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Look, I really like Baynes, but I've faced the reality that this is pretty much his "prime". He's not exactly young, and while he is a good rebounder, he's pretty slow and his offense is mediocre. Now, I'm not saying I don't want him on our squad, he's a solid 10-12th man, but when there's players that's generating little attention in free agency, such as Emeka Okafor and in a lesser degree O'Neal. That would be a pretty big upgrade and most importantly would glue Ayres to the bench.
Jermaine O'Neal is a great backup big when he's on the court...but the problem is actually keeping him on the court and healthy. He played 24 games in 2011, 25 games in 2012, 55 games in 2013, and 44 games last year.
If he could stay healthy, he'd definitely be an upgrade over Baynes.
Keep Baynes, Drop Ayres. Pick up another big.
MEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO W
Would rather have Baynes meow. Knows the system meow and only got better as the year went on last year. Plus he's already on a cheap deal meow. All things considered, there's no reason to drop a cheap meow known commodity to bring in someone else who isn't going to be that much of an upgrade meow...if one at all.
1. Okafor (if he is actually healthy)-His D is too good to pass up and he seems like a team first guy.
2. Baynes-He sets great screens and showed improvement in the Portland series
Hard to judge Okafor without seeing if/how he comes back from his neck injury but the fact he was contemplating retirement before last season would make me skeptical. Spurs don't really need another center, and at this point Baynes is an upgrade over O'Neal since he is more mobile, more dependable (health-wise), and has the strength to body-up with the likes of Howard, Adams, ect
Okafor is probably still a better center than Baynes. Despite coming off a neck injury i'd roll the dice on Okafor at the expense of Baynes. Probably take O'neal or Baynes as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthentherewas21
Its not like Adams is an offensive force. Baynes could be useful against Howard but thats in very limited situations. He isn't as useful as people make him out to be.
Spurs aren't going to pay $1.8 million to a player to leave the team. He only has 1 more season and if they do waive him, it would be probably be toward the buy out season.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesignatedT
This. I don't get why people see this as a hard concept. Dayres could be waived, giving us two roster spots. Raise ticket prices by a couple bucks to help pay the bill; I know spurfans wouldn't mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesignatedT
i dont know what they were expecting to see out of Daye in the summer league :lol... should have let him walk before his contract became guaranteed
I'd love the spurs to take a look at okafor but haven't heard anything news wise about him recently
Current Jermaine O'Neal? :lol
To each their own. Okafor could very well be the better center he just has more question marks then I'd personally be comfortable given we already have an empty frontcourt jersey with Ayres. Okafor definitely was better than Baynes pre-injury, but given the lack of offers and the fact he hasn't played in a year its hard to judge what kind of impact he could have. As far as O'neal goes, he and Baynes had similar production per 36 minutes last season, with the exception of O'neal being a better rim-protector. Defensive rating the two are similar, although O'neal had a much better Ortg (although it was a significant outlier for his career). All in all I don't see enough of a difference to where O'neal would be an upgrade especially without knowing the Spurs system. And since the role for either player would be filling in for a potential injury at a moment's notice, I just trust the 27yr old with less wear as the insurance policy over the nearly 36 yr old with 17 nba seasons on his legs.Quote:
Originally Posted by cd021
Aron Baynes: 1
Emeka Okafor: 0
Jermaine O'Neal: 0
Sounds about right to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by eDizzle20
The truth, tbh. :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by spurraider21
Baynes defensively can defend above the rim and is a shot blocking threat in general. His post defense is good because he is so strong and hard to get position on if you don't beat him down the court. He gets winded but he hustles running the floor.Quote:
Originally Posted by cd021
We need one of Baynes, Splitter or Duncan on the floor at all times or the team starts giving up drives. Any two of Ayers, Bonner, and Diaw and you allow layup drills to start.
That you do not mention his rim protection and only talk about his play against huge centers leaves what he can do incomplete.
if you want to slam him then talk about how he is clueless in running horns and the motion offense and breaks continuity when he holds the ball or dribbles off to an arbitrary spot. He can score with either hand out of the post but while his form looks good his jumper does not fall nearly as much as you would want.
You don't know this and it is entirely possible that it would be the most beneficial circumstance possible. How about you argue on merit rather than bluster certainty about the most opaque front office in the NBA.Quote:
Originally Posted by cd021
Sure, I don't know that for sure but they'd much rather try to trade him than to cut him. If they were looking to move him, I think that they could if they attach a unprotected second round pick.Quote:
Originally Posted by FuzzyLumpkins
I was speculating about the Spurs not being willing to cut him. I believe that I am correct about that though. They sent him to summer league, likely not to showcase him, but to help him get some more familiarity with the system.
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by benefactor
Its not like I'm slamming him. I was fairly impressed by his late season/postseason performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by FuzzyLumpkins
I do think that if Okafor is healthy and willing that he is an upgrade and a legit rotation player. Thats not just over Baynes but over Bonner and Ayers as well.
O'Neal is injury prone but I'd consider taking a chance on him as well.
Baynes, at the moment, isn't much of a rim protector. He fouls a bit much for that but he he can improve in that area. You're overstating his shot blocking ability, its almost non-existent in 591 minutes he blocked 5 shots (1 every 118 minutes of floor time).
That ,of course, doesn't make him a bad defender. Splitter ,for example, only blocked 42 shots in 1787 minutes (1 every 42 minutes of floor time).
I hope he develops into a our backup center, a guy who can play 15 mpg and play solid on both sides. It could happen this season. He has the tools and is cheap enough. I just think Okafor would be better.
Offensively is where I like him the most. He finishes with physicality and has some finesse as well.
He is 27 and I don't think he he can improve but so much at this point. He probably is what he is and that is an fringe rotation player for the Spurs.
Eisenberg: Is Aron Baynes the next Bill Laimbeer?
July 28, 2014 by Jacob Eisenberg
It might sound ridiculous to try to compare Aron Baynes, an undrafted reserve with four career starts, to Bill Laimbeer, a four-time All Star and NBA champion. However, the two have more in common than you would expect.
Before Laimbeer became the ringleader for the Pistons’ Bad Boys and a namesake for a Super Nintendo videogame, he was an afterthought.
Sandwiched in the draft between two players who never appeared in the NBA, Laimbeer – the 65th overall pick in 1979 – was forced to start his professional career in Italy for developmental purposes.
His limitations were obvious: forgettable leaping ability, slow legs in transition and – most glaringly – a mere 6.4 points and 5.5 rebounds per game in his senior year at Notre Dame. Still, at nearly seven feet tall and 250 pounds, Laimbeer was a physical mammoth, enabling him to eventually find a place in the league under the typecast of a “bruiser.”
Nearly every team has a bruiser in today’s NBA. Even as the league has veered away from the hard fouls of bully ball, physical reserves have remained crucial in the rare moments when teams need to slow down elite big men or deliver message fouls to opposing stars.
As a result, bruisers have become the NBA’s most situational and limited role player: lefty specialists of basketball, if you will.
Most bruisers find their niche and embrace its simplicity. Reggie Evans, for example, has played for seven teams in 12 NBA seasons and has pedestrian career averages of 4.1 points and 7.2 rebounds. At 6-8, he is undersized for a big man and he’s never blocked more than 16 shots in an entire season. BKN_Evans_Reggie
For a frame of reference, Andrea Bargnani – whom no one would ever accuse of playing defense – had more blocks in 2009-2010 than Evans has had in his entire career. Still, Evans continues to make a living because he is willing to do a team’s dirty work and get rough.
It might be surprising to learn that Laimbeer was only slightly more versatile than Evans for most of his career. Unlike Evans, however, Laimbeer eventually developed out of his one-dimensional game and became one of the league’s most dangerous offensive weapons.
History remembers Laimbeer’s offensive versatility fondly; He was one of the league’s first stretch big men, netting more than 200 3-pointers in his career. In truth, Laimbeer was incredibly limited for much of his career. He never attempted more than 21 threes in a season until the age of 30 and shot above the league average from deep in just three of his 14 seasons.
Still, because Laimbeer’s offensive game expanded at the outset of the Pistons’ first championship run, fans 25 years later remember him as a perennial floor spacer.
Strength is one of the few assets that all players maintain as they age. So as Laimbeer developed his offensive touch in his late 20s, he suffered no discernible regressions on defense in terms of physical presence around the rim.
Look around the league today and it’s increasingly clear that Laimbeer’s game has yet to be mimicked by anyone. While stretch big men are more present than ever, very few – if any – supplement their perimeter shooting with interior defensive dependability.
That’s a large reason why Channing Frye got $32 million from Orlando this summer despite averaging just 5.1 rebounds as Phoenix’s most effective big last season. It’s also why Chris Bosh is still regarded as a max player by most executives around the league: Big men who stretch the floor can turn a good offense into a dynamic one. While also supplying dependable interior defense, they can create matchup nightmares for opposing bigs with limited mobility.
Which brings us to Baynes, the 27-year-old restricted free agent from Australia. Baynes sat behind Tim Duncan, Tiago Splitter, Boris Diaw and Matt Bonner in the Spurs’ rotation last season, so it is understandable why he’s gone under the radar for so long.
In terms of functionality, Baynes was asked to perform the Reggie Evans role for the Spurs. No more, no less. Rebound effectively, commit hard fouls and agitate opponents of higher profile. In limited time over the past two seasons, Baynes has performed that role masterfully.
Watch Baynes go pound-for-pound with Dwight Howard in the 2013 playoffs and largely succeed. Howard was eventually ejected:
What makes Baynes so intriguing, however, is that he can be so much more on the floor than what San Antonio asks him to be. He’s settled into a Reggie Evans-like role out of team necessity — not out of skill limitation.
Most obviously, Baynes’ analytic projections indicate that he could be a double-double machine. Expanded to 36 minutes, Baynes’ statistics from last season balloon to 11.8 points and 10.6 rebounds. Those are starter-quality numbers, and they barely scratch the surface of his full potential.
Baynes’ rebounding numbers are legitimately impressive, borderline elite. Over the course of the 2013-2014 regular season, Baynes ranked fourth in the entire NBA in contested rebound percentage with 49 percent of his boards coming in traffic (per NBA Stats).
Baynes also swallowed 16.6 percent of all available rebounds (rebound percentage) while on the court last season, a number identical to Laimbeer’s in both of the Pistons’ championship seasons.
Analytics identify Laimbeer (a former rebounding champ and 32nd in history in career boards) as a better defensive rebounder than Baynes but conversely state that Baynes’ offensive rebounding percentage of 13.6 percent from last season would have matched Laimbeer’s very best offensive rebounding season.
And it’s not just the rebounding. Baynes emulates Laimbeer as an interior defensive presence as well.
In the 2014 playoffs, opponents shot just 40.9 percent against Baynes at the rim. While the sample size is small, that’s a percentage on par with the NBA’s best rim protectors in the NBA. For the season, Baynes’ rim protection was on par with most centers (per NBA Stats).
Rebounding and interior rim protection are talents nearly all bruisers have. What really distinguishes Baynes from the Evans-types is his offensive versatility.
In the playoffs, Baynes averaged 0.49 points per touch of the ball, far and away the most efficient of any Spurs player. Of course, the clever passing from Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Diaw and company aided that number.
More tellingly on offense, Baynes also showed deft touch from the center of the floor in limited time during the regular season.Aron Baynes Shot Chart
Eliminate the ill-advised shots from the sides of the hoop and Baynes’ midrange percentages are encouraging. Add the fact that he shot 19-of-21 from the free throw line last season and it is clear Baynes has a sound shooting touch.
Perhaps just a willingness to shoot from midrange makes Baynes a worthwhile project. He connected on 9-of-32 midrange catch-and-shoot opportunities in the regular season. That’s not a spectacular percentage, but keep in mind that Laimbeer also was lost from the perimeter (20-for-90) until his eighth season.
Baynes has only played parts of two seasons and has still yet to hit his prime at age 27. With proper form on his shot already in place and enough confidence to keep shooting, Baynes should be able to gradually expand his Aron Baynes shootinggame to the perimeter and become a deep-ball threat by the age of 30.
You might remember Frye only started attempting and connecting on 3-pointers consistently after four full seasons of perimeter futility. Baynes still has plenty of time and reason to develop a perimeter shot.
Baynes is currently a restricted free agent. San Antonio has extended a qualifying offer for less than $1 million in hopes of retaining him. However, if a team offers him an expanded role and a contract in the range of three years for $6 million, that might prove to be too expensive for the Spurs to match.
It’s time for teams to start taking notice of the underappreciated players Gregg Popovich and R.C. Buford like. They usually turn out pretty good.
Jacob Eisenberg is a senior at Emory University in Atlanta and covers analytics within the NBA for Sheridan Hoops. Give him a follow on twitter @eisenberg43 and check out his website as well.
Read more at http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2014/07...86WWLF008pt.99
A full on Baynes article, nice.
A good read and very good points made. I like Baynes a lot and think we really would be nuts not to keep him. Sure, he is a bruiser but he has a lot of offense talent as well and I think the guy is just going to get better over time (think Splitter). Spurs need to get this done.
Why does it have to be over Baynes? Why not cut Ayres and keep Baynes as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurs Brazil
Worth noting that Baynes was 26 as a rookie as opposed to Laimbeer, who was a 23 year old rookie. Also Laimbeer started immediately once he got into the NBA (he actually missed only 9 games in his first 13 seasons) Baynes has played only 69 games (9 mpg) over 2 seasons and will be 28 in December.
At the moment his career doesn't project that way, at least not in San Antonio.
A problem Baynes could have in finding a Laimbeer level of success in San Antonio is that Splitter is under contract for 3 more seasons (Baynes would be 30 by the time that deal is up) and likely to take on a much bigger role once Duncan retires.
Baynes maybe could develop into a good to very good backup in San Antonio, given both of them are centers.
Taj Gibson may be (granted he is a PF) a better comparison.
double post
Valid points. I would point out that O'Neals P.E.R was 15.3 to Baynes 9.7 (granted O'Neal played much more than Baynes did) and O'Neal was a +11 Net Rtg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthentherewas21
But I would probably take Baynes over O' Neal because has only appeared in 70 games in 2 of the last 10 seasons.
Baynes still has room to improve while O'Neal is what he is.
I love what Baynes brings to the table. Ayres on the other hand? The dude who can't catch a basketball and misses 4 dunks in 1 game? Please upgrade his goofy ass with Okafor or O'neal. Anyone but Ayres.
while i do agree baynes does not have much potential, i don't see the need to compare him with old fossiles that have not done anything meaningful in like forever if ever..
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven
Okafor and O'Neal may be better shot blockers but blocking shots does not mean great defense. Baynes' fouls have come down when he learned to not jump at every single person in the paint. His main defense comes from bugging the shit out of big men. He did it with Dwert two years ago and the Portland/OKC fags this past playoffs. O'Neal is just too damn old to be banging around in the paint.
But if I had to choose...I'd definitely take Okafor over Ayres.
Why do Spurs fans always want washed-up players with big names, tbh?..
It's not merely about the potential contribution of the players in question, it's also about attitudes and expectations..
A player like O'Neal or Okafor is accustomed to receiving minutes and being guaranteed a role in the league, O'Neal in particular..even in his advanced age, he has still been given a role where he's going to play 15+ minutes per game, when healthy..
Okafor probably has more left in the tank, so I imagine he would expect a guaranteed rotational role, too..
Baynes was the 10th/11th man last year, he wasn't always guaranteed minutes, his PT fluctuated, and he didn't make any noise about it IIRC..you can't have washed-up ex-stars in that role IMO, especially vocal players like O'Neal..
I wouldn't mind Okafor is he's available on the cheap, Don't want anything to do with O'Neal though.