Dieudonne arrested

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Originally Posted by ElNono

This is because France doesn't understand "freedom of speech" as 'Murica traditionally has. And I know exactly what lefty is saying. You're attributing an arbitrary 'intent' to the speech, but at the end of the day, it's just speech.

That's why in 'Murica, save very, very specific exceptions (like yelling 'fire' inside a theater, or 'bomb' inside an airport) it's not a crime for KKK agents or even Nazis to speak their minds.

Then again, they're different countries, with different constitutional values and laws. So it's perfectly fine for France to have their own set of rules.

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I understand the stance that these laws can be interpreted as an obstacle of freedom of speech but double standard would be an application different from a community to another which is not the case. Law defines exactly what we cannot do, Charlie hebdo never crossed the lines legally speaking in France.

Reading dudes deserved it because they were looking for trouble is sad because you are saying terrorists can dictate what you can do or not in your own country... You live in France, France has a set of rules if you don't like it get the fuck out this country...

First of all, don't assume just because an American is criticizing French anti-free-speech laws means that all Americans think we are the beacon of free speech. We have our own set of problems, which are quite similar to those of the French problems, when it comes to "free speech". That similarity is that speech is "free" when it is impugning minority or unpopular opinions, but unacceptable when criticizing the positions our governments take, especially when it comes to state-sanctioned violence.

Second of all, since nobody bothered to click on the Greenwald link, I'm going to paste the entire article here and ask where there is disagreement.

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Forty-eight hours after hosting a massive march under the banner of free expression, France opened a criminal investigation of a controversial French comedian for a Facebook post he wrote about the Charlie Hebdo attack, and then this morning, arrested him for that post on charges of “defending terrorism.” The comedian, Dieudonné (above), previously sought elective office in France on what he called an “anti-Zionist” platform, has had his show banned by numerous government officials in cities throughout France, and has been criminally prosecuted several times before for expressing ideas banned in that country.The apparently criminal viewpoint he posted on Facebook declared: “Tonight, as far as I’m concerned, I feel like Charlie Coulibaly.” Investigators concluded that this was intended to mock the “Je Suis Charlie” slogan and express support for the perpetrator of the Paris supermarket killings (whose last name was “Coulibaly”). Expressing that opinion is evidently a crime in the Republic of Liberté, which prides itself on a line of 20th Century intellectuals – from Sartre and Genet to Foucault and Derrida – whose hallmark was leaving no orthodoxy or convention unmolested, no matter how sacred.

Since that glorious “free speech” march, France has reportedly opened 54 criminal cases for “condoning terrorism.” AP reported this morning that “France ordered prosecutors around the country to crack down on hate speech, anti-Semitism and glorifying terrorism.”

As pernicious as this arrest and related “crackdown” on some speech obviously is, it provides a critical value: namely, it underscores the utter scam that was this week’s celebration of free speech in the west. The day before the Charlie Hebdo attack, I coincidentally documented the multiple cases in the west – including in the U.S. – where Muslims have been prosecuted and even imprisoned for their political speech. Vanishingly few of this week’s bold free expression mavens have ever uttered a peep of protest about any of those cases – either before the Charlie Hebdo attack or since. That’s because “free speech,” in the hands of many westerners, actually means: it is vital that the ideas I like be protected, and the right to offend groups I dislike be cherished; anything else is fair game.

It is certainly true that many of Dieudonné’s views and statements are noxious, although he and his supporters insist that they are “satire” and all in good humor. In that regard, the controversy they provoke is similar to the now-much-beloved Charlie Hebdo cartoons (one French leftist insists the cartoonists were mocking rather than adopting racism and bigotry, but Olivier Cyran, a former writer at the magazine who resigned in 2001, wrote a powerful 2013 letter with ample documentation condemning Charlie Hebdo for descending in the post-9/11 era into full-scale, obsessive anti-Muslim bigotry).

Despite the obvious threat to free speech posed by this arrest, it is inconceivable that any mainstream western media figures would start tweeting “#JeSuisDieudonné” or would upload photographs of themselves performing his ugly Nazi-evoking arm gesture in “solidarity” with his free speech rights. That’s true even if he were murdered for his ideas rather than “merely” arrested and prosecuted for them. That’s because last week’s celebration of the Hebdo cartoonists (well beyond mourning their horrifically unjust murders) was at least as much about approval for their anti-Muslim messages as it was about the free speech rights that were invoked in their support - at least as much.

https://prod01-cdn02.cdn.firstlook.o...d2-540x225.png

The vast bulk of the stirring “free speech” tributes over the last week have been little more than an attempt to protect and venerate speech that degrades disfavored groups while rendering off-limits speech that does the same to favored groups, all deceitfully masquerading as lofty principles of liberty. In response to my article containing anti-Jewish cartoons on Monday - which I posted to demonstrate the utter selectivity and inauthenticity of this newfound adoration of offensive speech - I was subjected to endless contortions justifying why anti-Muslim speech is perfectly great and noble while anti-Jewish speech is hideously offensive and evil (the most frequently invoked distinction – “Jews are a race/ethnicity while Muslims aren’t” – would come as a huge surprise to the world’s Asian, black, Latino and white Jews, as well as to those who identify as “Muslim” as part of their cultural identity even though they don’t pray five times a day). As always: it’s free speech if it involves ideas I like or attacks groups I dislike, but it’s something different when I’m the one who is offended.

Think about the “defending terrorism” criminal offense for which Dieudonné has been arrested. Should it really be a criminal offense – causing someone to be arrested, prosecuted and imprisoned – to say something along these lines: western countries like France have been bringing violence for so long to Muslims in their countries that I now believe it’s justifiable to bring violence to France as a means of making them stop? If you want “terrorism defenses” like that to be criminally prosecuted (as opposed to societally shunned), how about those who justify, cheer for and glorify the invasion and destruction of Iraq, with its “Shock and Awe” slogan signifying an intent to terrorize the civilian population into submission and itsmonstrous tactics in Fallujah? Or how about the psychotic calls from a Fox News host, when discussing Muslims radicals, to “kill them ALL.” Why is one view permissible and the other criminally barred – other than because the force of law is being used to control political discourse and one form of terrorism (violence in the Muslim world) is done by, rather than to, the west?

For those interested, my comprehensive argument against all “hate speech” laws and other attempts to exploit the law to police political discourse ishere. That essay, notably, was written to denounce a proposal by a French minister, Najat Vallaud-Belkacem, to force Twitter to work with the French government to delete tweets which officials like this minister (and future unknown ministers) deem “hateful.” France is about as legitimate a symbol of free expression as Charlie Hebdo, which fired one of its writers in 2009 for a single supposedly anti-Semitic sentence in the midst of publishing an orgy of anti-Muslim (not just anti-Islam) content. This week’s celebration of France – and the gaggle of tyrannical leaders who joined it – had little to do with free speech and much to do with suppressing ideas they dislike while venerating ideas they prefer.

Perhaps the most intellectually corrupted figure in this regard is, unsurprisingly, France’s most celebrated (and easily the world’s most overrated) public intellectual, the philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy. He demands criminal suppression of anything smacking of anti-Jewish views (he called for Dieudonné’s shows to be banned (“I don’t understand why anyone even sees the need for debate”) and supported the 2009 firing of the Charlie Hebdo writer for a speech offense against Jews), while shamelessly parading around all last week as the Churchillian champion of free expression when it comes to anti-Muslim cartoons.

But that, inevitably, is precisely the goal, and the effect, of laws that criminalize certain ideas and those who support such laws: to codify a system where the views they like are sanctified and the groups to which they belong protected. The views and groups they most dislike – and only them – are fair game for oppression and degradation.

The arrest of this French comedian so soon after the epic Paris free speech march underscores this point more powerfully than anything I could have written about the selectivity and fraud of this week’s “free speech” parade. It also shows – yet again – why those who want to criminalize the ideas they most dislike are at least as dangerous and tyrannical as the ideas they target: at least.

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Originally Posted by Splits

First of all, don't assume just because an American is criticizing French anti-free-speech laws means that all Americans think we are the beacon of free speech.

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I never said that. I responded to the people on this thread, never made any generalization.

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Originally Posted by Splits

Second of all, since nobody bothered to click on the Greenwald link, I'm going to paste the entire article here and ask where there is disagreement.

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This article is totally bogus... I don't even know where to start... to take one why author is talking about anti-muslim ? since when charlie is anti-muslim ? Charlie Hebdo is full 68's guys mostly communists, as such they don't like religions. That's a fact. If you think they are anti-muslim, say also they are anti-christian and anti-judaism. Calling them out over their anti-muslim side is dishonest.

Then I love the part on BH Levy... France's most celebrated public intellectual ? :lmao since when ? Dude is known in France because he fucks a French actress. He is getting his shit pushed on regularly. Using Levy saying he is kinda representative of French intellectuals is dishonest.

globally and I'm sorry this article is full of shit

Americans invented eugenics which was a cradle for Nazism, but the winners write the history books, right?

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Originally Posted by Brazil

I never said that. I responded to the people on this thread, never made any generalization.



This article is totally bogus... I don't even know where to start... to take one why author is talking about anti-muslim ? since when charlie is anti-muslim ? Charlie Hebdo is full 68's guys mostly communists, as such they don't like religions. That's a fact. If you think they are anti-muslim, say also they are anti-christian and anti-judaism. Calling them out over their anti-muslim side is dishonest.

Then I love the part on BH Levy... France's most celebrated public intellectual ? :lmao since when ? Dude is known in France because he fucks a French actress. He is getting his shit pushed on regularly. Using Levy saying he is kinda representative of French intellectuals is dishonest.

globally and I'm sorry this article is full of shit

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Cyran, the former writer, is the one who accused them of being overly fixated on anti-Muslim "satire":

http://posthypnotic.randomstatic.net...ticle%2011.htm

And you're seriously going to claim Levy isn't influential? Cmon, maybe "most celebrated" is a bit over the top but don't pretend he's a nobody, and it is true he's aligned with CH

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Originally Posted by Splits

Cyran, the former writer, is the one who accused them of being overly fixated on anti-Muslim "satire":

http://posthypnotic.randomstatic.net...ticle%2011.htm

And you're seriously going to claim Levy isn't influential? Cmon, maybe "most celebrated" is a bit over the top but don't pretend he's a nobody, and it is true he's aligned with CH

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yeah very former... he left in 2001, 14 years ago.... and apparently is quite salty. Dude left because he could not stand P. Val. In this article he is basically saying charlie became slowly anti-muslim after 9/11 which was after his departure.. so basically he is giving an outsider opinion and during his tenure Charlie was not racist ...:rolleyes

I did not say BHL is nobody, I used this example to show this article is dishonest with a big fat agenda. Dude is writting "Perhaps the most intellectually corrupted figure in this regard is, unsurprisingly, France’s most celebrated (and easily the world’s most overrated) public intellectual" this sentence is full of shit. He is not the most celebrated intellectual by far... plus he is one of the very few intellectual in France who is pro Israel (normal he is jew), "intellectuals philosopher" in France are usually from the left side of the political spectrum and mostly pro palestinian... so using BHL as being kinda representative of intellectuals in France is once again dishonest.

On a side note I love the unsurprisingly after most intellectually corrupted figue... what the message ? France loves corrupted figure ? just an overall very bad article

I think the Greenwald article is typical of its type - hyperbole and bias with limited fact checking and a lack of context. Brazil has addressed the intellectual piece. Greenwald is attempting a persuasive piece with limited structure and clearly limited research. Sadly this is reflective of the need for churn in the WWW newsfeeds. He alleges much, esp with the suggestion that the comic will go to jail etc. DD has been arrested, charged and will have his day in court to argue his case. The justice system will be open and he will have his chance to defend himself. The end. If nothing else it was in poor taste, unwise given his previous convictions for antisemitism and had no element of humour in it. So what was the purpose? Bit like lefty on this forum saying I support Jeffrey Dahmer!
I find it ironic who on this forum is railing about free speech in another country, esp given the context. I suggest that it reflects their personal biases as much as anything else.