The August debate in Honour of two All-time great spur Manu and Tony...

Remember 10 years ago? The much heated Manu vs Tony fans debate. That was when both were young..

Now, Manu is potentially at his end and Parker has declined to an extent that he's no longer a top 4 player in this team.

IMO,

pre 2005

Tony>Manu

2004-2007

Manu> Tony

2008-2009

Tony> Manu

2009-2012

Manu > Tony

2013

Tony

2014-2015

Manu..

Damn, I am going to miss the Manu vs tony debates....srs :(

Clearly though, manu had a bigger impact on the championship years though.

So Manu>Tony

apalisoc started a thread about tony parker?

http://i.imgur.com/rfFWukr.gif

You should go back to being timvp, tbh.

I really feel nostalgic today.

Dat Manu vs Tony debates were my favourite off season spurs related discussions

:lol

this is a legit thread.

Nothing to do in August and this thread should end the Manu vs Tony debate imo.

How many of nolyfescrubs alts voted? Tbh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

I really feel nostalgic today.

Dat Manu vs Tony debates were my favourite off season spurs related discussions

:lol

---

You are my favoUrite (lol) poster. It's always nice to get a good laugh every now and then. My favorites are the ones where you post a prediction, and then it turns out to be wrong, or when you're Parkersessed. It's like he brent your old lady over and gave her some "creme fraiche".

See what I did there, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RD2191

How many of nolyfescrubs alts voted? Tbh.

---

Wouldn't be surprised if every vote was his Alt tbh

:lol

Manu has always been the second best player after Tim Duncan, Manu is the beta player

In their prime Manu is a much better player.

2013 Parker or 2011 Manu?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

Wouldn't be surprised if every vote was his Alt tbh

:lol

---

judge not that ye be not judged, the hunchback sees only his companion's hump

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dex

You should go back to being timvp, tbh.

---

This

The answer is obvious.

It's the Red Mamba.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/e27f9224...mnsoo3_400.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

Nothing to do in August and this thread should end the Manu vs Tony debate imo.

---

Yes I am sure this will totally end the debate for good.

I've honestly never understood the need for Spurs fans to prop up one of these guys to put down the other or even to pick sides with them. Appreciating Manu doesn't require hating Parker and supporting Parker doesn't obligate a fan to put down Manu.

Each has come up big in big moments during his career; each has made awful plays at terrible times in crucial situations. Play enough big games and that tends to happen. Ultimately, without both of them, the Spurs don't have all 5 titles, so they're both essential parts of this era of Spurs basketball.

Why not just leave it at that?

I wonder how many accounts apalisoc registered to vote...

I actually voted manu, as much as I hated him after 6 prime Manu was one of my favorite players of all time to watch. Peak Manu was much better than peak Parker imo.

Rasho vs Nazr were great debates too

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MB20

Rasho vs Nazr were great debates too

---

Spurs legend Rasho *

Unfortunately Manu has never been able to finish even 1 full season without injury.

Because of that fact this comparison is pointless. MVParker by a million miles.

Next...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

I've honestly never understood the need for Spurs fans to prop up one of these guys to put down the other or even to pick sides with them. Appreciating Manu doesn't require hating Parker and supporting Parker doesn't obligate a fan to put down Manu.

Each has come up big in big moments during his career; each has made awful plays at terrible times in crucial situations. Play enough big games and that tends to happen. Ultimately, without both of them, the Spurs don't have all 5 titles, so they're both essential parts of this era of Spurs basketball.

Why not just leave it at that?

---

Because Apo and his crew are player fans and not fans of the actual team they supposedly support. Division and derision is the MO for the whole lot.

damn looks like Manu is leading this poll by a good margin.

agree with the Poll IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

damn looks like Manu is leading this poll by a good margin.

agree with the Poll IMO.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dex

The answer is obvious.

It's the Red Mamba.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/e27f9224...mnsoo3_400.gif

---

:lol Bonner calling a play right away :lmao

Lol talking about the 2000's like you were even watching.

Manu easy. :lobt2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

I've honestly never understood the need for Spurs fans to prop up one of these guys to put down the other or even to pick sides with them. Appreciating Manu doesn't require hating Parker and supporting Parker doesn't obligate a fan to put down Manu.

Each has come up big in big moments during his career; each has made awful plays at terrible times in crucial situations. Play enough big games and that tends to happen. Ultimately, without both of them, the Spurs don't have all 5 titles, so they're both essential parts of this era of Spurs basketball.

Why not just leave it at that?

---

Agendas gonna agenda.

Player fans and agendas are what they are, but this nonsense of pitting Parker and Manu against each other, with fans of one player being basically unable to appreciate the other player has been going since at least 2005.

Like I say, I've never understood it, but I guess it will be what it will be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

this is a legit thread.

Nothing to do in August and this thread should end the Manu vs Tony debate imo.

---

No im pretty sure it wont end them and they will go on for years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jodelo

:lol Bonner calling a play right away :lmao

---

An ISO play, no less. :lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dex

An ISO play, no less. :lmao

---

:lol Any reaction from Pop?

MVParker in his prime got us to a finals

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 313

MVParker in his prime got us to a finals

---

By himself right? Nobody could stop Daniel Gibson at that time, thank god MVPorker was there to save us, Bowen was non existent Horry a dumb enforcer Duncan a wanker and Manu...poor Manu even when he had a net positive bigger than TP and Duncan combined during the whole series he wasnt MVP worthy because A)6th man and B)Wasnt marrying the bitch of the moment.
Why such a young monster only carried the Spurs to just one finals?

LOL that Bonner gif! Cool

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by z0sa

Lol talking about the 2000's like you were even watching.

---

I started watching 2002..Manu's rookie year

smh... why can't we appreciate both?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElNono

smh... why can't we appreciate both?

---

I dont know, Superman saves a retard kid but that doesnt make the kid a hero.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElNono

smh... why can't we appreciate both?

---

I guess in 2008 I posted something like I can't stand guards who always hold the ball when somebody is open looking for the home run, just pass the damn ball
But you know, that was baseball...so I can't answer your question.

Who isn't appreciating both?

Manu was almost always more clutch than Parker when it mattered (e.g. championship aspirations), tbh


Where was TP in the 4th in game 6 in 2003 when we were down 10 to the Nets at home? On the pine. Where was Manu? On the court, throwing his body around, and had that key int return score to fuel the comeback.

Where was TP in the 4th in game 7 in 2005 when we were clinging to a slim lead against the Pistons? On the pine, most of the time. Brent Barry and Manu were trusted to be PG by committee.

Where was TP in the Cleveland series in 2007? Dominating the court, tearing up the Cavs' porous defense. Then again, it was Boobie Gibson, and LeBron chose to guard Manu instead most of the time, limiting Manu's effectiveness while TP won FMVP.

Where was TP in 2014? In game 6 at OKC, Manu made the biggest shot of the game -- a 3 off a screen to put us up 1, otherwise we would have had to foul and probably would have lost that game. TP? In the locker room. In game 5 of the Miami series? 0-11 when the game was close and easily the worst player on the court. Made a string of shots at the end when we were already up by a comfortable margin. Manu? Singlehandedly brought us back from down 16 in the first quarter with his shooting and playmaking, as the Heat were looking to put us away early and force a game 6. He and Kawhi were unstoppable, and he capped off the rally with a statement dunk over Bosh which is indisputably a top 50 Finals play of all-time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikeanaro

I dont know, Superman saves a retard kid but that doesnt make the kid a hero.

---

Manu will always be Superman and Tony Parker will always be viewed as Spider-man, tbqfh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 313

MVParker in his prime got us to a finals

---

I chose Parker. I have to go with the PG as my deciding factor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UNT Eagles 2016

Manu was almost always more clutch than Parker when it mattered (e.g. championship aspirations), tbh


Where was TP in the 4th in game 6 in 2003 when we were down 10 to the Nets at home? On the pine. Where was Manu? On the court, throwing his body around, and had that key int return score to fuel the comeback.

Where was TP in the 4th in game 7 in 2005 when we were clinging to a slim lead against the Pistons? On the pine, most of the time. Brent Barry and Manu were trusted to be PG by committee.

Where was TP in the Cleveland series in 2007? Dominating the court, tearing up the Cavs' porous defense. Then again, it was Boobie Gibson, and LeBron chose to guard Manu instead most of the time, limiting Manu's effectiveness while TP won FMVP.

Where was TP in 2014? In game 6 at OKC, Manu made the biggest shot of the game -- a 3 off a screen to put us up 1, otherwise we would have had to foul and probably would have lost that game. TP? In the locker room. In game 5 of the Miami series? 0-11 when the game was close and easily the worst player on the court. Made a string of shots at the end when we were already up by a comfortable margin. Manu? Singlehandedly brought us back from down 16 in the first quarter with his shooting and playmaking, as the Heat were looking to put us away early and force a game 6. He and Kawhi were unstoppable, and he capped off the rally with a statement dunk over Bosh which is indisputably a top 50 Finals play of all-time.

---

Look, I love both (I voted for Manu) but I can play this game too.

Look to game 6 2013, where were Parker and Manu that game?

Manu fucked us repeatedly, and Parker had a legendary stepback 3 pointer to tie the game over Lebron and then followed it up with a steal and go ahead basket that shouldve sealed the title (unfortunately Manu and Kawhi couldnt execute down the stretch), so lets not act like Parker hasnt had his fair share of big game moments.

Manu has been more clutch, absolutely, but Parker also has had his moments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spurs 4 The Win

Look, I love both (I voted for Manu) but I can play this game too.

Look to game 6 2013, where were Parker and Manu that game?

Manu fucked us repeatedly, and Parker had a legendary stepback 3 pointer to tie the game over Lebron and then followed it up with a steal and go ahead basket that shouldve sealed the title (unfortunately Manu and Kawhi couldnt execute down the stretch), so lets not act like Parker hasnt had his fair share of big game moments.

Manu has been more clutch, absolutely, but Parker also has had his moments.

---

Parker's "big game moments" mostly led to heartbreak, while Manu's "big game moments" led to legendary success. Let's not forget who had the ball in his hands and hit the side of the backboard on a runner that would have won "six" at the buzzer.

2016 dropping truth bombs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spurs 4 The Win

Look, I love both (I voted for Manu) but I can play this game too.

Look to game 6 2013, where were Parker and Manu that game?

Manu fucked us repeatedly, and Parker had a legendary stepback 3 pointer to tie the game over Lebron and then followed it up with a steal and go ahead basket that shouldve sealed the title (unfortunately Manu and Kawhi couldnt execute down the stretch), so lets not act like Parker hasnt had his fair share of big game moments.

Manu has been more clutch, absolutely, but Parker also has had his moments.

---

I can play this game too, Lakers-Spurs 2004, were was TP after game 2?

3/11 Game 7 vs Pistons 2005

Where was he during games 6 and 7 vs Dallas 2006? brick house

Vs Nets 2003 4 points -10 during game 6

Game 4 CLE 2007= TP 24 points +2, Manu 27 points +13

2008 vs Lakers he was taking 20 shots per game always a negative.

2009 No Manu= First round exit vs Dallas

2010 The Dallas sweep, Manu had 3 better games but in game 4 TP had a better game.

2011 Memphis what a series, Manu played with a broken arm, Game 5 Manu 33 points +10, TP 24 points -5
Game 6 TP 23 points -10, TD had a bad game too 12 points -12, Manu 16 ponts -7

2012 OKC Game 5, TOSB Gino 34 points +13, TP 20 points -1
Game 6 TP shot 12/27 for 29 points -5, Manu 4/12 for 10 points and somehow ended with -14 TP CLEARLY HAD A BETTER CLOSER

2013 IT HURTS Game 6 mega shitobili 9 points -21, TP 6/23 for 19 points +8 but there was a new chance in
Game 7 Manu 6/12 for 18 Points +6, TP 3/12 for 10 points -4

2014 THE 5 IS REAL FAGGY YEAR! Vs Miami Game 4 Manu 7 points +27, TP 19 points +26.
Game 5 for 5!!! Manu 19 points +21, TP had one of the worst chokejobs ever shooting 1-11 and during garbage time he went 7/7 the game was won by 17 points, TP 16 Points +1.

2015 Do I need to explain that? No.
To resume you voted right, when the fire burns Manu is there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFBlue

Because Apo and his crew are player fans and not fans of the actual team they supposedly support. Division and derision is the MO for the whole lot.

---

I vote Parker just to wad the panties of Apasadsac and her bff Dykeanoral:bobo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Axegrinder

I vote Parker just to wad the panties of Apasadsac and her bff Dykeanoral:bobo

---

You Cockgrinder...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

I've honestly never understood the need for Spurs fans to prop up one of these guys to put down the other or even to pick sides with them. Appreciating Manu doesn't require hating Parker and supporting Parker doesn't obligate a fan to put down Manu.

Each has come up big in big moments during his career; each has made awful plays at terrible times in crucial situations. Play enough big games and that tends to happen. Ultimately, without both of them, the Spurs don't have all 5 titles, so they're both essential parts of this era of Spurs basketball.

Why not just leave it at that?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFBlue

Because Apo and his crew are player fans and not fans of the actual team they supposedly support. Division and derision is the MO for the whole lot.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

Player fans and agendas are what they are, but this nonsense of pitting Parker and Manu against each other, with fans of one player being basically unable to appreciate the other player has been going since at least 2005.

Like I say, I've never understood it, but I guess it will be what it will be.

---

:worthy: FromWayDowntown
:worthy: AFBlue

i hate this debate because it draws all the idiots like moths to a flame. they're both spurs, they're both friends, they both made big sacrifices, constantly improved, and made big plays for this team- reasonable fans couldnt ask for anything more. sure they've played through injury and looked like shit sometimes, it happens to every player, even a top 5 all time guy like duncan. if you want to get mad at someone, get mad at PATFO for not getting enough help in the late 2000s that the team still depends on these two to be the perimeter playmakers.

Tony had some great series, against the suns, the hornets, and 2012 and 2013 he played at a very high level regardless of matchups. Those teams dont make the WCF and finals without duncan, leonard, splitter, green etc but even if they hadn't, parker hit another gear and was really good overall.

I still think manu was better in 05 which in terms of difficulty is our greatest run IMO, nash's suns were stacked with the MVP, 3 all nba players, COY, best record in the league, followed by the wallace pistons for a defensive battle. Generally speaking, in terms of size, range, raw playmaking ability manu is the more versatile player, in terms of intangibles the more impactful player (loose balls, charges, etc), but as a scorer/playmaker parker at the top of his game is right up there, its not easy to attack the rim like those guys do and it takes its toll to play that way. it will be a long time before the spurs have another guard as good as either of these were in their respective primes, regardless who you think is better. and yes, they have earned the right to keep playing, loyalty and stability are part of the spurs core values, and like pop says, its just a game, life is bigger, life goes on.

Love both players and don't want to get drawn into stupidity. But Parker had the better career. Ginobili at his best was a better player, but that's only part of it.

Yes lets "honor" them by pitting them against each. Geez, I'd hate to see your version of "dishonor".....which this pretty much is.

You have to pick one is not a big deal, one idiot was talking about stupidity and chose career over player, thats like saying you have 2 friends and you pick the rich one even when the other is better person better friend and made sacrifices to help you.
Just pick one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

Player fans and agendas are what they are, but this nonsense of pitting Parker and Manu against each other, with fans of one player being basically unable to appreciate the other player has been going since at least 2005.

Like I say, I've never understood it, but I guess it will be what it will be.

---

Yep, most of it started from their countries fans though, they are player fans usually and not really team fans (Not all of them but some). We will see when either retire who sticks around or who does not, some will leave with their fave player IMO and I would bet on it.

Spurs fan through and through so don't get it either, love the whole team except Bonner whom I don't even want to fail in reality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

I've honestly never understood the need for Spurs fans to prop up one of these guys to put down the other or even to pick sides with them. Appreciating Manu doesn't require hating Parker and supporting Parker doesn't obligate a fan to put down Manu.

Each has come up big in big moments during his career; each has made awful plays at terrible times in crucial situations. Play enough big games and that tends to happen. Ultimately, without both of them, the Spurs don't have all 5 titles, so they're both essential parts of this era of Spurs basketball.

Why not just leave it at that?

---

Well, I don't understand you and those guys saying 'but but we love both, both are Spurs players, both were essential for the Spurs success...'

That means I should feel the same for Finley than DRob or Tim?

A player can play better than other player on the same team??

It's stupid to think a sports fan doesn't like more a player than other on the same team. Be honest, we'll always have a favorite over other.

Obviously it doesn't obligate you to hate the other player but saying we should like both the same way sounds very childish.

Just pick one. What's the big deal?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YGWHI

It's stupid to think a sports fan doesn't like more a player than other on the same team. Be honest, we'll always have a favorite over other.

Obviously it doesn't obligate you to hate the other player but saying we should like both the same way sounds very childish.

Just pick one. What's the big deal?

---

If that was the debate, that would be fine. But around here, it's never the debate.

I don't think I've ever said I think anyone has to like both equally.

But those who prefer Parker (in a lot of cases) make their arguments for Parker by trying to diminish Manu. Those who prefer Manu (in a lot of cases) make their arguments for him by trying to diminish Parker. My objection isn't with fans liking one player more than another. It's with the notion that liking one requires you to despise another.

I don't really care which one anyone prefers, but the continuing efforts to suggest that either Tony or Manu hasn't been consistently good or that either Tony or Manu hasn't been crucial to the Spurs titles since 2003 is absolutely ridiculous.

Parker wouldn't be a 4 time champ without Manu. Manu wouldn't be a 4 time champ without Parker. And either of them would be HoF without Tim. Tim himself wouldn't be going for 6 without the little guys. I'm lucky to have all of them as a Spurs supporter. This is all a true Spurs fan knows. The secondary debates are just Spurstalk fluff. Excuse me while I count the rings...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

If that was the debate, that would be fine. But around here, it's never the debate.

I don't think I've ever said I think anyone has to like both equally.

But those who prefer Parker (in a lot of cases) make their arguments for Parker by trying to diminish Manu. Those who prefer Manu (in a lot of cases) make their arguments for him by trying to diminish Parker. My objection isn't with fans liking one player more than another. It's with the notion that liking one requires you to despise another.

I don't really care which one anyone prefers, but the continuing efforts to suggest that either Tony or Manu hasn't been consistently good or that either Tony or Manu hasn't been crucial to the Spurs titles since 2003 is absolutely ridiculous.

---

I said before that I agree wih you about liking one doesn't mean you hate the other player or throw him under the bus, but again, these overreactions just for a poll of who's better player/playmaker/whatever? If there is a real problem with the comparison, you're amplifying that problem.

I don't know man...maybe I'm a simple guy but I read, who's better and I chose one. It doesn't make me love the Spurs less than you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YGWHI

I said before that I agree wih you about liking one doesn't mean you hate the other player or throw him under the bus, but again, these overreactions just for a poll of who's better player/playmaker/whatever? If there is a real problem with the comparison, you're amplifying that problem.

---

We have this poll/debate frequently around here (if it isn't after every game or cluster of games in some way, shape, or form, it's at least several times a year in the same way, shape, or form), and the discussion is always the same and always ends up with the same factions propping their guy by putting down the other. Trust me, my point isn't about questioning the comparison; it's with the way the discussion always goes.

And it's not at all about who loves the Spurs the most.

It's about the devolution of the forum and a plea for a return to good basketball talk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

And it's not at all about who loves the Spurs the most.

---

Well...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFBlue

are player fans and not fans of the actual team they supposedly support.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sean Cagney

they are player fans usually and not really team fans...Spurs fan through and through so don't get it either, love the whole team

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dweaver99027

I'm lucky to have all of them as a Spurs supporter. This is all a true Spurs fan knows

---

If I like more some Spurs' players than others I'm not a true Spurs fan?

These guys like all Spurs' players in the history of franchise equally?

Not sure if this a case of demagogy or pure stupidity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hoops Czar

Manu will always be Superman and Tony Parker will always be viewed as Spider-man, tbqfh.

---

The problem with that is everyone knows Marvel rules. I think Manu being The Vision and Tony being The Boy Wonder is closer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YGWHI

Well...If I like more some Spurs' players than others I'm not a true Spurs fan?

These guys like all Spurs' players in the history of franchise equally?

Not sure if this a case of demagogy or pure stupidity.

---

It's not the question, it's the source. If Apo hadn't run down Parker at every opportunity over the last year, I might believe this "debate" was sincere and benign.

And to answer your question, no I don't like every player in franchise history equally. If I had to choose, right now I'd say Parker.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YGWHI

Well…

---

Well, none of the posts that you quoted is mine, so don't lump me into that group.

I've expressed my frustrations with the level of the discourse around here, not with the degree to which any fans support their team.

Liking a player over another is normal. It's when someone goes the extra mile to not only prop his own guy but also put down the other that true fandom ends and obsession begins... in the 10% of cases when it's not deliberate trolling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UNT Eagles 2016

Parker's "big game moments" mostly led to heartbreak, while Manu's "big game moments" led to legendary success. Let's not forget who had the ball in his hands and hit the side of the backboard on a runner that would have won "six" at the buzzer.

---

Are you kidding me ? Have you forgotten the dumb foul on Nowitzki that sent game 7 to overtime in 2006 ? One of the worst Spurs losses of history ?

I'm a big Ginobili fan and I think these threads are useless and stupid but please get your facts straight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macca76

Are you kidding me ? Have you forgotten the dumb foul on Nowitzki that sent game 7 to overtime in 2006 ? One of the worst Spurs losses of history ?

I'm a big Ginobili fan and I think these threads are useless and stupid but please get your facts straight.

---

Yeah. I still remember the WTF was he thinking? feeling when that happened. That was a horrible moment. Don't foul and don't give a wide open 3 and they hold on to win...and Manu fouls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macca76

Are you kidding me ? Have you forgotten the dumb foul on Nowitzki that sent game 7 to overtime in 2006 ? One of the worst Spurs losses of history ?

I'm a big Ginobili fan and I think these threads are useless and stupid but please get your facts straight.

---

Have you forgotten who was guarding Ray Allen during that 3 in 6?
In that game 7 vs Dallas Duncan took 24 shots he was 12/24 and -7, Finley was 4/8 -5, Parker took 18 shots for 24 points 9/18 -4, Manu 6/11 for 23 points -3.
So Duncan and Parker were shooting bricks during the whole game, that didnt affect the outcome do you?

Every Dallas player was a net positive excepting dirk that was 11/20 37 points 0, Jason Terry 27 points +13, Josh Howard Stackhouse and Harris +7, Dampier +1 and that scrub Diop made the typical scrub dance on the Spurs shooting 3/3 7 points +4 on 10 minutes.
No matter how you look at this, Spurs had no chance playing like that in that particular game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macca76

Are you kidding me ? Have you forgotten the dumb foul on Nowitzki that sent game 7 to overtime in 2006 ? One of the worst Spurs losses of history ?

I'm a big Ginobili fan and I think these threads are useless and stupid but please get your facts straight.

---

One of the most painful losses because of the rivalry, I would wager that losing to an 8th seed Memphis, and getting swept by the suns was worse, or losing the finals or in the 1st round as defending champs. It's easy to forget that Dallas had a great team, were up 3-1, and destroyed us in OT.

Manu shitting all over Porker. :lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YGWHI

Well...





If I like more some Spurs' players than others I'm not a true Spurs fan?

These guys like all Spurs' players in the history of franchise equally?

Not sure if this a case of demagogy or pure stupidity.

---

No I like some more than others as well, but I don't hate on a player on the team all day long and post about it or compare two players over and over trying to prove one is better when all I care about is the team winning in reality. None of that is relevant really, if one does better a certain game or year (Or all times) I am happy for them and they helped the team win games or titles, period. That is all I care about. I like Duncan more than anyone on the team, but I don't want a player to fail or one to do better for an agenda or my own likes because in the end it's about winning.

This is a good example of why you need 2 rankings- career value and peak value. If you are talking peak value, Manu is the clear winner. We mostly agree that his 2005 playoff run was better than Parker's best. But I would rank Parker higher in his career value, as a guy who carried a heavier load, year in and out, and managed to stay on the court more. Parker has 6 Allstar games and Manu 2. Parker has finished higher than Manu in regular season MVP voting. He has played nearly 10,000 more minutes than Ginobili, because he isn't hurt most of the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikeanaro

Have you forgotten who was guarding Ray Allen during that 3 in 6?
In that game 7 vs Dallas Duncan took 24 shots he was 12/24 and -7, Finley was 4/8 -5, Parker took 18 shots for 24 points 9/18 -4, Manu 6/11 for 23 points -3.
So Duncan and Parker were shooting bricks during the whole game, that didnt affect the outcome do you?

Every Dallas player was a net positive excepting dirk that was 11/20 37 points 0, Jason Terry 27 points +13, Josh Howard Stackhouse and Harris +7, Dampier +1 and that scrub Diop made the typical scrub dance on the Spurs shooting 3/3 7 points +4 on 10 minutes.
No matter how you look at this, Spurs had no chance playing like that in that particular game.

---

Spurs had every chance of winning that game, and actually without the foul they would have. And Parker and Duncan didn't have a shitty game at all, they were shooting at a 50% rate while playing 45 and 50 minutes in that game. Duncan had a monster game : 41 pts, 15 reds, 6 asts, 3 blocks :
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...605220SAS.html

We should have won this game, it was my first playoffs watching the Spurs and I clearly remember saying to myself WTF ??!! What did he do ?? We would have been clear favorites against Phoenix and then Miami.
I love Manu but he has some weird moments at the end of games so please don't act as if TP is a loser and Manu a hero. Big news for you, they're not perfect ! No player is.
They're both awesome players, and we were very lucky to get them on the team.

This whole TP vs manu is so lame and pathetic and Apalithing is really such a douche to have awaken this whole hate shit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macca76

Spurs had every chance of winning that game, and actually without the foul they would have. And Parker and Duncan didn't have a shitty game at all, they were shooting at a 50% rate while playing 45 and 50 minutes in that game. Duncan had a monster game : 41 pts, 15 reds, 6 asts, 3 blocks :
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...605220SAS.html

We should have won this game, it was my first playoffs watching the Spurs and I clearly remember saying to myself WTF ??!! What did he do ?? We would have been clear favorites against Phoenix and then Miami.
I love Manu but he has some weird moments at the end of games so please don't act as if TP is a loser and Manu a hero. Big news for you, they're not perfect ! No player is.
They're both awesome players, and we were very lucky to get them on the team.

This whole TP vs manu is so lame and pathetic and Apalithing is really such a douche to have awaken this whole hate shit.

---

When you take 24 shots you have to shoot more than 50% or you are in Kobe/Westbrook territory also he had 23 FTA for those 41 points.
They were all the game down, and at the end Manu sunk that 3 and fouled Dirk during the next play, then missed a layup and Tim failed to capitalize it, there was an OT and they failed.
Dallas was the better team sometimes you have to lose thats life they were 3-1 and Spurs overall numbers were negative like I said in my last post, sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikeanaro

When you take 24 shots you have to shoot more than 50% or you are in Kobe/Westbrook territory also he had 23 FTA for those 41 points.
They were all the game down, and at the end Manu sunk that 3 and fouled Dirk during the next play, then missed a layup and Tim failed to capitalize it, there was an OT and they failed.
Dallas was the better team sometimes you have to lose thats life they were 3-1 and Spurs overall numbers were negative like I said in my last post, sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you.

---

Tim shot 50% and had a TS% of .601. Chucking bricks? You're an idiot.

One is PG and the other a SG, what´s the point?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T_L_P

Tim shot 50% and had a TS% of .601. Chucking bricks? You're an idiot.

---

Your momma, Tim also missed the final shot spin that shit losa.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikeanaro

Your momma, Tim also missed the final shot spin that shit losa.

---

So you accuse Duncan of chucking, I prove you wrong with the numbers (according to you shooting 50% is chucking but 51% isn't) and you have no retort.

Also, your overuse of +/- is laughable. Literally nobody thinks it means anything. If Bonner enters for the final shot of the game and Mills throws up a full-court three for the win, his +/- is a +3. Does that mean he played well or did anything? Absolutely not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T_L_P

So you accuse Duncan of chucking, I prove you wrong with the numbers (according to you shooting 50% is chucking but 51% isn't) and you have no retort.

Also, your overuse of +/- is laughable. Literally nobody thinks it means anything. If Bonner enters for the final shot of the game and Mills throws up a full-court three for the win, his +/- is a +3. Does that mean he played well or did anything? Absolutely not.

---

He took his fair share of shots, 24 is a latte, the whole team played worse than Dallas during the whole game it was a miracle that Manu 3, also Spurs were against all odds Dallas was 3-1, 3-2,3-3 and our guys failed at home.
LOL!!!!!! you think +/- means nothing? well go back to shooting percentages then, If Bon hits the 3 well... hits the 3 numbers dont lie, if he played only during that play then he played good, are you against that?
http://gothicginobili.com/wp-content...1.30.56-AM.png
You think everything is nonsense do you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikeanaro

He took his fair share of shots, 24 is a latte, the whole team played worse than Dallas during the whole game it was a miracle that Manu 3, also Spurs were against all odds Dallas was 3-1, 3-2,3-3 and our guys failed at home.
LOL!!!!!! you think +/- means nothing? well go back to shooting percentages then, If Bon hits the 3 well... hits the 3 numbers dont lie, if he played only during that play then he played good, are you against that?
http://gothicginobili.com/wp-content...1.30.56-AM.png
You think everything is nonsense do you?

---

truth bomb

THE REAL 2005 FMVP!
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l#advanced::22

The real 2007 MVP
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l#advanced::22

I don't think Manu has had to be benched in the playoffs in favor of his backups so I go with him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop

I don't think Manu has had to be benched in the playoffs in favor of his backups so I go with him.

---

:lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikeanaro

He took his fair share of shots, 24 is a latte, the whole team played worse than Dallas during the whole game it was a miracle that Manu 3, also Spurs were against all odds Dallas was 3-1, 3-2,3-3 and our guys failed at home.
LOL!!!!!! you think +/- means nothing? well go back to shooting percentages then, If Bon hits the 3 well... hits the 3 numbers dont lie, if he played only during that play then he played good, are you against that?
http://gothicginobili.com/wp-content...1.30.56-AM.png
You think everything is nonsense do you?

---

I'm not disagreeing with your stance about Dallas. Underrated team and we didn't play welll enough to win.

However, Tim was chucking up shots? Did you even watch the game? He was still injured and faced more defensive attention than anyone he's ever played with (including a still elite Robinson). He played a pretty good game, and a great series, despite the +/-, which is an awful stat.

Again, the stat merely reflects the lineup/opposing lineup. It has very little to do with how well the individual played. This is common knowledge. Nobody has ever used it to analyse how well someone played, except for you (and you seem to use it religiously for some reason).

That graph you used shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Those are Net Ratings. That combines lots of other data, and it is taken from a much larger pool of games (often a full season worth of them).

But single-game +/-? You think that means anything? Again, you can shoot 0-30, have 10 turnovers, and be burnt on the defensive end, and still have a positive +/-, if the other four guys on your team are on fire. Likewise, you can shoot 30-30 and dominate, but if your other four teammates miss every FG, your +/- will be a negative.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

truth bomb

---

You know, according to +/-, Parker was a about five times better than Kawhi this postseason.

But I bet the +/- numbers are wrong for you know? :rollin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T_L_P

I'm not disagreeing with your stance about Dallas. Underrated team and we didn't play welll enough to win.

However, Tim was chucking up shots? Did you even watch the game? He was still injured and faced more defensive attention than anyone he's ever played with (including a still elite Robinson). He played a pretty good game, and a great series, despite the +/-, which is an awful stat.

Again, the stat merely reflects the lineup/opposing lineup. It has very little to do with how well the individual played. This is common knowledge. Nobody has ever used it to analyse how well someone played, except for you (and you seem to use it religiously for some reason).

That graph you used shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Those are Net Ratings. That combines lots of other data, and it is taken from a much larger pool of games (often a full season worth of them).

But single-game +/-? You think that means anything? Again, you can shoot 0-30, have 10 turnovers, and be burnt on the defensive end, and still have a positive +/-, if the other four guys on your team are on fire. Likewise, you can shoot 30-30 and dominate, but if your other four teammates miss every FG, your +/- will be a negative.

---

Of course it means something, that 0-30 example of yours is ridiculous you will still have a negative impact and your net will be far away from the good guys, and if you shoot 30-30 while dominating your impact will be a HUGE difference vs your teammates how long have you been watching? 2 weeks? its alarming how Porker fans try to reverse any fact trying to drag down other players while ditching data that shows he sucks.
According to guys like you data is useless, subjective ¨eye tests¨ are the measurement stick, were the hell are your subjective eyes when TP is dribbling for hours and killing the offense?

NBA analysts wont use +/- impacts because it could hurt the business they will tell you ¨LOOK WESTBROOK MADE 60 POINTS SHOOTING 10/60, 60 POINTS PEOPLE!¨ ¨JAMES HARDEN MADE 80 SHOOTING 15/90 AND 60 FTA¨ they wont talk about refs helping them and how they kill their teams doing that shit, you think they are gonna kill the cash cow?.
All of you are a lost cause.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikeanaro

Of course it means something, that 0-30 example of yours is ridiculous you will still have a negative impact and your net will be far away from the good guys, and if you shoot 30-30 while dominating your impact will be a HUGE difference vs your teammates how long have you been watching? 2 weeks? its alarming how Porker fans try to reverse any fact trying to drag down other players while ditching data that shows he sucks.
According to guys like you data is useless, subjective ¨eye tests¨ are the measurement stick, were the hell are your subjective eyes when TP is dribbling for hours and killing the offense?

NBA analysts wont use +/- impacts because it could hurt the business they will tell you ¨LOOK WESTBROOK MADE 60 POINTS SHOOTING 10/60, 60 POINTS PEOPLE!¨ ¨JAMES HARDEN MADE 80 SHOOTING 15/90 AND 60 FTA¨ they wont talk about refs helping them and how they kill their teams doing that shit, you think they are gonna kill the cash cow?.
All of you are a lost cause.

---

Again, you are talking Net Ratings, and not single-game +/-.

If the Spurs win by 10 and Parker plays all 48 minutes with a '0' in every stat-line, his +/- for that game will be a +10.

If Duncan plays all 48 minutes and drops a 50/20/10 on perfect shooting, his +/- for that game will be a +10.

That's why the stat sucks. It's about lineups and strength of opponent; not an indicator of an individual's game.

Why do you call me a Parker fan? I hate Tony as a person, and think last season he was among the worst rotation players in the league - and I don't see that changing anytime soon. He's never been the Spurs' best player and often gets overrated because he puts up good raw stats.

OTOH, I think Manu is one of the most effective players ever, and he's far greater than Tony is.

I was really only contesting your point about Duncan chucking. Anyone who watched the Dallas series knows he was killing it. He shot 50%, which is fine for a big-man. It's not Westbrook/Kobe levels which is what you said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T_L_P

Again, you are talking Net Ratings, and not single-game +/-.

If the Spurs win by 10 and Parker plays all 48 minutes with a '0' in every stat-line, his +/- for that game will be a +10.

If Duncan plays all 48 minutes and drops a 50/20/10 on perfect shooting, his +/- for that game will be a +10.

That's why the stat sucks. It's about lineups and strength of opponent; not an indicator of an individual's game.

Why do you call me a Parker fan? I hate Tony as a person, and think last season he was among the worst rotation players in the league - and I don't see that changing anytime soon. He's never been the Spurs' best player and often gets overrated because he puts up good raw stats.

OTOH, I think Manu is one of the most effective players ever, and he's far greater than Tony is.

I was really only contesting your point about Duncan chucking. Anyone who watched the Dallas series knows he was killing it. He shot 50%, which is fine for a big-man. It's not Westbrook/Kobe levels which is what you said.

---

The thing is I consider 50% a good percentage when you take 15 shots, but when you take 24 or some high number like that you are giving a lot to the other team too.
Thats why he got a negative impact bigger than Manu and TP even scoring 43 points.
If Parker plays all 48 minutes and gets a +10 it means he moved the ball in a positive way at least, he wont be getting any assists but his impact was positive made the right passes, etc.
If Duncan scores like you said and ends the game with a +10 it means a) other players in his team sucked b) the other team was really good and put some competition.
Its what it is really and it works for every player, thats why Spurs always kept Bon Bon the +/- king.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RD2191

Manu shitting all over Porker. :lol

---