Leonard the ball stopper

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Originally Posted by FkLA

Yeah bc allowing him to spread his wings is costing the Spurs wins...

5-1 since his return and the only reason the Bulls game was close in the first half was bc of Kawhis isos.

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4-1*
Blazers, W
Jazz, W <--- lol
Nuggets, W <--- lol
Bulls, L
Lakers, W <--- lol

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Originally Posted by Hoops Czar

No, I said he is primarily a defender. If he gives the Spurs offense, then, it's a bonus. With his shooting %'s of 36% beyond 5 ft (That's Corey Brewer territory), I can see why he gets overlooked so often. There are posters here who feel he should be the #1 option and the dead head starting at point needs to recognize and witness the miracle at SF. "Leonard's not getting enough touches." The Spurs are losing because TP is ignoring Leonard in the corner." I'm saying his offense is a product of the system and it's highly inefficient at this point in his career. That may change down the line but, that's not the case now. Those guys you mentioned are basically role players with the possible exceptions of *2015 Klay Thompson and *2015 Jimmy Butler. I really thought we were talking about "one of the best players in the game." There's suppose to be a big difference between Leonard and the guys you mentioned. Would you consider trading Leonard for any of those players mentioned?

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What a liar....

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Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

What a liar....

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Mainstream player fan

Many people wanted Kwahi to shoot more. I'm not sure he is ready to be a true shooter, but he is definitely taking control of the offense and the ball in order to shoot.

This isn't the Beautiful Game that won the 5th title. It will be interesting to see if Pop is on board with this youngster taking over the offense after he encouraged him to shoot more.

Kawhi let the Lakers win the third quarter!

!

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Originally Posted by wildbill2u

Many people wanted Kwahi to shoot more. I'm not sure he is ready to be a true shooter, but he is definitely taking control of the offense and the ball in order to shoot.

This isn't the Beautiful Game that won the 5th title. It will be interesting to see if Pop is on board with this youngster taking over the offense after he encouraged him to shoot more.

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More and more people are beginning to note this.

Question is, will Kawhi?

Last game tp hit a wide open teammate 5-8 times and they missed the shots
Had they made half he would have 4 more assist
Also he hit players that were fouled and got free throws but no assist
Stats do not provide the whole story

Try watching the games

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Originally Posted by ducks

Last game tp hit a wide open teammate 5-8 times and they missed the shots
Had they made half he would have 4 more assist
Also he hit players that were fouled and got free throws but no assist
Stats do not provide the whole story

Try watching the games

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'

Nice try. This logic only works with Kiwi.

Personally I have no problem with Parker on offense, occasionally he'll keep the ball too long and he hasn't been as good as previous seasons but if he's capable of coming even close to his previous offensive production then he'll be worth playing. His defense is an issue though but maybe it's just me but he looks like he has improved from earlier in the season (still not a good defender but just needs to not be another black hole like Marco).

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Originally Posted by Hoops Czar

32,000 + posts and none the wiser. You're the last person that should be dogging someone about basketball takes. Leonard generates offense with his defense. He's rarely able to create offense for himself and his passing is nothing to write home about. He's your prototypical, no-nonsense jump shooter shooting at a career low 45% from 2 and 33% from 3. 68% of lay ups, 82% of his dunks, and 68% of his jump shots come via the assist. The so-called number one option needs some passing guards to get him involved in the offense because he can rarely generate offense for himself. No wonder Kiwi backers want Parker's head on a swivel. A guy like Leonard, full of athleticism, should be demanding the ball and taking it to the basket on every possession, not settling for mid range jumpers, in which he's shooting a robust 37% from beyond 5 ft (89-237 ... 18/52 34%, 4th Q/OT) That's Corey Brewer territory.. Most of his J-shots beyond the arc come via penetration from Parker/Ginobili/Mills/Joseph and he only cans 33% of those wide open J's. Heck, If I was playing pg and knew those numbers beforehand and didn't see Leonard underneath the basket, I'd look the other way too.

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Whew that nuke

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Originally Posted by rasuo214

Personally I have no problem with Parker on offense, occasionally he'll keep the ball too long and he hasn't been as good as previous seasons but if he's capable of coming even close to his previous offensive production then he'll be worth playing. His defense is an issue though but maybe it's just me but he looks like he has improved from earlier in the season (still not a good defender but just needs to not be another black hole like Marco).

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He's never been a great defender but he's been pretty bad these last couple of years. Mostly due to him being screened off his man so easily.

God, it's cute that Hoops Czar tried to drop numbers to support himself for once, but wow, inaccurate numbers and random criteria

1. Says Leonard is a poor shooter outside of 5-feet(which is a really specific criteria:lol), but then says Leonard is a product of the Spurs system(the system that has usually relegated him to spot-up shooting the past 2 years)..makes a lot of sense:lol..

Kawhi's game isn't suited for the Spurs system, which even Pop has said..the SF position for the Spurs system makes it much more difficult for Leonard, just like we saw with Richard Jefferson..it's a guard-oriented system, as we're seeing in Atlanta, where Teague is putting up Parker numbers..

2. Says Leonard is inefficient..60% True Shooting in 2014, 59.2% in 2013..ridiculous efficiency, one of the most efficient players in the NBA

3. Says Leonard can't create because 63% of his shots are assisted..well, I already provided the list of all the key SFs in the NBA outside of Lebron/Carmelo/Durant..not to mention he was one of the 3-5 best post-up players in the NBA the past 2 years according to Synergy..overall, 2nd best half-court offense creator for the Spurs the past 2 years, too

4. Says Leonard doesn't have an impact on offense..3rd best offensive on/off metrics on the team the past 2 seasons behind Manu and Mills

5. Says Leonard should take the ball and drive on every possession, ignoring that the Spurs system doesn't work that way and that Duncan/Splitter clog the lane..not that he would know this, but Leonard's numbers skyrocket when he plays with Diaw/Splitter or Duncan/Diaw, rather than Duncan/Splitter, too

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Originally Posted by Hoops Czar

No, I said he is primarily a defender. If he gives the Spurs offense, then, it's a bonus. With his shooting %'s of 36% beyond 5 ft (That's Corey Brewer territory), I can see why he gets overlooked so often. There are posters here who feel he should be the #1 option and the dead head starting at point needs to recognize and witness the miracle at SF. "Leonard's not getting enough touches." The Spurs are losing because TP is ignoring Leonard in the corner." I'm saying his offense is a product of the system and it's highly inefficient at this point in his career. That may change down the line but, that's not the case now. Those guys you mentioned are basically role players with the possible exceptions of *2015 Klay Thompson and *2015 Jimmy Butler. I really thought we were talking about "one of the best players in the game." There's suppose to be a big difference between Leonard and the guys you mentioned. Would you consider trading Leonard for any of those players mentioned?

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:lol 1. Corey Brewer's career TS% is 50..Leonard's is 58%, so far..nice comparison, not to mention the massive disparity in assisted % of shots

2. You keep moving the goal posts..first, you said Leonard can't create because 63% of his shots are assisted..I showed you the list of SFs in the NBA, now you're essentially changing your argument to "Leonard should be like Lebron/Durant/Carmelo"

Nobody has said that Kawhi is on the level of those players as an offensive creator..even if he was, the Spurs' system isn't built that way

3. None of the players I mentioned are role players..they're all top 3 offensive contributors to their team at the SF position..Klay Thompson and Jimmy Butler are top 2 options on their teams

4. Leonard is a better player than all of the guys I mentioned, because there's more to the game than your definition of creating offense:lol..that doesn't have anything to do with your argument

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Originally Posted by Malik Hairston

:lol 1. Corey Brewer's career TS% is 50..Leonard's is 58%, so far..nice comparison, not to mention the massive disparity in assisted % of shots

2. You keep moving the goal posts..first, you said Leonard can't create because 63% of his shots are assisted..I showed you the list of SFs in the NBA, now you're essentially changing your argument to "Leonard should be like Lebron/Durant/Carmelo"

Nobody has said that Kawhi is on the level of those players as an offensive creator..even if he was, the Spurs' system isn't built that way

3. None of the players I mentioned are role players..they're all top 3 offensive contributors to their team at the SF position..Klay Thompson and Jimmy Butler are top 2 options on their teams

4. Leonard is a better player than all of the guys I mentioned, because there's more to the game than your definition of creating offense:lol..that doesn't have anything to do with your argument

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First off, you showed me a a list of SF's, half of which you called overrated. Now, you're using them in an argument to thwart off Kiwi's ineptitude on offense primarily because it fits into your so-called narrative. I'm not the one with the convoluted connotations but, you and your obvious troll handles on the other hand. :lmao My projections of Leonard have remained steadfast that he'll be no better than a prime Shawn Marion. However, "He shut down the best player on the planet in the finals, therefore, he must be among the best." The Spurs will need to surround Kiwi with a strong supporting cast in the future if this team has expectations when Duncan and Ginobili retire.

Yes, Leonard does a wonderful job bumping up his true shooting % with layups and slam dunks which he does roughly 28% (55-87/67%) of the time. Unfortunately, that leaves 82% of his shots outside of 5 ft , in which he continues to shoot a low % (36%). Doesn't Pop realize that works against Kiwi? :lol I'm not buying the whole Duncan and Splitter clogging the paint argument because that wasn't such the case in last year's finals. "The Spurs concept of team basketball was the best in NBA history." You don't need to be a stat hound to see how poor of a shooter Leonard is this year. If you're prerogative is to compare him to a bunch of pure shooting SF's, then you have at it but the said players you quoted above are basically role players with the exceptions of the before mentioned *2015 versions of Klay Thompson and Jimmy Butler. However, you conveniently glossed over that comment in my post presumably because of the toxic emission of fumes coming out of your rear caboose, clouding your judgment.
Leonard can create in transition when he has open court and numbers to work with. He is without a doubt nearly unwatchable in the half court. He takes a couple dribbles toward the paint stops and passes the ball out to the top of the key. That's if he doesn't hack up a half-baked 15 footer that barely touches rim. I'm not saying he can't improve but he hasn't reached "elite" status on offense yet so I have no problem with him NOT being the number one option. There's a reason the Spurs offense has actually been better without Leonard this year. It's the defense that suffered the most.

I can't make much sense out of the rest of this post. Maybe I forgot to use quotations for # 4. I don't put Leonard above many of those players yet. But if you read Spurstalk more often :lol, you'd understand the reality of overrating one of it's own.

How many of those guy you mentioned would you give max money to? :lol

^^ Typical, bunch of inaccurate gibberish and no facts to back his argument, as usual..

Moving the goal posts, ignoring the numbers, making shit up, the usual Poops Czar moves..

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Originally Posted by Hoops Czar

I'm not buying the whole Duncan and Splitter clogging the paint argument because that wasn't such the case in last year's finals.

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Have no horse in this race, but it's well know that's the reason Pop started Diaw since Game 3 and Kawhi became superlative after playing average the first two games. The Spurs just obliterated Miami after that change.

eat a dick you fucking moron. your observations are the fucking worst.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Have no horse in this race, but it's well know that's the reason Pop started Diaw since Game 3 and Kawhi became superlative after playing average the first two games. The Spurs just obliterated Miami after that change.

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It's possible. But I think it had more to do with team basketball rather than just Leonard.

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Originally Posted by Hoops Czar

First off, you showed me a a list of SF's, half of which you called overrated. Now, you're using them in an argument to thwart off Kiwi's ineptitude on offense primarily because it fits into your so-called narrative. I'm not the one with the convoluted connotations but, you and your obvious troll handles on the other hand. :lmao

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Your claim is that Leonard has no offensive value because 63% of his shots are assisted..my point is that it's a ridiculous argument, and I gave you the list of SFs in the NBA and their assisted %..it's a simple concept that you can't seem to understand:lol..there are only 3 SFs in the NBA that are unique to the prototypical SF role..nobody said Leonard should be playing the same role as Lebron/Durant/Carmelo

All the players I named are good offensive players..they are nowhere near the all-around players that Leonard is, though..you seem to be ignoring every facet of basketball outside of shot-creation, for some reason(probably because you're an idiot:lol)..

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Yes, Leonard does a wonderful job bumping up his true shooting % with layups and slam dunks which he does roughly 28% (55-87/67%) of the time. Unfortunately, that leaves 82% of his shots outside of 5 ft , in which he continues to shoot a low % (36%). Doesn't Pop realize that works against Kiwi? :lol

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This is irrelevant..you said he's inefficient, when in reality, he has been one of the most efficient players in the NBA the past 2 years:lmao..now it matters how he gets his points? :lol..

You compared him to Corey Brewer's career 50% TS, which is way off, as usual..

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I'm not buying the whole Duncan and Splitter clogging the paint argument because that wasn't such the case in last year's finals. "The Spurs concept of team basketball was the best in NBA history."

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:lmao the Duncan/Splitter combination was barely used in the past 2 Finals, you moron..Leonard's numbers skyrocket when he plays with Diaw, rather than the Duncan/Splitter combination..you can ignore the numbers if you want, though..

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You don't need to be a stat hound to see how poor of a shooter Leonard is this year. If you're prerogative is to compare him to a bunch of pure shooting SF's, then you have at it but the said players you quoted above are basically role players with the exceptions of the before mentioned *2015 versions of Klay Thompson and Jimmy Butler.

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:lol Role players?

Jimmy Butler: 22% usage
Chandler Parsons: 21%
Wilson CHandler: 20%
Klay Thompson: 28%
Luol Deng: 20%
Tobias Harris: 24%
Wes Matthews: 20%
Bradley Beal: 21%

Literally, none of those players are role players, you moron:lmao..they're all high-usage players

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Leonard can create in transition when he has open court and numbers to work with. He is without a doubt nearly unwatchable in the half court. He takes a couple dribbles toward the paint stops and passes the ball out to the top of the key. That's if he doesn't hack up a half-baked 15 footer that barely touches rim. I'm not saying he can't improve but he hasn't reached "elite" status on offense yet so I have no problem with him NOT being the number one option. There's a reason the Spurs offense has actually been better without Leonard this year. It's the defense that suffered the most.

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A bunch of gibberish with no facts, and ignoring that Leonard has the 3rd highest offensive on/off for the Spurs the past 2 years

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How many of those guy you mentioned would you give max money to? :lol

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All of those players are good offensive players..Kawhi is just as good offensively + an elite defender, elite rebounder and elite playoff performer..ya, it's a no-brainer:lol..

So, according to Hoops Czar, if you aren't a PG, James Harden, or Durant/Carmelo/Lebron, you're a role player that doesn't have value on offense:lmao..

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Originally Posted by Malik Hairston

Your claim is that Leonard has no offensive value because 63% of his shots are assisted..my point is that it's a ridiculous argument, and I gave you the list of SFs in the NBA and their assisted %..it's a simple concept that you can't seem to understand:lol..there are only 3 SFs in the NBA that are unique to the prototypical SF role..nobody said Leonard should be playing the same role as Lebron/Durant/Carmelo

All the players I named are good offensive players..they are nowhere near the all-around players that Leonard is, though..you seem to be ignoring every facet of basketball outside of shot-creation, for some reason(probably because you're an idiot:lol)..

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I didn't say he had zero offensive value you clown. I said he's primarily a defender. Just another contrived analysis on your part.

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Originally Posted by Malik Hairston

:lmao the Duncan/Splitter combination was barely used in the past 2 Finals, you moron..Leonard's numbers skyrocket when he plays with Diaw, rather than the Duncan/Splitter combination..you can ignore the numbers if you want, though..



:lol Role players?

Jimmy Butler: 22% usage
Chandler Parsons: 21%
Wilson CHandler: 20%
Klay Thompson: 28%
Luol Deng: 20%
Tobias Harris: 24%
Wes Matthews: 20%
Bradley Beal: 21%

Literally, none of those players are role players, you moron:lmao..they're all high-usage players

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:lmao:lmao:lmaoUsage rates doesn't mean what you think it means. Parker has a usage rate of 24.9%. "He should be a role player." "He's hurting the team." "He needs to be coming off the bench." Go hammer some Jack Daniels you hack! They're role players.

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Originally Posted by Malik Hairston

A bunch of gibberish with no facts, and ignoring that Leonard has the 3rd highest offensive on/off for the Spurs the past 2 years

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Contributed to great team basketball which you choose to ignore. Go figure that he's most efficient with Ginobili on the court. It's going to be sad to see him go. conversely, he's terrible with Parker on the floor. Well of course, Parker ignores him. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by Malik Hairston

All of those players are good offensive players..Kawhi is just as good offensively + an elite defender, elite rebounder and elite playoff performer..ya, it's a no-brainer:lol..

So, according to Hoops Czar, if you aren't a PG, James Harden, or Durant/Carmelo/Lebron, you're a role player that doesn't have value on offense:lmao..

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More drivel. Beal is having an awful offensive season. I never put him in the elite class of Harden, Durant and James. However, half this forum has been doing just that since last year's finals. He's a product of the system. I never said he wasn't better than a role player so there goes 2/3's of your list right sans the two I already mentioned. :lol "Leonard is a dynamic offensive weapon." and you're comparing him to role players.:lol 82% of Leonard's shots taken this year have been beyond 5 ft, most of them beyond 10. There's too much talent and athleticism in that body to settle for outside jumpers. I do watch the games and he can rarely take his man off the dribble to the basket. It almost always leads to a jumper or a kick out. When he approaches 40% in the paint rather than his current 28%, I'll be a believer.

Better stay away from Gasol in the offseason because Leonard can't operate with bigs in the paint. It cramps his style.

:lol Poops Czar

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Originally Posted by EVAY

Bingo.

this is what I have been seeing all season.

The team is truly TRYING to get Kawhi more involved in the offensive sets. But to do that, they have to change some of what their offense has been doing for the last three years.
It is occasionally difficult to watch the process. Lots of times when Kawhi tries to iso, our bigs are unsure where to go and the spacing gets crowded. Plus, when he isos, our guards are not going to be in the motion offense they have been running for years.

All of this is to say it is not a fun thing to watch sometimes. It may be necessary to get to where the team wants to be by the playoffs, but it is not always pretty.

I believe that all of the team members want to do what Pop wants them to do. The ability to remember how to get it done differently from what worked before is not easy all the time.

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Kawhi's usage percentage didn't increase high this season, every game Tim and Tony took more shots than him.

But agree with you, a few times it seems like the team try to change some things to involve more him. And if Pop does that consistently it will be the good move.

Granted, it's not always nice to watch, it's a work in progress, but we can't act like Tony is still the most dominant point guard in the league.
He's an amazing player -injuries/fatigue limited him this and last season- but the offensive system must change because when the Spurs run the offense taking the old page with Tony against good teams, we know what happened, Westbrook, Lillard, Rose ate him alive last games.

Offensive roles have changed these years, from Duncan-centered offense to offense based on Tony's isos and pick-and-rolls, now it's time to change again to a more distributed offense.

That's why we need to improve Leonard's offensive game, and his development will help Tony's game, too.
Because opposite defenders won't take Parker as the only perimeter offensive threat and when other teams focus more on Leonard or he will get a double team that will be a great benefit to Tony.

The Spurs need Leonard to become a reliable 1-b offensive option and I can't blame Pop if he really tries to do that.

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Originally Posted by wildbill2u

This isn't the Beautiful Game that won the 5th title. It will be interesting to see if Pop is on board with this youngster taking over the offense after he encouraged him to shoot more.

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Well, Leonard was the leading scorer of the Finals last three games and the offense looked really beautiful with him on the court in those games.

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Originally Posted by wildchild

Well, Leonard was the leading scorer of the Finals last three games and the offense looks really beautiful with him on the court in those games.

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Boom!

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Originally Posted by rasuo214

Kawhi's OffRtg is also highest on the team (107)

Harden is 107.8, Lebron 110.3, Butler 106.3, Westbrook 106.7, Durant 105.9

So yea Kawhi's biggest impact is on the defensive end (+rebounding) lets not act like he's some marginal/average offensive player. Maybe that is system related but then you could also apply that to the rest of the team as well.

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Where are you getting your ORtg numbers? This site-- http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html says Kawhi has the 9th highest offensive rating on the team, but shares the #1 DRtg with Duncan.

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Originally Posted by Mr Bones

Where are you getting your ORtg numbers? This site-- http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html says Kawhi has the 9th highest offensive rating on the team, but shares the #1 DRtg with Duncan.

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http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612...F_RATING&dir=1

He's #2 now.