cake guy has to make cake for gays - how exactly will this work?

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Originally Posted by MultiTroll

So the gay bakery gets to discriminate against them?

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In that case yes. You especially can't force someone into creating something hateful.

Should be simple to figure this stuff out.

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Originally Posted by Blake

In that case yes. You especially can't force someone into creating something hateful.

Should be simple to figure this stuff out.

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who is the arbiter of what qualifies as hateful

is it possible that a devout christian sees gay marriage as hateful against his religion?

Can a neo nazi make a jewish cake maker to make a cake celebrating the holocaust?

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Originally Posted by Blake

Sure, why not

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Because if the courts are ruling that artisans don't have the right to refuse to create works they don't want to make, then that leaves the issue open to all sorts of things. If someone wants them to make a Trump cake and is willing to pay the cost for it, then how does that baker have any more right to refuse it than he does a request for a cake depicting a same-sex wedding?

Can a religious baker refuse to make a cake with the Flying Spaghetti Monster on it?

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Originally Posted by spurraider21

who is the arbiter of what qualifies as hateful

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The court mostly.

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Hate speech is communication that carries no meaning other than the expression of hatred for some group, especially in circumstances in which the communication is likely to provoke violence. It is an incitement to hatred primarily against a group of persons defined in terms of race, ethnicity, national origin, gender, religion, sexual orientation, and the like. Hate speech can be any form of expression regarded as offensive to racial, ethnic and religious groups and other discrete minorities or to women

http://definitions.uslegal.com/h/hate-speech/

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is it possible that a devout christian sees gay marriage as hateful against his religion?

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Sure. That's why he got sued.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Because if the courts are ruling that artisans don't have the right to refuse to create works they don't want to make, then that leaves the issue open to all sorts of things.

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Slippery. Slope.

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If someone wants them to make a Trump cake and is willing to pay the cost for it, then how does that baker have any more right to refuse it than he does a request for a cake depicting a same-sex wedding?

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Because he's not in the business of making Trump cakes. He's in the business of making wedding cakes. He denied the gays a wedding cake.

Why is this hard to get?

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Can a religious baker refuse to make a cake with the Flying Spaghetti Monster on it?

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A Christian baker can refuse to make a Muslim cake. He can't refuse service to Muslims for being Muslim.

Get it?

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Originally Posted by Blake

Slippery. Slope.

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There's nothing fallacious about what I said. If you have an issue with it, you should elaborate on what that is.

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Because he's not in the business of making Trump cakes. He's in the business of making wedding cakes. He denied the gays a wedding cake.

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Who are you talking about? Do you mean this specific guy? If so, I don't know and don't even really care. As I said in my first post in this thread, if the cakes are generic, I can at least understand why people would want the law to step in. If the cakes are customized, that's a different issue. My gripe would be about a law or ruling NOT making that distinction, not really with the general law saying that gay people can buy a cake if it's for sale and they are willing to pay for it.

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A Christian baker can refuse to make a Muslim cake. He can't refuse service to Muslims for being Muslim.

Get it?

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It's as I said above. Generic cake, I can understand the law (while still disagreeing with it). Custom cake, I think it has farther reaching effects than people are understanding.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Because if the courts are ruling that artisans don't have the right to refuse to create works they don't want to make, then that leaves the issue open to all sorts of things. If someone wants them to make a Trump cake and is willing to pay the cost for it, then how does that baker have any more right to refuse it than he does a request for a cake depicting a same-sex wedding?

Can a religious baker refuse to make a cake with the Flying Spaghetti Monster on it?

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Det slippery slope into Trump cakes and frat party penis cakes

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"Logicians call the*slippery slope*a classiclogical fallacy. There’s no reason to reject doing one thing, they say, just because it might open the door for some undesirable extremes; permitting “A” does not suspend our ability to say 'but not B' or 'certainly not Z' down the line. Indeed, given the endless parade of imagined horribles one could conjure up for any policy decision, the slippery slope can easily become an argument for doing nothing at all. Yet act we do; as George Will once noted, 'All politics takes place on a slippery slope.'.......

http://grammar.about.com/od/rs/g/slipslopeterm.htm

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It's nearly text book.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

I can at least understand why people would want the law to step in. If the cakes are customized, that's a different issue. My gripe would be about a law or ruling NOT making that distinction, not really with the general law saying that gay people can buy a cake if it's for sale and they are willing to pay for it.



It's as I said above. Generic cake, I can understand the law (while still disagreeing with it). Custom cake, I think it has farther reaching effects than people are understanding.

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They wanted a wedding cake. Have you ever seen a wedding cake?

I don't know how you would make a gay cake vs a straight cake. The only difference might be two grooms on the top, I guess. Maybe a rainbow?

I don't understand how people don't understand how backwards our society would be if we allowed businesses open to the general public to discriminate based on physical characteristics. It's bad enough people are still ignorant about being born gay vs it being a choice.

Crazy.

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Originally Posted by Blake

Det slippery slope into Trump cakes and frat party penis cakes



It's nearly text book.

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How is a Trump cake an extreme?

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Originally Posted by Blake

They wanted a wedding cake. Have you ever seen a wedding cake?

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https://www.google.com/search?q=wedd...+wedding+cakes

Yeah, so it's not like they aren't customizable.

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I don't know how you would make a gay cake vs a straight cake. The only difference might be two grooms on the top, I guess. Maybe a rainbow?

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That does count as being different.

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I don't understand how people don't understand how backwards our society would be if we allowed businesses open to the general public to discriminate based on physical characteristics.

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It's not the government's job to stop people from being "backward". That's why the Duck Dynasty guys have a show. It's there to protect the rights and interests of its citizens. And that doesn't just mean its gay citizens.

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t's bad enough people are still ignorant about being born gay vs it being a choice.

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This really has no factor in discrimination.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

How is a Trump cake an extreme?

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Because what kind of bakery would it be without an assorted collection of fine Trump cakes

Bakery should make the cake, but shouldn't be forced to make it themed for a homosexual couple in any way.

Would make the issue clear if we could see the cake the fudgpackers wanted, tbh

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Originally Posted by Chinook

https://www.google.com/search?q=wedd...+wedding+cakes

Yeah, so it's not like they aren't customizable.

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Point out the ones made for heterosexual weddings.

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Originally Posted by Blake

A Christian baker can refuse to make a Muslim cake. He can't refuse service to Muslims for being Muslim.

Get it?

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So a Christian baker can refuse to make a Muslim cake but he can't refuse to make a gay cake? Arbitrary cutoffs are arbitrary

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Originally Posted by spurraider21

So a Christian baker can refuse to make a Muslim cake but he can't refuse to make a gay cake? Arbitrary cutoffs are arbitrary

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Nope. Re-read or I'll repeat if you need it

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Originally Posted by Chinook

That does count as being different.

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was that an issue here?

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It's not the government's job to stop people from being "backward". That's why the Duck Dynasty guys have a show. It's there to protect the rights and interests of its citizens. And that doesn't just mean its gay citizens.

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once you open your doors to welcome the general public in, your individual rights are greatly reduced. You don't get to do whatever you want.

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This really has no factor in discrimination.

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I don't care. It's my own opinion.

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Originally Posted by Blake

It's nearly text book.

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Do you know what stare decisis is?

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Originally Posted by Blake

Point out the ones made for heterosexual weddings.

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I mean, you're right that the depictions of a male and female character could still be for a gay couple. I don't think that does any work, though, since I have been talking about the cakes themselves and not the clients.

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Originally Posted by Blake

was that an issue here?

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I don't know what you mean by "here". I've said before that my comment was talking about the court ruling and the laws, not about any particular instance.

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once you open your doors to welcome the general public in, your individual rights are greatly reduced. You don't get to do whatever you want.

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Yes, that's a basic tenant of all moral and social philosophy. Somehow, you think that the "right" for gay people to get wedding cakes is somehow inalienable, though. We have systems for determining which rights take precedence over others, and intellectually, the cake-makers should have the superseding right in these cases. That the government is flipping the script is always cause for scrutiny, as it's only supposed to do so in extreme circumstances.

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I don't care. It's my own opinion.

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It's fine that you think being gay isn't a choice. I agree with you. But it's not true that you think that being born with a characteristic is the only factor in determining what's discrimination, since you used Muslims as an example in this thread, and religion is obviously not something one is born with.

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Originally Posted by vy65

Do you know what stare decisis is?

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Yeah

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Originally Posted by Blake

Yeah

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Good. Does that change your opinions on the "slippery slope."

If not, why?

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Somehow, you think that the "right" for gay people to get wedding cakes is somehow inalienable, though.

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This. I didn't realize that constitutional due process protections safeguard life, liberty, and gay cakes.

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Originally Posted by Blake

Because what kind of bakery would it be without an assorted collection of fine Trump cakes

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Most probably don't have tumeric- or coriander-flavored cakes, either. I don't think anyone considers that an ending worthy of a slippery-slope, though.

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Originally Posted by vy65

Good. Does that change your opinions on the "slippery slope."

If not, why?

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There's no precedent for anyone being forced to make a Trump cake. Or a frat penis cake.