Ukraine situation deterioriating

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

I expect that NATO electronic sensors to be pretty accurate.

You are gullible if you believe for a second that Ukraine might have shot down that airliner, or assign such evidence any weight at all.

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And the separatists did it why? If they're that shitty to mistake an airliner for a military jet then how did they last this long.

all one has to ask is this - who benefits?

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

I expect that NATO electronic sensors to be pretty accurate.

You are gullible if you believe for a second that Ukraine might have shot down that airliner, or assign such evidence any weight at all.

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"The United States contributes between one-fifth and one-quarter of NATO's budget. "

I do not trust anything the USA has 1/4 control over

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Originally Posted by Infinite_limit

"The United States contributes between one-fifth and one-quarter of NATO's budget. "

I do not trust anything the USA has 1/4 control over

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What about 2/9 ths?

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Originally Posted by Infinite_limit

"The United States contributes between one-fifth and one-quarter of NATO's budget. "

I do not trust anything the USA has 1/4 control over

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Meh. It doesn't take much trust especially when the evidence provided merely confirms common sense.

The redneck seperatists were given sophisticated SAMs according to Russias own news service, which they were using to blow Ukrainian aircraft, including transports out of the sky. Immediately afterwards, the rebels claimed they had shot down another transport, then deleted that claim in a huge hurry. The rebels have not been using aircraft, as they have none, so the Ukranian anti-aircraft defenses have had no need to shoot anything down.

Not hard to figure out what happened, unless one have some inbuilt confirmation bias preventing one from looking at it objectively.

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Originally Posted by Agloco

Give me the payload.

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that's what she said

(sorry...)

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Originally Posted by m>s

And the separatists did it why? If they're that shitty to mistake an airliner for a military jet then how did they last this long.

all one has to ask is this - who benefits?

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As noted, it was a horrible mistake by the amatuer hour seperatists.

They lasted this long, because the Ukraine military is pretty sad, and they are getting a LOT of weapons and russian nationals propping them up.

Here is a decent bit on Ukrainian military readiness, props to Russian military analysis:

http://www.jamestown.org/regions/rus...8#.U_TRrvldVVg
Their assessment dovetails with many other's. Just google the terms: Ukrainian military readiness for more.

The separatists will not last much longer though. Despite the crappy overall capabilities of the Ukrainian military, they vastly outnumber the separatists, and have both artillery, armored, and air capabilities that the separatists sorely lack.

The main Russians that have been heading the groups have fled the rapidly closing pocket that they were in, and many other Russian nationalists that were interspersed appear also to be getting while the getting is good.

Ukraine rebel movement faces uncertain future
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-rebel-...085220247.html

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Alexander Borodai, the premier of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, and Igor Strelkov, his military commander, had together formed the rebels' leadership against Ukrainian troops since armed men first seized state buildings across eastern Ukraine in April.

Friends from Moscow and comrades in arms, they were viewed by the separatists and by Kiev as Russia’s men. Their successive departures in the past two weeks may mark a turning point in a conflict which has dragged ties between Russia and the West to their lowest since the Cold War.

Among separatist ranks, the news has fueled fears that other Russian fighters may abandon the insurgency.

Interviews with rebel fighters and recorded conversations of rebel leaders provided by Ukrainian security services reveal a separatist movement struggling for survival against larger and better-equipped Ukrainian forces.

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Recent statements from Putin, or lack thereof, have indicated that he is getting ready to cut his losses.

Hopefully, he will not make the final blunder of moving any active troops into Ukraine, a mistake that would have some very severe consequences.

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Originally Posted by m>s

all one has to ask is this - who benefits?

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http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-hominem.html

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Originally Posted by Fallacy: Circumstantial Ad Hominem

A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy in which one attempts to attack a claim by asserting that the person making the claim is making it simply out of self interest. In some cases, this fallacy involves substituting an attack on a person's circumstances (such as the person's religion, political affiliation, ethnic background, etc.). The fallacy has the following forms:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B asserts that A makes claim X because it is in A's interest to claim X.
Therefore claim X is false.

A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy because a person's interests and circumstances have no bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made. While a person's interests will provide them with motives to support certain claims, the claims stand or fall on their own. It is also the case that a person's circumstances (religion, political affiliation, etc.) do not affect the truth or falsity of the claim.

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Ukraine benefits.

If, as implied, you are trying to say the NATO/Ukraine assertion that it was the separatists is false, simply because they benefit most, that is faulty reasoning as noted above.

Ultimately, the balance of available evidence supports this assertion, quite overwhelmingly.

Mark Paslavsky, American fighting in Donbas batallion has been killed in fighting for Ilovaysk.

Interview for VICE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4DpPr9xy5U

His twitter:

https://twitter.com/BSpringnote