Re: Bowen vs. Danny Green?
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Originally Posted by
Obstructed_View
You've gone from saying that he couldn't play in today's NBA, to saying that he was a terrible shooter from the spots where he never shot, to ... he was actually fouling all along and was getting away with it? :lol
Again, you're conflating offense and defense. Bowen would be a borderline liability in today's league because team's are much better at defending the corner three. That's not because of the hand-checking rule. So stop acting like I'm backtracking when I'm talking about two different things entirely.
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Bowen didn't hand check in the video.
I don't think you know what hand-checking is if you don't think he was doing it. When a player is driving past a defender, and the defender is either pushing him wide with his arms or using his arms to hold the offensive player back that IS hand-checking. Look up the definition.
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There was a rules change to stop hand checking the year before the video, and he still wasn't whistled for it.
Yes. Just like players still get free throws for jumping into guys even though the NBA nominally banned that way of drawing fouls. The league doesn't instantly change just because the rules change on the books.
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You know what Bowen wasn't doing on Tracy's misses? Fouling. At some point if a guy goes his whole career and almost never fouls out, you have to say that either the refs loved him or he just wasn't fouling.
I don't know what Bowen was doing on Tracy's misses, and neither do you apparently.
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I'm sure glad that the refs loved Bruce Bowen so much.
Bowen did seem to get a lot of love from refs. A lot of players who are seen as elite defenders get more leeway than other guys. CWS was just talking about that.
Re: Bowen vs. Danny Green?
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Originally Posted by
Obstructed_View
I think there was a discussion about what defines a stretch 4, and someone idiotically stated that Lamarcus wasn't one, which is almost as stupid as your refusal to give Bowen any credit for pioneering the 3 and D role.. At some point, when people are rejecting a simple definition, like a 3 and D or a stretch 4, you simply have to go to a source to try to nail it down. Since there's not really a dictionary at a library that contains recent basketball terms, I tried to give you a chance to go look at the discussions about 3 and D players that all show the genesis of the role being Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier. Your response was to tell me about his nickname. Either you're just really really fucking stupid or you're just too stubborn to accept how wrong you are on this discussion, no matter how much evidence is produced to confirm it.
The point is, what you're saying isn't evidence. It's not about being stubborn; it's about knowing what's valid to respond to.
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No, I'm not. Bowen's impact as both a defender and three point shooter are relevant to this discussion. He wasn't a one-way player. His three point shooting was a key. He was elite at both roles, which is why he's a pioneer.
Yes, you are totally concatenating the two. The league has evolved to where players need to shoot more from other places along the arc. The league as also evolved to where it's not conducive to play "physical" defense anymore. But those were not the same change. It's not that they aren't both relevant to the discussion, it's that we're talking about them in different contexts. Bowen's shooting would no longer be very helpful in today's league. He'd probably be fine defensively. However, the difference in defensive culture meant his job was easier, so the fact that he has equal numbers to Green is not a good thing for your argument.
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You said that the rules allowed Bowen to dominate
Yeah, no I didn't. I said his job was easier back then, and the "standard" he set isn't achievable today because of the different defensive culture. They have to play with their hands tied behind their back essentially. So Green does as good or almost as good of a job in a harder environment. I think Bowen would have been fine in today's age defensively.
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Your continued fabrications are becoming tiring. He was not atrocious from anywhere. :lol at your spacing argument, which is completely incorrect. Pop's offense relies most strongly on the corner three. I'd tell you to Google it, but you'll get annoyed at someone showing you evidence
He shot 30 fucking percent from the non-corner three. That is atrocious. I don't know what else to tell you. And Pop does rely on the corner three, because it's still the easiest shot three to make. And Green shot better from the left corner last season than Bowen has ever shot. But the wing three is the longest three, so it draw the defender out the most. That is why it's better for spacing. More importantly, the fact that Danny's man has to worry about him moving anywhere along the arc does more to keep him home than Bowen ever did.
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In 2006, Bowen took 245 three pointers, and 23 of them were NOT from the corners. The Spurs offense relied heavily on his shots from that spot, which is why he took the overwhelming majority of them from that spot. Saying he was atrocious from another position where he shot less than ten percent of his threes is not a valid basis to say that he wasn't a good player. I've got three championship trophies to refute it. Are you calculating attempts in the Green numbers you're mysteriously throwing out there?
This is really bad. First, Bowen shot 30 percent there for his whole Spurs career, so there's a decent sample size. Secondly the idea of "ring > 3pt%" is the worse take you've had. And again, didn't say Bowen WASN'T a good player. I did say that he was much worse than Green offensively, because Danny is historically good at what he does. To say Bowen <<< Green on offense is only insulting to a few people who don't want to give Danny his props.
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I never said that Bruce stopped hand checking. I said that he never hand checked in the first place. Bowen always played defense with his feet. It's part of Pop's defensive philosophy, and I submitted Bowen's personal foul numbers before and after to back it up. You posted a video where he doesn't hand check. You posted a video where McGrady has the same number of shot attempts as points in a game they lost because you, for all your whining about it, apparently Googled "Bowen gets schooled". You said that he played under a different set of rules, which is incorrect, since he won two of his three titles after the rules were changed. Have your mom drive you to the library so you can look up, "debunked."
God, you got juvenile at this point. Do you really think Bowen didn't hand-check when it was legal? This is a guy who literally kicked someone in the face, who gets tons of credit from fans for knowing how to play just-legal defense. And you think he wasn't hand-checking? And you can't even see in the vid I posted that he was hand-checking? It's pathetic denial by you. As far as the vid goes, I actually searched "Bowen defense", but there aren't any vids of him having extended work on anyone but maybe Kobe. I was looking for good highlights of his so that I could show his handchecking. But defenders usually only get vids when they look bad, like O-linemen in football.
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Oh, I'm sorry. You said that Bowen had one of the best defenders in his prime backing him up. Are you saying that the defensive player of the year is not one of the best defenders in the league, or are you going to try to argue that Kawhi is not yet in his prime? I think Danny Green is an excellent defender, regardless of who he's playing alongside. It's sad that your argument is so weak that you try to make up shit about Bowen's abilities.
I'm trying to argue that Prime Tim is way better than Kawhi is or will ever be. Tim may have been the GOAT defensive player in his prime. Also, Leonard doesn't back Green up at all. He plays next to him. If Danny gets beat, Kawhi isn't running over to protect the rim. It was just a bad comparison on your part.
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If you think that Bowen wasn't a vital cog in those title teams, I have news for you: You're alone in that. I'd make the retired number argument as well, but I'm sure you've got a ridiculous hypothetical to attach to it.
Again, didn't say that Bowen wasn't critical to those teams. But being relatively good isn't the same thing as being absolutely good, which is something you can't seem to grasp. Bowen was good, and he played an essential role on those teams. He deserves his rings. But that doesn't make him better than Green. Those Spurs teams were completely different in what role-players had to do. Bruce was never going to have to carry the Spurs offensively for stretches of games like Danny had to.
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I'm sure everyone here is going to be fascinated by your extensive list of my false arguments. The NBA defensive culture has changed because every team wants a Bruce Bowen to play solid defense and keep the other team's best player from scoring efficiently. The NBA offensive culture has changed because every team wants a Bruce Bowen to shoot 40 percent from the corners. None of that has anything to do with a rule change, because Bowen did most of his damage in the league after the rule change you just won't shut up about.
You should stop concatenating what I'm saying. It's clear you don't understand it. Bruce would be a one-way player in today's league, because of the evolved culture. That's not about the rules change. And I think you're behind on the times anyway if you think Bruce is still the gold-standard for 3/D players. Are any of the permier defenders just corner shooters nowadays? I know there are some fringe defensive prospects like Roberson and Huestis with OKC who are in that discussion, but their lack of versatility is why no one seems to care about them.
Re: Bowen vs. Danny Green?
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Originally Posted by
Chinook
Again, you're conflating offense and defense. Bowen would be a borderline liability in today's league because team's are much better at defending the corner three. That's not because of the hand-checking rule. So stop acting like I'm backtracking when I'm talking about two different things entirely.
Well then let's separate them, because you've made points about both his shooting and his defense, and each is equally weak. On defense, you said that he hand checks, and his defense was predicated on the rules allowing him to be able to hand check, which is wrong because you clearly didn't know the year that the rule was changed. The video you posted, sorry to say yet again, does not have Bowen hand checking in it. You prove in the rest of the post below that you don't know what a hand check is. You tried to use an old Jordan argument to discredit him and you can't admit that you fucked up, and then you doubled down by saying that he's actually violating the rules but the refs are just ignoring it and letting him get away with it. Again, this is a discussion comparing two really good players. I made the case that Bowen's contributions to the team were greater, and Green's upside is higher. You've tried to make the case that Bowen's not a good shooter or a good defender.
As far as offense, it's odd that you post Green's percentage from the corners as evidence of his shooting ability, but won't accept Bowen's percentage from the corners as evidence. If defenses are better, you won't say that it's because of Bowen's offensive impact, and you like to harp on Bowen's lower percentage from the places he shot less than 15 percent of his threes to refute his dominance as a corner threat.
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Originally Posted by
Chinook
I don't think you know what hand-checking is if you don't think he was doing it. When a player is driving past a defender, and the defender is either pushing him wide with his arms or using his arms to hold the offensive player back that IS hand-checking. Look up the definition.
I know the definition, which is why I'm sure he's not doing it in the video. I'm pretty sure I've posted it in this thread for you. Your definition is pretty close to correct. If you put your hand on them and keep it on them, or if you impede his progress, it's a hand check. Bowen is not impeding progress on McGrady when he's facing up. He just isn't. When a player has his back to you can put a hand with a bent elbow or a forearm against him. When he faces up, no contact that slows down his momentum is allowed. Bowen pushed McGrady after he was past as he was going for that layup. That's not a hand check, it was a push. And if the official wanted to call that he could have. He didn't. The only place you have to run is the "refs love him" argument, which is both ludicrous and par for the course from you.
Pop's "defend with your feet" defensive philosophy wasn't an accident. Bowen knew the definition of hand checking, because there were hand checking rules in place before he even came into the league. It wasn't allowed at all from the baseline to the three point line, so any defender picking up a dribbler at full or half court had to follow the rules. In 2004-2005 they banned it on all spots on the court, but it didn't change his defensive style because Bowen was assigned to defend a ton of scorers who got the ball in isolation outside the three point line.
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Originally Posted by
Chinook
Yes. Just like players still get free throws for jumping into guys even though the NBA nominally banned that way of drawing fouls. The league doesn't instantly change just because the rules change on the books.
Even if that were true, that would be fine if Bowen's career ended in 2005, but Bowen won a title with the Spurs in 2007. Check his stats. His fouls per 36 went up like 0.2 during that time. You're trying to claim that Bowen got away with rules infractions because the refs didn't have time to adjust when Bowen's numbers were virtually the same FOUR YEARS into the rule change.
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Originally Posted by
Chinook
I don't know what Bowen was doing on Tracy's misses, and neither do you apparently.
The box score says he wasn't sending McGrady to the foul line. You won't accept the outcome, you won't accept McGrady's poor shooting percentage, you won't accept that the Spurs held the Rockets to ten points in the last ten minutes of the game, you won't accept that Bowen only had two fouls. I guess you really have no refuge to run to when faced with the stats proving that Bowen didn't suddenly become a fouler when the rules changed. :lol
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Originally Posted by
Chinook
Bowen did seem to get a lot of love from refs. A lot of players who are seen as elite defenders get more leeway than other guys. CWS was just talking about that.
I'm having trouble believing that you don't see that you're playing both sides against the middle in every argument, since if he were hand checking, he wouldn't be seen as an elite defender by the refs.
I recall CWS saying that Bowen wasn't offensively limited and said that every team in the league would love a defender of Bowen's caliber on their team, points you've argued with throughout, even saying that Kobe giving Bowen credit as the best defender he ever faced was meaningless. I missed the part where CWS said that the only reason Bowen was successful is because the refs gave him leeway to hand check.
Re: Bowen vs. Danny Green?
I haven't voted. If I do, I'm sure it'll be Green. But I'll say this: Bowen doesn't allow CP3 to make that kind of drive at the end of Game 7.
Re: Bowen vs. Danny Green?
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Originally Posted by
kobyz
How the hell is Bruce not on the spurs coaching stuff? And some girl like Becky is??? With Bruce as assistance coach the team would have won at least 3 out of the 4 latest titles, Bruce would have hinder Pop's softness and naiveness...
It's possible that Bruce has not wanted to coach. He's probably making about the same money for much less work as a part-time analyst.
Re: Bowen vs. Danny Green?
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Originally Posted by
Chinook
God, you got juvenile at this point. Do you really think Bowen didn't hand-check when it was legal? This is a guy who literally kicked someone in the face, who gets tons of credit from fans for knowing how to play just-legal defense. And you think he wasn't hand-checking? And you can't even see in the vid I posted that he was hand-checking? It's pathetic denial by you. As far as the vid goes, I actually searched "Bowen defense", but there aren't any vids of him having extended work on anyone but maybe Kobe. I was looking for good highlights of his so that I could show his handchecking. But defenders usually only get vids when they look bad, like O-linemen in football.
Bowen didn't hand check above the three point line because it was outlawed his entire career, so he knew where and when he could and could not do it. The defensive philosophy of the team he had his success with stressed not fouling with your hands, instead keeping position and funneling a guy in a certain direction. He was so good at moving his feet he didn't have to make a big adjustment when the rules changed, which is why his fouls didn't suddenly go up. I'm sure he did it below the foul line before 2004. Whether you believe Bowen was dirty or not, there's not any arguing that he gave himself every advantage within the rules, up to and including hand checking where and when it was legal. You have been attempting to make the case that he couldn't defend today because you mistakenly think he played in an era that allowed hand checking, which is not true. I'm showing you evidence that he had success in the era after the rules changed, and had success against some of the most dominant scorers in the game.
Not sure what you think you see in that video, but by the definition you gave of hand checking, it's not there. Bowen pushing McGrady on the hip after he's by is not a hand check. The fact that they showed three different replays of it doesn't mean Bowen did it four times in the game.
Re: Bowen vs. Danny Green?
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Originally Posted by
HarlemHeat37
Most of the older posters will naturally prefer Bowen for a couple of reasons:
1- nostalgia
2- revisionist history
3- old fans love unquantifiable, silly traits like "killer instinct" that have virtually no effect on a game
That's fine, I don't really care, but it's evident..I guess you could argue that the metrics crowd will prefer Green since virtually all his advanced numbers dominate Bowen's..
Exactly. The difference is, metrics aren't inherently biased (though like most things, each individual one requires context); people are.
I don't see a credible argument for Green not being a clear cut better version of Bowen. But that's not a knock on Bowen and it doesn't diminish his accomplishments.
Re: Bowen vs. Danny Green?
I voted bowen but green'a supporters made some good arguments. I think in 2-3 years we'll have a better picture. I'm hoping Danny continues to improve and moves past Bowen.
Re: Bowen vs. Danny Green?
Such a fucking joke this place, putting this pathetic player name around Bowen name!!!
