The August debate in Honour of two All-time great spur Manu and Tony...

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Originally Posted by Mikeanaro

Have you forgotten who was guarding Ray Allen during that 3 in 6?
In that game 7 vs Dallas Duncan took 24 shots he was 12/24 and -7, Finley was 4/8 -5, Parker took 18 shots for 24 points 9/18 -4, Manu 6/11 for 23 points -3.
So Duncan and Parker were shooting bricks during the whole game, that didnt affect the outcome do you?

Every Dallas player was a net positive excepting dirk that was 11/20 37 points 0, Jason Terry 27 points +13, Josh Howard Stackhouse and Harris +7, Dampier +1 and that scrub Diop made the typical scrub dance on the Spurs shooting 3/3 7 points +4 on 10 minutes.
No matter how you look at this, Spurs had no chance playing like that in that particular game.

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Spurs had every chance of winning that game, and actually without the foul they would have. And Parker and Duncan didn't have a shitty game at all, they were shooting at a 50% rate while playing 45 and 50 minutes in that game. Duncan had a monster game : 41 pts, 15 reds, 6 asts, 3 blocks :
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...605220SAS.html

We should have won this game, it was my first playoffs watching the Spurs and I clearly remember saying to myself WTF ??!! What did he do ?? We would have been clear favorites against Phoenix and then Miami.
I love Manu but he has some weird moments at the end of games so please don't act as if TP is a loser and Manu a hero. Big news for you, they're not perfect ! No player is.
They're both awesome players, and we were very lucky to get them on the team.

This whole TP vs manu is so lame and pathetic and Apalithing is really such a douche to have awaken this whole hate shit.

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Originally Posted by Macca76

Spurs had every chance of winning that game, and actually without the foul they would have. And Parker and Duncan didn't have a shitty game at all, they were shooting at a 50% rate while playing 45 and 50 minutes in that game. Duncan had a monster game : 41 pts, 15 reds, 6 asts, 3 blocks :
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...605220SAS.html

We should have won this game, it was my first playoffs watching the Spurs and I clearly remember saying to myself WTF ??!! What did he do ?? We would have been clear favorites against Phoenix and then Miami.
I love Manu but he has some weird moments at the end of games so please don't act as if TP is a loser and Manu a hero. Big news for you, they're not perfect ! No player is.
They're both awesome players, and we were very lucky to get them on the team.

This whole TP vs manu is so lame and pathetic and Apalithing is really such a douche to have awaken this whole hate shit.

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When you take 24 shots you have to shoot more than 50% or you are in Kobe/Westbrook territory also he had 23 FTA for those 41 points.
They were all the game down, and at the end Manu sunk that 3 and fouled Dirk during the next play, then missed a layup and Tim failed to capitalize it, there was an OT and they failed.
Dallas was the better team sometimes you have to lose thats life they were 3-1 and Spurs overall numbers were negative like I said in my last post, sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you.

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Originally Posted by Mikeanaro

When you take 24 shots you have to shoot more than 50% or you are in Kobe/Westbrook territory also he had 23 FTA for those 41 points.
They were all the game down, and at the end Manu sunk that 3 and fouled Dirk during the next play, then missed a layup and Tim failed to capitalize it, there was an OT and they failed.
Dallas was the better team sometimes you have to lose thats life they were 3-1 and Spurs overall numbers were negative like I said in my last post, sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you.

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Tim shot 50% and had a TS% of .601. Chucking bricks? You're an idiot.

One is PG and the other a SG, what´s the point?

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Originally Posted by T_L_P

Tim shot 50% and had a TS% of .601. Chucking bricks? You're an idiot.

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Your momma, Tim also missed the final shot spin that shit losa.

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Originally Posted by Mikeanaro

Your momma, Tim also missed the final shot spin that shit losa.

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So you accuse Duncan of chucking, I prove you wrong with the numbers (according to you shooting 50% is chucking but 51% isn't) and you have no retort.

Also, your overuse of +/- is laughable. Literally nobody thinks it means anything. If Bonner enters for the final shot of the game and Mills throws up a full-court three for the win, his +/- is a +3. Does that mean he played well or did anything? Absolutely not.

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Originally Posted by T_L_P

So you accuse Duncan of chucking, I prove you wrong with the numbers (according to you shooting 50% is chucking but 51% isn't) and you have no retort.

Also, your overuse of +/- is laughable. Literally nobody thinks it means anything. If Bonner enters for the final shot of the game and Mills throws up a full-court three for the win, his +/- is a +3. Does that mean he played well or did anything? Absolutely not.

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He took his fair share of shots, 24 is a latte, the whole team played worse than Dallas during the whole game it was a miracle that Manu 3, also Spurs were against all odds Dallas was 3-1, 3-2,3-3 and our guys failed at home.
LOL!!!!!! you think +/- means nothing? well go back to shooting percentages then, If Bon hits the 3 well... hits the 3 numbers dont lie, if he played only during that play then he played good, are you against that?
http://gothicginobili.com/wp-content...1.30.56-AM.png
You think everything is nonsense do you?

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Originally Posted by Mikeanaro

He took his fair share of shots, 24 is a latte, the whole team played worse than Dallas during the whole game it was a miracle that Manu 3, also Spurs were against all odds Dallas was 3-1, 3-2,3-3 and our guys failed at home.
LOL!!!!!! you think +/- means nothing? well go back to shooting percentages then, If Bon hits the 3 well... hits the 3 numbers dont lie, if he played only during that play then he played good, are you against that?
http://gothicginobili.com/wp-content...1.30.56-AM.png
You think everything is nonsense do you?

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truth bomb

THE REAL 2005 FMVP!
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l#advanced::22

The real 2007 MVP
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l#advanced::22

I don't think Manu has had to be benched in the playoffs in favor of his backups so I go with him.

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Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop

I don't think Manu has had to be benched in the playoffs in favor of his backups so I go with him.

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:lol

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Originally Posted by Mikeanaro

He took his fair share of shots, 24 is a latte, the whole team played worse than Dallas during the whole game it was a miracle that Manu 3, also Spurs were against all odds Dallas was 3-1, 3-2,3-3 and our guys failed at home.
LOL!!!!!! you think +/- means nothing? well go back to shooting percentages then, If Bon hits the 3 well... hits the 3 numbers dont lie, if he played only during that play then he played good, are you against that?
http://gothicginobili.com/wp-content...1.30.56-AM.png
You think everything is nonsense do you?

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I'm not disagreeing with your stance about Dallas. Underrated team and we didn't play welll enough to win.

However, Tim was chucking up shots? Did you even watch the game? He was still injured and faced more defensive attention than anyone he's ever played with (including a still elite Robinson). He played a pretty good game, and a great series, despite the +/-, which is an awful stat.

Again, the stat merely reflects the lineup/opposing lineup. It has very little to do with how well the individual played. This is common knowledge. Nobody has ever used it to analyse how well someone played, except for you (and you seem to use it religiously for some reason).

That graph you used shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Those are Net Ratings. That combines lots of other data, and it is taken from a much larger pool of games (often a full season worth of them).

But single-game +/-? You think that means anything? Again, you can shoot 0-30, have 10 turnovers, and be burnt on the defensive end, and still have a positive +/-, if the other four guys on your team are on fire. Likewise, you can shoot 30-30 and dominate, but if your other four teammates miss every FG, your +/- will be a negative.

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Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

truth bomb

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You know, according to +/-, Parker was a about five times better than Kawhi this postseason.

But I bet the +/- numbers are wrong for you know? :rollin

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Originally Posted by T_L_P

I'm not disagreeing with your stance about Dallas. Underrated team and we didn't play welll enough to win.

However, Tim was chucking up shots? Did you even watch the game? He was still injured and faced more defensive attention than anyone he's ever played with (including a still elite Robinson). He played a pretty good game, and a great series, despite the +/-, which is an awful stat.

Again, the stat merely reflects the lineup/opposing lineup. It has very little to do with how well the individual played. This is common knowledge. Nobody has ever used it to analyse how well someone played, except for you (and you seem to use it religiously for some reason).

That graph you used shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Those are Net Ratings. That combines lots of other data, and it is taken from a much larger pool of games (often a full season worth of them).

But single-game +/-? You think that means anything? Again, you can shoot 0-30, have 10 turnovers, and be burnt on the defensive end, and still have a positive +/-, if the other four guys on your team are on fire. Likewise, you can shoot 30-30 and dominate, but if your other four teammates miss every FG, your +/- will be a negative.

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Of course it means something, that 0-30 example of yours is ridiculous you will still have a negative impact and your net will be far away from the good guys, and if you shoot 30-30 while dominating your impact will be a HUGE difference vs your teammates how long have you been watching? 2 weeks? its alarming how Porker fans try to reverse any fact trying to drag down other players while ditching data that shows he sucks.
According to guys like you data is useless, subjective ¨eye tests¨ are the measurement stick, were the hell are your subjective eyes when TP is dribbling for hours and killing the offense?

NBA analysts wont use +/- impacts because it could hurt the business they will tell you ¨LOOK WESTBROOK MADE 60 POINTS SHOOTING 10/60, 60 POINTS PEOPLE!¨ ¨JAMES HARDEN MADE 80 SHOOTING 15/90 AND 60 FTA¨ they wont talk about refs helping them and how they kill their teams doing that shit, you think they are gonna kill the cash cow?.
All of you are a lost cause.

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Originally Posted by Mikeanaro

Of course it means something, that 0-30 example of yours is ridiculous you will still have a negative impact and your net will be far away from the good guys, and if you shoot 30-30 while dominating your impact will be a HUGE difference vs your teammates how long have you been watching? 2 weeks? its alarming how Porker fans try to reverse any fact trying to drag down other players while ditching data that shows he sucks.
According to guys like you data is useless, subjective ¨eye tests¨ are the measurement stick, were the hell are your subjective eyes when TP is dribbling for hours and killing the offense?

NBA analysts wont use +/- impacts because it could hurt the business they will tell you ¨LOOK WESTBROOK MADE 60 POINTS SHOOTING 10/60, 60 POINTS PEOPLE!¨ ¨JAMES HARDEN MADE 80 SHOOTING 15/90 AND 60 FTA¨ they wont talk about refs helping them and how they kill their teams doing that shit, you think they are gonna kill the cash cow?.
All of you are a lost cause.

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Again, you are talking Net Ratings, and not single-game +/-.

If the Spurs win by 10 and Parker plays all 48 minutes with a '0' in every stat-line, his +/- for that game will be a +10.

If Duncan plays all 48 minutes and drops a 50/20/10 on perfect shooting, his +/- for that game will be a +10.

That's why the stat sucks. It's about lineups and strength of opponent; not an indicator of an individual's game.

Why do you call me a Parker fan? I hate Tony as a person, and think last season he was among the worst rotation players in the league - and I don't see that changing anytime soon. He's never been the Spurs' best player and often gets overrated because he puts up good raw stats.

OTOH, I think Manu is one of the most effective players ever, and he's far greater than Tony is.

I was really only contesting your point about Duncan chucking. Anyone who watched the Dallas series knows he was killing it. He shot 50%, which is fine for a big-man. It's not Westbrook/Kobe levels which is what you said.

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Originally Posted by T_L_P

Again, you are talking Net Ratings, and not single-game +/-.

If the Spurs win by 10 and Parker plays all 48 minutes with a '0' in every stat-line, his +/- for that game will be a +10.

If Duncan plays all 48 minutes and drops a 50/20/10 on perfect shooting, his +/- for that game will be a +10.

That's why the stat sucks. It's about lineups and strength of opponent; not an indicator of an individual's game.

Why do you call me a Parker fan? I hate Tony as a person, and think last season he was among the worst rotation players in the league - and I don't see that changing anytime soon. He's never been the Spurs' best player and often gets overrated because he puts up good raw stats.

OTOH, I think Manu is one of the most effective players ever, and he's far greater than Tony is.

I was really only contesting your point about Duncan chucking. Anyone who watched the Dallas series knows he was killing it. He shot 50%, which is fine for a big-man. It's not Westbrook/Kobe levels which is what you said.

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The thing is I consider 50% a good percentage when you take 15 shots, but when you take 24 or some high number like that you are giving a lot to the other team too.
Thats why he got a negative impact bigger than Manu and TP even scoring 43 points.
If Parker plays all 48 minutes and gets a +10 it means he moved the ball in a positive way at least, he wont be getting any assists but his impact was positive made the right passes, etc.
If Duncan scores like you said and ends the game with a +10 it means a) other players in his team sucked b) the other team was really good and put some competition.
Its what it is really and it works for every player, thats why Spurs always kept Bon Bon the +/- king.

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Originally Posted by RD2191

Manu shitting all over Porker. :lol

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