The Beautiful Game vs Iso basketball

This is NOT a flame war thread. I have been listening to basketball talk all day. On the San Antonio sports station they were discussing the if Parker must decrease in order for Kiwi to increase. There was also an article on flow vs iso offenses on ESPN site on 4/8. The Spurs have had no problem passing the torch from the Admiral to Tim, to Manu to Tony and now to Kiwi. It is best to ride your best horse and the Spurs are always more about team than individual exploits. KL is the Spurs most athletic player that is on the rise. His game is evolving and improving on both sides of the court.

However I was watching the beautiful game videos on youtube, it always fires me up. The Spurs are an all time great at the motion offense aka the beautiful game, however that was as much a choice of necessity as it was a stylistic choice. The Spurs didn't have the uber athletes to play Thunderrefs basketball, therefore they had to find another way, and another way did they find. However now they have an uber athlete. KL might be a consensus top 10 - 15 player next season depending on how the playoffs play out. The Spurs now can play iso offense thru the Claw in a way that they haven't been able to since Timmy in his prime running 4 down. Just because they can however, should they?

A vast majority of the league runs iso offenses with a healthy dose of pick and roll so defenses around the league are well versed on how to defend it. There are a few teams that are trying to run the beautiful game but no one can do it as well as the Spurs at their best, so it is impossible to prepare for them. If a choice must be made between what type of offense to run I am totally on team Beautiful game. KL is ascending but he is nowhere near the best iso player in the league on offense (Harden, Curry, Westbrook, KD, LBJ come to mind) so while he is a matchup nightmare, he isn't good enough at it (yet) to carry us where we want to go with it. The NBA hasn't found a cure for the beautiful game yet, now I have no problem with Kiwi moving up the option chart in the flow of the offense, and I have more faith in him being the last guy to touch the ball on a offensive possession but I am not ready for the team's offensive philosophy to change just yet.

I tire of hearing how other teams are more athletic than the Spurs at almost every position and I want the Spurs to be more athletic but there are some things about the masses (majority) that I do not covet or want for the Spurs. Even if KL becomes the impossible to cover matchup nightmare that Westbrook and Harden can be at times I do NOT want the Spurs to run a Thunder or Rockets type offense. One day I might tire of the flow offense but now is not that time. To me KL can thrive and grow in it, maybe not statwise in the Westbrook scoring title sense but that has never been the Spurs way well since the Admiral, lol. KL in the flow offense is the best of both worlds, like having a totally bought into the system in their prime Jordan and Kareem running the Princeton offense (the perfect storm of intensity, intelligence and athleticism).

Paragraphs are your friends.

Excellent post and it appears that pop is thinking the same way. To me kawaii defense and rebounding ability is more valuable to the team rather then his scoring

You take what the defense gives you.

KawhISOs kill the ball movement

You just wrote what I've been thinking for a while. The Spurs are at their best when they leave defenses guessing. Ball movement, ball movement, ball movement. I'd like to see the team go to Kawhi when he's exploiting a match-up or it makes sense, not exclusively.

I agree completely with OP, yet, in the series with the Clips the Kawhi mismatch when he's guarded by Barnes is pronounced enough that we must use it to our advantage. So, there needs to be (and surely will be) a mix during the first round at least.

I don't think anybody wants the Spurs offense to become mostly fueled by ISO plays. That's just bad basketball.

However there's no denying that it's better to have "Games 3-4-5 Kawhi" in the NBA Finals than "Games 1-2 Kawhi". He's always going to give great effort defensively, but on offense it's clear he needs to feel that Pop and his teammates trust him. I don't necessarily see that as regressing towards ISO plays. The Spurs are just better when Kawhi is active, involved and in tune on offense.

The beautiful game is great and works fine against average-to-decent defensive teams, because some player is going to miss a rotation at some point. But when the defense is focused you need something extra, and that comes from the double threat a great offensive player (Tim -> Manu -> Tony -> Kawhi) can provide. Then the defense has to worry about both the ball movement (missing rotations) and one-on-one defense (match-ups). It's obviously a lot harder.

This is what Pop was preaching going into the final game vs Pelicans. It just seems like not everyone is bought into the system as we have in the past.

What I see is Parker believing the motion offense starts with him, his penetration/aggressiveness creates a mismatch/opportunity to either drive to the basket for an easy look or a forced collapse leaving someone open. Herein lies the problem. I believe Pop is asking Tony to allow Kawhi to be an alternate spark to the motion....the problem with this, is that Tony is throwing a hissy-fit because he'll give Kawhi the ball and then stand still. The whole point of a motion offense is to create a lot of motion from all positions and create misdirections; if you have someone who doesn't buy into the scheme it's just iso and easily defended as OP mentioned.

I think Parker thinks he has a higher percentage of opportunity to score, which is why he'll sometimes just keep the ball....which leaves Kawhi looking sometimes like he just doesn't want to be there because he knows he's supposed to be running the offense but Parker is just not allowing it.

This problem was very evident in our Rodeo Road Trip, it got so bad the team had a "team meeting" to clear the air. The problem is not gone. We all know Parker has an ego, we might as well admit that much...and it is finally becoming an issue imho. Want more proof? Read Danny Green's comments after the Pelicans game.

Motion offenses only work on teams that truly believe in the system and play as a team! Spurs better get their crap together and clear this up or we're not seeing a championship.

I also want to throw one more thought into this topic: Is it strategic?

We've seen it this season, but is it out of failure or strategy? There's times when I see us clearly running half-court iso offense and times when the team is playing motion. There's a possibility that the team is being asked to switch offensive schemes on the fly to confuse defenses. Perhaps this is just wanting to give credit where it's not due.

the problem with this, is that Tony is throwing a hissy-fit because he'll give Kawhi the ball and then stand still.


got some hot fan fiction here. Hot shit, bodice ripping. Gonna get Fabio on the cover for this one. It's got love, jealousy, delusion, tragedy. So much win. Sweet innocent Kawhi is the rightful heir to the spurs throne but the short and fat Parker is blocking him all while the grey king popovich is silent leading many to wonder whether the king did abdicate or grow mad.Meanwhile the evil witch queen Becky schemes to control the throne and install Parker as lord regent for life.


Anyway, to get the thread back on track. The problem with this is that until Kawhi learns to dribble effectively and pass out of double teams at an elite level you can't run Kawhi in offense as the motion offense. Kawhi needs space, motion needs space and you are really asking a lot to dump the ball to K and then expect him to know the motion sets and timing to make the right pass at the right time. That's crazy. Let leonard exploit mismatches so let him get some touches and assume POP has enough control over Tony to run the offense as he sees fit. It's so weird how all the old "Fire Pop" energy went into "trade Parker"

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

KawhISOs kill the ball movement

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How about they mix it up, like they did for the majority of the win streak? It doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other. A multidimensional offense is more potent than an offense that relies solely on the beautiful game or on isolations. The Spurs won at OKC last year by running 4 down in OT, sometimes you need that dominant individual player to take over.

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Originally Posted by TheGreatYacht

KawhISOs kill the ball movement

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Kawhisos destroyed James and the Heat


EnriquIsos is detrimental to the team



:lol dont be mad

Playerfans quick to ruin the thread. Sensitive riquetards :lol

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Originally Posted by FkLA

How about they mix it up, like they did for the majority of the win streak? It doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other. A multidimensional offense is more potent than an offense that relies solely on the beautiful game or on isolations. The Spurs won at OKC last year by running 4 down in OT, sometimes you need that dominant individual player to take over.

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Or the spurs were just dead tired at that point and they had to rely on Duncan...

and he delivered big time

As for OP, the spurs motion offense is what they should run just like last year. However when things slow down they have more confidence in kawhi and also have duncan to score when needed

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Originally Posted by siraulo23

Or the spurs were just dead tired at that point and they had to rely on Duncan...

and he delivered big time

As for OP, the spurs motion offense is what they should run just like last year. However when things slow down they have more confidence in kawhi and also have duncan to score when needed

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The truth is we might not see that level of dominance from the beautiful game again. Even the players have said as much. If they can recapture it then sure run it till it gets us 6 but if not then a multidimensional offense is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by lefty

Kawhisos destroyed James and the Heat


EnriquIsos is detrimental to the team



:lol dont be mad

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:lol

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Originally Posted by FkLA

The truth is we might not see that level of dominance from the beautiful game again. Even the players have said as much. If they can recapture it then sure run it till it gets us 6 but if not then a multidimensional offense is the way to go.

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TD said they want to run kawhiiso's when the game is slow...But parker sometimes have other ideas, sadly.

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Originally Posted by $pursDynasty

but I am not ready for the team's offensive philosophy to change just yet.

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But you know, the offensive philosophy for the Spus' wings has been let them parking in the corner and hit 3's for the last 11 years.
You can't have a player like Kawhi and play him in that way.

However, Isos vs ball movement, there isn't versus with KL's offensive game.
He was the main scorer in the best Spurs games of the last Finals, and the best Spurs games this season like the game in Atlanta or the last game against GSW.

His offense seems to complete the ball movement and his plays show his compatibility within it.

And the parker haters strike again, can a fan have at least 1 thread without this shit. Only place on the web where i see this much hate for players on the team you supposed to love. Who are you guys trying to convince cause it's for damn sure pop ain't listening??? How can people be player fans of a team that operates the exact opposite philosophy??? SMH must be this new generation, I could imagine what these guys would've been saying about avery back in the day

It's clear that Kwahi is far superior in BB IQ and skills to any other player on the Spurs. So superior in fact that he doesn't even need the other bozos in order to win the title by himself.

The new Spurs system should be for Kwahi to play 1 on 5. Pop should simply order the other four players on the court to move out of his way into a group somewhere on both offense and defense.

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Originally Posted by lefty

Kawhisos destroyed James and the Heat


EnriquIsos is detrimental to the team



:lol dont be mad

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:lmao:lmao

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Originally Posted by wildbill2u

It's clear that Kwahi is far superior in BB IQ and skills to any other player on the Spurs. So superior in fact that he doesn't even need the other bozos in order to win the title by himself.

The new Spurs system should be for Kwahi to play 1 on 5. Pop should simply order the other four players on the court to move out of his way into a group somewhere on both offense and defense.

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Noone is suggesting anything close to that, moron. Maybe you'd realize that if you took the time to read posts.

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Originally Posted by FkLA

Noone is suggesting anything close to that, moron. Maybe you'd realize that if you took the time to read posts.

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:lolParkertards

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Originally Posted by $pursDynasty

This is NOT a flame war thread. I have been listening to basketball talk all day. On the San Antonio sports station they were discussing the if Parker must decrease in order for Kiwi to increase. There was also an article on flow vs iso offenses on ESPN site on 4/8. The Spurs have had no problem passing the torch from the Admiral to Tim, to Manu to Tony and now to Kiwi. It is best to ride your best horse and the Spurs are always more about team than individual exploits. KL is the Spurs most athletic player that is on the rise. His game is evolving and improving on both sides of the court.

However I was watching the beautiful game videos on youtube, it always fires me up. The Spurs are an all time great at the motion offense aka the beautiful game, however that was as much a choice of necessity as it was a stylistic choice. The Spurs didn't have the uber athletes to play Thunderrefs basketball, therefore they had to find another way, and another way did they find. However now they have an uber athlete. KL might be a consensus top 10 - 15 player next season depending on how the playoffs play out. The Spurs now can play iso offense thru the Claw in a way that they haven't been able to since Timmy in his prime running 4 down. Just because they can however, should they?

A vast majority of the league runs iso offenses with a healthy dose of pick and roll so defenses around the league are well versed on how to defend it. There are a few teams that are trying to run the beautiful game but no one can do it as well as the Spurs at their best, so it is impossible to prepare for them. If a choice must be made between what type of offense to run I am totally on team Beautiful game. KL is ascending but he is nowhere near the best iso player in the league on offense (Harden, Curry, Westbrook, KD, LBJ come to mind) so while he is a matchup nightmare, he isn't good enough at it (yet) to carry us where we want to go with it. The NBA hasn't found a cure for the beautiful game yet, now I have no problem with Kiwi moving up the option chart in the flow of the offense, and I have more faith in him being the last guy to touch the ball on a offensive possession but I am not ready for the team's offensive philosophy to change just yet.

I tire of hearing how other teams are more athletic than the Spurs at almost every position and I want the Spurs to be more athletic but there are some things about the masses (majority) that I do not covet or want for the Spurs. Even if KL becomes the impossible to cover matchup nightmare that Westbrook and Harden can be at times I do NOT want the Spurs to run a Thunder or Rockets type offense. One day I might tire of the flow offense but now is not that time. To me KL can thrive and grow in it, maybe not statwise in the Westbrook scoring title sense but that has never been the Spurs way well since the Admiral, lol. KL in the flow offense is the best of both worlds, like having a totally bought into the system in their prime Jordan and Kareem running the Princeton offense (the perfect storm of intensity, intelligence and athleticism).

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The beautiful game needs hot 3-point shooting to create space and blow out opponents early, if the semi-open 3's are not falling you have to have a plan B.

Strong 1v1 ISO scoring (or at most, ability to score efficiently off a simple screen and roll) is always needed when you have a dry position, or the game slows down in the 4th.

Even last year, when things got desperate in OKC game 6, Spurs went to Duncan ISO out of dire need. And vs Miami games 3-4-5 Kwahi had amazing ISO plays.

You are not going to win a championship with 100% passing, which is why I don't think the Hawks has any chance against the Cavs in a serious best of 7.

For Spurs to win it all this year as a sixth seed, Kwahi have to be playing at game 3-4-5 level. Heck, for Spurs to pass the clippers, he has to be the go-to scorer if the Spurs can't find an open shot.

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Originally Posted by glen907

And the parker haters strike again, can a fan have at least 1 thread without this shit. Only place on the web where i see this much hate for players on the team you supposed to love. Who are you guys trying to convince cause it's for damn sure pop ain't listening??? How can people be player fans of a team that operates the exact opposite philosophy??? SMH must be this new generation, I could imagine what these guys would've been saying about avery back in the day

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Most of these player fans have never coached or played basketball. They think that somehow watching games gives them insight to the game. Let's face it....if they ever had the chance to make their silly recommendations to Pop they would get a blank stare like he does to reporters on TNT or ESPN.

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Originally Posted by LongtimeSpursFan

Most of these player fans have never coached or played basketball l. They think that somehow watching games gives them insight to the game. Let's face it....if they ever had the chance to make their silly recommendations to Pop they would get a start like he does to reporters on TNT or ESPN.

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How long have you been coaching?