Pop and the pecking order..

Anyone that plays basketball even just a pick up game realizes there's a pecking order. The best guys should get the ball the most and take the most shots and it goes on from there to the last guy on the squad.

The Spurs cant necessarily play this way though because they have so many moving pieces that perform differently depending on the situation. Does anyone else feel like Pop every now and then has one of these games where he plays everyone based on their merit obtained order on the depth chart so that he can prove to the squad who belongs and who doesnt?

For instance there's no doubt that Cojo was a huge piece for the Spurs this year. He picked up the slack and performed admirably. There's no doubt he's earned his play time over Mills since Mills has struggled mightily. So of course first game of the playoffs even though Mills was the better choice he stuck by Cojo because he earned his spot in the order and now when he goes to bench Cojo in the next games he can justify it by saying hey you tried but Mills gives us the better chance to win and Cojo cant be salty because the proof is in the pudding he saw how much he hurt the team first hand and was outplayed by Mills.

It sucks that he didnt make knee jerk reactions to the moment and go with what works, but in the long run for the integrity of his system it's best that he lose a game showing the guys who've worked hard for minutes that they're not up to scuff so that they can buy into being benched for a superior match up. It might go a long way to preventing locker room issues and disunity in the face of adversity.

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Originally Posted by Rob123

Anyone that plays basketball even just a pick up game realizes there's a pecking order. The best guys should get the ball the most and take the most shots and it goes on from there to the last guy on the squad.

The Spurs cant necessarily play this way though because they have so many moving pieces that perform differently depending on the situation. Does anyone else feel like Pop every now and then has one of these games where he plays everyone based on their merit obtained order on the depth chart so that he can prove to the squad who belongs and who doesnt?

For instance there's no doubt that Cojo was a huge piece for the Spurs this year. He picked up the slack and performed admirably. There's no doubt he's earned his play time over Mills since Mills has struggled mightily. So of course first game of the playoffs even though Mills was the better choice he stuck by Cojo because he earned his spot in the order and now when he goes to bench Cojo in the next games he can justify it by saying hey you tried but Mills gives us the better chance to win and Cojo cant be salty because the proof is in the pudding he saw how much he hurt the team first hand and was outplayed by Mills.

It sucks that he didnt make knee jerk reactions to the moment and go with what works, but in the long run for the integrity of his system it's best that he lose a game showing the guys who've worked hard for minutes that they're not up to scuff so that they can buy into being benched for a superior match up. It might go a long way to preventing locker room issues and disunity in the face of adversity.

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Parker doesn't deserve any minutes then. He hasn't really proved shit this year or the playoffs before. Same thing this series. :lmao

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Originally Posted by dabom

Parker doesn't deserve any minutes then. He hasn't really proved shit this year or the playoffs before. Same thing this series. :lmao

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Well true but over the past 10+ years parker has earned his spot in the pecking order and by being loyal to him and allowing him to suck balls on national tv it'll make it easier for him to eventually pull the plug. If he were just to yank the cord right away that could create some bad blood between both parker and pop which would not be good for a team that is so reliant on chemistry and unity.

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes you have to stick with what's not working in this situation because the loyalty and patience you show allows younger guys on the team to more faithfully buy into the system that Pop has created. Yeah games may be lost, maybe even the series, but in the long run Pops coaching integrity is cemented.

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Originally Posted by Rob123

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes you have to stick with what's not working in this situation because the loyalty and patience you show allows younger guys on the team to more faithfully buy into the system that Pop has created. Yeah games may be lost, maybe even the series, but in the long run Pops coaching integrity is cemented.

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you are on some serious shit if you believe that nonsense. what your saying is lets put pops ego first and to hell with the rest of the team. yeah, fuck that. pop can gtfo if he loses this series while continuing to play one of the worst pg's in the nba.

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Originally Posted by Rob123

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes you have to stick with what's not working in this situation because the loyalty and patience you show allows younger guys on the team to more faithfully buy into the system that Pop has created. Yeah games may be lost, maybe even the series, but in the long run Pops coaching integrity is cemented.

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This creates friction because the players see favoritism. The players and assistant coaches see tony sucks major ass out there but there he is playing more minutes. Let's keep making danny the whipping boy though.

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Originally Posted by dabom

This creates friction because the players see favoritism. The players and assistant coaches see tony sucks major ass out there but there he is playing more minutes. Let's keep making danny the whipping boy though.

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Hmmm, think about it. Cory can't shoot and is no threat to score. No one seriously guarded him when he was in the game...5 on 4. Mills can shoot, but he can't dribble and he can't defend anyone in the half court for more than 6 minutes at a time. Parker is the only one that can handle and be a threat on offense, and at least get a hand in someone's face when they are shooting. And don't be stupid about Paul getting past him occassionaly on defense, Paul get's past everyone guarding him, that's why he's a superstar. He blew past Danny Green and Corey Joseph aplenty.

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Originally Posted by cd98

Hmmm, think about it. Cory can't shoot and is no threat to score. No one seriously guarded him when he was in the game...5 on 4. Mills can shoot, but he can't dribble and he can't defend anyone in the half court for more than 6 minutes at a time. Parker is the only one that can handle and be a threat on offense, and at least get a hand in someone's face when they are shooting. And don't be stupid about Paul getting past him occassionaly on defense, Paul get's past everyone guarding him, that's why he's a superstar. He blew past Danny Green and Corey Joseph aplenty.

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Did you just say threat on offense? :lmao

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Originally Posted by robdiaz2191

you are on some serious shit if you believe that nonsense. what your saying is lets put pops ego first and to hell with the rest of the team. yeah, fuck that. pop can gtfo if he loses this series while continuing to play one of the worst pg's in the nba.

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I'm sorry but I think your views are myopic.

The Spurs have become great because of they culture they have built over so many decades of hard work. You cant freak out and throw the baby out with the bath water over one game or even one series or season. Culture trumps all especially for a team that doesnt really attract big name FA's like San Antonio.

There's plenty of things we dont see that go into the rotations like practice time, practice performance, team fit etc. You've got to stick with the guys that have put in the work even if some flash in the pan may be a better match up. By being patient and allowing the guys that put in the work to fail Pop is making it easier to switch to what works with out destroying chemistry.

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Originally Posted by dabom

Did you just say threat on offense? :lmao

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Yes. He is a threat. Just like Danny Green is a threat to make a three every time he shoots, even if he is 1-7. Cory Joseph is not a threat to shoot, hence they leave him wide open.

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Originally Posted by dabom

This creates friction because the players see favoritism. The players and assistant coaches see tony sucks major ass out there but there he is playing more minutes. Let's keep making danny the whipping boy though.

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I think this can be true to an extent. Not from the coaches perspective but definitely from the players. If you feel you can help the team more but arent getting in it can be very aggravating. I know I've been there plenty of times and was a douche about it. But then when your number is finally called and you've put in the work and paid your dues, you dont want to be yanked on a short leash; that creates bad blood. The ideal situation is to slowly pull the plug but to give significant loyalty and patience to the guy that has earned his spot to see if he can pull through it is better for the team culture in the long run.

Pop pecking order:

1. Wine
2. Bonner







3. Everything and everyone else.

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Originally Posted by cd98

Hmmm, think about it. Cory can't shoot and is no threat to score. No one seriously guarded him when he was in the game...5 on 4. Mills can shoot, but he can't dribble and he can't defend anyone in the half court for more than 6 minutes at a time. Parker is the only one that can handle and be a threat on offense, and at least get a hand in someone's face when they are shooting. And don't be stupid about Paul getting past him occassionaly on defense, Paul get's past everyone guarding him, that's why he's a superstar. He blew past Danny Green and Corey Joseph aplenty.

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I'm sorry but this is all wrong. While from a purely offensive standpoint Parker is no doubt the most talented of the 3 there is more to playing PG than that. Parker is playing bad, has been playing bad, and will probably continue to play bad. He is just BAD. He also plays terribly with Kawhi on the floor.

Read this.
http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/2014/12/...k-tony-parker/



"So when a player shows improvement in an area as important as shooting, how do you balance that against his decline in other areas? Each overall player metric weights these things differently. I like math, so I find the case for Wins Produced, which places a higher value on passing and rebounding than metrics like PER, compelling, and Parker’s Wins Produced this year says that he’s a below average player, dragged down by basically everything he does that isn’t shooting the ball.
Fortunately, the Spurs employ two above-average point guards: Cory Joseph and Patty Mills. These players aren’t completely interchangeable. The energetic Mills is an up-tempo player and excellent three-point shooter while Joseph is more adept at facilitating the offense and finishing at the rim. But both Mills and Joseph are playing at a higher overall level than Parker, and the Spurs should explore lineups that take advantage of their skills. It’d be a shame to see Joseph lose minutes to Parker as he returns.
Not all measures agree with this assessment of the Spurs’ point guards (if you’re a diehard PER partisan, you’re not going to find this persuasive), but Parker and Joseph’s on/off court numbers this season support the case: ESPN’s on-court impact metric has Cory Joseph ranked a respectable 21stamong all NBA point guards, with Tony Parker coming in at 75. The Spurs just aren’t playing as well when Parker is on the floor."

What's sad is that he's playing even worse now.

Yeah definitely, mills over cojo. Hope for Parker.

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Originally Posted by robdiaz2191

I'm sorry but this is all wrong. While from a purely offensive standpoint Parker is no doubt the most talented of the 3 there is more to playing PG than that. Parker is playing bad, has been playing bad, and will probably continue to play bad. He is just BAD. He also plays terribly with Kawhi on the floor.

Read this.
http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/2014/12/...k-tony-parker/
Funny because the best the Spurs had their best stretch of games with Parker as the starter. And during that time, Mills was struggling immensely and lost his spot in the rotation. I'm not saying Parker is a top 5 point guard. He used to be a top 3, but he's lost a step, no question. Still, he's a scoring threat that can handle the ball. Advanced stats tell a story, but they don't tell the whole story, and that is why Pop uses them, but he doesn't make all his decisions based on them, as he's said more than once. Certainly Mills and Cojo have their roles and times when they are needed, but Parker is the best of the three, and like it or not, he is generally the one that is likely to play the best of the three. Cory may get a few more rebounds or steals, and that might look good on advanced stats, but he can't shoot, and that is a big negative for an offense that requires shooters. And those advanced stats are for Mills and Cojo likely going up against second units which are inferior. Parker's numbers are going against starting point guards, the toughest position in the NBA. I'm sure that has an impact on the stats and advanced stats, and why Pop isn't dogmatic in following them.


"So when a player shows improvement in an area as important as shooting, how do you balance that against his decline in other areas? Each overall player metric weights these things differently. I like math, so I find the case for Wins Produced, which places a higher value on passing and rebounding than metrics like PER, compelling, and Parker’s Wins Produced this year says that he’s a below average player, dragged down by basically everything he does that isn’t shooting the ball.
Fortunately, the Spurs employ two above-average point guards: Cory Joseph and Patty Mills. These players aren’t completely interchangeable. The energetic Mills is an up-tempo player and excellent three-point shooter while Joseph is more adept at facilitating the offense and finishing at the rim. But both Mills and Joseph are playing at a higher overall level than Parker, and the Spurs should explore lineups that take advantage of their skills. It’d be a shame to see Joseph lose minutes to Parker as he returns.
Not all measures agree with this assessment of the Spurs’ point guards (if you’re a diehard PER partisan, you’re not going to find this persuasive), but Parker and Joseph’s on/off court numbers this season support the case: ESPN’s on-court impact metric has Cory Joseph ranked a respectable 21stamong all NBA point guards, with Tony Parker coming in at 75. The Spurs just aren’t playing as well when Parker is on the floor."

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Keep being in denial. Parker is a bad PG. Anyone who watches a game can see that.

Lol lots of poster-coaches around here these days :lol

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Originally Posted by hater

Lol lots of poster-coaches around here these days :lol

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Yeah, with brilliant takes like play Cojo or Mills 30 minutes a game. Brilliant. I'm wondering why our coach doesn't get this.

Pork and the porking order tbh.

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Originally Posted by cd98

Yeah, with brilliant takes like play Cojo or Mills 30 minutes a game. Brilliant. I'm wondering why our coach doesn't get this.

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the stats back up that cojo and mills are better team players than parker and that the team plays better with parker off the floor. you can keep being delusional about it but that isn't changing anything.

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Originally Posted by robdiaz2191

the stats back up that cojo and mills are better team players than parker and that the team plays better with parker off the floor. you can keep being delusional about it but that isn't changing anything.

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Stats are manipulated. I'm sure Tony could get his stats up if he played against the NBA's third stringers in garbage time.

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Originally Posted by cd98

Stats are manipulated. I'm sure Tony could get his stats up if he played against the NBA's third stringers in garbage time.

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Keep deflecting. The stats say Parker is the Spurs 3rd best PG. And Mills and Cojo have both played against starters. Keep bringing the kobe-fan takes though.

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Originally Posted by robdiaz2191

Keep deflecting. The stats say Parker is the Spurs 3rd best PG. And Mills and Cojo have both played against starters. Keep bringing the kobe-fan takes though.

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Your own article that you quote acknowledges that it might not be correct. But no reason to look at stats. Just watch how the Clippers guard (I mean, don't guard) Cojo when he is in the game. Imagine that for 30 minutes. How easy it is for them to double team Leonard when they don't have to worry about Cojo making a jump shot. Hell, they'll let Cojo try and win the series from the perimeter. That's why you can't play him for 30 minutes, and why Pop stopped playing him. He killed the spacing on offense. He was pretty good on D, but we need O. And Patty is a fine shooter and did well, but he can't guard Paul or any other starter on the Clippers for 30 minutes. IT's just a fact. That's why the smartest coach in the league doesn't do it.

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Originally Posted by cd98

Yeah, with brilliant takes like play Cojo or Mills 30 minutes a game. Brilliant. I'm wondering why our coach doesn't get this.

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:lmao

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Originally Posted by Rob123

I'm sorry but I think your views are myopic.

The Spurs have become great because of they culture they have built over so many decades of hard work. You cant freak out and throw the baby out with the bath water over one game or even one series or season. Culture trumps all especially for a team that doesnt really attract big name FA's like San Antonio.

There's plenty of things we dont see that go into the rotations like practice time, practice performance, team fit etc. You've got to stick with the guys that have put in the work even if some flash in the pan may be a better match up. By being patient and allowing the guys that put in the work to fail Pop is making it easier to switch to what works with out destroying chemistry.

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You'll have to get on Robdiaz's level by instead writing something like, "nuh uh! Kawhi's the worst player in the league right now!"

But seriously...good post. Robdiaz would fit in well in the Knicks culture tbh.

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Originally Posted by cd98

Stats are manipulated. I'm sure Tony could get his stats up if he played against the NBA's third stringers in garbage time.

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People have been trying to explain how these advanced stats work for years to Robdiaz...I don't think he's going to get it anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by robdiaz2191

Keep being in denial. Parker is a bad PG. Anyone who watches a game can see that.

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Except the announcers, analysts, media outlets, actual Spurs fans, people who don't post every 15 seconds about him, and coaches around the league who keep voting him as an All-Star.