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Tony is one of the greatest because he sacrificed his numbers for the good of the team. HE sacrificed super stardom for championships. He will probably have 1 or 2 more rings before its all said and done. Ginobili is on the same boat. Both incredible players who would have amazing stats anywhere else but sacrificed so much to win. :toast
Top 10 Point Guard of all time?
http://media.giphy.com/media/2jTTuPlWwEFcQ/giphy.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Spurs Brazil
Parker may not have been able to guard Westbrook but people forget that Westbrook couldn't guard Parker either when Parker was healthy. The spurs used to easily beat OKC up until the 2012 playoffs due to Parker always lighting them up but that changed the moment Brooks had Thabo switch over and guard Parker instead of Russ. If you watch the OKC-Spurs game you will usually see Russ guarding Danny Green or at times Guarding Kawhi instead of Parker. Parker also held his own against prime GP way back in '02 as a rookie he had even series with GP. He outplayed GP in the first 2 games in'04 that it got to the level where Phil had to clog the paint and force Parker to shoot jumpers. What most haters don't realize is that whenever Parker had poor games he was usually shut down by a player who wasn't a PG ala Kittles,Thabo,Lebron. The only PG besides Billups I have seen who has given Parker major problems was Marbury back in '03.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajh18
I agree but i think he could bring the 2013 level next year with the extra time off and its a contract year, I think we see a big year from himQuote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
And as bad as he was against Billlups, who was a nightmare matchup for him, when they switched and he was defending Rip Hamilton, he played the defense of his life and really frustrated him, which is a big reason they were able to win the title.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajh18
Jason Kidd is one of the most over rated players of all time imo.
People give him all the credit for 'making his team mates better' yet those 'successful' Nets teams of the early 00's won because of their D, which was always top 5 in the league based on defensive efficiency iirc. They were usually a middle of the pack offensive team.
Even though he was a good defender for his position, Kidd wasn't a huge factor in the Nets being such a good defensive team.
Tony's big man game in the paint is the best that Basketball ever seen by a PG in a basketball court tbh.
I've always thought that TP's game stats were not as impressive, assist-wise, as some others because of the team he plays on and the offensive scheme that this team uses. In TP's early years, before Tim's legs got so troublesome, the only offense was 4-down plays, where Tony's job was to give the ball to Tim and then get out of the way with the rest of the Spurs players, so that Tim could go one-on-one in the post, dribbling his way to the rim. Not much chance for assists in that situation.
Then the team went through the Tony-Tim two man game, where the offense was primarily pick and roll with Tim and Tony...wings were there for three point shots in case Tim and/or Tony couldn't take a shot or missed. Very often in those situations, Tim would be the buy to find the player on the wing, so that was a limit on the assist numbers as well.
In the last two years, as the Spurs' offense has become a truly great motion based offense (because they finally got a supporting cast that could make the plays that others couldn't in the 2009-2011 years), Tony's initial job on virtually every play is to bring the ball up, and still give it to Tim. Then Tony will start a loop play or a cut and reverse, while Tim surveys the court to see what the defense is giving the team. Still a lot of pick and roll, but more players on the team can both pass and dribble, and that has enabled more people to get assists. So, there is still that drag on pg assist numbers.
On defense, he has been significantly better in the last couple of years than he was before. Only in the Duncan/Robinson years was there a team of good shot blockers that the guards were told to drive the defender into. After that, they guards (all of them) kept driving the other teams' shooters toward the rim, but it was not longer as effective because we only had a shot blocker on one side of the rim.
Chauncey Billups was a nightmare for TP because Chauncey was so much bigger and stronger than TP at the time. Now TP has gotten much stronger himself.
Over the years, Tp has improved his shooting, his defense, his strength and his team leadership.
No point guard in the NBA, past or present, has matched him for fearlessness in the paint and ability to finish in the paint over big men, imo.
Tony Parker might be the best finisher I've ever seen at the rim in terms of artistry. I don't know that I've ever seen a point guard who can find ways to make a shot arc around 2-3 defenders, kiss the glass, and drop through the net. His touch around the rim should go down as legendary.Quote:
Originally Posted by urunobili
Parker will likely remain under-appreciated in the annals of NBA history because of the fact that he was a member of a collective dynasty (which is bizarre, if you think about it... does anyone think that McHale is diminished as a player because he played with the great Celtics team?) rather than an uncontested leader. But Parker is a phenomenal point guard who has the ability to completely take over a series.
Perhaps most importantly, he has never been a headcase or a cancer, and even when the Longoria drama was happening, Parker put his head down and played some great basketball.
I've spoken before about the next evolution in the NBA being guys who only "add" to a team, rather than having talented players that have caveats (won't play D, chuck routinely, cancer in the locker room, otherwise known as the Kobe Trifecta). Tony fits that mold quite well. He's not a stellar defender, although 2013 he was very good, and has locked down good point guards in the past, but he's at MINIMUM average at his position on D (if you think he's bad, check out the defense other PGs play in the league... most don't even try. Beverly is a terrible PG and has started just because he's a good defender at his position, that should tell you all you need to know about how starved the NBA is for even decent PGs defensively). If we apply the formula of average being a 0, 1 is slightly above average, 2 above average, 3 being excellent, and 4 being all-nba, in every category Tony will rate at least a 0, but will have a lot of 3s and 4s in there. Players like Kawhi Leonard, LeBron James, and Paul George are fantastic because they do everything well, rather than one or two things well and having a few really weak points.
Compare this to someone like James Harden, who is one of the greatest scorers in the game but also one of the worst defending starting players in the NBA (-4 on defense if we go by the above formula), and the difference is pretty clear. You don't want players who hurt you, as teams can zero in on that during the playoffs. Pop built a team of guys who did everything at least at a zero level. It sounds hokey, but look at the way teams and players are evolving and I think it makes a lot of sense. Why would you want a player who gives you a gaping hole in your team on your starting 5 (30+ mpg)? As offenses evolve to probe for weaknesses and defensive become more adaptive and faster, I think we'll see fewer and fewer superstars who are capable of being a serious MVP candidate without being a monster TWO-WAY player.
Parker is a great two way player because he doesn't hurt you anywhere, and his former weaknesses have been addressed. He now has a fantastic jumper and even a legitimate 3 point shot. Sag off him and he burns you. Westbrook is probably a better two way player, but he's also a massive headcase with an ego that needs to be constantly fed, so in that respect he's still a negative in some instances. Pop knew if he focused his defense on Durant in the WCF that Westbrook would try to take over the series and win it on his own, and he also knew that WB wasn't good enough to do that. And that's exactly what happened.
Chris Paul is a better two-way player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cry Havoc
Paul has a very limited shot from range and needs to distribute to do damage. He honestly cannot take over a game offensively like Tony can. The clippers got destroyed in Game 6 against OKC because the Thunder just sat back on D and sagged the paint a bit. Did you see the offense? It was a train wreck. As good as Paul is he hasn't shown that extra gear against good teams. He looked more dangerous when he played for New Orleans, actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildchild
He's also MASSIVELY overrated on D because of the high risk steals he goes for. He gets torched regularly. I think Parker when healthy is a better defender than Paul. Neither are great defenders but are both good for the position.
He was injured.:rolleyesQuote:
Originally Posted by scanry
The Nets got awfully damn good on both ends of the floor the instant Stephon Marbury was replaced with Jason Kidd. The Suns got awfully damn bad on both ends of the floor the instant Jason Kidd was replaced with Stephon Marbury.Quote:
Originally Posted by mystargtr34
Totally agree that Kidd=overrated. His lack of a consistent mid-range jumper eliminates him from the conversation.
My question to those who scoff at Parker being a potential top 5 PG all time. What is his weakness? He can get to the basket and finish. Since around 2007-8 he has had a very dependable jump shot. He distributes the ball well. He handles the ball well and never has to pick up his dribble. On defense he is better than average, from around 2005-8 or so he was a very good defender. Of course he also has 4 championships and a Finals MVP. He has been very durable and almost no injuries. He had always shot a very high shooting %.
Against all this we have the fact that his assist numbers are lower than guys like Nash and Kidd. But we all know that is because the Spurs offense moves the ball around and doesn't run every play though the PG. Parker would have had "better" stats playing his whole career for mediocre teams, but ge wouldn't have been a better player. Unfortunately many fans evaluate players like - " this guy is better because he averages 20.2 ppg as opposed to 18.7." Even though he has a lower shooting % and plays no defense.
Parker is ridiculously good and his game has evolved. How many clutch 3's has he hit late in the shot clock in the playoffs the last 2 years? His passing continues to improve, too.
I think it may be an unfair comparison, too, because Pop seems to like to encourage opposing point guards to score and limit their passing options.
Also, the times Parker has dominated head-to-head, he has completely worn down players with his speed and constant movement.
Winning percentage says a lot, AND Parker is top 10 all-time in playoff scoring.......none of the others in this conversation are near that.
Agree Kidd>>Marbury :lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
I just find it hard to buy into the Kidd hype when he made his name being an offensive genius at the PG position by making his team mates better, yet as far as i can see every one of his teams during his prime years were below league average in terms of offensive efficiency. His pathetic FG% and lack of ability to apply scoring pressure himself killed his teams imo.
Just a quick check on basketball reference of those Nets teams shows they got by on being an elite defensive team, and although Kidd was a great defender at the PG spot, a PG can't have a huge impact on overall team D, not the way a big man who anchor's the D can anyway.
00-01 (w/Marbury)
O Rtg - 100.0 (24th of 29)
D Rtg - 105.5 (23rd of 29)
01-02 (w/Kidd)
O Rtg - 104.0 (17th of 29)
D Rtg - 99.5 (1st of 29)
02-03 (w/Kidd)
O Rtg - 103.9 (18th of 29)
D Rtg - 98.1 (1st of 29)
03-04 (w/Kidd)
O Rtg - 100.8 (25th of 29)
D Rtg - 98.0 (4th of 29)
Also for arguments sake, the 00-01 Suns during Kidd's last year with them.
O Rtg - 100.3 (22nd of 29)
D Rtg - 98.0 (2nd of 29)
Again, a very mediocre offensive team with a prime Kidd running the show.
Although the numbers do make it appear Kidd may be one of the best defensive players of all time :lol.
TBHQuote:
Originally Posted by Cry Havoc
:tuQuote:
Originally Posted by Cry Havoc
He'S never been a cancer ?
How bout bitching to the French media about the potential arrival of Jason Kidd?
Parker nuthuggers :lol
Tony is the best of his generation. Screw Payton, Screw Kidd, DWILL sucks, Screw no defence Nash, Screw injury riddled DROSE, Screw CP3, Screw Westbrook - Tony has more championships then series wins for CP3, well close anyway. No other PG of this generation has accolades to match Tony's resume, have to go back to Isiah and Magic to find one who compares. Team success is the number 1 goal in the NBA. Parker has more championships combined then Stockton 0, Payton 0, Kidd 0, DWILL 0, Nash 0, Rose , CP3 0. Not since early 90s Isiah Tomas is there a PG to have a resume as great as Tony's. Tony is the best of his generation, he gives his team exactly what it needs and it's accounted for 4 championships since 2003. Best of his generation hands down. He plays on a team, in a system, where players don't give a shit about individual stats but rather how many Larry Obrien Trophies they have. An Parker has more then all those other clowns combined. Thanks Timmy lol Tony number 1 PG of our generation. I said it.
Holy shit, really?Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty
If you were about to be traded and people wanted you gone so they could bring in a superstar, you would be pissed too.
And guess what? If Parker said nothing during that entire time, or just went along with it, you would rip him for not caring about the team or not being passionate enough, or just using it as an excuse to GTFO of San Antonio and go somewhere with limelight.
Dude has 4 rings, and is going to have his jersey in the lights about 5 minutes after he walks out of the AT&T Center for the last time. That must really fucking suck for you to have to deal with. Any time you come to the Center you're going to have to look up at #9. That will be a real, personal hell for you. And you'll scoff and talk about how overrated Parker was, but deep down it's going to burn you a little bit every time you think about it.
Chin up, champ. You only have about 6 more years of Tony being a factor on the court. Just a little over half a decade. And then he'll only haunt you from the rafters. :lol
I remember Tonys coming out party vs Gary Payton and the sonics in 2002! Man how time flys....Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurs Brazil