Jamychal Green is a PF. Half our roster occupies 2 positions.

Maybe he worked on his shot. His release is still slow and his highlights are almost all back to the basket post scores. He doesn't seem to have the lateral quickness to guard the three IMO.

it's nice to get rid of Daye and take flyers on potential future prospects. But we now have 7 players to play PF/C and 4 players to play SG/SF. Cojo doesn't work in 2 PG lineups tbh, so unless Pop plans on playing Mills at SG a lot we have almost no insurance or minute eaters on the wing.

Obviously he's only on a 10 day so it's not a big deal. I just have serious doubts about his ability to be effective at the 3. Nothing that I've seen from him in Austin has suggested that he can be an effective wing on either end of the floor. If we have mostly a 3 big rotation in the playoffs, almost 1/3 of our roster is completely redundant.

Relax Pop was experimenting obviously in garbage minutes. Hopefully we can see the guy play meaningful minutes. Gonna reserve my judgement till then.

Our backup 3 is our starting 2.

Seemed to work last season.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Our backup 3 is our starting 2.

Seemed to work last season.

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Yes it worked for a reliably healthy Kawhi last season. It would be convenient to have another backup three this season.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpurPadre

Yes it worked for a reliably healthy Kawhi last season. It would be convenient to have another backup three this season.

---

If Kawhi isn't healthy it won't matter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

If Kawhi isn't healthy it won't matter.

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True but we can still keep him and Green fresh heading into the playoffs with a dependable true backup 3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpurPadre

True but we can still keep him and Green fresh heading into the playoffs with a dependable true backup 3.

---

They are at the age where that really doesn't matter yet. If you just want any shmoe out there wait for Marco to heal up.

I've seen enough of this scrub, package him with Beli, Ayers, and Bonner for an impact player and get Prince and AK-47 off waivers, maybe Daye too

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Splits

I've seen enough of this scrub, package him with Beli, Ayers, and Bonner for an impact player and get Prince and AK-47 off waivers, maybe Daye too

---

For the minimum, why not? Add in CoScrub too

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

They are at the age where that really doesn't matter yet. If you just want any shmoe out there wait for Marco to heal up.

---

Age isn't the factor, it's best ensuring Kawhi' s hand stays stable and D. Green isn't overworked.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpurPadre

Age isn't the factor, it's best ensuring Kawhi' s hand stays stable and D. Green isn't overworked.

---

Monitoring minutes does nothing for the hand and Danny is playing 32 mpg so far.

I'd worry more about resting the older players at this point, especially Duncan. He's playing as much as Danny.

People giving up on Jamaychal Green after 6 minutes... hilarious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 100%duncan

For the minimum, why not? Add in CoScrub too

---

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=p2e7or3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Monitoring minutes does nothing for the hand and Danny is playing 32 mpg so far.

I'd worry more about resting the older players at this point, especially Duncan. He's playing as much as Danny.

---

Yah minutes dont matter much when you are at your physical prime (danny whi). Hopefully Beli comes back and becomes his old self so that we can rest Td and Manu and still win games like last year

Don't get me wrong -- if J Green doesn't work out I'd love to give a guy like Fuquan Edwin a go. But that wouldn't really make much of a difference either for this season.

Getting all the 1-13 guys healthy is what will make this season work more than anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Our backup 3 is our starting 2.

Seemed to work last season.

---

When you're up 25 against a team shooting 30% with 8 minutes to go, having any hyper important piece (Green, Diaw, Slpitter, Kawhi) on the floor is just retarded. You should have minute eaters on the wing and not have to play 3 PFs and a C in garbage time.

We're 1 bad fall from like 6 players away from our season being over. You're contradicting yourself if you think that we don't need a minute eater at the wing but also that a Kawhi injury would end our season.

I'm all for dropping Daye for a SG/SF and dropping Ayres for green. But our current roster makeup is unique in the league and not in a good way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr Bones

People giving up on Jamaychal Green after 6 minutes... hilarious.

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:lol I live in Austin. I've seen him play. Some of us watch summer league and Dleague games.

see you in April!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by benstanfield

When you're up 25 against a team shooting 30% with 8 minutes to go, having any hyper important piece (Green, Diaw, Slpitter, Kawhi) on the floor is just retarded. You should have minute eaters on the wing and not have to play 3 PFs and a C in garbage time.

---

Why not?


It's garbage time. That's precisely the occasion for lineups like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by benstanfield

We're 1 bad fall from like 6 players away from our season being over. You're contradicting yourself if you think that we don't need a minute eater at the wing but also that a Kawhi injury would end our season.

---

Of course an injury could end the Spurs' season.

So what?

It's not like Kawhi's injuries have come from overuse.

not surprised, Daye is the far better player.

Splitter missed a training camp and Pop kept out almost all season

how long was JGreen in training camp?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Why not?


It's garbage time. That's precisely the occasion for lineups like that.

---

Not really. That lineup was horseshit and got beaten badly by the equivalent Jazz lineup. That severely limits when you can actually play the victory cigar lineup. Up by 12 with 4 minutes left? Better play our most important players 4 more minutes.

if you want to tell me that playing the most important players ~100 extra minutes each this season doesn't increase their chances of injury then :downspin:

It was bizarre watching Cory and 4 PFs playing out the string against Utah. One ballhandler generally doesn't work for this offense, and true to form, Utah cut about 10 points off our lead. Kyle should have been in the mix there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by benstanfield

Not really. That lineup was horseshit and got beaten badly by the equivalent Jazz lineup. That severely limits when you can actually play the victory cigar lineup. Up by 12 with 4 minutes left? Better play our most important players 4 more minutes.

---

Not the whole four if the lead sticks -- and that kind of lead is hardly garbage time. The lead tonight was. Are you sure you've been watching the San Antonio Spurs?

Quote:

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if you want to tell me that playing the most important players ~100 extra minutes each this season doesn't increase their chances of injury then :downspin:

---

They've already had to play more because of injuries. That's what happens in the NBA.

Prove to me Kawai's injuries have been from overuse and I will conceded this entire thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by benstanfield

Maybe he worked on his shot. His release is still slow and his highlights are almost all back to the basket post scores. He doesn't seem to have the lateral quickness to guard the three IMO.

it's nice to get rid of Daye and take flyers on potential future prospects. But we now have 7 players to play PF/C and 4 players to play SG/SF. Cojo doesn't work in 2 PG lineups tbh, so unless Pop plans on playing Mills at SG a lot we have almost no insurance or minute eaters on the wing.

Obviously he's only on a 10 day so it's not a big deal. I just have serious doubts about his ability to be effective at the 3. Nothing that I've seen from him in Austin has suggested that he can be an effective wing on either end of the floor. If we have mostly a 3 big rotation in the playoffs, almost 1/3 of our roster is completely redundant.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by benstanfield

When you're up 25 against a team shooting 30% with 8 minutes to go, having any hyper important piece (Green, Diaw, Slpitter, Kawhi) on the floor is just retarded. You should have minute eaters on the wing and not have to play 3 PFs and a C in garbage time.

---

Excellent points. As I've been saying for the longest time, I don't get the obsession this front office has with having such an imbalanced roster. We've seen it for years and at various positions.

If Green shows even a shred of promise in the 20 days (obviously, I'm presuming they'll automatically give him a second 10, unless he looks beyond terrible), then they need to trade or buyout Ayres post deadline. Between Duncan's age, Splitter's lack of durability and the fact that Baynes hadn't shown himself to be anything more than a fringe player entering this season, they can somewhat rationalize having four C's for the majority of the season. But at that point, the majority of the games will be in the rear view.

Besides, as we've seen once again, having another wing defender with size is far more of a need, particularly due to Leonard's own lack of durability. I'd be fine taking a flyer on a fringe prospect like Franklin or even on a vet on his last legs, like Garcia. Anything to balance this mess out.

Just get Marco healthy.

Balance returns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Not the whole four if the lead sticks -- and that kind of lead is hardly garbage time. The lead tonight was. Are you sure you've been watching the San Antonio Spurs?

They've already had to play more because of injuries. That's what happens in the NBA.

Prove to me Kawai's injuries have been from overuse and I will conceded this entire thread.

---

:lol
My thread. I don't give a shit about your goalposts. If you think Kawhi, Danny, and Boris should be on the court when up by 20+ with 7 minutes to go that's on you. Thibs school of lineup management.

:lol Arguing peripheral points and not my actual argument. Make it up by 15 with 4 to go. The lineup we played still would've lost most of that.

:sleep Crazy how rotation management changes when you are healthy vs missing 3-4 players

Quote:

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Originally Posted by benstanfield

:lol
My thread. I don't give a shit about your goalposts. If you think Kawhi, Danny, and Boris should be on the court when up by 20+ with 7 minutes to go that's on you. Thibs school of lineup management.

---

I think outside the injuries, the minutes have been OK. Getting upset about tonight is laughable.

Quote:

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:lol Arguing peripheral points and not my actual argument. Make it up by 15 with 4 to go. The lineup we played still would've lost most of that.

---

Probably not. Feel free to look up all the past lineups if it's important to you.

Quote:

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:sleep Crazy how rotation management changes when your are healthy vs missing 3-4 players

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So you aren't really arguing anything. Just wait til everyone is healthy again like i told you and don't lose your shit over blowout wins.

I thought he looked fine. It's his first game and he is trying to feel things out. Still an upgrade over Ayres.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by benstanfield

Maybe he worked on his shot. His release is still slow and his highlights are almost all back to the basket post scores. He doesn't seem to have the lateral quickness to guard the three IMO.

it's nice to get rid of Daye and take flyers on potential future prospects. But we now have 7 players to play PF/C and 4 players to play SG/SF. Cojo doesn't work in 2 PG lineups tbh, so unless Pop plans on playing Mills at SG a lot we have almost no insurance or minute eaters on the wing.

Obviously he's only on a 10 day so it's not a big deal. I just have serious doubts about his ability to be effective at the 3. Nothing that I've seen from him in Austin has suggested that he can be an effective wing on either end of the floor. If we have mostly a 3 big rotation in the playoffs, almost 1/3 of our roster is completely redundant.

---

I think the playoff rotation at this point is pretty much set. The Spurs are now going through the garbage bin and trying out talent to see if anybody can eat some mins at the wing. Daye was a lost cause, now we move onto Green.

I just get the feeling the Spurs don't really want to spend much in that area, because whoever they bring will definitely not be in the playoff rotation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Just get Marco healthy.

Balance returns.

---

it's not a coincidence that we are playing our best ball now that he is not healthy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raven

it's not a coincidence that we are aplying our best ball now that he is not healthy.

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That would have more to do with Kawhi, but nice to see you stick with your agenda to the death.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

That would have more to do with Kawhi, but nice to see you stick with your agenda to the death.

---

we were not playing this good at the start of the season and will not play as good when he'll be back if he'll play meaningful minutes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Just get Marco healthy.

Balance returns.

---

No, it doesn't. They'll still have 7 bigs, only one true SF and an active roster that features six bigs, four wings and three PG's. That makes no sense whatsoever, particularly for a team so obsessed with managing minutes, that racks up a lot of blowout wins when healthy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I think the playoff rotation at this point is pretty much set. The Spurs are now going through the garbage bin and trying out talent to see if anybody can eat some mins at the wing. Daye was a lost cause, now we move onto Green.

I just get the feeling the Spurs don't really want to spend much in that area, because whoever they bring will definitely not be in the playoff rotation.

---

It is. We all know the top eight is set and Baynes vs Bonner and Belinelli vs Joseph will be situational. But this isn't about that. It's about, as benstanfield said, having another body to eat minutes on the wing and insurance for Leonard.

Fringe types such as Franklin, Garcia, etc., cost virtually nothing. They'll owe them nothing more than a prorated amount of their minimum, which is based on their experience time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raven

we were not playing this good at the start of the season and will not play as good when he'll be back if he'll play meaningful minutes.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

nice to see you stick with your agenda to the death.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TD 21

No, it doesn't. They'll still have 7 bigs, only one true SF and an active roster that features six bigs, four wings and three PG's. That makes no sense whatsoever, particularly for a team so obsessed with managing minutes, that racks up a lot of blowout wins when healthy.

---

So it will be like last season?

I'm OK with that tbh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TD 21

It is. We all know the top eight is set and Baynes vs Bonner and Belinelli vs Joseph will be situational. But this isn't about that. It's about, as benstanfield said, having another body to eat minutes on the wing and insurance for Leonard.

Fringe types such as Franklin, Garcia, etc., cost virtually nothing. They'll owe them nothing more than a prorated amount of their minimum, which is based on their experience time.

---

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think if the Spurs wanted to just pay a player which is a well known fringe talent, they would've kept Daye, which was on a reasonable deal. Calling up from the DLeague gives them an opportunity to luck out in talent they might be able to work with longer term, plus I suspect they're getting reports from the affiliate on which prospects might be a good fit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElNono

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think if the Spurs wanted to just pay a player which is a well known fringe talent, they would've kept Daye, which was on a reasonable deal. Calling up from the DLeague gives them an opportunity to luck out in talent they might be able to work with longer term, plus I suspect they're getting reports from the affiliate on which prospects might be a good fit.

---

Plus, if they want to suit up a group that includes 5 bigs, 5 wings, and 3 PGs they just need to sit 2 of the 7 bigs and dress Anderson. (When all 15 players are healthy)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

So it will be like last season?

I'm OK with that tbh.

---

Explain to me how seven bigs and one true SF makes sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElNono

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think if the Spurs wanted to just pay a player which is a well known fringe talent, they would've kept Daye, which was on a reasonable deal. Calling up from the DLeague gives them an opportunity to luck out in talent they might be able to work with longer term, plus I suspect they're getting reports from the affiliate on which prospects might be a good fit.

---

Nah, I think they wanted to have the flexibility to look at a D-Leaguer or two and then at the end of the regular season, like they've done in recent seasons, they'll settle on a veteran wing (unless Green blows them away) for insurance purposes.

With Daye, clearly they wanted to see if he could be Bonner's replacement. They obviously came to the conclusion that he couldn't, so at this point, he was just filler. Besides, two non athletic forwards, with no true defensive position, is poor use of roster space, especially for the team that values every last spot more than any other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TD 21

Explain to me how seven bigs and one true SF makes sense.

---

Explain to me how last season was a failure with the same lineup.

I was OK with last season.

Were you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Explain to me how last season was a failure with the same lineup.

I was OK with last season.

Were you?

---

The question is whether it would make sense to have a more balanced roster, not whether last season was a success or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TD 21

The question is whether is would make sense to have a more balanced roster, not whether last season was a success or not.

---

Did last season's roster make sense to you?

Yes or no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TD 21

Nah, I think they wanted to have the flexibility to look at a D-Leaguer or two and then at the end of the regular season, like they've done in recent seasons, they'll settle on a veteran wing (unless Green blows them away) for insurance purposes.

With Daye, clearly they wanted to see if he could be Bonner's replacement. They obviously came to the conclusion that he couldn't, so at this point, he was just filler. Besides, two non athletic forwards, with no true defensive position, is poor use of roster space, especially for the team that values every last spot more than any other.

---

I think they were perfectly willing to roll with DeColo last season, until he asked to be traded. Not even sure they targeted Daye at all, they just took a flyer on him in return for DeColo, so it wasn't all that surprising he was waived (although I thought they would do it over the summer). Prince might be a guy they could take a flyer on, due to the Larry Brown connection, but outside of that, I don't expect them to make any moves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Did last season's roster make sense to you?

Yes or no.

---

Would it make sense to have a more balanced roster?

Yes or no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TD 21

Would it make sense to have a more balanced roster?

Yes or no.

---

Probably won't make any difference. Just like last year.

So ultimately, just for the sake of doing it -- no.

Did last season's roster make sense to you?

Yes or no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElNono

I think they were perfectly willing to roll with DeColo last season, until he asked to be traded. Not even sure they targeted Daye at all, they just took a flyer on him in return for DeColo, so it wasn't all that surprising he was waived (although I thought they would do it over the summer). Prince might be a guy they could take a flyer on, due to the Larry Brown connection, but outside of that, I don't expect them to make any moves.

---

Prince is Clippers bound, once the Celtics realize that no one is giving up a thing for him and buy him out. He's from LA, Rivers loves players who were good 5 years ago in the East and they have a gaping hole at SF.

I suspect the Spurs will add insurance of some kind, but probably not until the final few days of the regular season.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Probably won't make any difference. Just like last year.

So ultimately, just for the sake of doing it -- no.

Did last season's roster make sense to you?

Yes or no.

---

What does last season have to do with this one? And just because it all worked out in the end, it doesn't mean they did everything right.

The back end of last season's roster never made any sense, championship or not.

I think unless they have lost all confidence in Marco, they will roll with what they have and eventually stick with one of the audition players into next season.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TD 21

What does last season have to do with this one? And just because it all worked out in the end, it doesn't mean they did everything right.

The back end of last season's roster never made any sense, championship or not.

---

So you didn't think last season's roster made any sense at all and the Spurs still won a championship in dominating fashion in spite of your protest and judgment.

This is why I am OK with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

So you didn't think last season's roster made any sense at all and the Spurs still won a championship in dominating fashion in spite of your protest and judgment.

This is why I am OK with it.

---

Your lack of basic reading comprehension never seizes to amaze, nor your bizarre obsession with apologizing for the front office.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TD 21

Your lack of basic reading comprehension never seizes to amaze

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You said it didn't make sense. Don't get pissy about it now.

Quote:

---

nor your bizarre obsession with apologizing for the front office.

---

I just know they are better at basketball than you.

What a truly black name

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

You said it didn't make sense. Don't get pissy about it now.I just know they are better at basketball than you.

---

Yeah, the back end of the roster, genius.

So they never do anything that doesn't make sense?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TD 21

Yeah, the back end of the roster, genius.

---

Exactly, genius.

Quote:

---

So they never do anything that doesn't make sense?

---

I doubt they post double negatives. Those tend to confuse meaning.

In a pinch, Manu is the back up SF: http://www.82games.com/1415/14SAS5.HTM

And so is Diaw: http://www.82games.com/1415/14SAS9.HTM

Both of them are better now than Tayshaun Prince or Francisco Garcia, so there you have it.

When Marco returns, they have three options. I think they're good.

Danny Green also often guards small forwards: http://www.82games.com/1415/14SAS6.HTM

That's four options after Kawhi, the best option at the position.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven

not surprised, Daye is the far better player.

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Good GOD that is not saying much them. Daye being far better than anyone means you pretty much are a grade A scrub.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sean Cagney

Good GOD that is not saying much them. Daye being far better than anyone means you pretty much are a grade A scrub.

---

meh, he is also a far better fit, i mean green's best quality is his athleticism, but we never go for offensive boards anyway and we have no use for an undersized pf imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven

meh, he is also a far better fit, i mean green's best quality is his athleticism, but we never go for offensive boards anyway and we have no use for an undersized pf imo.

---

Neither one was going to make a difference or get minutes in the playoffs so it's a wash IMO. I agree with you though on the second part.

I hope the Spurs are aware of this conundrum

Fortunately, they are the only ones who can do anything about it

Belinelli is the minutes eater, and if NEED be, we have Kyle Anderson, I'm not concerned at all about this, and for the life of me, I cant see why you guys are either.

This is why cutting daye instead of ayers was so perplexing.

Parker/cojo/mills
Green/manu/beli
Kawhi/daye
Diaw/anderson/green/ayers
Timmy/tiago/baynes/ayers

Daye or ayers?
Niether, Glen Rice Jr!

Ayres and J.Green bring the same skill sets to the table. Ayres though can't shoot a mid range jumper, he was expected to be able to do but that has been proven to be a false assumption. He knows the offense much better.

Green has more talent. It is going to take more than 2 10 day contracts to incorporate Green in the offense. There's just no time for him to also figure out how the offense works.

Based on his twitter posts, he sounds like a humble guy with daily concerns quite different from the more flashy Austin Daye.

Guys like Anderson, Cojo and Green hanged out with Daye due to similarities in background. J.Green comes from a dirt poor background, and I don't know exactly how he fits with any other Spurs player.

So lots of questions that'll take more than 20 days to figure out.

He was signed probably to have an extra body to guard bigger athletic players. Without Leonard on the floor, there's just not enough size and quickness at the SF.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrunkTXLabrat

This is why cutting daye instead of ayers was so perplexing.

---

Has to do with money. Baynes provides the same role a Ayres, just bigger and more intimidating.

Who knows, Spurs might just dump Ayres for Bryce Cotton. Yes, another guard, but at this end of the bench, it is all projects. Besides, the Spurs have Bertrans and Livo as potential SF players.

You know what's funny? Ayres has been an ORtg/DRtg monster for most of his career! This year, He's at 117/102. In theory-- especially to advanced metrics followers-- he's the perfect bench player. Interestingly though, no one at Spurstalk who uses any statistical argument in the ever ongoing Parker/Manu/Mills/Cojo/Belinelli debate ever chooses to bring up Aryes' glittering numbers here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...pendeje02.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

If Kawhi isn't healthy it won't matter.

---

Exactly. Do you remember the minutes Tim played when he was young. Compared to that Kawhi is getting tons of rest.

Does anyone remember Boris Diaw guarding LeBron for limited stretches in the finals? It was an unconventional experiment that worked relatively well. Boris is an unconventional player, so I think it's wrong to categorize him strictly as a "big." And I think the SG and SF positions have in some ways melted together into the Swing position. Looking at it this way, the Spurs have 7 guys capable of filling the slot: Kawhi, Manu, D. Green, Marco, Boris, Anderson, and now J. Green.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr Bones

You know what's funny? Ayres has been an ORtg/DRtg monster for most of his career! This year, He's at 117/102. In theory-- especially to advanced metrics followers-- he's the perfect bench player. Interestingly though, no one at Spurstalk who uses any statistical argument in the ever ongoing Parker/Manu/Mills/Cojo/Belinelli debate ever chooses to bring up Aryes' glittering numbers here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...pendeje02.html

---

He does have surprisingly good Ortg/Drtg and it has been fairly consistent throughout his career. That being said it is a rather small sample size in comparison to other players, for instance this season he and Patty have played about the same number of minutes (despite Patty missing the first 2 months), and Patty has 3500 career minutes with one additional year in the league vs 2000 for Ayres. Its also telling that Ayres has a negative real plus-minus which shows that his metrics aren't fully translating onto the court.

That being said, the biggest argument against Ayres (like bonner before him) is that he doesn't pass the eye test. Its hard to overcome perception when it continually slaps you in the face as it babbles the ball during a wide open layup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andthentherewas21

He does have surprisingly good Ortg/Drtg and it has been fairly consistent throughout his career. That being said it is a rather small sample size in comparison to other players, for instance this season he and Patty have played about the same number of minutes (despite Patty missing the first 2 months), and Patty has 3500 career minutes with one additional year in the league vs 2000 for Ayres. Its also telling that Ayres has a negative real plus-minus which shows that his metrics aren't fully translating onto the court.

That being said, the biggest argument against Ayres (like bonner before him) is that he doesn't pass the eye test. Its hard to overcome perception when it continually slaps you in the face as it babbles the ball during a wide open layup.

---

You use a word and a phrase that I think are very insightful. My contention for a long time has been that stats are not "facts" that show a player's usefulness, but "translations" of his usefulness. Translations have a good correlation to the facts, but there are almost always glitches & blind spots in them. They're a means to an end, but not an end in themselves. One proof of this for me is the fact that most advanced metrics people no longer regard FG% as very important, and definitely less important than TS%. But FG% is a stat. So advanced metrics people are saying some stats are not necessarily accurate...

The eye test thing is what I would use in favor of Parker at PG: last year, his advanced metrics were not too impressive, but the Spurs finished with the best record in the NBA and the Championship trophy. The eye test says the Spurs were a pretty successful unit with Parker as a starter and Mills off the bench.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr Bones

You use a word and a phrase that I think are very insightful. My contention for a long time has been that stats are not "facts" that show a player's usefulness, but "translations" of his usefulness. Translations have a good correlation to the facts, but there are almost always glitches & blind spots in them. They're a means to an end, but not an end in themselves. One proof of this for me is the fact that most advanced metrics people no longer regard FG% as very important, and definitely less important than TS%. But FG% is a stat. So advanced metrics people are saying some stats are not necessarily accurate...

The eye test thing is what I would use in favor of Parker at PG: last year, his advanced metrics were not too impressive, but the Spurs finished with the best record in the NBA and the Championship trophy. The eye test says the Spurs were a pretty successful unit with Parker as a starter and Mills off the bench.

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There's a big difference in the accuracy of the stats when you compare someone like Parker who plays a lot of minutes and Ayres who plays sparingly. I wouldn't have too much confidence in the stats for Ayres, he barely plays and when he does, a lot of time its garbage time against inferior opponents. End of bench players are evaluated more on how they play in practice rather than the limited time they are on the court. There just isn't enough sample points in game-time situation for guys like Ayres.

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Originally Posted by ceperez

There's a big difference in the accuracy of the stats when you compare someone like Parker who plays a lot of minutes and Ayres who plays sparingly. I wouldn't have too much confidence in the stats for Ayres, he barely plays and when he does, a lot of time its garbage time against inferior opponents. End of bench players are evaluated more on how they play in practice rather than the limited time they are on the court. There just isn't enough sample points in game-time situation for guys like Ayres.

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But I think the same can be said of a comparison between Parker's stats and Patty's stats. The temptation is to say they are both listed as PGs, so their stats can be put side by side and evaluated... I don't think this is true. For example, if you compare the stat of turnovers between the two, you might say that Tony is more turnover prone because his TO per 36 min & TO per 100 possessions are higher than Mills's. But Tony always plays PG when he's on the floor and almost always brings the ball up. Mills is usually paired with Manu, who more often than not is handling the typical PG responsibilities, and as a result has an even higher turnover rate than either Tony or Patty. In addition to that, Parker is often paired with Danny Green, who's the least talented ball handler of the four players mentioned. So a straight up comparison of turnovers between Parker and Mills using the stats isn't really relevant. If you paired Mills exclusively with Green, his turnovers would most likely skyrocket. That's where stats get misused or misinterpreted. The impact of who you're on the court with exerts an unreasonable influence on some advanced stats. Kevin Love is a good example: last year, his ORtg/DRtg was 120/104. This year, with totally different teammates, it's 114/107. His VORP last year was 7.0-- this year it's 2.2. Kevin Love hasn't changed in any significant way. What has changed is what's around him.

We didn't start winning anything till we got a starting quality SF. SF is one of the most important positions.

Holy shit, this is super scary. How could Pop make such an obvious mistake. Does anybody have his number? We should text him ASAP

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Originally Posted by Mr Bones

But I think the same can be said of a comparison between Parker's stats and Patty's stats. The temptation is to say they are both listed as PGs, so their stats can be put side by side and evaluated... I don't think this is true. For example, if you compare the stat of turnovers between the two, you might say that Tony is more turnover prone because his TO per 36 min & TO per 100 possessions are higher than Mills's. But Tony always plays PG when he's on the floor and almost always brings the ball up. Mills is usually paired with Manu, who more often than not is handling the typical PG responsibilities, and as a result has an even higher turnover rate than either Tony or Patty. In addition to that, Parker is often paired with Danny Green, who's the least talented ball handler of the four players mentioned. So a straight up comparison of turnovers between Parker and Mills using the stats isn't really relevant. If you paired Mills exclusively with Green, his turnovers would most likely skyrocket. That's where stats get misused or misinterpreted. The impact of who you're on the court with exerts an unreasonable influence on some advanced stats. Kevin Love is a good example: last year, his ORtg/DRtg was 120/104. This year, with totally different teammates, it's 114/107. His VORP last year was 7.0-- this year it's 2.2. Kevin Love hasn't changed in any significant way. What has changed is what's around him.

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Patty plays a decent amount of minutes against quality opponents during critical stretches. So his stats are a good basis of comparison to Tony's. All I am saying is the stats of scrubs like Ayres isn't a useful metric given the low usage rate.

I agree though that it depends on the players main responsibilities. Yes, most Spurs stats are low because of the system they play in.

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Originally Posted by DrunkTXLabrat

Parker/cojo/mills
Green/manu/beli
Kawhi/daye
Diaw/anderson/bonner/green
Timmy/tiago/baynes/ayers

Daye or ayers?
Niether, Glen Rice Jr!

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oh and Bonner, get rid of Bonner for Brandon Davies.

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Originally Posted by Mr Bones

You know what's funny? Ayres has been an ORtg/DRtg monster for most of his career! This year, He's at 117/102. In theory-- especially to advanced metrics followers-- he's the perfect bench player. Interestingly though, no one at Spurstalk who uses any statistical argument in the ever ongoing Parker/Manu/Mills/Cojo/Belinelli debate ever chooses to bring up Aryes' glittering numbers here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pendej02.html

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Subtle.