likes of Dragic, Nash, Conley, Kidd, WB, even Chalmers etc. raping the Spurs in years past.

Parker has always had a great perimeter defender to help lock down those opposing PG's, from Bowen to Green and Leonard. Can't forget about one of the ATG shot blockers in locking down the paint.

Tony Parker :toast

2013 Tony was 2014 Westbrook good. tbh, I can't wait to see what he looks like with some rest. Hopefully he didn't lose a step, his speed is his biggest asset, IMO.

Choke Paul is getting to T-Mac levels with his inability to get out of the 2nd round...

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Originally Posted by KL2

I'd actually like to know his stats vs other PG's, because I can remember quite clearly the likes of Dragic, Nash, Conley, Kidd, WB, even Chalmers etc. raping the Spurs in years past.

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I'd like to see some stats about all these guys "raping" the Spurs. I think it's going to be funny how bad your memory is.

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Originally Posted by scanry

2013 tbh. But dude stunk it up in gm 6 & 7 though.

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Hamstring.

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Originally Posted by scanry

That was the problem tbh.

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You go make 10-15 dimes on LeBron and the Miami defense with a grade 2 hamstring strain. No matter how you dice it, he had a significant injury. You move the goal posts now and are complaining that he was score-first, instead of just "stunk". Scoring is part of his game, and he is directed to do so. That's outside the injury.

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Originally Posted by will_spurs

I'd like to see some stats about all these guys "raping" the Spurs. I think it's going to be funny how bad your memory is.

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Ain't that the truth. Also, as if the other teams didn't try to put their lock down defenders on him. Stating The Spurs put their defenders on the opposing guards, while Tony had free range on offense. They totally game-planned in attempts to keep him out of the lane as well.

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Originally Posted by will_spurs

I'd like to see some stats about all these guys "raping" the Spurs. I think it's going to be funny how bad your memory is.

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I don't know the actual stats of him h2h, as I said, he's always had an ATG shot blocker at the rim and elite perimeter defenders guarding opposing PG's.

2012 Tony was a top 10 player in the regular season, and 2013 Tony was a top 5 player in the regular season

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Originally Posted by KL2

I don't know the actual stats of him h2h, as I said, he's always had an ATG shot blocker at the rim and elite perimeter defenders guarding opposing PG's.

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Deandre Jordan 2.5 blocks per game last season
Duncan 1.9

Paul, and others have had plenty of help around them, too. Tim has been good, but hasn't been the elite defender he was for several years. Before that, Paul had a young West and Chandler defending the rim. They weren't chopped liver. Using arguments that diminish Tony's accomplishments like "he has good defenders" allows us to diminish a guard like Nash's numbers: His assists are artificially inflated due to 7 seconds or less offense, or playing with Amar'e. I don't think that's fair to Nash. While there may be some nuggets of truth in each argument, it is difficult to hold something against Parker like you are. He had Bowen for a while, and elite Tim for a while, but Kawhi has only emerged in the last two-three years.

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Originally Posted by Spurs Brazil

For me there's no doubt he belongs to the top, with Kidd and Nash. All those other were great players...

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Gary Payton >>>>>>>>>> Steve Nash

Here's a real quick look at the playoff stats for Parker against other top point guards. I threw this together very quickly using basketball reference, so forgive any errors.

Against Payton, Kidd, Nash, Billups, Williams, Paul, and Westbrook:

Tony Parker has played 91 playoff games and has gone 54W-37L, a 59% win percentage.

Overall stats:
Parker: 18.8 PPG, 5.3 AST, 0.9 STL, 2.9 TO in 35.9 MIN/GM
Others: 18.3 PPG, 7.7 AST, 1.5 STL, 2.8 TO in 39 MIN/GM

Per/36 stats:
Parker: 18.9 PPG, 5.3 AST, 0.9 STL, 2.9 TO
Others: 16.9 PPG, 7.2 AST, 1.3 STL, 2.6 TO

The only series where Parker has really been beaten handily head-to-head is against Billups in 2005, where Parker averaged 13.9 PTS and 3.4 AST, compared to Billups' 20.4 PTS and 6.3 AST. Take those 7 games out and I'm sure the numbers are more in Parkers' favor.

Based on these stats, its hard to say that Parker doesn't deserve to be in the conversation as best of the era, especially given the fact that Payton and Westbrook are the only two people he doesn't have a winning record against (and he's 6-6 against Westbrook). You don't have to think he's the best, but to folks claiming he's been dominated by other top point guards, the numbers just don't bear that claim out.

Tony's longevity and consistent excellence wear them all down.

Tony Parker took his game to an MVP level in 2012 and 2013.

Tony is one of the greatest because he sacrificed his numbers for the good of the team. HE sacrificed super stardom for championships. He will probably have 1 or 2 more rings before its all said and done. Ginobili is on the same boat. Both incredible players who would have amazing stats anywhere else but sacrificed so much to win. :toast

Top 10 Point Guard of all time?

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Originally Posted by Spurs Brazil

For me there's no doubt he belongs to the top, with Kidd and Nash.

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http://media.giphy.com/media/2jTTuPlWwEFcQ/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by ajh18

Based on these stats, its hard to say that Parker doesn't deserve to be in the conversation as best of the era, especially given the fact that Payton and Westbrook are the only two people he doesn't have a winning record against (and he's 6-6 against Westbrook). You don't have to think he's the best, but to folks claiming he's been dominated by other top point guards, the numbers just don't bear that claim out.

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Parker may not have been able to guard Westbrook but people forget that Westbrook couldn't guard Parker either when Parker was healthy. The spurs used to easily beat OKC up until the 2012 playoffs due to Parker always lighting them up but that changed the moment Brooks had Thabo switch over and guard Parker instead of Russ. If you watch the OKC-Spurs game you will usually see Russ guarding Danny Green or at times Guarding Kawhi instead of Parker. Parker also held his own against prime GP way back in '02 as a rookie he had even series with GP. He outplayed GP in the first 2 games in'04 that it got to the level where Phil had to clog the paint and force Parker to shoot jumpers. What most haters don't realize is that whenever Parker had poor games he was usually shut down by a player who wasn't a PG ala Kittles,Thabo,Lebron. The only PG besides Billups I have seen who has given Parker major problems was Marbury back in '03.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

Fine, you go with that. I'm going with 2013.

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I agree but i think he could bring the 2013 level next year with the extra time off and its a contract year, I think we see a big year from him

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Originally Posted by ajh18

The only series where Parker has really been beaten handily head-to-head is against Billups in 2005, where Parker averaged 13.9 PTS and 3.4 AST, compared to Billups' 20.4 PTS and 6.3 AST. Take those 7 games out and I'm sure the numbers are more in Parkers' favor.

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And as bad as he was against Billlups, who was a nightmare matchup for him, when they switched and he was defending Rip Hamilton, he played the defense of his life and really frustrated him, which is a big reason they were able to win the title.

Jason Kidd is one of the most over rated players of all time imo.

People give him all the credit for 'making his team mates better' yet those 'successful' Nets teams of the early 00's won because of their D, which was always top 5 in the league based on defensive efficiency iirc. They were usually a middle of the pack offensive team.

Even though he was a good defender for his position, Kidd wasn't a huge factor in the Nets being such a good defensive team.

Tony's big man game in the paint is the best that Basketball ever seen by a PG in a basketball court tbh.

I've always thought that TP's game stats were not as impressive, assist-wise, as some others because of the team he plays on and the offensive scheme that this team uses. In TP's early years, before Tim's legs got so troublesome, the only offense was 4-down plays, where Tony's job was to give the ball to Tim and then get out of the way with the rest of the Spurs players, so that Tim could go one-on-one in the post, dribbling his way to the rim. Not much chance for assists in that situation.

Then the team went through the Tony-Tim two man game, where the offense was primarily pick and roll with Tim and Tony...wings were there for three point shots in case Tim and/or Tony couldn't take a shot or missed. Very often in those situations, Tim would be the buy to find the player on the wing, so that was a limit on the assist numbers as well.

In the last two years, as the Spurs' offense has become a truly great motion based offense (because they finally got a supporting cast that could make the plays that others couldn't in the 2009-2011 years), Tony's initial job on virtually every play is to bring the ball up, and still give it to Tim. Then Tony will start a loop play or a cut and reverse, while Tim surveys the court to see what the defense is giving the team. Still a lot of pick and roll, but more players on the team can both pass and dribble, and that has enabled more people to get assists. So, there is still that drag on pg assist numbers.

On defense, he has been significantly better in the last couple of years than he was before. Only in the Duncan/Robinson years was there a team of good shot blockers that the guards were told to drive the defender into. After that, they guards (all of them) kept driving the other teams' shooters toward the rim, but it was not longer as effective because we only had a shot blocker on one side of the rim.

Chauncey Billups was a nightmare for TP because Chauncey was so much bigger and stronger than TP at the time. Now TP has gotten much stronger himself.

Over the years, Tp has improved his shooting, his defense, his strength and his team leadership.

No point guard in the NBA, past or present, has matched him for fearlessness in the paint and ability to finish in the paint over big men, imo.

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Originally Posted by urunobili

Tony's big man game in the paint is the best that Basketball ever seen by a PG in a basketball court tbh.

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Tony Parker might be the best finisher I've ever seen at the rim in terms of artistry. I don't know that I've ever seen a point guard who can find ways to make a shot arc around 2-3 defenders, kiss the glass, and drop through the net. His touch around the rim should go down as legendary.

Parker will likely remain under-appreciated in the annals of NBA history because of the fact that he was a member of a collective dynasty (which is bizarre, if you think about it... does anyone think that McHale is diminished as a player because he played with the great Celtics team?) rather than an uncontested leader. But Parker is a phenomenal point guard who has the ability to completely take over a series.

Perhaps most importantly, he has never been a headcase or a cancer, and even when the Longoria drama was happening, Parker put his head down and played some great basketball.

I've spoken before about the next evolution in the NBA being guys who only "add" to a team, rather than having talented players that have caveats (won't play D, chuck routinely, cancer in the locker room, otherwise known as the Kobe Trifecta). Tony fits that mold quite well. He's not a stellar defender, although 2013 he was very good, and has locked down good point guards in the past, but he's at MINIMUM average at his position on D (if you think he's bad, check out the defense other PGs play in the league... most don't even try. Beverly is a terrible PG and has started just because he's a good defender at his position, that should tell you all you need to know about how starved the NBA is for even decent PGs defensively). If we apply the formula of average being a 0, 1 is slightly above average, 2 above average, 3 being excellent, and 4 being all-nba, in every category Tony will rate at least a 0, but will have a lot of 3s and 4s in there. Players like Kawhi Leonard, LeBron James, and Paul George are fantastic because they do everything well, rather than one or two things well and having a few really weak points.

Compare this to someone like James Harden, who is one of the greatest scorers in the game but also one of the worst defending starting players in the NBA (-4 on defense if we go by the above formula), and the difference is pretty clear. You don't want players who hurt you, as teams can zero in on that during the playoffs. Pop built a team of guys who did everything at least at a zero level. It sounds hokey, but look at the way teams and players are evolving and I think it makes a lot of sense. Why would you want a player who gives you a gaping hole in your team on your starting 5 (30+ mpg)? As offenses evolve to probe for weaknesses and defensive become more adaptive and faster, I think we'll see fewer and fewer superstars who are capable of being a serious MVP candidate without being a monster TWO-WAY player.

Parker is a great two way player because he doesn't hurt you anywhere, and his former weaknesses have been addressed. He now has a fantastic jumper and even a legitimate 3 point shot. Sag off him and he burns you. Westbrook is probably a better two way player, but he's also a massive headcase with an ego that needs to be constantly fed, so in that respect he's still a negative in some instances. Pop knew if he focused his defense on Durant in the WCF that Westbrook would try to take over the series and win it on his own, and he also knew that WB wasn't good enough to do that. And that's exactly what happened.

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

Westbrook is probably a better two way player, but he's also a massive headcase with an ego that needs to be constantly fed, so in that respect he's still a negative in some instances.

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Chris Paul is a better two-way player.

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Originally Posted by wildchild

Chris Paul is a better two-way player.

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Paul has a very limited shot from range and needs to distribute to do damage. He honestly cannot take over a game offensively like Tony can. The clippers got destroyed in Game 6 against OKC because the Thunder just sat back on D and sagged the paint a bit. Did you see the offense? It was a train wreck. As good as Paul is he hasn't shown that extra gear against good teams. He looked more dangerous when he played for New Orleans, actually.

He's also MASSIVELY overrated on D because of the high risk steals he goes for. He gets torched regularly. I think Parker when healthy is a better defender than Paul. Neither are great defenders but are both good for the position.

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Originally Posted by scanry

2013 tbh. But dude stunk it up in gm 6 & 7 though.

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He was injured.:rolleyes

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Originally Posted by mystargtr34

Jason Kidd is one of the most over rated players of all time imo.

People give him all the credit for 'making his team mates better' yet those 'successful' Nets teams of the early 00's won because of their D, which was always top 5 in the league based on defensive efficiency iirc. They were usually a middle of the pack offensive team.

Even though he was a good defender for his position, Kidd wasn't a huge factor in the Nets being such a good defensive team.

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The Nets got awfully damn good on both ends of the floor the instant Stephon Marbury was replaced with Jason Kidd. The Suns got awfully damn bad on both ends of the floor the instant Jason Kidd was replaced with Stephon Marbury.

Totally agree that Kidd=overrated. His lack of a consistent mid-range jumper eliminates him from the conversation.

My question to those who scoff at Parker being a potential top 5 PG all time. What is his weakness? He can get to the basket and finish. Since around 2007-8 he has had a very dependable jump shot. He distributes the ball well. He handles the ball well and never has to pick up his dribble. On defense he is better than average, from around 2005-8 or so he was a very good defender. Of course he also has 4 championships and a Finals MVP. He has been very durable and almost no injuries. He had always shot a very high shooting %.

Against all this we have the fact that his assist numbers are lower than guys like Nash and Kidd. But we all know that is because the Spurs offense moves the ball around and doesn't run every play though the PG. Parker would have had "better" stats playing his whole career for mediocre teams, but ge wouldn't have been a better player. Unfortunately many fans evaluate players like - " this guy is better because he averages 20.2 ppg as opposed to 18.7." Even though he has a lower shooting % and plays no defense.

Parker is ridiculously good and his game has evolved. How many clutch 3's has he hit late in the shot clock in the playoffs the last 2 years? His passing continues to improve, too.
I think it may be an unfair comparison, too, because Pop seems to like to encourage opposing point guards to score and limit their passing options.

Also, the times Parker has dominated head-to-head, he has completely worn down players with his speed and constant movement.

Winning percentage says a lot, AND Parker is top 10 all-time in playoff scoring.......none of the others in this conversation are near that.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

The Nets got awfully damn good on both ends of the floor the instant Stephon Marbury was replaced with Jason Kidd. The Suns got awfully damn bad on both ends of the floor the instant Jason Kidd was replaced with Stephon Marbury.

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Agree Kidd>>Marbury :lol.

I just find it hard to buy into the Kidd hype when he made his name being an offensive genius at the PG position by making his team mates better, yet as far as i can see every one of his teams during his prime years were below league average in terms of offensive efficiency. His pathetic FG% and lack of ability to apply scoring pressure himself killed his teams imo.

Just a quick check on basketball reference of those Nets teams shows they got by on being an elite defensive team, and although Kidd was a great defender at the PG spot, a PG can't have a huge impact on overall team D, not the way a big man who anchor's the D can anyway.

00-01 (w/Marbury)
O Rtg - 100.0 (24th of 29)
D Rtg - 105.5 (23rd of 29)

01-02 (w/Kidd)
O Rtg - 104.0 (17th of 29)
D Rtg - 99.5 (1st of 29)

02-03 (w/Kidd)
O Rtg - 103.9 (18th of 29)
D Rtg - 98.1 (1st of 29)

03-04 (w/Kidd)
O Rtg - 100.8 (25th of 29)
D Rtg - 98.0 (4th of 29)

Also for arguments sake, the 00-01 Suns during Kidd's last year with them.
O Rtg - 100.3 (22nd of 29)
D Rtg - 98.0 (2nd of 29)

Again, a very mediocre offensive team with a prime Kidd running the show.

Although the numbers do make it appear Kidd may be one of the best defensive players of all time :lol.

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

Tony Parker might be the best finisher I've ever seen at the rim in terms of artistry. I don't know that I've ever seen a point guard who can find ways to make a shot arc around 2-3 defenders, kiss the glass, and drop through the net. His touch around the rim should go down as legendary.

Parker will likely remain under-appreciated in the annals of NBA history because of the fact that he was a member of a collective dynasty (which is bizarre, if you think about it... does anyone think that McHale is diminished as a player because he played with the great Celtics team?) rather than an uncontested leader. But Parker is a phenomenal point guard who has the ability to completely take over a series.

Perhaps most importantly, he has never been a headcase or a cancer, and even when the Longoria drama was happening, Parker put his head down and played some great basketball.

I've spoken before about the next evolution in the NBA being guys who only "add" to a team, rather than having talented players that have caveats (won't play D, chuck routinely, cancer in the locker room, otherwise known as the Kobe Trifecta). Tony fits that mold quite well. He's not a stellar defender, although 2013 he was very good, and has locked down good point guards in the past, but he's at MINIMUM average at his position on D (if you think he's bad, check out the defense other PGs play in the league... most don't even try. Beverly is a terrible PG and has started just because he's a good defender at his position, that should tell you all you need to know about how starved the NBA is for even decent PGs defensively). If we apply the formula of average being a 0, 1 is slightly above average, 2 above average, 3 being excellent, and 4 being all-nba, in every category Tony will rate at least a 0, but will have a lot of 3s and 4s in there. Players like Kawhi Leonard, LeBron James, and Paul George are fantastic because they do everything well, rather than one or two things well and having a few really weak points.

Compare this to someone like James Harden, who is one of the greatest scorers in the game but also one of the worst defending starting players in the NBA (-4 on defense if we go by the above formula), and the difference is pretty clear. You don't want players who hurt you, as teams can zero in on that during the playoffs. Pop built a team of guys who did everything at least at a zero level. It sounds hokey, but look at the way teams and players are evolving and I think it makes a lot of sense. Why would you want a player who gives you a gaping hole in your team on your starting 5 (30+ mpg)? As offenses evolve to probe for weaknesses and defensive become more adaptive and faster, I think we'll see fewer and fewer superstars who are capable of being a serious MVP candidate without being a monster TWO-WAY player.

Parker is a great two way player because he doesn't hurt you anywhere, and his former weaknesses have been addressed. He now has a fantastic jumper and even a legitimate 3 point shot. Sag off him and he burns you. Westbrook is probably a better two way player, but he's also a massive headcase with an ego that needs to be constantly fed, so in that respect he's still a negative in some instances. Pop knew if he focused his defense on Durant in the WCF that Westbrook would try to take over the series and win it on his own, and he also knew that WB wasn't good enough to do that. And that's exactly what happened.

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TBH

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

Tony Parker might be the best finisher I've ever seen at the rim in terms of artistry. I don't know that I've ever seen a point guard who can find ways to make a shot arc around 2-3 defenders, kiss the glass, and drop through the net. His touch around the rim should go down as legendary.

Parker will likely remain under-appreciated in the annals of NBA history because of the fact that he was a member of a collective dynasty (which is bizarre, if you think about it... does anyone think that McHale is diminished as a player because he played with the great Celtics team?) rather than an uncontested leader. But Parker is a phenomenal point guard who has the ability to completely take over a series.

Perhaps most importantly, he has never been a headcase or a cancer, and even when the Longoria drama was happening, Parker put his head down and played some great basketball.

I've spoken before about the next evolution in the NBA being guys who only "add" to a team, rather than having talented players that have caveats (won't play D, chuck routinely, cancer in the locker room, otherwise known as the Kobe Trifecta). Tony fits that mold quite well. He's not a stellar defender, although 2013 he was very good, and has locked down good point guards in the past, but he's at MINIMUM average at his position on D (if you think he's bad, check out the defense other PGs play in the league... most don't even try. Beverly is a terrible PG and has started just because he's a good defender at his position, that should tell you all you need to know about how starved the NBA is for even decent PGs defensively). If we apply the formula of average being a 0, 1 is slightly above average, 2 above average, 3 being excellent, and 4 being all-nba, in every category Tony will rate at least a 0, but will have a lot of 3s and 4s in there. Players like Kawhi Leonard, LeBron James, and Paul George are fantastic because they do everything well, rather than one or two things well and having a few really weak points.

Compare this to someone like James Harden, who is one of the greatest scorers in the game but also one of the worst defending starting players in the NBA (-4 on defense if we go by the above formula), and the difference is pretty clear. You don't want players who hurt you, as teams can zero in on that during the playoffs. Pop built a team of guys who did everything at least at a zero level. It sounds hokey, but look at the way teams and players are evolving and I think it makes a lot of sense. Why would you want a player who gives you a gaping hole in your team on your starting 5 (30+ mpg)? As offenses evolve to probe for weaknesses and defensive become more adaptive and faster, I think we'll see fewer and fewer superstars who are capable of being a serious MVP candidate without being a monster TWO-WAY player.

Parker is a great two way player because he doesn't hurt you anywhere, and his former weaknesses have been addressed. He now has a fantastic jumper and even a legitimate 3 point shot. Sag off him and he burns you. Westbrook is probably a better two way player, but he's also a massive headcase with an ego that needs to be constantly fed, so in that respect he's still a negative in some instances. Pop knew if he focused his defense on Durant in the WCF that Westbrook would try to take over the series and win it on his own, and he also knew that WB wasn't good enough to do that. And that's exactly what happened.

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:tu

He'S never been a cancer ?


How bout bitching to the French media about the potential arrival of Jason Kidd?

Parker nuthuggers :lol

Tony is the best of his generation. Screw Payton, Screw Kidd, DWILL sucks, Screw no defence Nash, Screw injury riddled DROSE, Screw CP3, Screw Westbrook - Tony has more championships then series wins for CP3, well close anyway. No other PG of this generation has accolades to match Tony's resume, have to go back to Isiah and Magic to find one who compares. Team success is the number 1 goal in the NBA. Parker has more championships combined then Stockton 0, Payton 0, Kidd 0, DWILL 0, Nash 0, Rose , CP3 0. Not since early 90s Isiah Tomas is there a PG to have a resume as great as Tony's. Tony is the best of his generation, he gives his team exactly what it needs and it's accounted for 4 championships since 2003. Best of his generation hands down. He plays on a team, in a system, where players don't give a shit about individual stats but rather how many Larry Obrien Trophies they have. An Parker has more then all those other clowns combined. Thanks Timmy lol Tony number 1 PG of our generation. I said it.

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Originally Posted by lefty

He'S never been a cancer ?


How bout bitching to the French media about the potential arrival of Jason Kidd?

Parker nuthuggers :lol

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Holy shit, really?

If you were about to be traded and people wanted you gone so they could bring in a superstar, you would be pissed too.

And guess what? If Parker said nothing during that entire time, or just went along with it, you would rip him for not caring about the team or not being passionate enough, or just using it as an excuse to GTFO of San Antonio and go somewhere with limelight.

Dude has 4 rings, and is going to have his jersey in the lights about 5 minutes after he walks out of the AT&T Center for the last time. That must really fucking suck for you to have to deal with. Any time you come to the Center you're going to have to look up at #9. That will be a real, personal hell for you. And you'll scoff and talk about how overrated Parker was, but deep down it's going to burn you a little bit every time you think about it.

Chin up, champ. You only have about 6 more years of Tony being a factor on the court. Just a little over half a decade. And then he'll only haunt you from the rafters. :lol

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Originally Posted by Spurs Brazil

Throughout his career Tony faced a lot of great PGs in the playoffs: Marbury, Payton, Kidd, Nash, D.Williams, C.Paul, Billups, Curry, Westbrook, Lillard and beat them all. Tony has 4 rings, all those other combined have 3 (Payton, Kidd and Billups).
When you rank those PGs and all their achievements where you put Tony? For me there's no doubt he belongs to the top, with Kidd and Nash. All those other were great players, put great stats but I think we can't ignore Tony 4 rings. And also in the head to head match ups in the the Playoffs series none of those dominated Tony. What do you think?
It's also funny how long Tony has been in the top. He started in 2002 playing against Payton and last year was playing at a high level against Westbrook and Lillard.


Tony Parker :toast

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/T...U4RsizXKol.jpg

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I remember Tonys coming out party vs Gary Payton and the sonics in 2002! Man how time flys....

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Originally Posted by mystargtr34

Although the numbers do make it appear Kidd may be one of the best defensive players of all time :lol.

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Yeah, the defensive numbers jumped out at me. It might just be how terrible Stephon Marbury is, but I know Richard Jefferson and Kerry Kittles didn't turn the Nets into a world-beating defense.

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

Holy shit, really?

If you were about to be traded and people wanted you gone so they could bring in a superstar, you would be pissed too.

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No

Alpha Males dont bitch

Because a real Alpha MAle knows he won't get traded

A player who bitches is a beta cuck phaggot

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Originally Posted by lefty

No

Alpha Males dont bitch

Because a real Alpha MAle knows he won't get traded

A player who bitches is a beta cuck phaggot

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

Dude has 4 rings, and is going to have his jersey in the lights about 5 minutes after he walks out of the AT&T Center for the last time. That must really fucking suck for you to have to deal with. Any time you come to the Center you're going to have to look up at #9. That will be a real, personal hell for you. And you'll scoff and talk about how overrated Parker was, but deep down it's going to burn you a little bit every time you think about it.

Chin up, champ. You only have about 6 more years of Tony being a factor on the court. Just a little over half a decade. And then he'll only haunt you from the rafters. :lol

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

He honestly cannot take over a game offensively like Tony can... I think Parker when healthy is a better defender than Paul...

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In the real world or in a parallel universe like ST? Obviously Paul can take over games -threatening triple-doubles- and he's certainly no worse defender than Parker.

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Originally Posted by wildchild

In the real world or in a parallel universe like ST? Obviously Paul can take over games -threatening triple-doubles- and he's certainly no worse defender than Parker.

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I have brought this up elsewhere. What did Paul do in his pivotal game 5 against Oklahoma City this year? What did Tony Parker do in his pivotal game 5 against the same team?

We know what Paul did. It didn't work out so well. TP9 played an efficient 2-way game with points, assists, rebounding and a steal and got the Spurs in rhythm for a blowout.

And for some of the criticism TP9 got for his uneven finals performance, let's not forget his pivotal play in some of those games. In Game 4 he was the leader of the Spurs first-half offense and only scored less later as he was choosing to facilitate. He still ended up with 19 points. Kahwi did not really break out until the late second quarter / second half. And recall what Pop said to TP in Game 3 for his leadership.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

Dude has 4 rings, and is going to have his jersey in the lights about 5 minutes after he walks out of the AT&T Center for the last time. That must really fucking suck for you to have to deal with. Any time you come to the Center you're going to have to look up at #9. That will be a real, personal hell for you. And you'll scoff and talk about how overrated Parker was, but deep down it's going to burn you a little bit every time you think about it.

Chin up, champ. You only have about 6 more years of Tony being a factor on the court. Just a little over half a decade. And then he'll only haunt you from the rafters. :lol

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So? Is that supposed to impress me ?

They retired FUCKING AVERY JOHNSON's jersey FFS :lmao


Yeah I'll go there and take a pic of #9 next to #6 in the rafters :lmao

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Originally Posted by wildchild

In the real world or in a parallel universe like ST? Obviously Paul can take over games -threatening triple-doubles- and he's certainly no worse defender than Parker.

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I've yet to see him take over a playoff series recently. They got out of the first round because of MVGriffin, not because if Paul. I love his game, he's just too easy to shut down and it's becoming a trend that he seems to be PG geared for the regular season.

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Originally Posted by lefty

So? Is that supposed to impress me ?

They retired FUCKING AVERY JOHNSON's jersey FFS :lmao


Yeah I'll go there and take a pic of #9 next to #6 in the rafters :lmao

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It's good that you aren't butthurt about it though. Tell us how you really feel. Then realize that Parker will be considered the 4th best Spur of all-time when he's done, behind Duncan, DRob, and Iceman. Reconcile that and deal with it. #9 is going into the bright lights as an all-timer. Nothing you can do about it.

Hes the most underrated thats for sure. Hes the layup king. I wish he was a little better of a passer and 3 pt shooter because sometimes his lack of size and hops can get be defended like the Heat did. Right now hes the best though, especially scoring, and really especially, getting to the rim.

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

:cry

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by skulls138

Hes the most underrated thats for sure. Hes the layup king. I wish he was a little better of a passer because sometimes his lack of size and hops can get be defended like the Heat did. Right now hes the best though.

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He wasn't an elite passer when he was picked. His passing ability is probably as improved as any facet of his game since he came into the league, which is pretty remarkable. This season is the first where the Spurs were able to function and flourish even when Parker wasn't dominating.

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Originally Posted by lefty

:cry

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Top 5 Spur. Neal wit it.

:lol

I just don't get the Parker hate the guy shows up every year the Spurs have 5 rings and negative nancy weirdos just want to pop off.

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Originally Posted by lefty

:lol

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How can someone waste so much time/energy trolling that hard on one player...

You never get tired of it? Parker is a Spur since 2001 for God sake. We get that you hate everything France related but isn't it boring for you? You still find it fun to post the same shit for years?

I'm not sure why you guys still don't have him on your ignore list.

At his size, Parker is the best finisher I've seen since Iverson - and he's been able to do it an elite level for a decade now.

Always found it bizarre that he's so underrated on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

I'm not sure why you guys still don't have him on your ignore list.

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This.

Never thought that TP would be this good. Sure, I thought he'd be an all star maybe once or twice, but I never thought he'd be a #1 guy kind of good. The guy has been an all star 6 times, 4 all NBAs, a FMVP and 4 championships. At his age, he's still "young" enough and good enough to get at least 2 more all star appearances and another all nba imo

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Originally Posted by KL2

I'd actually like to know his stats vs other PG's, because I can remember quite clearly the likes of Dragic, Nash, Conley, Kidd, WB, even Chalmers etc. raping the Spurs in years past.

Parker has always had a great perimeter defender to help lock down those opposing PG's, from Bowen to Green and Leonard. Can't forget about one of the ATG shot blockers in locking down the paint.

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http://www.basketball-reference.com/...parketo01.html

-click "Finder"
- and go to game finder
-it will compile every game played against a player or team and show his stats along with the opposing player.

Parker has a realistic chance of reaching 20,000 points and 7,000 assists. He would only be 36 if he plays more seasons. 4 more seasons.

would only need to average 70 games played and 14 ppg and 5 apg over the next 4 seasons.

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Originally Posted by cd021

Parker has a realistic chance of reaching 20,000 points and 7,000 assists. He would only be 36 if he plays more seasons. 4 more seasons.

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Just to put this in context, in case some people think this is a common milestone in the NBA, only 2 players have reached it so far: Oscar Robertson and Gary Payton.

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Originally Posted by will_spurs

Just to put this in context, in case some people think this is a common milestone in the NBA, only 2 players have reached it so far: Oscar Robertson and Gary Payton.

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Wow.

His best season was arguably 2009, but 2013 is a close second.

Parker's career will look better in hindsight than some realize. His accomplishments are stacking up. Manu May have been better at his best, but there's no doubt TP has been more reliable and consistent. He not only has a Finals MVP, he also has been top 10 in regular season voting at least twice I think. He is a legit top 10 player in the NBA and top 1-3 PG's depending at how you see it. Parker wasn't anywhere near 100% in the playoffs and he still led the Spurs in scoring while playing PG on one of the best teams ever. Regular season success is just that- regular season success. Chris Paul has had some terrible playoff performances, and never even made it past the Conference semi-finals. Go Spurs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barbacoataco

he also has been top 10 in regular season voting at least twice I think.

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He's finished 4 times in the top 10 in MVP votes, actually, and once in the top 5.

Parker will be remembered as the best small guard ever inside the paint. Ev. Er.

if tony played for the knicks or fakers he would be considered one of the greatest of all time. Tony healthy equals best in the league.

TP is gonna have a freaking good 2014 season. I think he will peak next year tbh. This summer rest is gonna be great for him.

Nash is the only one who can be legitimately ranked against of him with two MVP's and a revolutionary playing style that was eventually perfected by Pop for the fifth title. He was big-shot-robbed from a title in 2007 as well and we would have remember him very differently.

But everyone else? If you are talking about all time greats, only three things matter, MVP, FMVP, rings.

Jason Kidd won nothing except a retirement ring.

Chris Paul won nothing, period.

John Stockton, same thing.

Isiah Thomas won 1 FMVP and 2 rings, still behind Parker for sure.

Only point guards I can rank ahead of Parker is Magic Johnson and I won't object if someone believe two MVP is better than 1 FMVP and 4 rings from an individual stand point, everyone else clearly behind Parker in accomplishments. He is incredibly efficient and like many said, had he played on an inferior team he would have padded his stats a lot more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Perry Mason

I have brought this up elsewhere. What did Paul do in his pivotal game 5 against Oklahoma City this year? What did Tony Parker do in his pivotal game 5 against the same team?.

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Game 5 Clips/Spurs vs Thunder

Paul 17 pts 14 assists 1 reb 4 stl

Parker 12 pts 4 assists 4 reb 1 stl

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We know what Paul did. It didn't work out so well. TP9 played an efficient 2-way game with points, assists, rebounding and a steal and got the Spurs in rhythm for a blowout.

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So...Tony played an efficient two-way game but not Paul with at least the same Parker numbers?

Paul's performance didn't work because the Clips lost that game? Well...maybe the Clippers aren't the Spurs.

Edit 'cause originally posted game 6 stats not 5. My bad.

Nash, Stockton, Paul are worse than Tony because they didn't win a ring?
Who knows but those guys could have won a title playing with Duncan...Nash-Timmy pick and roll would have been the most lethal offense in NBA history.

And for sure...Paul doesn't fit into Spurs system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 50Bestspurever

if tony played for the knicks or fakers he would be considered one of the greatest of all time. Tony healthy equals best in the league.

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This. I remember a few seasons back that he said if the spurs played in New York, LA or Chicago, they'd be treated like gods.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wildchild

Game 5 Clips/Spurs vs Thunder

Paul 25 pts 11 assists 7 reb 1 stl 50%FG 50%3P 100%FT 3TO

Parker 12 pts 4 assists 4 reb 1 stl 46%FG 0% 3P 0-0FT 2TO



So...Tony played an efficient two-way game but not Paul when at least he doubled Parker points, assists and rebounds?

Paul's performance didn't work because the Clips lost that game? Well...maybe the Clippers aren't the Spurs.

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Watch the game. Tony touches the ball or is involved in a hockey assist on most trips down the floor. Which is always the case for the Spurs and why TP9's assist numbers are deceiving.

Chris Paul, as usual, runs the simple "Chris Paul" offense (as VDN used to call it) and at the pivotal moments of the game with a chance to win, he shits himself and turns the ball over. It's fine to do this once. But it's the Chris Paul story every playoffs. He has a regular season game that is easier to control and lock down in the playoffs.

If I hear about Tony and "hockey assist" one more time...I may kill myself :depressed

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Originally Posted by wildchild

If I hear about Tony and "hockey assist" one more time...I may kill myself :depressed

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Tony is the king of hockey assists.

*crosses fingers*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barbacoataco

Parker's career will look better in hindsight than some realize. His accomplishments are stacking up. Manu May have been better at his best, but there's no doubt TP has been more reliable and consistent. He not only has a Finals MVP, he also has been top 10 in regular season voting at least twice I think. He is a legit top 10 player in the NBA and top 1-3 PG's depending at how you see it. Parker wasn't anywhere near 100% in the playoffs and he still led the Spurs in scoring while playing PG on one of the best teams ever. Regular season success is just that- regular season success. Chris Paul has had some terrible playoff performances, and never even made it past the Conference semi-finals. Go Spurs

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:lol Parker was absolutely horrible in the playoffs, tbh..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hitmantb

Nash is the only one who can be legitimately ranked against of him with two MVP's and a revolutionary playing style that was eventually perfected by Pop for the fifth title. He was big-shot-robbed from a title in 2007 as well and we would have remember him very differently.

But everyone else? If you are talking about all time greats, only three things matter, MVP, FMVP, rings.

Jason Kidd won nothing except a retirement ring.

Chris Paul won nothing, period.

John Stockton, same thing.

Isiah Thomas won 1 FMVP and 2 rings, still behind Parker for sure.

Only point guards I can rank ahead of Parker is Magic Johnson and I won't object if someone believe two MVP is better than 1 FMVP and 4 rings from an individual stand point, everyone else clearly behind Parker in accomplishments. He is incredibly efficient and like many said, had he played on an inferior team he would have padded his stats a lot more.

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Pretty illogical way to rank players, tbh, only factoring wins and ignoring the circumstances..

Since some people don't understand, in the NBA the regular season is a [email protected] affair that ranks barely above your local YMCA afternoon hustle. I mean the players are great, but halftime is a warmup and once one team gets a little ahead, the other team usually gives up. Not to mention that many teams are tanking or kind if tanking. The net result is ghat players can rack up various stats in meaningless games. Someone has to score.

In the playoffs, however, NBA teams play at the intensity that college teams play with all the time. That is, they play defense, contest shots, go for steals, you know trying to win. Playoff basketball is totally different than regular season basketball. Things that work a lot in the regular season don't work in the playoffs. The best finds the way to the top and the best players survive.

Learning to play with your team and executing as a team is a skill just like shooting, passing, dribbling etc. I don't know why some evaluate players on what they perceive as skills, like some of Steve Nash passing skills, as more important than the ability to win games. Steve Nash had a great team with Amare and everyone acts like he had no help. Also in 2007 Spurs won that series in 6 games. Defense wins playoff games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hitmantb

Nash is the only one who can be legitimately ranked against of him with two MVP's and a revolutionary playing style that was eventually perfected by Pop for the fifth title. He was big-shot-robbed from a title in 2007 as well and we would have remember him very differently.

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So much wow for such a short paragraph.

Steve Nash has two MVP trophies: One that belongs to Shaq and one that belongs to Lebron. There's nothing revolutionary about Steve Nash's game. He was a pick-and-roll point guard with no backup who flopped a lot and never played a fucking lick of defense. He was very lucky that he went to a team that everyone picked to finish dead last so they could give him credit for the huge talent upgrade that came along with him. It's a travesty that he finished in the top ten in MVP voting, let alone ever being awarded the trophy. The Suns had zero chance of winning that series against the Spurs. Congratulations to Nash's flop for pushing the series to six games, however. John Stockton was everything Nash ever was on the offensive end and more, and a thousand times the player he was on defense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by will_spurs

Tony is the king of hockey assists.

*crosses fingers*

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:shootme

Kemba Walker was king of hockey assists last year.
Tony Parker was tenth, behind
Walker, Curry, Paul, Conley, Deron Williams, David Lee, George Hill, Westbrook and DeRozan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barbacoataco

Since some people don't understand, in the NBA the regular season is a [email protected] affair that ranks barely above your local YMCA afternoon hustle. I mean the players are great, but halftime is a warmup and once one team gets a little ahead, the other team usually gives up. Not to mention that many teams are tanking or kind if tanking. The net result is ghat players can rack up various stats in meaningless games. Someone has to score.

In the playoffs, however, NBA teams play at the intensity that college teams play with all the time. That is, they play defense, contest shots, go for steals, you know trying to win. Playoff basketball is totally different than regular season basketball. Things that work a lot in the regular season don't work in the playoffs. The best finds the way to the top and the best players survive.

Learning to play with your team and executing as a team is a skill just like shooting, passing, dribbling etc. I don't know why some evaluate players on what they perceive as skills, like some of Steve Nash passing skills, as more important than the ability to win games. Steve Nash had a great team with Amare and everyone acts like he had no help. Also in 2007 Spurs won that series in 6 games. Defense wins playoff games.

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Winning games is a team effort, not an individual effort, and again, Parker was horrible in this year's playoffs..

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Originally Posted by Malik Hairston

Parker was horrible in this year's playoffs..

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No.

You can keep on saying it, it won't make it any more real, except in your fantasy world.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by will_spurs

No.

You can keep on saying it, it won't make it any more real, except in your fantasy world.

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:lol do you have an actual rebuttal?..

My "world" is facts and numbers..Tony was worst or close to worst in every credible metric among Spurs' rotation players in the playoffs, tbh..I don't know why Parker homers keep denying this, he had a down year in the playoffs, just like Duncan and Ginobili had down years before him..

He was just average vs. Miami, and absolutely horrendous vs. OKC, tbh..

2013 Parker was a beast, playing at the highest level of his career and at a superstar-caliber level..if the Spurs hadn't choked and he could have capped it off in games 6/7, his year would have been remembered as one of the 3-5 best seasons in PG history..

2014 Parker was a tired, worn down player that had to sit out stretches of games and was largely ineffective in the playoffs..the Spurs were literally better(statistically) when he was on the bench..

I'm dead but not buried.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by will_spurs

No.

You can keep on saying it, it won't make it any more real, except in your fantasy world.

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I've said before that Tony's a great player and amazing scorer, I'm glad he's on my team.

I just react when people say he's better playmaker than Nash, better two-way player/defender than Paul, or those dumb hockey assists comparisons, years and years we've been hearing about those assists...that's why I respond to the crazy interpretations of his game.

But talking about fantasy world, you really think Parker played great/even good? I remember game 7 against Dallas as the best Tony's game in playoffs, then he was injured (hamstring, ankle) and it was ugly to watch him play last series.

Tony was great in game 7 against Dallas (and was really good in that series except game 2 and 4 maybe, contrary to many Spurs players) and then absolutely torched Portland. For whatever reason, probably because that series went only 5 games, it's like round 2 never happened. But if that series lasted only 5 games it's mostly thanks to Parker. Then he was up and down against OKC (let's not forget he was 14 & 12 in game 1 and 22 & 5 in game 2, and lead the Spurs in assists in that series) and very solid against Miami (not extraordinary but still the highest ppg in the Finals, for example).

That's quite far from "horrible", whichever way you look at it.

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Originally Posted by Malik Hairston

:lol do you have an actual rebuttal?..

My "world" is facts and numbers..Tony was worst or close to worst in every credible metric among Spurs' rotation players in the playoffs, tbh..I don't know why Parker homers keep denying this, he had a down year in the playoffs, just like Duncan and Ginobili had down years before him..

He was just average vs. Miami, and absolutely horrendous vs. OKC, tbh..

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You cannot possibly be this stupid. You understand that teams have always game-planned to stop Parker, right? That's the way they used to beat the Spurs. When teams put their best defenders on you every second that you're on the court and send a second person to cheat onto you, your stats aren't great. If you're Kobe Bryant, you start putting up bad shots or throw a fit and pout. Parker doesn't even get down about it because the team is winning. At some point you have to be smart enough to admire the work ethic of the defensive lineman who takes double teams for an entire game while his teammates pressure the quarterback and realize what would happen without him.